Full Presentation of my debate on Kurukshetra War dating

[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Dear Satyavratas !

I am attaching my full presentation used during my debate with Sri Nilesh Oak. My sincere appreciations to the event organizers Sri Harikiran Vadhlamani ji, Rithwik ji and Sri Nilesh ji for this event. Let it trigger a fruitful discussion regarding the dating of Mahabharata and the larger problem of the Bharatiya Veda-Itihasa-Pauranic Chronology.

My notes on the presentation:-

Attached pdf is the full presentation of my debate with Sri Nilesh Oak on the date of Kurukshetra War on 02-02-2020 (the date is a palindrome :-! the first global palindrome day in 909 years, the old one being 11-11-1111)

I have introduced the theory and concept of habitable zones of Kurukshetra War dates based on genealogy,  technology evolution,  dwaraka excavations & bathymetry,  Sarasvati dry up,  monsoons and climatology, IE linguistics and language evolution, miscellaneous other minor factors, and then plotted the dates proposed by various MBH chronology researchers including Vartak,  Nilesh Oak,  Vedveer Arya,  Holey, Kota Venkatachalam,  Jayasree Saranathen,  Deiter  Koch,  Saroja Bala,  Sadananda,  Narhari  Achar,  Manish Pandit, Balakrishna,  Mohan Gupta,  Ashok Bhatnagar,  Ramamoorthy,  Iyengar,  PR Sarkar,  VS Dube and BB Lal in time axis,  to see how they fall within these habitable zones or stays out of them.

Result is for all to see. Except for Nilesh and Vartaks 5561 BCE,  other dates falls safely within one or other habitable zones.

I also insist,  an archao astronomy date,  however great it is,  cannot be the final word about the date of kurukshetra war. It should align closely with genealogical,  technological,   archaeological,  bathymetrical,  climatological and linguistic data.

If you go by the chronology revision suggested by Sri Vedveer Arya (changing sheet anchors like the date of Buddha Nirvana 1382 years further deep into the past from 483 BCE to 1865 BCE), then all the dates in the range of 2500 BCE to 3200 BCE (Vedveer, Holey, Saroja Bala, Pt. Kota Venkatachalam, Traditional date, Jayasree, Sadananda, Achar, Manish Pandit, Balakrishna) gets in to the habitable zone defined by the genealogical analysis; if not,  the dates between 1000 BCE to 2000 BCE (Mohan Gupta, Ashok Bhatnagar, K Ramamurthy, RN Iyengar, PR Sarkar, and more or less Deiter Koch) gets into the habitable zone defined by the genealogical analysis. 

In the habitable zone defined by technology evolution (horses, wheels, chariots), dates  later to 4000 BCE like that of Manish Pandit and Achar gets in, when the sole criteria is horse domestication, but when light weight war chariots with spoked wheel, driven by war horses is considered, the dates between 1000 BCE to 1800 BCE (or if stretched up to 2000 BCE) only make sense based on the current archaeological excavation data. The dates of Bhatnagar, Ramamurthy, Iyenger, Koch and Mohan Gupta is falling in this habitable zone.

In the habitable zone defined by bhathymetric studies and Dwaraka underwater excavations, dates likeIyengar (1478 BCE) upto that of  Achar (3067 BCE) are inside going by the date of excavated pottery. But putting more stringent conditions like the submergence event of 1500 BCE and dating of the city state at 1500 BCE, only dates close to 1500 BCE like Iyenger and Ramamurthy makes sense.

The climatology (including Sarasvati drying up and monsoon changes) habitable zone admits dates of Mohan Gupta, Bhatnagar, Ramamurthy and Iyenger inside. 

IE  lingustics and language evolution based habitable zone admits all dates except the dates of Nilesh / Vartak placed at 5561 BCE.

This is my unbiased, dispassionate and sincere analysis based on the currently available information at my hand in the multi-disciplinary fields, that I am familiar with. Experts in each respective field can indeed add on or correct my assumptions.

Going forward, it will be good to form two groups of Mahabharata chronologists:- one group following the chronology revision suggested by Sri Vedveer Arya. These dates are centered around 3000 BCE. The Traditional Date (3138 BCE) also falls here, so do dates of Achar, Manish and other friends. 

The other group can ignore or refute this chronology revision. The dates between 2000 BCE to 1000 BCE falls in this group. The dates of friends like Mohan Gupta, Ashok Bhatnagar and Ramamurthy falls in this group.

The first group, I call for simplicity the 3K group. The second group, for simplicity I call as 1K2K group. I wish the 3K group debate and discuss among themselves and arrive at the best date. Similarly the 1K2K group can debate and discuss among themselves and arrive at the best date. There can also be inter-group debates to refute or accept the chronology revision suggested by Sri VedVeer Arya.

My view is that we will either get a well refined date in the 3K group or a well refined date in the 1K2K group as the final date of Kurukshetra War. 

This way we can all be party to solve the greatest civilization-riddle of our current times, by putting a strong date for the Kurukshetra war vetted and fire-tested by multi-disciplinary studies, for our future generations, and for our children to study in their school books.

Regards 

Jijith 

Former Scientist ISRO

Creative Director Wipro

DharmaDigital,  AncientVoice 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Jijith Ji,

     I have attached a 1957 paper by R. Morton Smith on Puranic genealogies.  It may be of interest to you.  Best,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Abhinav Agarwal]

Very informative presentation, Jijith!

Regards,

Abhinav

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[Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri]

Dear Shri Agarwal,

You seem to have considered several aspects of dating except Astronomical data, both embedded in Mahabharata text as well as other sources. This at once gives confirmation on the date of Kurukshetra war as well as confirm our puranas as source of genealogy. 

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Many thanks Abhinav ji

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[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Thank you Abhinav ji

[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Dear Satyakamkshi Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri ji

Arriving at a date for the war,  based on "astronomical data, both embedded in Mahabharata text as well as other sources"  is precisely what is meant by archao astronomical analysis.

Did you fail to understand that every mahabharata date I have plotted in all the slides ARE the final results of archao astronomy based researches of multiple researchers (except a few like Dr BB Lal)? Could you please read the slides in detail,  especially the slide number 14 where the archao astronomy based date of Nilesh Oak's at 5561 BC is refuted? 

So basically i am taking the final results of the kind of analysis you referred and corroberating those results and showing you how each of these dates are positioned with respect to the other disciplines in order to subject them with the test of fire.

Kindly notice that my name is Jijith Nadumuri Ravi,  not Agarwal.

Regards

Jijith

[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Dear Manish ji

Pranamam!

Your date is a strong contenter,  especially now strengthened by Vedeer's proposed chronology revision based on changing the sheet anchors like the date of Buddha Nirvana by pushing it into past by more than a millennium. 

The way forward for you will be to convince those researchers who are not accepting this chronology revision. Veedver will have to explain how such a large descrpency in chronology survived till date. The push back is not decades or centuries but more than a millennium so that it will be resisted with a lot of hard data,  discussions and debate. 

This way,  making 3067 bce date fall into the genealogy habitable zone can be taken care of,  by the works of Vedveer Arya based on his success in proving it convincingly.

Other tasks will be to push the 3067 bce date deep into the heart of the habitable zones defined by technology evolution,  bathymetry + dwaraka excavation and climatology + sarasvaty dry up. Your date is not as far,  as that of 5561 BCE date, from any of these habitable zones. So the difficulty to do this is lesser in comparison to attempt to push 5561 bce into these habitable zones. Your date is already inside the habitable zone defined by IE linguistics unlike the 5561 date which is out and far away. 

Or conversely,  the task will be to extend these zones based on arguments or future insights to embrace the 3067 bce date.

Thanks and Warm Regards

Jijith

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020, 16:49 Manish Pandit, <mm.p...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pranaam and Dhanyawaad.

Excellent presentation Jijith ji.

We are proposing 1807BCE for Buddha Nirvana and 3067BCE for the Mahabharata war. That as you say will bring 3067BCE into the habitable zone of dates.

Well done and take care.

Sincerely 

Manish

Dr Manish Pandit

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[Jijith Nadumuri Ravi]

Many  Thanks Mahadev ji

-This message is sent from a mobile phone. Kindly ignore typos -

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi 
Former Scientist ISRO 
Founder: Dharma Digital,  Ancientvoice 

DharmaDigital envisages Dharmic Revival through Holograms, Virtual Worlds etc.

AncientVoice is the world's largest and world's 1st Dharmic Wiki portal for Veda Itihasa Puranas with 23700 plus pages.
   

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[David and Nancy Reigle]

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

Thank you for your continued thoughtfulness and kindness in posting articles such as this one. Probably many of us benefit from them. Wondering if you happen to also have Part II of this article? Part II was published in Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. 77, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1957), pp. 266-280. Hope this request does not cause you to go to any trouble over it.

Best regards,

David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear David,

     Here is the part II of Morton Smith's article. Best,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[David and Nancy Reigle]

Dear Madhav Ji,

Thank you so much for sending this second part of the article.

Best regards,

David Reigle

Colorado, U.S.A.

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