Actuality, author's take and characters' thought/speak

[Narayan Prasad]

Ref: Scion (English tr. by Dr R. Ranganath Prasad of the original Kannada novel वंशवृक्ष), p.5

Dear scholars,
      namaste.
      Under the reference mentioned above, the translator says:

'*******************************************
"Also typical of the literary narrative of the author is synthesis of actuality, author's take and characters' thought/speak in the same sentence"
'*******************************************
There is a footnote under the word "speak" in the above line:
"The three types of literary expressions distinctly defined in Indian poetics."

I am a novice in this field. Could anybody give any proper reference regarding the three types of literary expressions which are distinctly defined in Indian poetics?

Thanks and regards
Narayan Prasad

[Sivasenani Nori]

Sir

There are different triads in Alankara Sastra. One is the notion that literature teaches dharma through prabhu sammitaa, mitra sammitaa and kaantaa sammitaa. For instance, Mammata in Kavya Prakasa gives the purpose of writing poetry as:

काव्यं यशसे अर्थकृते व्यवहारविदे शिवेतरक्षतये। 

सद्यः परनिर्वृतये कान्तासम्मिततयोपदेशयुजे॥

Veda is the example of prabhu sammitaa, where direct injunctions are seen, like the orders of a king.

Puranas are the example of mitra sammitaa, where the message is direct, but with examples and explanations, much like how a friend would explain.

Kavya is the example of kaanta sammitaa, where the message is indirect and very subtle, hidden in a very endearing story, description or depiction, like how a woman would speak. One example teachers give is how a woman would merely mention that a neighbour got a new ornament, say a waist belt or a diamond necklace, and how it is very beautiful. No actual request is made for one, but the longing way in which the ornament is described is all that is required to be communicated. 

The other famous triad is the triad of modes of denotation of meaning: abhidaa, lakshaNaa, and vyaJjanaa. The first is direct denotation; the second is secondary denotation; and the third, suggestion. When vyaGgyaartha is the main, such a kavya is called dhvani kaavya. I don't think that this is the intended triad here.

In the classical Alankara Sastra, starting from Natya Sastra, upto Rasagangadhara, I do not recall any differentiation of literary expressions differentiated as actuality (itihaasa?), author's take and characters' thought/speak. So, the reference must be to the three sammitaas first mentioned.

Regards

Senani

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[Ganesh R]

NamaskaaraH,

I think the translator Sri. Ranganath Prasad is referring to svatahsambhavi, kavipraudhokti and kavinibaddha-praudhokti. For more details one may go to the classic text dhvanyaaloka of Anandavardhana.

With regards

Ganesh

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[K S Kannan]

Dr. Ganesh's "I think" makes me think:

It is hardly useful to translate technical terms of one language into another language

without ensuring that the idea is properly conveyed. And the idea gets properly conveyed 

only if such translations are standardised ones and are reputed to be so, too.

Do we have to have three triples of conjectures for just three words?

Whatever be the case, whenever technical words are translated,

it should be made a norm to give the original technical word within brackets 

- in its first occurrence at least (&/or a glossary).

Else, the spirit of the original gets missed:

the translator may have the satisfaction of "giving",

but the reader will not have the satisfaction of "receiving".

What is the point in communication 

where there is only transmission but no reception?

"artha-gatyartho hi śabda-prayogaḥ!"

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor (Retd.), IIT-Madras.

Member, Advisory Board, "Prof. A K Singh AURO Chair of Indic Studies", AURO University, Surat.
Member, Expert Committee for Review of Criticism of Indian Knowledge Traditions, Central Sanskrit University (under MoE, GoI), Ganganath Jha Campus, Prayagraj.
Adjunct Faculty, Dept of Heritage Science and Technology, IIT Hyderabad.

Nominated Member, Academic Committee, Kavi Kula Guru Kalidasa University, Ramtek.
Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.
Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.
Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

https://sites.google.com/view/kskannan

[Narayan Prasad]

Thank you very much Dr Sivasenani Nori for explaining the various triads in Alankara Sastra.

Regards

Narayan Prasad

[Narayan Prasad]

>

> I think the translator Sri. Ranganath Prasad is referring to svatahsambhavi, kavipraudhokti and kavinibaddha-praudhokti. 

>For more details one may go to the classic text dhvanyaaloka of Anandavardhana.

>

Thank you so much Dr Ganesh for the exact triad and reference in Indian poetics.

Regards

Narayan Prasad

[Narayan Prasad]

Thank you Prof. Kannan for your response to my query.

>

>Whatever be the case, whenever technical words are translated,

>it should be made a norm to give the original technical word within brackets 

>- in its first occurrence at least (&/or a glossary).

>

BTW, can we call special dishes of South India, (like इडली, दोसा, which are well-known as such in North India,) as technical terms? For example, in case of the novel of Dr Bhyrappa, I came across the items चक्कुली (चकली in Maharashtra), तंबिट्टु , कज्जाय, कोडुबले. I have mentioned these items, as they are, in translation, but explained in the footnotes the ingredients and how they are prepared.

Regards

Narayan Prasad

[K S Kannan]

Dear Sri Narayan Prasad,

Whatever special word is language-specific, and more broadly, culture-specific

- is to be generally deemed a technical term.

True, words like yoga and guru, and mantra and karma

have now made their appearance in standard English dictionaries too

- forfeiting thereby their italic flavour and prestige.

Nevertheless, if the intended audience is not aptly equipped, or what is often quite likely, 

if the dictionaries are missing out on key nuances of the terms,

such words ought to be treated on par with technical terms.

These are my sūtra-s.

Regards

KSKannan

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[Narayan Prasad]

>

>Whatever special word is language-specific, and more broadly, culture-specific

>- is to be generally deemed a technical term.

> .....

>These are my sūtra-s.

Thank you very much for your confirmation and clarification.

Regards

Narayan Prasad

[BVK Sastry (G-S-Pop)]

Namaste KSK, Narayana Prasad,

 

I am curious  to have your  views on the following, for my better understanding of ‘Word- Floating -Across Languages’: A Key issue in A I – generated Machine Translation, more so, for Movie subtitles, impacting Language- Social Standing.

 

1. What is your preferred Samskruth term for < technical term =  Whatever special word is language-specific, and more broadly, culture-specific >.  

 

My suggested term ‘Vyaavaharika (if use is local-culture); Paaribhashika (if Technical discipline specific).  

This is a known technicality in Samskruth studies for  millennia.

 

Some terms to contemplate: What is the ‘title of  text’ conveying ?

 

Vedanta-Paribhashaa, Meemaamsaa Paribhashaa, Paribhashendu-shekhara.

 

Some links to explore:

 

Paribhasha Samhita – Book of Definitions – Madhyasth Darshan – Jeevan Vidya. Existence is Coexistence (madhyasth-darshan.info)

Paribhasha, Paribhāsa, Paribhāṣā: 21 definitions (wisdomlib.org)

 

2. On  

 < ….  True, words like yoga and guru, and mantra and karma .. have now made their appearance in standard English dictionaries too  forfeiting thereby their italic flavour and prestige. Nevertheless, if the intended audience is not aptly equipped, or what is often quite likely, if the dictionaries are missing out on key nuances of the terms, such words ought to be treated on par with technical terms.  >.

 

a) The ‘English dictionaries’ get reviewed- revised- expansively including newer term almost every year.

       History and development of dictionaries | Britannica    

      https://www.britannica.com/summary/dictionary

 

     If one uses a 21^st century English dictionary to decode a 18^th century English Document, the

     outcome can be disastrous !  The word-entries in 18^th century English dictionary is less than the

     entries in 21^st century edition of English Dictionary.

 

     When Monier-Williams added 40,000 ( L- classified words) in to Sanskrit –English Dictionary,

     as a  lexicographer, he induced ENGLISH MODEL ON SANSKRIT; and was partially adapting

     and deviating from ‘KOSHA (AMARA) Technicality. Internally, post 17^th century ‘word entry

     dictionaries like Shabda-kalpadruma, Vachaspatyam’ have bridged the ‘Vocabulary learning gap

     and confusion that learners face in distinguishing ‘‘Vyaavaharika (use in local-culture context);  and

       Paaribhashika (Technical discipline specific usage).   

 

    Academic linguists have  muddled this issue under ‘Word- Movements across cultures, loan

    words, Word- degenerations over time-use- context’ per their preferences.  One example is the

    understanding of first part of the word- ‘Bhaga-vaan’; The whole word misunderstanding

    rampant on ‘Linga- Yoni’.

 

   This problem is not limited to Samskrutham !  Kannada lexicons have ‘ lock stock barrel’

   accepted ‘English words’ as official Kannada – Social vocabulary!  Example:  ‘Sorry- kan-ri’,

   Police, Telephone, Computer, School, television….

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Sivasenani Nori]

Namaste Sir.

That certainly is one possibility, but the words "literary narrative", and "synthesis ... in the same sentence" made me not consider dhvani at all, much less arthaSaktimUlaka dhvani, or its sub-categories (which are variously two, three, four or twelve, depending on the Alankaarika). The choice of English words ("actuality" for svataH saMbhavI, "author's take" for kavi prauDhokti and 'character's thought/speak for kavi-nibabbha-vaktR-praudDhoki''), removing any reference to the poetical elements (ukti vs prauDhokti) made it even more difficult to think that dhvani is the topic of discussion.While as Prof. Kannan observed, using the actual technical words would have been so much better, your ability to see through all this haze is amazing, as always.

Narayan Prasad mahodaya

You may refer to 2.24 of Dhvanyaloka to know more about these concepts.

Regards

Senani

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[Narayan Prasad]

Namaste.

I received reply by Shri Ranganath Prasad as personal email on 29 Dec. (day before yesterday). The relevant portion is reproduced, in case somebody else is interested.

'*******************************************************

The three  types of literary expressions distinctly defined in Indian Poetics are स्वतःसम्भवि, कविप्रौढोक्ति, व कविनिबद्धप्रौढोक्ति।  स्वतःसम्भवि is as it is in the cosmic scheme of things. This is clear in the oft said phrase, 'It is not the whole truth.' Maybe  स्वतःसम्भवि is not easily defined or explained. कविप्रौढोक्ति is the author's grasp of स्वतःसम्भवि| कविनिबद्धप्रौढोक्ति is what the author gets the characters to speak. The author here cannot be said to be endorsing what the characters say or feel, for they are in keeping with the characteristic, cultural, social, economic attributes of the characters. Evidently, in काव्य (verse or prose) or novel/poetry, there will both कविप्रौढोक्ति and कविनिबद्धप्रौढोक्ति। In a drama/movie there will just be  कविनिबद्धप्रौढोक्ति| I

'*******************************************************
Regards

Narayan Prasad

On Wednesday, 4 September 2024 at 08:08:45 UTC+5:30 Ganesh R wrote:

NamaskaaraH,

I think the translator Sri. Ranganath Prasad is referring to svatahsambhavi, kavipraudhokti and kavinibaddha-praudhokti. For more details one may go to the classic text dhvanyaaloka of Anandavardhana.

With regards

Ganesh