The meaning of the word 'Mishra'

[V Subrahmanian]

Namaste

The word/name 'Mishra' is known to have existed as early as over a millennium. Vachaspati Mishra, the author of the Bhamati, Mandana Mishra of Brahma siddhi, are two popular ones.  In the Dvaita tradition, a much later name, Vanamali Mishra, is also heard.  

What is the significance of that name? Does it connote a particular family/sect? 

I have heard that the name 'Gauda' as it occurs in Gaudapada is that of the region: gauda deśa.

warm regards

subrahmanian.v    

[sunil bhattacharjya]

To my knowledge Mishra also means children born out of wedlock between brahmin father and kshatriya mother. The subsequent generations keep using that family name. However there could be other meanings of the word Mishra as the family name, as well..

Regards,

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[rniyengar]

There is a famous Mishra in the Vishishtadvaita tradition also! The teacher of Yaamunaachaarya was Raama Mishra also known as MaNakkaal Nambi in Tamil. 

RNI

[Sivasenani Nori]

To the extent I know it is an honorific, used after the names of learned people. It is often used a second time after somebody named Misra, as in अमुक् मिश्रमिश्रैः यदुक्तम् ...

If one is looking for a Yaugikaartha, the miSraNa would be of different Saastras, which would would give the ability to discriminate. SishTas are learned in more than one Saastra (for instance, see Mahabhashyam under 6.3.109 पृषोदरादीनि यथोपदिष्टम्); in DharmaSaastra works, Judges are often required to be learned in more than one Saastra.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

--

[V Subrahmanian]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

To the extent I know it is an honorific, used after the names of learned people. It is often used a second time after somebody named Misra, as in अमुक् मिश्रमिश्रैः यदुक्तम् ...

If one is looking for a Yaugikaartha, the miSraNa would be of different Saastras, which would would give the ability to discriminate. SishTas are learned in more than one Saastra (for instance, see Mahabhashyam under 6.3.109 पृषोदरादीनि यथोपदिष्टम्); in DharmaSaastra works, Judges are often required to be learned in more than one Saastra.

Namaste 

This is a novel way of looking at the word.  Thanks for that. This meaning gets complete consummation in the case of Sri Vācaspati Mishra whose credentials are explained  by Sri Amalānanda  at the end of his Kalpataru, commenting on the concluding verses of the Bhāmati:

Kalpataru says: Vācaspati Mishra had composed works on the Nyaya, Purvamimamsa, Patanjala Yoga, Sankhya and the Vedanta: 

warm regards

subrahmanian.v

  

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 27 May 2016 21:17:40 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

To my knowledge Mishra also means children born out of wedlock between brahmin father and kshatriya mother. The subsequent generations keep using that family name. However there could be other meanings of the word Mishra as the family name, as well..

Dr. Bhattacharjya, 

Are you out of your mind? Do you not think you should corroborate your scandalous and scurrilous claims regarding the Misra community with an authentic source? The list is not new to your fancy theories but the above mail has crossed all limits of decency. 

Nityananda 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Saturday, 28 May 2016 06:37:54 UTC+5:30, rniyengar wrote:

There is a famous Mishra in the Vishishtadvaita tradition also! The teacher of Yaamunaachaarya was Raama Mishra also known as MaNakkaal Nambi in Tamil. 

RNI

There is also Śrīvatsāṅka Miśra.

The root for the word ‘मिश्र’ in the धातुपाठ is ‘मिश्र सम्पर्के’ (DP 1921). As per मेदिनीकोष, the word ‘सम्पर्क’ is used in the senses of ‘मेलक’ and ‘रति’ (सम्पर्को मेलके रतौ as per). The word ‘मेलक’ denotes ‘combining together’ or ‘uniting’, as the अमरकोष confirms – मेलके सङ्गसङ्गमौ. The word ‘रति’ can mean either ‘प्रीति’ (pleasure or delight) or ‘रमण’ (bodily union).

Now coming back to ‘मिश्र’. The derivation is ‘मिश्रयति इति मिश्रः’, with the suffix अच् (पचाद्यच्) ordained in the sense of agent (कर्ता) by the rule नन्दिग्रहिपचादिभ्यो ल्युणिन्यचः (3.1.134), taking पचादि as आकृतिगण (काशिका confirms this by saying ‘पचादिराकृतिगणः’). Or one can take ‘अज्विधिः सर्वधातुभ्यः’. In either case, the suffix would be in the sense of ‘agent’ (कर्ता) and not object (‘कर्म’). This derivation ‘मिश्रयति इति मिश्रः’ is confirmed by the explanation of the word मिश्रेय in the अमरकोष by the व्याख्यासुधा commentary.

So ‘मिश्र’ by itself means ‘one who combines or unites’. This is the literal यौगिक meaning, and all other meanings (‘combined’, ‘honourable/best’, or ‘a kind of elephant’) are रूढि. That the word ‘मिश्र’ is used in कर्म also is confirmed by मुण्डमिश्रश्लक्ष्णलवणव्रतवस्त्रहलकलकृततूस्तेभ्यो णिच् (3.1.21) which carries over कर्मणः from 3.1.15 to get [कर्मणः] मिश्रात् [करणे वा] णिच्, मिश्रं करोति = मिश्रयति. However, when used used in the sense of object (i.e. in the meaning ‘combined’), it usually occurs as the उत्तरपद of a compound as per the वाचस्पत्यम् – ‘संयुते उत्तरपदस्थः’, for example in usages like गुडेन मिश्रः गुडमिश्रः (समास by पूर्वसदृशसमोनार्थकलहनिपुणमिश्रश्लक्ष्णैः, A 2.1.31). 

The only meaning that makes sense for the मिश्र title or family name is ‘honourable/best’ which is by रूढि and not योग. The शब्दकल्पद्रुम and वाचस्पत्य list this sense as ‘श्रेष्ठः’ and ‘श्रेष्ठार्थे’ respectively. The people called मिश्र or the मिश्र community must have been considered among the foremost in learning and knowledge. While there is no explicit need to look for यौगिकार्थ in this sense, but if one wants to then the proposal by Sh. N Sivasenani makes sense.

PS: Sh. Sivasenani cites पृषोदरादीनि यथोपदिष्टम्. This is not needed as from the word मिश्र is the standard पचाद्यन्त form with मिश्र् (मिश्र सम्पर्के) + अच् and does not exhibit any वर्णागम, वर्णविपर्यय, वर्णविकृति, or वर्णलोप which are the characteristics associated with पृषोदरादि: भवेद्वर्णागमाद्धंसः सिंहो वर्णविपर्ययात्, गूढोत्मा वर्णविकृतेर्वर्णलोपात्पृषोदरः. 

[Bijoy Misra]

There is another Misra lurking!

He was told Misra came to be known by the group who removed the preference to a specific Veda or other traditions.

I saw another post to this in this thread.

--

[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

On Sat, May 28, 2016 at 10:07 PM, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

The list is not new to your fancy theories

​Yes, I also noted that there were many claims without support of tested proof. I would have accepted this as valid explanation ​if some proof was presented from smRRiti-s and that too while mentioning context. Otherwise, we have to accept that Dr is using his quality to imagine quite well. In that case, I'll like to ignore him again.

श्रीमल्ललितालालितः
www.lalitaalaalitah.com

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Mishraji,

I do not have any derogatory feeling for kshatriyas like you have .Lord Krishna. Lord Ram, Lord Buddha were all Kshatriyas and so was king Janak. Were they lower than any brahmin? Hanuman Ramayana says that Mandodari told Ravana that she was a kshatriya woman and she wanted to fight against Lord Ram in that war but Ravana did not permit. Any pious Hindu take the name of the panchakanyas including mahasati Mandodari.

I read long back that the children born out of samparka of brahman father and kshatiya mother is called Mishra. That has nothing to do with the scholarship of the Mishra descendents. To prove that none of the forefathers of Vacaspati Mishra.married a kshatriya woman you will have to trace his family history, so the example of Vacaspati Mishta's scholarship  in this case is irrelevant.  Further, I will not take the trouble of searchng for the proof of what I read, as what is the surety that my reply will be approved by the moderator. If moderatorji asks me to search for the proof of what I wrote I will definitely try to do that.

skb

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

When I found a post from this person in this thread, I expected a decent expression such as " I did not want to offend anyone through my post. But I apologise if I did inadvertently..." or something like that. But I never expected that he would blame it on the moderator to have allowed such a post. In any scholarly discussion, evidences are expected to be provided for the approval of all the scholarly audience and not on demand from the moderator.

Where is the question of respect for Kshatriyas here?

This is a question of an implausible sociological process being proposed as a theory to an august scholarly audience.

There are many such hearsay popular gossip 'theories' of community origins and many such folk etymologies. Scholars do not take them as sound academic theories. 

vichitramaana ulaghattil paluvidhamaana nakshatrangal: varieties of stars in this interestingly strange universe !  

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

Dear Dr. Bhattacharjya

On Sunday, 29 May 2016 08:56:29 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Dear Mishraji,

I do not have any derogatory feeling for kshatriyas like you have .Lord Krishna. Lord Ram, Lord Buddha were all Kshatriyas and so was king Janak. Were they lower than any brahmin? Hanuman Ramayana says that Mandodari told Ravana that she was a kshatriya woman and she wanted to fight against Lord Ram in that war but Ravana did not permit. Any pious Hindu take the name of the panchakanyas including mahasati Mandodari.

What gave you the impression that I have a derogatory feeling for Kṣatriya-s? Where did I say anything that gave such an impression? My objection was to your position that Miśra-s were descendents of children born out of wedlock. You very well know that the phrase ‘born out of wedlock’ means ‘an illegitimate child’, or ‘a bastard’. This is a scandalous claim, especially when no proof of it exists. 

Do you not think that you should be more careful while making an uncorroborated claim that a community descended from bastards? I take it personally as I belong to that community. You come from Bengal, where Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born Viśvambhara Miśra, as the son of Jagannātha Miśra. Are you implying his forefathers were bastards? The lack of sensitivity is sickening, 

 

I read long back that the children born out of samparka of brahman father and kshatiya mother is called Mishra. That has nothing to do with the scholarship of the Mishra descendents. To prove that none of the forefathers of Vacaspati Mishra.married a kshatriya woman you will have to trace his family history, so the example of Vacaspati Mishta's scholarship  in this case is irrelevant. 

In your first post you claimed Miśra-s were descendents of children born out of marriage. Now you are contradicting yourself by proposing a possibility that one of Vācaspati Miśra’s forefathers married a Kṣatriya women. Please stick to one stand.

 

Further, I will not take the trouble of searchng for the proof of what I read, as what is the surety that my reply will be approved by the moderator. If moderatorji asks me to search for the proof of what I wrote I will definitely try to do that.

I do not think the citation of any source will be disapproved by the moderator. Please search for the proof and share when you have it.

Thanks, Nityananda 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Nityanandaji,

May be I should have used the phrase"within  wedlock" in place of "out of wedlock" . May be my English was faulty as "out of wedlock" means to me as "as consequence of".  I did not mean any illegitimate marriage. I can understand the reason for your anger and hope you understand now in what sense I wrote.

skb

--

[Satish Kumar Dogra]

When I read the post asking for the origin of the name Mishra, I felt an amount of surprise, because I thought it was odd to be tracing the origins of what appears to be a caste-name with little relevance to the type of discussions one finds on this Forum. The explanation as mixture-of-castes brought more surprise, as it rang bells of a joke I had read long ago. The explanation sounded odd in a Forum that has all along maintained its dignity, decorum and seriousness of intellectual pursuit.

I request all members of the Forum to close this discussion, so that we could get back to business again. Flippancy and mutual acrimony are completely out-of-place on this Forum.

Let us forgive and forget and bury the hatchet, as the age-old saying goes.

Regards,

Dogra

============================================
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My contact number:
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--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The good intensions of the thread initiator AadaraNIya Subrahmanianji were clearly evident from his response to a beautiful explanation from AadaraNIya Sivasenaniji. There is scholarship in those posts and the etymological post by AadaraNIya Nityanandji. Such discussions are not out of place here.

AadaraNIya Sunil Bhattacharjyaji could have avoided the insensitive and unscholarly post that does not match his erudition of great depth and width.

I agree that we should discontinue the discussion in such unwarranted directions.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 May 2016 10:33:59 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Dear Nityanandaji,

May be I should have used the phrase"within  wedlock" in place of "out of wedlock" . May be my English was faulty as "out of wedlock" means to me as "as consequence of".  I did not mean any illegitimate marriage. I can understand the reason for your anger and hope you understand now in what sense I wrote.

skb

Dear Dr. Bhattacharjya

Not ‘may be’, it certainly was faulty. The phrase ‘born out of wedlock’ means ‘born of unmarried parents’ as per Concise Oxford English Dictionary (Eleventh Edition, see snapshot). This specific meaning is confirmed by Merriam Webster, Collins, and Longman dictionaries. The phrase has to be used very selectively and carefully. 

Now that you have clarified you did not mean ‘born illegitimately’ and your use of the phrase ‘born out of wedlock’ was due to faulty English, I take back my remarks on insensitivity. 

Still, the claim that those born to Kṣatriya mothers and Brāhmaṇa fathers were called Miśra-s needs to be corroborated. There was actually a Sanskrit term for children born to Kṣatriya mothers and Brāhmaṇa fathers: ‘mūrdhavasikta’ (मूर्धावसिक्त). The term ‘miśra’ is not used in Sanskrit in this sense. 

Thanks, Nityananda 

[Venkatesh Murthy]

It is not correct to say this. Mandana Mishra was a very orthodox Mimamsaka and debated with Adi Sankaracharya. This is showing Mishra is orthodox and pure Brahmin only. That same Mandana Mishra became Sanyasi Sureshwara. In those days only pure Brahmins were allowed to Sanyasa.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Mishraji,

I still have one doubt and as you are good in English you may be able to clarify the following.

When I say that I bowed to the swamiji out of respect for him, would it mean that I have disrespect for the swamiji?

Thanks,

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Venkatesh Murthyji,

This may not be so straightforward. Vedavyasa born of a Kaivarta mother was considered a bahmin due to petrilineal consideration yet Vidura was not a brahimn though Vedavyasa was his biological father.

[Amba Kulkarni]

Bhattacharyaji,

Out of Wedlock is an idiom.

If you google, you will find the following:

Idiom: out of wedlock. Of parents not legally married to each other: born out of wedlock.

--  Amba Kulkarni

--

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Indian Institute of Advanced Study,
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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Thanks Ambaji.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Sunday, 29 May 2016 19:25:55 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Dear Mishraji,

I still have one doubt and as you are good in English you may be able to clarify the following.

When I say that I bowed to the swamiji out of respect for him, would it mean that I have disrespect for the swamiji?

Thanks,

Dear Dr. Bhattacharjya

The phrase ‘out of respect’ means ‘because of respect’. Other similar phrases are ‘out of interest/pity/curiosity’ which mean ‘because of interest/ pity/curiosity’. While I could not find this sense in the Concise Oxford English Dictionary, the online version of Macmillan Dictionary confirms this sense: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/out-of-interest-respect-pity-etc 

However, the phrase ‘out of wedlock’ means ‘of unmarried parents’. So the sentence ‘He was born out of wedlock’ means ‘His parents were not married when he was born’. This example is also from the online version of Macmillan Dictionary: http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/wedlock

English is indeed a funny language, as Mr. Bacchan describes in Namak Halaal (1982): “You see sir I can talk English, I can walk English, I can laugh English because English is a very funny Language. Bhairon becomes Baron and Baron becomes Bhairon, because their minds are very narrow.” This comic tour de force is included on page 118 of Chutnefying English: The Phenomenon of Hinglish by Rita Kothari and Rupert Snell (Penguin Books India, 2011, ISBN 9780143416395).

Thanks, Nityananda

[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste,

I vaguely remember the opinion of Kanchi Mahaperiyava in the collection of His discourses "The voice of Jagatguru".  In telugu, it consists of some 10-12 volumes called "Jagatguru Bodhalu".  In one of the volumes, Swamigal explains the origins of Pathak, Dwivedi, Trivedi, Chaubey, Jha, Mishra etc. 

Sri.Siva Senani Ji echoed what Paramacharya explained.  They didn't stick to "one shAkha" of veda and studied multiple veda shAkhAs of sukla & yajurveda.  Owing to their proficiency in multiple veda shAkhAs, the honorary title "mishra" was given. 

I can't quote the exact words of Paramacharya as I don't have those books now with me.

regs,
sriram 

[Ganesh R]

Yes, me too remember to have read so in the writings of Sri paramaachaarya.

I also recollect a reference to Mishra in the medeavel play (prahasana) lTakamElakaM. Here punkaTamishra, a character speaks of it's name Mishra as one who practices both the karma and unsanskrit kaaNDa-s : vyaakhyaayatE'smaabhiH karmameemaamsaa brwhmameemaamsaa ca. Katoti darshanadvayajnaanaad catamaran mishraaH. (P.36, chaukhambaa edition, vidyaabhavan geanthamaalaa series number : 87, Varanasi,  1962)

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

No doubt that the  Kanchi Paramacharya was a great person both in knowledge and in attainments and my ajashra pranaams to Him. But it helps to know where in the shastras it is mentioned that the term "Mishra is only an honorific term.

Regards,

skb

[Ganesh R]

The total number volumes of Sri paramaachaarya's lectures  are seven in the original and the explanation to the word Mishra, perhaps,  is in the third volume.

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Nityanandaji,

After receiving Ambaji's mail I also looked up and found that there is divided opinion on the phrase. "Out of wedlock" . It appears that probably it is better to describe children born of unmarried parents as children born outside the wedlock rather than calling that out of wedlock., The use of the phrase "Out of wedlock" to describe such children  seems to be a later development in this funny language.. That is probably an effort to de-stigmatize such children to the extent possible.

Regards,

skb

[Nityanand Misra]

On Monday, 30 May 2016 11:42:55 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Dear Nityanandaji,

After receiving Ambaji's mail I also looked up and found that there is divided opinion on the phrase. "Out of wedlock" .

What are the sources you referred and what are the different opinions on the phrase? 

 

It appears that probably it is better to describe children born of unmarried parents as children born outside the wedlock rather than calling that out of wedlock.,

Why would it be better?  

 

The use of the phrase "Out of wedlock" to describe such children  seems to be a later development in this funny language..

 

That is probably an effort to de-stigmatize such children to the extent possible.

Is there any evidence to show that the phrase "out of wedlock" is a later development? And that it is an effort to de-stigmatize?  

[Anand Hudli]

Dear scholars,

There is a book called "ब्राह्मणोत्पत्ति दर्पण" by Makkhan Lal Mishra, Neeta Publishers, New Delhi, 2006. I have cursorily glanced through the pages and found that the book contains descriptions of North Indian Brahmana communities such as the Pancha Gauda brahmanas, the Maithila Brahmanas, the Kanyakubja Brahmanas, Mathur Chaturvedi Brahmans, and others, besides South Indian Brahamana communities. It appears the surname Mishra appears in many of these Brahmana communities. I did not notice any reference to Brahmin-Kshatriya marriages in connection with the Mishra surname.

Anand

[ajit.gargeshwari]

As you know he is trying to maintain a view which has no factual evidence. The other responses were very informative. We need to further look into those texts mentioned by scholars

[K S Kannan]

High veneration conveyed by  -miśra.

2 famous citations from literature:

1. Bhāsa : evam ārya-miśrān vijñāpayāmi

 - at the commencement of several of his plays.

2. Kālidāsa : kva te śārṅgarava-miśrāḥ?

- Sage Kaṇva referring to his own disciple with high regard.

[V Subrahmanian]

Thanks for these invaluable references, Dr. Kannan ji.  I think both the usages predate the popular real life persons we have mentioned in this discussion.

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Monday, 30 May 2016 11:58:56 UTC+5:30, Anand Hudli wrote:

Dear scholars,

There is a book called "ब्राह्मणोत्पत्ति दर्पण" by Makkhan Lal Mishra, Neeta Publishers, New Delhi, 2006. I have cursorily glanced through the pages and found that the book contains descriptions of North Indian Brahmana communities such as the Pancha Gauda brahmanas, the Maithila Brahmanas, the Kanyakubja Brahmanas, Mathur Chaturvedi Brahmans, and others, besides South Indian Brahamana communities. It appears the surname Mishra appears in many of these Brahmana communities. I did not notice any reference to Brahmin-Kshatriya marriages in connection with the Mishra surname.

Anand

It does, the surname is commonly found in Uttar Pradesh (not in western UP, but in central and more even more so in eastern UP), Bihar, Jharkhand, Orissa, and also some parts of Bengal. There are Miśra families settled in parts of Rajasthan too, but they are rare. Apart from Kānyakubja, Maithila, and Utkala Brahmins, the surname is common among Sarayūpārīṇa Brahmins also. For more on the gotra and śākhā of the Miśra families among Sarayūpārīṇa Brahmins, one may refer Panḍita Rājanārāyaṇa Śāstrī (1998). Sarayūpārīṇa Brāhmaṇa Vaṃśāvalī (11th edition). Varanasi: Master Kheladilal Sankataprasad Sanskrit Library.

[Nityanand Misra]

To add, in Odisha, the surname Bhaṭṭamiśra is also found.

 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Ajitji,

I am hurt by your following sweeping statement

"As you know he is trying to maintain a view which has no factual evidence. The other responses were very informative. We need to further look into those texts mentioned by scholars"

Earlier when there was a query from Shri  Nityanand Mishraji regarding where I found the mention of Jinasena's  work "Harivamsa" in relation to the times of Lord Mahavira, I wrote a reply and quoted from  the source I referred to. Unfortunately my reply did not appear in BVP. Even before that I wrote another reply to a mail from Prof. Korada Subramanyamji in connection with the discussion regarding the meaning of the word "Nischala", and that mail too did not appear. It is for this  reason I am wary that If I try to locate the source which said that the term "Mishra" is connected with the children of a brahmin father and a kshatriya mother, it will be a waste of my efforts if that mail dos not appear in the BVP. So I want to avoid of tracing the source I read years ago and which the other scholars of BVP had been unable to trace so far, unless moderatorji assures me that I can go ahead with the tracing the source, which I read years ago.

Regards,

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 8:17 PM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Ajitji,

I am hurt by your following sweeping statement

"As you know he is trying to maintain a view which has no factual evidence. The other responses were very informative. We need to further look into those texts mentioned by scholars"

Earlier when there was a query from Shri  Nityanand Mishraji regarding where I found the mention of Jinasena's  work "Harivamsa" in relation to the times of Lord Mahavira, I wrote a reply and quoted from  the source I referred to. Unfortunately my reply did not appear in BVP. Even before that I wrote another reply to a mail from Prof. Korada Subramanyamji in connection with the discussion regarding the meaning of the word "Nischala", and that mail too did not appear. It is for this  reason I am wary that If I try to locate the source which said that the term "Mishra" is connected with the children of a brahmin father and a kshatriya mother, it will be a waste of my efforts if that mail dos not appear in the BVP. So I want to avoid of tracing the source I read years ago and which the other scholars of BVP had been unable to trace so far, unless moderatorji assures me that I can go ahead with the tracing the source, which I read years ago.

​Dear Sunilji,

I have no objections to any posts. Please trace the source. It would have been better if you had traced the source first and then written. Please re-post your earlier post​ mention of Jinasena's  work "Harivamsa" in relation to the times of Lord Mahavira. So Please don't say your post did not appear all posts will appear.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Ajitji,

Thank you for the assurance that I can go ahead with locating the source of the origin of the word. 'Mishra". Kindly bear with me if I take some time to retrieve that source, I wrote what I read about the origin of the word "Mishra", though I did not have the reference ready in hand, with the hope that there wll be many scholars, who might already be aware of it and they may supplement what I wrote.

As advised, I am separately reposting my post in connection with the times of Lord Mahavira.

Regards

--

[kamalesh pathak]

Anandji is the book brAhmaNottpatti darpan or brAhmaNottpatti mArtanDa?

[Anand Hudli]

On Tuesday, May 31, 2016 at 6:11:27 PM UTC+5:30, kamal wrote:

Anandji is the book brAhmaNottpatti darpan or brAhmaNottpatti mArtanDa?

It is  "ब्राह्मणोत्पत्ति दर्पण", written in Hindi with references to Sanskrit texts including the Brahmanotpattimartand, which is available from DLI with the barcode 5990010116778.

Anand

[L Srinivas]

On the honorific aspect of the name or name suffix miśra, we have this line, 'āryamiśrāḥ pramāṇam' in the opening lines of Kalidasa's mālavikāgnimitram. Here the writer Sri MR Kale appends a note explicating the use of the plural - pūjye miśrapadaṃ nityaṃ bahuvacanāntam; marīcimiśrairdakṣeṇa iti viṣṇupurāṇāt. This note itself appears to be a quote from the commentary to mālatīmādhavam.

Clearly, miśra here appears to be an honorific to the names of certain rather distinguished brahmanas.

My 2c,

Lakshmi Srinivas

On Sunday, May 29, 2016 at 1:07:30 AM UTC-4, Satish Kumar Dogra wrote:

When I read the post asking for the origin of the name Mishra, I felt an amount of surprise, because I thought it was odd to be tracing the origins of what appears to be a caste-name with little relevance to the type of discussions one finds on this Forum. The explanation as mixture-of-castes brought more surprise, as it rang bells of a joke I had read long ago. The explanation sounded odd in a Forum that has all along maintained its dignity, decorum and seriousness of intellectual pursuit.

I request all members of the Forum to close this discussion, so that we could get back to business again. Flippancy and mutual acrimony are completely out-of-place on this Forum.

Let us forgive and forget and bury the hatchet, as the age-old saying goes.

Regards,

Dogra

============================================
Read my websites:
Sanskrit: dograindia.org
English: satishkumardogra.com

Tamil: dogratamil.com

My contact number:
+91 98400 93148

On Sun, May 29, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr. Bhattacharjya

On Sunday, 29 May 2016 08:56:29 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Dear Mishraji,

I do not have any derogatory feeling for kshatriyas like you have .Lord Krishna. Lord Ram, Lord Buddha were all Kshatriyas and so was king Janak. Were they lower than any brahmin? Hanuman Ramayana says that Mandodari told Ravana that she was a kshatriya woman and she wanted to fight against Lord Ram in that war but Ravana did not permit. Any pious Hindu take the name of the panchakanyas including mahasati Mandodari.

What gave you the impression that I have a derogatory feeling for Kṣatriya-s? Where did I say anything that gave such an impression? My objection was to your position that Miśra-s were descendents of children born out of wedlock. You very well know that the phrase ‘born out of wedlock’ means ‘an illegitimate child’, or ‘a bastard’. This is a scandalous claim, especially when no proof of it exists. 

Do you not think that you should be more careful while making an uncorroborated claim that a community descended from bastards? I take it personally as I belong to that community. You come from Bengal, where Caitanya Mahāprabhu was born Viśvambhara Miśra, as the son of Jagannātha Miśra. Are you implying his forefathers were bastards? The lack of sensitivity is sickening, 

 

I read long back that the children born out of samparka of brahman father and kshatiya mother is called Mishra. That has nothing to do with the scholarship of the Mishra descendents. To prove that none of the forefathers of Vacaspati Mishra.married a kshatriya woman you will have to trace his family history, so the example of Vacaspati Mishta's scholarship  in this case is irrelevant. 

In your first post you claimed Miśra-s were descendents of children born out of marriage. Now you are contradicting yourself by proposing a possibility that one of Vācaspati Miśra’s forefathers married a Kṣatriya women. Please stick to one stand.

 

Further, I will not take the trouble of searchng for the proof of what I read, as what is the surety that my reply will be approved by the moderator. If moderatorji asks me to search for the proof of what I wrote I will definitely try to do that.

I do not think the citation of any source will be disapproved by the moderator. Please search for the proof and share when you have it.

Thanks, Nityananda 

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I have a question on this surname Misra /Mishra that experts who thought /worked on the issue should be able to answer. The usages quoted from the ancient works usually have the word as akaaraanta pumlinga, whereas the contemporary pronunciation of the word seems to be aakaaraanta, e.g.  'mis'raajee' . How can this be explained? 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 3 June 2016 10:42:19 UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:

I have a question on this surname Misra /Mishra that experts who thought /worked on the issue should be able to answer. The usages quoted from the ancient works usually have the word as akaaraanta pumlinga, whereas the contemporary pronunciation of the word seems to be aakaaraanta, e.g.  'mis'raajee' . How can this be explained? 

The pronunciation is influenced by mother tongue, where there is either schwa syncope or schwa elongation at the end of the word. The situation is not very different from that of गुप्त/गुप्ता, a surname found in vaiśya-s. Most commonly, people pronounce my last name as मिश्रा and would address me or my father as मिश्राजी. However, it is not uncommon to find learned people, especially in my home state of Uttar Pradesh, who are careful enough to pronounce the last name as मिश्र and address a person as मिश्रजी. When I sign my name in Hindi, I use मिश्र (and so does my father). Similarly, most people would pronounce गुप्ता/गुप्ताजी but we do have exceptions like the Hindi poet मैथिलीशरण गुप्त who is credited as गुप्त (and not गुप्ता) almost everywhere. 

The audience also matters. The refined Hindi speaking (or Sanskrit-aware) audience which is accustomed to and familiar with the pronunciation मिश्र. When I am speaking amidst such people (भद्रलोक), I pronounce my last name as मिश्र while introducing myself. When I am speaking amidst a common audience or an English speaking audience unfamiliar with the original title and the nuances of pronunciation, I pronounce it as मिश्रा. It is inconsistent, but when in Rome, .....

Another difference is the use of 'h' while transcribing the name in English. The spelling ‘Mishra’ is more common and the spelling ‘Misra’ is less common, but both are the transliterations of the same last name. 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The analogy of Gupt-Guptaa is useful.

Can it be conjectured that this has a British influence ?

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I thought of the English influence because we have yogaa , shivaa etc.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 3 June 2016 13:59:49 UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:

I thought of the English influence because we have yogaa , shivaa etc.

On Fri, Jun 3, 2016 at 1:55 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

The analogy of Gupt-Guptaa is useful.

Can it be conjectured that this has a British influence ?

It could be English influence, but even in the eastern languages of Avadhī and Bhojapurī the terminal schwa is elongated in some words. So ‘rāma’ becomes ‘rāmā’, as in the refrain ‘rāmā’ or ‘ho rāmā’ present in every line of a song in the Caitī genre of folk music, e.g. one may listen to Pandit Channulal Mishra’s rendition of “kaise sajana ghara ja’ibe ho rāmā.” 

[L Srinivas]

Phonologically in modern Indian languages, I suppose, these are just reflexes of the underlying Sanskrit saṃvṛta 'a' at the pada boundary.


Lakshmi Srinivas

[V Subrahmanian]

Namaste

I would like to have a clarification from the learned members here.  It is well known that the surname 'Rao' and ('Bāi' for females) is used by both Brahmins and non-Brahmins, both in the South and in the North (Maharashtra, for example).  I would like to know whether a similar practice exists for the surname 'Mishra' in those regions where this name is commonly used.

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> It could be English influence, but even in the eastern languages of Avadhī and Bhojapurī the terminal schwa is elongated in some words. So ‘rāma’ becomes ‘rāmā’, as in the refrain ‘rāmā’ or ‘ho rāmā’ present in every line of a song in the Caitī genre of folk music, e.g. one may listen to Pandit Channulal Mishra’s rendition of “kaise sajana ghara ja’ibe ho rāmā.” 

------ This is interesting. Is this ‘rāmā’ sambodhana prathamaa or prathamaa? 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Similar was the discussion बालाजी sometime ago.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Do you mean the deerghaanta in the name of a male deity?

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Similar was the discussion बालाजी sometime ago.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

In Telugu, the sambodhana prathamaa of Raama (RaamuDu) being Raamaa! O Raamaa! (in the colloquial form) is usual. Though grammars of classical Telugu mention hrasvaanta as the norm in sambodhana form, there are evidences from the lakshyas of classical Telugu writers that the deerghaanta form was prevalent as sambodhana in the spoken form.

There are names of poetesses of the Nayaka period in the forms such as Rangaajee, Krishnaajee etc.

Names of Maratha kings have forms such as S'ivaajee, S'ambhaajee, S'ahaajee etc.   

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Forgot to mention Appaajee in which appa is the native non-sanskritic word, which turned into deerghaanta as part of the word appaajee.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On 04-Jun-2016 11:37 am, "Nagaraj Paturi" <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Do you mean the deerghaanta in the name of a male deity?
>

The deity was male and some suggested female association. बाला being popular as दीर्घान्त suggesting लक्ष्मी lord of Laxmi. Some suggested बालकृष्ण - बाल pronounced as बाला-जी.

 

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

Appa is somewhat like a form of a more global word. Consider appa, abbA, babbA, bAbA, Papa, all having similar meanings.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I don't think we have any non-south-Indian usage of appa.  

On Sat, Jun 4, 2016 at 1:23 PM, उज्ज्वल राजपूत <ujjwal....@gmail.com> wrote:

Appa is somewhat like a form of a more global word. Consider appa, abbA, babbA, bAbA, Papa, all having similar meanings.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

This issue of Baalaajee was almost resolved : 1. That it is an arvaacheena north Indian usage 2. Most probably a Rajashani usage 3. Most probably a consequence of Hathi ram baba math administration 4. Most probably a word used in the sense of Vallabha or Prabhu in general, in reference to several different deities including Hanuman, here applied to Sri Venkateswara .

Now, here in this thread, the focus is on the deerghaanta form of Mishr as Mishraa /Misraa.

Trying to see if there are similar forms so that we may arrive at a rule.

 

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[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

To my understanding, the focus should be on the word "Mišra",which happens to be a Sanskrit word with a meaning, rather than on the word "Misra"? Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

Is there any historical association of the great rishi Gautama, with the word "Mišra"?

Regards,

[Nityanand Misra]

On Saturday, 4 June 2016 19:44:10 UTC+5:30, Gitarthi wrote:

Namaste,

To my understanding, the focus should be on the word "Mišra",which happens to be a Sanskrit word with a meaning, rather than on the word "Misra"? Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

I do not think anybody said the two were different words. I only said that the spellings Misra and Mishra are both used to transliterate the family name in English. 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:39:58 UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:

Namaste

I would like to have a clarification from the learned members here.  It is well known that the surname 'Rao' and ('Bāi' for females) is used by both Brahmins and non-Brahmins, both in the South and in the North (Maharashtra, for example).  I would like to know whether a similar practice exists for the surname 'Mishra' in those regions where this name is commonly used.

regards

subrahmanian.v 

To the best of my information, the family name Mishra is found in Brahmins alone. I have not come across any non-Brahmin person or family using Mishra as their last name.

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, 3 June 2016 17:39:58 UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:

Namaste

I would like to have a clarification from the learned members here.  It is well known that the surname 'Rao' and ('Bāi' for females) is used by both Brahmins and non-Brahmins, both in the South and in the North (Maharashtra, for example).  I would like to know whether a similar practice exists for the surname 'Mishra' in those regions where this name is commonly used.

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Saturday, 4 June 2016 10:40:00 UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:

> It could be English influence, but even in the eastern languages of Avadhī and Bhojapurī the terminal schwa is elongated in some words. So ‘rāma’ becomes ‘rāmā’, as in the refrain ‘rāmā’ or ‘ho rāmā’ present in every line of a song in the Caitī genre of folk music, e.g. one may listen to Pandit Channulal Mishra’s rendition of “kaise sajana ghara ja’ibe ho rāmā.” 

------ This is interesting. Is this ‘rāmā’ sambodhana prathamaa or prathamaa? 

In all चैती songs, the refrain ‘rāmā’ or ‘ho rāmā’ is vocative (sambodhana). 

In the Avadhi of रामचरितमानस one finds the use of रामा in nominative at the end of many अर्धालीs, for example 

1.198.06 चारिउ शील रूप गुन धामा। तदपि अधिक सुखसागर रामा॥ (nominative)

1.212.02 अनुज सहित प्रभु कीन्ह प्रनामा। बहु प्रकार सुख पायउ रामा॥ (nominative)

1.281.02 करु परितोष मोर संग्रामा। नाहिं त छाड़ु कहाउब रामा॥ (accusative)

1.286.05 जनक कीन्ह कौशिकहिं प्रनामा। प्रभु प्रसाद धनु भंजेउ रामा॥ (nominative)

1.308.07 भरत सहानुज कीन्ह प्रनामा। लिए उठाइ लाइ उर रामा॥ (nominative)

2.087.03 लखन सचिव सिय कीन्ह प्रनामा। सबहि सहित सुख पायउ रामा॥ (nominative)

2.183.06 अरिहुक अनभल कीन्ह न रामा। मैं शिशु सेवक जद्यपि बामा॥ (nominative)

2.225.07 देखि करहिं सब दंड प्रनामा। कहि जय जानकि जीवन रामा॥ (nominative)

2.319.07 जथा जोग करि बिनय प्रनामा। बिदा किए सब सानुज रामा॥ (nominative)

3.008.02 जात रहेउँ बिरंचि के धामा। सुनेउँ स्रवन बन ऐहैं रामा॥ (nominative)

3.027.16 लछिमन कर प्रथमहि लै नामा। पाछे सुमिरेसि मन महँ रामा॥ (accusative)

4.007.29 कोसलेश सुत लछिमन रामा। कालहु जीति सकहिं संग्रामा॥ (nominative)

6.035.06 जगदातमा प्रानपति रामा। तासु बिमुख किमि लह बिश्रामा॥ (nominative)

7.006.08 एहि बिधि सबहिं सुखी करि रामा। आगे चले शील गुन धामा॥ (nominative)

7.019.03 बार बार कर दंड प्रनामा। मन अस रहन कहहिं मोहि रामा॥ (nominative)

7.072.03 सोइ सच्चिदानंद घन रामा। अज बिग्यान रूप गुन धामा॥ (nominative)

7.075.05 इष्टदेव मम बालक रामा। शोभा बपुष कोटि शत कामा॥ (nominative)

On the example of the Maratha king शिवाजी which Prof. Paturi mentioned, I am also reminded of शिव becoming शिवा in Braja, e.g. in this kavitta from the चण्डीचरित्र of Guru Gobind Singh where it is used in the vocative:

देहि शिवा बर मोहि इहै शुभ कर्मन ते कबहूँ न टरौं

न डरौं अरि सौं जब जाय लड़ौं निश्चय कर अपनी जीत करौं

PS: निश्चय कर अपनी जीत करौं from this verse is the motto of the Sikh Regiment of the Indian Army.

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

Namaste.

The data supplied by Sri Nityananda points towards a very deep linguistic principle of daivika:

Vocative can substitute for nominative and accusative in a sentence. Though I anticipate the accusative substitution having a far greater frequency than the nominative-substituion. 

[V Subrahmanian]

Thanks for the reply.  

subrahmanian.v 

[Anand Hudli]

Many North Indian names end in "आ", for example Sharma, Varma, Chopra, Mehra, Mehta, Arora, etc. Could this be the reason, words ending in "अ", such as Gupta, Shukla, Mishra, are also "coerced" into similar spelling?

Anand

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>Many North Indian names end in "आ", for example Sharma, Varma, Chopra, Mehra, Mehta, Arora, etc. Could this be the reason, words ending in "अ", such as Gupta, Shukla, Mishra, are also "coerced" into similar spelling?

---- Yes, that's a great possibility. Better than "coerced", there is a word used in linguistics called "analogy" . Analogy is the reason behind many linguistic changes.