The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
V Subrahmanian
Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Bijoy Misra
sunil bhattacharjya
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Nagaraj Paturi
Venkatesh Murthy
का इयं बाला?
Sampath Kumar
ᐧGood Luck SK { सॊऽहं हंसः परमहंसः సోsహం హంసః పరమహంసః}
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Subrahmanyam V
Dr.V.Subrahmanyam
Deputy Director
Sanskrit Academy
(Recognized and funded by Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan, New Delhi)
Osmania University
Hyderabad - 500 007
Phone : +91 98480 94890
Email : vsupa...@gmail.com
Dr.Raghavendra.Bhat
Venkata Sriram
Very hilarious comparison....especially with bagalamukhi.
First of all, that book is not considered to be authentic even though published by the Samsthan of Pithapuram. All sorts of hypothetical and fancy stories are there in the book.
As far as guru-charitra is concerned, the authentic one was written in kannada by Saraswathi Gangadhara which was later translated into sanskrit by Paramahamsa Parivraja Sri.Vasudevananda Saraswathi Ji (alias Tembe Maharaj).
That said, the surnames of telugu smaartha families bearing "malladi" and "sripada" are the descendants of Sripada Srivallabha. Other than this, authentic information cannot be found.
regs,
sriram
Kalicharan Tuvij
Consider two words: बालाजी and रामाजी.
जी is honorific. Also, बाला and रामा both are in vocative.
Both बाल and राम, fundamentally mean: "male"
So बालाजी (as well as रामाजी) means:
"He"
(with a capital h)
Of course that would be Lord Vishnu here.
The actual accents - how people down South here - pronounce बालाजी supports what I said.
The moral of the story:
a) Sanskrit lost accents.
b) Sanskrit lost varied use of vocative.
c) Tradition is therefore, as an authority, higher than a loukika bhAShA, and shouldn't be doubted so easily.
ramchander deekonda
Venkata Sriram
Venkata Sriram
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:23:10 PM UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:
Nagaraj Paturi
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Hnbhat B.R.
On 06-Feb-2016 4:07 pm, "Kalicharan Tuvij" <kalich...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> नमस्ते,
>
> Consider two words: बालाजी and रामाजी.
> जी is honorific. Also, बाला and रामा both are in vocative.
>
I agree with जी is honorific name, but रामा and बाला are not vocative jn Sanskrit.
Totally it is a pet name popular in Andhra for like Venkatesha and the etymology is differently offerred and for Balaji is not given in Sanskrit dictionaries.
Probably both have little to do with Sanskrit etymology and Sanskritized Telugu names. The same bogspot remarks "balaji" is mostly recent name. In Kannada, he is called तिम्मप्प. On the same line balaji means Lord of Lakshmi as the blogger gives.
ramchander deekonda
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:23:10 PM UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:
Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Anand Hudli
प्राप सर्पगिरिं राजन् दैवयोगेन कर्मणा।
ते राजानस्तत्र तीर्थे गत्वा कपिलसंज्ञके॥
स्नात्वा भक्तिसमायुक्ताः वपनं चक्रुरादरात्।
माधवः स्वयमप्येत्य वापयामास शिरः।।
पार्वणानि प्रकुर्वन्तः तत्र राजन् क्षितीश्वराः।
पिण्डानि च सुसंहृष्टाः श्राद्धीयानि ददुस्तदा॥
प्रथमोऽध्यायः २०२-२०४
On Saturday, February 6, 2016 at 10:02:40 PM UTC+5:30, ramchander deekonda wrote:
sunil bhattacharjya
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Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Jagannatha s
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Jagannatha s
Jagannatha s
V Subrahmanian
Kalicharan Tuvij
ramchander deekonda
Respected Scholars,
I have come across this critical review of a scholarly investigative book. Those who are interested in the subject may read this book. It is available online.
Regards,
Ramchander Deekonda
Dr. K. JAMANADAS PROVES TIRUPATI TEMPLE AS A BUDDHIST SHRINE
Introduction by Prof. Dr. M. D. Nalawade,
M.A., B.Ed., LL. B., Ph. D.,
Ex- Registrar,
Retd. Professor and Head of History Dept. Pune University,
The book by K. Jamanadas "Tirupati Balaji was a Buddhist Shrine" has potential credibility to create controversies unknown to historical writing and the Hindu common folks who flock to worship Tirupati Balaji as one of the supreme deities. It is also a new challenge to indologist at a time when politically imbued scholars are engaged to wash out their hands by proving and disproving claims of Hindus aRnd the Muslims against each other as they did over the issue of Ayodhya Shrines. The writing of K. Jamanadas, but stand to the test of researchers and it surpasses all controversial writings relating to Hindu Muslim difference.
Of course, a reader while going through this book requires to be equipped with relative knowledge of the Vedic forms and symbols of worship and the creation of monkhood, prayers and practice of Buddhist way of religious life. The author does not show at any place, his intention to religiously injure anybody and his presentation is purely of academic nature. Neither he intends to dethrone Tirupati Balaji from his present glory nor his popularity. He also does not make any comment on his devotees and his paraphernalia, he has with him. His research is to find out the truth hidden in the origin, growth and glory and his relation with the common man.
An eminent surgeon turned to be an indologist, K. Jamanadas stands for operational methods in the historical research. His study of Tirupati Balaji is the best in the science of architecture, theology and history. It seems from his book that all the essentially necessary and available sources and historical writings related to Balaji are carefully taken into consideration. Of course, one can not confidently say that a new evidence may not come up hereafter.
Religious life and socio-cultural interactions, so also their amalgamations on philosophical lines as well as in day today life among the people of this ancient land have created numerous problems for separating and identifying a particular set of features in a religious life either of the Buddhist or the Hindus except broad features and major differences. The land is the same and the people are also the same, naturally customs and traditions that they have carried on for ages together can not go far away from each other than they were in their previous religious life. There can not be a total change in the manners and etiquettes by changing and earlier religion. The walks of people in the earlier native religion, then to the Vedic which is named by the foreigners as Hinduism and then to Non-Vedic religions i. e. Buddhism and Jainism are through which this land is traveled and people have common following and practices even contradictory customs and philosophies they have through such livings of them although they learnt many things and have come across many images, idols and symbols of worships. The institution of the Viharas in Buddhist period is the first one of its kind as an institution of Temple which attracted the masses to keep its existence either in the manner the Buddhist have or the manner the Brahmin changed to their convenience to influence the masses.
Originally Brahmins and their religion are centered around the system of the institution of Yadyna. The Yadynas of various types such as Isthi, Pashu, Som, Chayan, Sava, Satra and others, for their selfish motives of seeking food, prestige and power. The very institution of Yadyna is to make commoners by way of traits, traps and tricks for sacrifices, the Brahmins are to loose nothing but in all the circumstances gain and gain much more beyond their demands and needs. This is how the institution of Yadyna works.
Nowhere it is found and no text of the Brahmin literature tells that in pre-Buddhist time the Brahmins are vegetarians. The offerings and oblations offered to gods and goddesses so also, the sacrifices made in the Yadynas are basically originated in the minds and tastes of the Brahmins. As being the non - vegetarians or the flesh eaters Brahmins ask the masses to offer such things to gods and to them also. History, therefore of the vegetarian gods in Hinduism opens a new avenue for fresh research in Indology. In pre-Buddhist times cow was never a pious animal and Brahmins of those days are found very fond of cow flesh. Rigvedas are genuine witnesses for that, and the river Charmnyavati is the best example. There is enough of information to know as to how both of her banks are covered over by skins and her waters are redden by the flesh blood of cows and other animals washed into her waters. The very name of the river Charmnyavati in a Rigveda tells many more things as Charm - means skin. The river banks of this river are used for performing Yadynas and the cows are used in sacrifices on large scale in the Yadynas. The whole delta of the river seems to have seen as how Cow Satra - Killing of cows is carried on and the name, therefore, of the river Charmnyavati in a Rigveda confirms the same.
The institution of Yadyna and sacrificing or killing cows in it is very much vital if it is understood against the agricultural background of those times. In those days no other animals but bullocks are used mostly for tilling the soil. Killing of the cows means no bullocks and no bullocks means no farming, no agricultural products. As a result there is starvation and then submission to enemies or the rulers of the religion. The pre-Buddhist times, therefore, are worse in a regard to atrocities and injustices carried on, on the Peasant communities. Fortunately but lord Buddha understands the grave situation and stops cow sacrifices in the Yadynas and prevents the slaughtering of cows. He, thus becomes the First saviour of cows who preached farmers in ancient times not to offer cows to Brahmins and in the Yadynas. Under the circumstances it is very safe to hold a view that the adoption of cow as a pious one in later days and vegetarian food for gods and to the Brahmins for themselves is one of the greatest achievements of Buddhism, but it has to pay its cost in return of that achievement because the Brahmins adopted their means and methods to attract and lure the farming communities and attack Buddhism. It is thus the Hindus and the academicians have to admit that the creation of non - vegetarian gods is not the creation of the Brahmins. Therefore, it is in vain to trace out the origin of gods who are vegetarians in pre-Buddhist times. Morality and non-violence are never the cardinal principles of Brahminical teaching and religion. They are the Buddhist and they are most unacceptable for the Brahmins in those early days.
The institution of Temple that the Brahmins practice and which exists at 'Tirupati Balaji' and at all the places of the Hindus is origin in Buddhism as K. Jamanadas rightly states that there are a good number of evidences to prove those facts. The walks of people in the ancient times from one sect or religion to another, from native religion to Vedic, Vedic to Non-Vedic religions that is Buddhism and jainism and then back to Mixed- Vedic or Brahminical religion, although, outwardly, have changed them in adopting different religious names and ultimately, the Brahminism to which popularly called as Hinduism, they continued to practice many of the customs and traditions they liked most and were most difficult for them to unalienate. And to their convenience Brahmins have very skillfully converted Buddhists forms of worship and prayers quite in consonance to Brahminical or Hindu ideals. Therefore, separation and identification of many images, idols and temples have become to show exactly that they either belong to Buddhists or Hindus but as Buddhism is made to disappear, Brahmins claimed them, in totality as the Hindus. And the history of Hindu vegetarian gods is certainly hidden in such changes and conversions from Buddhism to Hinduism.
The book is divided into four parts, but the main theme is dealt with in the second and third parts. Part first naturally begins with earlier findings and interpretations about the strife between Buddhism and Brahminism. The mature saintly opinion of Swami Vivekanand that " Buddhism was mainly responsible for stopping or lessening the customs of drinking wine and killing living animals for sacrifice or for food in India" during the dominance and arrogance of the Brahminical period is given at very appropriate instance. "Buddhism and Vaishnavism are not two different things" as is stated by the Great Swami to make clear that, "During the decline of Buddhism in India, Hinduism tool from her a few cardinal tenets of conduct and made them her own, and these have now come to be known as Vaishnavism". The author, not out of vindictive mood, but purely from academic interest collected sources and evidences, that too again from the Hindu saints and scholars to reveal the truth and truth alone as the proud heritage of this ancient land.
Brahmin's usurpation and imitation of the Buddhist customs, traditions and ideals, so also of forms of architecture , art and sculpture are very common and long back indologists and historians like R. G. Bhandarkar and D. D. Kosambi have brought all those thing to light. The sites at Ter, Aihole, Undavali, Ellora, Badrinatha, Ayodhya, Sringeri, Buddha Gaya and other religious important places have ably been shown as how richly influenced by Buddhist religion and culture and Brahmins have adopted them to their tastes to make the masses feel religiously at home as the Hindus. A fresh touch is given to reascertain for the proved facts by R. G. Bhandarkar, R. C. Dhere and others that the temples of Lord Jagannatha of Puri, Vithalla of Pandharpur, Ayyappa of Kerala, Srisailam of Karnataka and many others as they were originally the Buddhist temples.
The real task of discovering Lord Tirupati as the Buddhist Shrine starts in the Second part. The history given of the worship of Vishnu needs to be added by the information of hymns in Rigveda. Max Muller, Muir and Wilson who have well explained the importance of Vishnu and his Three Strides - Trivikrama. In the Purnsha - Sukta of the Yajurvda (1-31-32) has his description. And to collaborate the original concept of his creation and creating his three different images and the necessities of the Brahmins to convert him in appearance like lord Buddha are not unintentional and without any selfish motive. The author has ably proved that such efforts of the Brahmins have expected good results for them to show their superiority over Buddhism. The chapters- Hindu Shilpa Shastra on Vishnu Images, Nature Image of the Lord of Tirumalai, Is the Image of a Female deity, Is the Lord A Harihara Murthi, and the Account In Venkaechala Itihas Mala, are interesting and thought provoking. They make even commoners to think twice whether he is worshiping Buddhist images or Hindu images and what is his place in such a controversies The reference from a book of Shri. Sitapati P., on Shri. Venkateswara is of great importance in support of author's theory on Tirupati Balaji. The reference runs -"The image (of Lord Tirumalai) bears some resemblance to the famous Budhisattva Padmapani painting in cave I of the Ajanta Hills". This statement, is thus, self explanatory to record the attempts.
Part third of the book has debased old challenges of the Hindu claims in South India. How "not only ideals and morals but also temples were taken over by Brahmins" has been aptly shown quoting well known authorities in the field and interpreting the original sources. It is very interesting to know the even Tirtha Yatras are started by the Buddhists and the Brahmins followed them from the Buddhist traditions to forget their earlier Buddhist religion and traditions. The Kalavars and Kalabhras, the names of clans and families quite in resemblance to Kalewar, kalawad or Kalawade and kalbhor, Bhor, Kalmegh and even Kale in Maharashtra are not without their historical roots. The Kalabhras mentioned by the author belonged to Chola country and are the Buddhist, but later on converted to Brahminism.
The claim put forth by the author on Lord Tirupati Balaji as a Buddhist Shrine is based on sound theory and the evidences approved and accepted by the academicians. The fundamental questions which needs to be correctly answered to prove Tirupati Balaji as a Buddhist Shrine have the following points and which are well taken into account--
1. Yet why the attributes of Murthi are not allowed to be discussed openly and publicly?
2. Tirupati has no parivar devatas, his family members as gods. why?
3. And as to why it is the only ek-devata temple in whole of India.?
4. There was no regular worship of this Tirupati till 966 A. D, Why was it?
5.Why the various murthis are not recognised in this temple by their Agamic names?
The term "self manifested" applied to Tirumalai means that the Murthi or idol is existed earlier and it is at that place only. It is found by one Shudra Rangadasa. Then it is resurrected and worshiping it began. Before the Muslims came, Buddhists are the only people who opposed the Brahmins. But no Buddhist King nor Buddhist people are intolerant towards the Brahmins and no evidence is yet produced by any scholar proving that the Buddhists or any Buddhist King made efforts for destroying Brahminical images, idols or places of worship. In fact the Brahmins have done hundreds of such things and they are in reality the enemies of the Buddhists. Hence allowing the Murthi or idol of Tirumalai uncared, then the quarrel over its possession in between the Vaishnavism and Shaivism, all such matter never happens in case of the original idols of Hindu or Brahminical gods. Fortunately till this day this Lord is mistaken and misunderstood as Shiva or Vishnu and as the Vaishnavaites and Shavaites claim him as if he belongs to one of the two, he grows in eminence. In reality the place and the idol are the Buddhist one, which eternally convey the message of well being to all people.
Temple institution is the creation of the Buddhist people and to grab that glory the Brahmins have usurped the Buddhists Temples for their selfish purpose and to attract the masses and then have converted those temples into Hindu forms making necessary changes and alterations. A good number of authorities have proved long ago and many of the authorities on the subject like R. G. Bhandarkar, Percy Brown, G. S. Ghurey, L. M. Joshi, D. D. Kosambi, K. A. N. Sastri, K. R. Vaidyanthan and others have been taken into consideration in the spirit and letters they presented numerous sources and evidences.
So far the story of Lord of Tirumalai stands historically and on the basis of the available sources it is a Buddhist Shrine. Right from its name, fashions and styles, so also customs like the Tonsure, offering of hair and Rathyatra it is all in one - the Buddhist way. Rathayatra is not originated in the Brahminical life due to caste system and observance of untouchability and touch no one those who even from your kin and kith if they are unbathed and the women of their blood also. Under the circumstances Rathayatra tradition is certainly of the Buddhist origin and where ever it is carried on, the places and gods are the Buddhists, without any doubt. The author K. Jamanadas has maintained throughout his work a very high standard of argument and at all instances he placed either the authorities or the evidence in support of his argument and statements.
Although in the socio-cultural life of this country, it introverts all of those who have their origin in this land, to positively come up for better understanding as if it is vicissitude as the times and culture demand. A good lesson will also be derived out of the reading of this thesis for making this land as if of one people with an appeal to both the Hindus and the Muslims to know their best of heritage and noble humane way of life in Buddhism as one people, blessed and guided eternally by that Great, Supreme Lord, Bhagawn Buddha, the Great.
Jagannatha s
Kalicharan Tuvij
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Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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L Srinivas
In the earliest period, most deities of Siva and Vishnu temples in Tamilnadu primarily had Tamil names. When the mahatmyams started getting written, the Tamil name used to be translated to Sanskrit or a brand new name in accordance with local traditions would be given in Sanskrit. The Tamil bhakti hymns to Siva and Vishnu called the 'Tevaram' and 'Divya Prabandham' generally do not have Sanskrit names for the deities at all. The Tamil name of the Deity was generally though not always of the type - Lord of the <place name>. Tirupati is consistently refered to as 'Venkatam' or addressed as 'venkatavaa' - one who resides in Venkatam, or 'tiruvenkatathaan' which means the same. Names such as Srinivasan (for the deity at Tirumala) or Varadarajan (for the deity at Kanchi) are totally new fangled ones. I daresay that these names became popular after the Telugu occupation of Tamilnadu. These names are not seen much among personal names of Vaishnavas in the earlier Chola period either. Even Annamacharya invariably uses local names like 'Venkateshu' for the Lord of Tirumala, as also Tamil names for various saints such as Tirumalai Nambi (not Sri Sailapurna), Tiru Kacchi Nambi (not Sri Kanchi purna), Tondaman Chakravarti (not Pallavaputra chakravarti) . In this scale of usage, 'Balaji' is totally a new fangled name. Most authorities (incl the TTD history) think that this name dates from the period when Maratha presence came to be recorded in the area.
All other speculations that the Deity in Tirumala is Durga, or Kartikeya or Siva or Buddha etc are merely polemical and utterly devoid of merit. The deity in Tirumala has a long history of textual references in Tamil dating back to 'cilappatikaram' (the Song of the Anklet), dated to something like 5th century AD . ( I dont know the authoritative dates for it). In the old Tamil literary works and in Bhakti works, Tirumala (or Venkatam, to give it its old name), has always been described as the shrine of Vishnu.
Hope this helps,
Srini
Anand Hudli
Nagaraj Paturi
V Subrahmanian
Dear Vidwan Ramchander Deekonda,
Annamacharya of 15th century AD, talks of one Tondaman Chakravarti as an important figure in the establishment of the shrine.
Venkatesh Murthy
Suresh Kolichala
1. Tirumala has been a Vishnu shrine at least since the 5th century CE. See the reference in Silappadikaram 11.41-51
vīṅkunī raruvi vēṅkaṭa meṉṉum
ōṅkuyar malaiyat tucci mīmicai
virikatir ñāyiṟun tiṅkaḷum viḷaṅki
irumaruṅ kōṅkiya iṭainilait tāṉattu
miṉṉukkōṭi yuṭuttu viḷaṅkuviṟ pūṇṭu 45
naṉṉiṟa mēkam niṉṟatu pōlap
pakaiyaṇaṅ kāḻiyum pālveṇ caṅkamum
takaipeṟu tāmaraik kaiyi ṉēnti
nalaṅkiḷar āram mārpiṟ pūṇṭu
polampū vāṭaiyiṟ polintu tōṉṟiya 50
ceṅkaṇ neṭiyōṉ niṉṟa vaṇṇamum
I came to see the splendor of red-eyed Vishnu
Holding in his elegant lotus hands
The wheel that augurs death to his enemies
And the milkwhite conch, who appears radiant
In a cloth of golden flowers with a wreath
Of tender blossoms flung over his chest
On the peak of the sublime hill known as Venkatam
Bathed by waterfalls in spate, he lives--
The hill erect as a dark cloud
Robed in lighting and brightened with a rainbow
Its lofty heights washed by the outspread rays
Of the sun and moon. (Cilappatikāram 11.41-51)
a. bhakti koladi vāḍē paramātmuḍu 'He is as much as their devotion is'.b. vāri vāri bhāgyamulu vrāsi vunnavi nosaḷḷa
ramchander deekonda
Nagaraj Paturi
V Subrahmanian
I agree with L. Srinivas and Nagaraj.
3. Annamayya's lyric about various god forms should be taken in a philosophical stride. He is describing the brahman as: "You are just about as much as one imagines you to be -- as the lotus spreads to the limits of the lake". He wrote several such padams, where he describes God to be limited by the imagination of the devotee.
Nagaraj Paturi
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Venkatesh Murthy
Nagaraj Paturi
While on the subject of hrasva and deergha I would like to discuss this:Every language has its own peculiarities. Sanskrit is no exception. In all dravidian language and also in English we have shorts for 'e' and 'o'. Since devanagari does not have this form of vowel, a great number of devanagari-users cannot distinguish between "test" and "taste" between "west' and "waste". and similarly "original" and "oriental". 'Reddy' is pronounced as 'Raiddy' and 'red' is 'raid'Because of this deficiency in the nagari alphabet, pronunciation of such words leads to amusing situations. Once, I heard a gentleman asking a Diagnostic Lab receptionist to get his blood "tasted" instead of "tested". In Hyderabad, we have a locality called West Maredpally, it is invariably pronounced as Waste Maredpally by nagari influenced people. I think specialists who are interested in right pronunciation may please devise some mark to denote short vowels in devanagari.
ramchander deekonda
Sampath Kumar
Good Luck SK { सॊऽहं हंसः परमहंसः సోsహం హంసః పరమహంసః}
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Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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sadasivamurty rani
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, 10 February 2016 12:57 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)
Namaste Nagaraj Paturi
On the point < sifting through Tamil verse to discover at least one Sanskrit word from it > , my question is connecting two specific issues in this thread and the related time lines. The focus on understanding one word in isolation through this debate cannot be limited to a narrow lane and select advancing of linguistic theories.
First point: The Sanskrit quoted text and tradition of Sri Venkateswara / Balaji is around 1400 A.D. ( Earlier posts by Rani Sadashiva murthy)
Second point: The noted verse according to Ramachandra Deekonda’s post, is a document timed to < 5th century CE> and comes from < Silappadikaram 11.41-51>.
The question/s: As the word ‘Sri Venkata’ and ‘Balaji’ appears across almost all south Indian languages as a part of ‘Hari-Dasa-Sahitya’, and draws upon the explanation in puranas of early period, How may we explore the word-osmosis across south Indian languages stretched across a time line spanning almost 1400 years (approximately) ?
The off shoot issues being: What was the perceived linguistic and grammar based relation of <Tadbhava-Tatsama> word –formation and word- conversion rules between Sanskrit and regional languages like Tamil –Telugu- Kannada ? And same for word borrowings across these regional languages ? Do we have an INDIAN – INDIGENOUS –LANGAUGE GRAMMAR WORKS / Lexicons based study ?
What footprints/ guidelines do we find in Tamil - Telugu – Kannada grammars in relation to word-osmosis and cross linking of regional languages used for Vishnu worship ?
How much of <Tamil-Telugu- Kannada- Sanskrit> word –osmosis is present in the compositions of great Vaishnava Saint Sri Tallapaka Annamacharya (1408-1503) ? Sri Purandara Dasa (1494-1564) ? What was the take of Sri Ramanujacharya in ubhaya Vedanta proposition /Sri Vedanta Deshika in his works on this issue ?
In view of this, probably the effort to identify the ‘Telugu and Kannada words’ in the given ‘Tamil Composition’ may be something worth exploring. This may also be helpful to understand a continuity of tradition and faith in Vishnu worship; and clear many ‘ inaccurate representations of Venkateswara Balaji as ‘ Deification of a Tribal mountain chief for worship / on the same model of ‘Subramanya’ in Tamil tradition’ (?!) .
Look forward for your comments pl.
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nagaraj Paturi
Sent: Tuesday, 09 February, 2016 2:28 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
> Since yesterday I have been sifting through this Tamil verse to discover at least one Sanskrit word from it. I have failed to recognize even one except the proper name "venkata".
Nagaraj Paturi
What footprints/ guidelines do we find in Tamil - Telugu – Kannada grammars in relation to word-osmosis and cross linking of regional languages used for Vishnu worship ?
Answer: There is no deity -wise or s'aivavaishNavaadi sampradaaya-wise focus in south Indian regional language grammars. Makes sense.
Your question: How much of <Tamil-Telugu- Kannada- Sanskrit> word –osmosis is present in the compositions of great Vaishnava Saint Sri Tallapaka Annamacharya (1408-1503) ? Sri Purandara Dasa (1494-1564) ?
L Srinivas
I used 'daresay' because I could not be sure when Sanskrit names of deities became more popular than the earlier prevalent Tamil names. General histories of temples in Tamilnadu (like KV Raman's SriVaradarajaswami Temple (p. 6-7) favor Vijayanagara period as the time when the Sanskrit names of deities became rather popular.
In the case of personal names based on these deities, it is clear from inscriptions that at least till the mid 14th century, names like āṭavallāṉ and ampalakūttāṭuvāṉ were more popular than 'Natarajan' , similarly names like aruḷāḷaṉ, pēraruḷāḷaṉ (instead of Varadarajan), tiruvēṅkaṭattāṉ (instead of venkatesan or Srinivasan) were more to be seen in the names of grantees of royal favors.
btw, Nammaḻvār's tiruvāymoḻi (ca. 9th century) offers a play on words with the name 'venkatam' . The phrase 'vēm kaṭaṅkaḷ' - meaning 'karma will burn' - by sandhi becomes vēṅkaṭaṅkaḷ'. See below
vēṅkaṭaṅkaḷ meymmēl viṉai muṛṛavum
tāṅkaḷ taṅkaṭku nallaṉavē ceyvār
vēṅkaṭattu uṛaivārkku namaveṉṉa
lām kaṭamai atu cumantārkaṭkē
வேங்க டங்கள்மெய்ம் மேல்வினை முற்றவும்,
தாங்கள் தங்கட்கு நல்லன வேசெய்வார்,
வேங்க டத்துறை வார்க்கு நமவென்ன
லாங்க டமை,அதுசுமந் தார்க்கட்கே. (3148)
Here the phrase 'kaṭaṅkaḷ mēlviṉai muṛṛavum vēm' means 'existing karma, the karma which is yet to accrue and all other sins will burn' . The occurrence of 'venkatam' in the third line refers to the place Venkatam i.e., tirumala.
Hope this helps
L Srinivas
Nagaraj Paturi
- Simhavarman I 275–300
- Skandavarman
- Visnugopa 350 – 355
- Kumaravishnu I 350–370
- Skandavarman II 370–385
- Viravarman 385–400
- Skandavarman III 400–436
- Simhavarman II 436–460
- Skandavarman IV 460–480
- Nandivarman I 480–510
- Kumaravishnu II 510–530
- Buddhavarman 530–540
- Kumaravishnu III 540–550
- Simhavarman III 550–560
- Simhavishnu 575–600 [21]
- Mahendravarman I 600–630 [21]
- Narasimhavarman I (Mamalla) 630–668 [21]
- Mahendravarman II 668–672
- Paramesvaravarman I 670–695 [21]
- Narasimhavarman II (Raja Simha) 695–722 [21]
- Paramesvaravarman II 705–710
- Nandivarman II (Pallavamalla) 730–795 [21]
- Dantivarman 795–846 [21]
- Nandivarman III 846–869 [21]
- Aparajitavarman 879–897 [21]
The genealogy of Pallavas mentioned in the Māmallapuram Praśasti is as follows:
- Vishnu
- Brahma
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Bharadvaja
- Drona
- Ashvatthaman
- Pallava
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Simhavarman I (c. 275)
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Simhavarman IV (436 — c. 460)
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Skandashishya
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Simhavisnu (c. 550-585)
- Mahendravarman I (c. 571-630)
- Maha-malla Narasimhavarman I (630-668)
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Paramesvaravarman I (669-690)
- Rajasimha Narasimhavaram II (690-728)
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Pallavamalla Nandivarman II (731-796)
- Unknown / undecipherable
- Nandivarman III (846-69)
Don't we have Sanskrit names of gods in this?
Subrahmanyam Korada
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)
Veeranarayana Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि। ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः। निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
L Srinivas
Not sure what you are saying here. I was refering to personal names of people. The list you have given is one of titles, biruda names and such.
With Regards,
L Srinivas
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Nagaraj Paturi
Nagaraj Paturi
Venkatesh Murthy
नमस्ते,
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Hnbhat B.R.
On 12-Feb-2016 9:40 am, "Venkatesh Murthy" <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Namaste
>
> If Balaji means the God with Puccha or tail. Even then it can mean the Devi only.
Is Srivaraha Murthy not having "baala" and called as baalaji? Probably Venkateswara also identified with Srivaraha could be called बालाजी. If Hanuman could be called by that name, certainly it could be justified.
Nagaraj Paturi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehandipur_Balaji_Temple
has the following lines:
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nityanand Misra
On Friday, 12 February 2016 13:00:15 UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mehandipur_Balaji_Temple
has the following lines:
Mehandipur Balaji Mandir (Hindi/Rajastani: मेहंदीपुर बालाजी मंदिर) is a noted Hindu temple, mandir in dausa district of Rajasthan, dedicated to the Hindu God Hanuman. The name Balaji is applied to Shri Hanuman in several parts of India because the childhood (Bala in Hindi or Sanskrit) form of the Lord is especially celebrated there.
Dear scholars,
The name Bālājī for Lord Hanumān is largely confined to Rajasthan, and is not as popular outside of Rajasthan. Pandurangi Ji’s statement that there are thousands of Bālājī-s in north India likely refers to Bālājī temples in Rajasthan.
I would ignore what [the current version of] Wikipedia has to say as it is an unreliable source. Several authors have proposed etymologies for the name Bālājī. Among them is Lutgendorf (Hanuman’s Tale: The Messages of a Divine Monkey, 2006, New York: OUP, ISBN 9780199885824, p. 33) who like some others links the name to Sanskrit bāla/bālā meaning baby or infant:
Quote
“Yet this immortal warrior, protector, and healer also remains, for many of his worshipers, quintessentially a beloved child, and so at one of the most renowned of his healing shrines, he bears the affectionate epithet of Balaji (Bālājī, ‘‘the [divine] babe’’), a name that has also achieved wide currency.”
Unquote
However, this proposed etymology is problematic since one of the most famous Bālājī-s, the Salasar Balaji, sports a moustache and beard, features which are not found in an infant or a child. Even the Mehandipur Balaji does not have distinguishing features to say that the deity is a child or infant.
The proposed linkage with the Sanskrit word bāla/vāla meaning tail (or hair on tail) is also problematic for two reasons. One, it is not just the tail or hair on tail that is called Bālājī but Lord Hanumān himself: the sense of matup is missing from the word as it stands. Two, the word bāla/bālā is not used for tail (or hair on tail) in Rajasthani or Hindi (even though the meaning exists in Sanskrit).
Given the populartiy of the name Bālājī in Rajasthan, the words Bālājī/bālā as used in the Rajasthani languages can offer insights. In the second part of the third volume of his magnum opus Rājasthānī Sabada Kosa: Rājasthānī Hindī Bṛhat Kośa, Sitārāma Lālasa gives the meaning Hanumān for the word Bālājī. The derivation given by Nityānanda Śāstrī Dādhīca is from the Sanskrit word vallabha (वल्लभ) which means ‘dear’ or ‘beloved’. In the second part of the fourth volume of the same work, under the word vālā (वाला) its other forms बाला, बाल्हा, and वाल्हा are listed.
There are many attested uses of the word बाला in the sense of ‘dear’ or ‘beloved’ in Rajasthani works. In several of her compositions, Mirabai has used the word in this very sense. A few examples of her common refrain रे बाला:
1) जै हूँ ऐसी जानती रे बाला प्रती कीयाँ दुष होय
2) औषध मूल न संचरै रे बाला बैद फिरि जाय
3) माला मुदरा मेखला रे बाला खप्पर लूँगी हाथ
A famous use of the word बाला by Mirabai is in the composition
बाला मैं बैरागण हूंगी
which has been rendered by many classical and popular vocalists including Vani Jairam and Asha Bhonsle.
Given this crucial evidence from the Rājasthānī Sabada Kosa and the attested use of the word बाला in the sense of dear or beloved in Rajasthani, my conclusion is that the epithet Bālājī used for Lord Hanumān in Rajasthan literally means "the dear/beloved [god]" and derives from the Sanskrit word vallabha.
Thanks, Nityanand
PS: It appears the Gujarati word વ્હાલા is related to Rajasthani बाला/बाल्हा/वाल्हा, though I have not cross-verified this.
PPS: In a footnote on page 33 in Hanuman’s Tale, Lutgendorf observes:
Although most Hindus do not conflate the two deities, a poster that I saw in two places in North India in January 2006 depicts a ‘‘Balaji trimurti’’ (trimūrti, ‘‘triple image’’), in which the faces of Venkateshwara and of Balaji-Hanuman of Menhdipur, Rajasthan, appear flanking that of Balaji-Hanuman of Salasar.
ramchander deekonda
Kalicharan Tuvij
There are many attested uses of the word बाला in the sense of ‘dear’ or ‘beloved’ in Rajasthani works. In several of her compositions, Mirabai has used the word in this very sense. A few examples of her common refrain रे बाला:1) जै हूँ ऐसी जानती रे बाला प्रती कीयाँ दुष होय
2) औषध मूल न संचरै रे बाला बैद फिरि जाय
3) माला मुदरा मेखला रे बाला खप्पर लूँगी हाथ
A famous use of the word बाला by Mirabai is in the composition
बाला मैं बैरागण हूंगी
Nagaraj Paturi
N.R.Joshi
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From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:23:24 +0530
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V Subrahmanian
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc:
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:23:24 +0530
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
नमो विद्वद्भ्यः
would like to hear from the scholars here their thoughts on the origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Deity of the Tirupati Tirumala Hill.
नमस्ते,
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nagaraj Paturi
Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)
Namaste Johsi ji
On < How can we say their Dashi words do not fetch Dharma? > Any word of any language will deliver < Dharma / Punya / Siddhi > when used as a ‘Mantra’. This is what the story of Ratnakara repeating the word ‘rama’ in reverse’ becoming a Sage Valmiki, writing Ramayana.
The ‘Mantra’ mode upgrade for a ‘deshi language’ word is delivered by Saints through an initiation. The deshi language users continue to use the word in ‘Deshi’ mode’ with a ‘ belief’ that they are using it in ‘ mantra-mode’.
To upgrade a ‘deshi language’ ( = Prakrutam, Apabhramsha) to a ‘ mantra –mode usage’, one needs to know the deep intricacies of ‘ Vak-yoga + Mantra yoga + Allied disciplines of Veda and Vedanga + Tantra’. This is the ‘ (Yoga) missing language link of Samskrutham to Prakrutham( =Deshi language). Vak-Yoga is the another name of Samskrutham, the language of Vedic documents and Shaastras, for understanding which we have the language tradition given by the trio - Panini-Patanjali-Yaska, followed by Indian traditionalists and practitioners. The Harvard –schools follow a different approach from this.
Regards
BVK Sastry
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N.R.Joshi
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From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
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Nagaraj Paturi
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc:
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 07:06:37 +0530
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Just for the record:"मूर्खो वदति विष्णाय विद्वान् वदति विष्णवे। उभयोः सदृशं पुण्यं भावग्राही जनार्दनः।।"
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:53 AM, N.R.Joshi <gira...@juno.com> wrote:
Feb 12, 2016Dear Prof S.Korada,(1) First question: Thanks for explanation about the word Balaji. What about Venkata the name of the mountain where there is Tirupati temple? Is Venkata Deshi word or Sanskrit? Others have given "Vem katati iti Venkata?" Is this correct?(2) Second question: Hundreds of Saints from different regions of India in the past 10 centuries written religious books in Deshi languages-example Jnaaneshvari by Sant Jnaaneshvara and Abhangas of Sant Tularama and many more. How can we say their Dashi words do not fetch Dharma? Ramakrishna Paramahansa said if child says Ba the father understands it. In my opinion Sanskrit words alone have no monopoly for fetching Dharma. Please contradict me. Thanks. N.R.Joshi
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Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:23:24 +0530
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc:
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:23:24 +0530
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
नमो विद्वद्भ्यः
would like to hear from the scholars here their thoughts on the origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Deity of the Tirupati Tirumala Hill.
नमस्ते,
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nagaraj Paturi
Suresh Kolichala
Please note that the deity of the Balaji temple in Madhya Pradesh is Sun god, and not Hanuman.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unao,_Balaji
Suresh.
Nagaraj Paturi
Subrahmanyam Korada
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Cc:
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 07:06:37 +0530
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Just for the record:"मूर्खो वदति विष्णाय विद्वान् वदति विष्णवे। उभयोः सदृशं पुण्यं भावग्राही जनार्दनः।।"
On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 3:53 AM, N.R.Joshi <gira...@juno.com> wrote:
Feb 12, 2016Dear Prof S.Korada,(1) First question: Thanks for explanation about the word Balaji. What about Venkata the name of the mountain where there is Tirupati temple? Is Venkata Deshi word or Sanskrit? Others have given "Vem katati iti Venkata?" Is this correct?(2) Second question: Hundreds of Saints from different regions of India in the past 10 centuries written religious books in Deshi languages-example Jnaaneshvari by Sant Jnaaneshvara and Abhangas of Sant Tularama and many more. How can we say their Dashi words do not fetch Dharma? Ramakrishna Paramahansa said if child says Ba the father understands it. In my opinion Sanskrit words alone have no monopoly for fetching Dharma. Please contradict me. Thanks. N.R.Joshi
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Shankarji Jha
Dharmaniyamarthah Sadhuh Sanskritah Shabdah. Yes, Sanskrit has monopoly overvDharmaniyamah. Regards,
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Kalicharan Tuvij
That point was already mentioned by Vidwan Jagannatha S.If it is rising Sun , then Bala=child may suit. Otherwise, we have to go for a meaning more widely applicable, something like Bala= dear, loved one, lord etc.
Ashok Aklujkar
a.a.
Nagaraj Paturi
Would taking “bāla” in the sense of ‘young’ (with possible implication of ’strength, energy’, perhaps even 'effectiveness’) not take care of all the usages that have so far been noted? (The lengthening of the final “a” would be analogical as in “Śivājī” etc.; the word is not like an old Skt word and has a Pkt/Deśī element in any case.)
a.a.
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Venkatesh Murthy
Nagaraj Paturi
Ashok Aklujkar
On Feb 14, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Venkatesh Murthy <vmur...@gmail.com> wrote:No 36 is बिल्वपत्रार्चनप्रियाय नमःHe is fond of Bilwa leaf worship.How can you explain Vishnu's love for Bilwa leaves? He is fond of Tulasi leaves. Bilwa leaf worship for Siva and Durga.
Dr. P. Ramanujan
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V Subrahmanian
It is relatively common in stotras to say that Śiva likes Viṣṇu and Viṣṇu likes Śiva.
That is why in the specific verse cited by Shankara in the VSN bhāṣyam from the Harivamṣa 3.88. 61, 61, 62 which are addressed by Maheśwara during the Kailāsa yātra episode:
अहं त्वं सर्वगो देव त्वमेवाहं जनार्दन ।
आवयोरन्तरं नास्ति शब्दैरर्थैर्जगत्त्रये ॥
[I am thou and thou alone am I, O Janārdana. There is no difference between us, by word or by sense in all the three worlds.]
That is being elucidated in the sequel:
नामानि तव गोविन्द यानि लोके महान्ति च ।
तान्येव मम नामानि नात्र कार्या विचारणा ॥
[O Govinda, your esteemed names alone are mine as well; no doubt need to be had in this regard] There Veda Vyasa, through Śiva, conveys that all the names of Viṣṇu, including the name ‘Nārāyaṇa’ are that of Śiva. Thus the thousand names of Viṣṇu are also those of Śiva since there is no difference in name and sense between the pair Hari and Hara.
त्वदुपासा जगन्नाथ सैवास्तु मम गोपते ।
यश्च त्वां द्वेष्टि भो देव स मां द्वेष्टि न संशयः ॥
[The worship/meditation of You, O Gopati, let that be meditation of mine too. He who hates you O Deva, hates me too, undoubtedly.]
Nityanand Misra
On Sunday, 14 February 2016 18:20:18 UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:
3. The name Balaji is more prevalent in Rajasthan than any other parts of north India. As such, it is appropriate to look for the etymology, meaning etc. of Bala -ji from within the Rajasthani usages only. Apart from Bala = child, Bala = tail, Bala < Vallabha = dear, loved one is also found in the Rajasthani usages. (AadaraNIya Nityanandji)
In Sanskrit, two meanings, abhīṣṭa (dear, as in a lover/paramour/spouse) and adhyakṣa (one who presides over) of the word vallabha are attested to in the Amarakośa:
अभीष्टेऽभीप्सितं हृद्यं दयितं वल्लभं प्रियम् (3.1.53)
सभा संसदि सभ्ये च त्रिष्वध्यक्षेऽपि वल्लभः (3.3.137)
The Medinī (cited in Vyākhyāsudhā on Amarakośa 3.1.53 and 3.3.137) also gives these two meanings:
वल्लभो दयितेऽध्यक्षे सल्लक्षणतुरंगमे
In the northern Prakrit/Deśī languages, the word vallabha (Prakrit form ballabha) is used in the general sense of ‘dear’. Gosvāmī Tulasīdāsa has used the word five times in the Rāmacaritamānasa (composed 1575–1577 CE), twice in the sense of lover/spouse, and thrice in the wider sense. The citations and their meanings from the Bhāvārthabodhinī are listed below:
1) रामवल्लभाम् (Book 1, benedictory verse 5): “भगवान् श्रीराम की प्रियतमा धर्मपत्नी”
2) बिबेक-निधि-बल्लभहिं (Book 2, doha 283): “विवेक के सागर महाराज जनकजी की प्रियतमा”
3) भाववल्लभम् (Book 3, stanza 4, verse 10): “जिन्हें भक्तों का भाव ही प्रिय है”
4) समर-भूमि भए बल्लभ प्राना (Book 6, stanza 42, verse 8): “युद्धभूमि में प्राण प्रिय हो गए”
5) जग-बल्लभ श्रीखंड (Book 7, doha 37): “संसार को प्रिय चन्दन”
The word is used in the sense of ‘dear devotee’ (or ‘dear lord’) by Gosvāmī Nārāyaṇadāsa (Nābhājī), also from Rajasthan (Galta), in the ninth stanza of the Bhaktamāla (composed c. 1600 CE):
हरिबल्लभ सब प्रारथों (जिन) चरनरेनु आशा धरी
Here is what the commentaries say on the word हरिबल्लभ:
Bhaktirasabodhinī (1712 CE): हरि के जे बल्लभ हैं दुर्लभ भुवन माझ ...
Bhaktirasāyanī Vyākhyā (1960): हरि के जो प्यारे भक्त हैं ...
Mūlārthabodhinī Ṭīkā (2014): ... जो श्रीहरिको प्रिय हैं, और श्रीहरि जिनको प्रिय हैं, ...
Venkatesh Murthy
भवता यदुक्तं तन्नायुक्तम् । भार्गववासरपूजायां वेङ्कटेश्वरस्य बिल्वार्चनश्रवणात्। तर्हि
महालक्ष्मीरूपेण अर्थात् देवीरूपेण पूजितो भवति।
-वेङ्कटेशः
Nagaraj Paturi
N.R.Joshi
---------- Original Message ----------
From: "Dr.BVK Sastry \\(G-Mail-pop\\)" <sastr...@gmail.com>
To: <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: RE: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 2016 01:11:27 -0500
Namaste Johsi ji
On < How can we say their Dashi words do not fetch Dharma? > Any word of any language will deliver < Dharma / Punya / Siddhi > when used as a ‘Mantra’. This is what the story of Ratnakara repeating the word ‘rama’ in reverse’ becoming a Sage Valmiki, writing Ramayana.
The ‘Mantra’ mode upgrade for a ‘deshi language’ word is delivered by Saints through an initiation. The deshi language users continue to use the word in ‘Deshi’ mode’ with a ‘ belief’ that they are using it in ‘ mantra-mode’.
To upgrade a ‘deshi language’ ( = Prakrutam, Apabhramsha) to a ‘ mantra –mode usage’, one needs to know the deep intricacies of ‘ Vak-yoga + Mantra yoga + Allied disciplines of Veda and Vedanga + Tantra’. This is the ‘ (Yoga) missing language link of Samskrutham to Prakrutham( =Deshi language). Vak-Yoga is the another name of Samskrutham, the language of Vedic documents and Shaastras, for understanding which we have the language tradition given by the trio - Panini-Patanjali-Yaska, followed by Indian traditionalists and practitioners. The Harvard –schools follow a different approach from this.
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of N.R.Joshi
Sent: Friday, 12 February, 2016 5:24 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Feb 12, 2016
Dear Prof S.Korada,
(1) First question: Thanks for explanation about the word Balaji. What about Venkata the name of the mountain where there is Tirupati temple? Is Venkata Deshi word or Sanskrit? Others have given "Vem katati iti Venkata?" Is this correct?
(2) Second question: Hundreds of Saints from different regions of India in the past 10 centuries written religious books in Deshi languages-example Jnaaneshvari by Sant Jnaaneshvara and Abhangas of Sant Tularama and many more. How can we say their Dashi words do not fetch Dharma? Ramakrishna Paramahansa said if child says Ba the father understands it. In my opinion Sanskrit words alone have no monopoly for fetching Dharma. Please contradict me. Thanks. N.R.Joshi
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please note: message attached
From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
Date: Thu, 11 Feb 2016 12:23:24 +0530
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Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)
Namaste Joshi ji
1. On < example to upgrade a desi language word to ‘ Mantra mode usage’ > - This is NOT a theory. It is a live practice of using Speech to seek Spirit; a concept and factor that falls outside the pale of Social linguistics, indology and science of acoustics ! This is a guidance for live experience here and now as dynamics of human consciousness in motion with intention. Is there a scientific model, postulation and tools for this before making a rejection of tradition ?
You are free to hold your conclusion < Mantra shastra is our comforting blanket like a baby has a blanket and soft toy to feel secure. Indian civilization over thousands of years' period developed many comforting blankets. Mantra shastra is one of them >.
The day you ( or any one) want to ‘ Experience Thought- Articulation as Expression to be Consciousness in motion and brimming with Life energy’ - The Vak, as a personal experience, Then you will be ready to walk in to the practical gate of Mantra-analysis. Till then, Good luck with your post mortem of ‘ Shabda and Artha as part and dismembered disjointed units of Vak, placed on a post mortem table having acoustic and neural signal measuring instruments’. In other words, the day science gives a tool for postulating and measuring dynamics of life energy (Prana) and Consciousness (Chaitanya), we can re-engage ourselves on this dialogue. The comfort of blanket for a living person and a dead body are different experiences .
2. This theory and practice is the fundamental premise of Vedanga Shikshaa Shaastra and Sacred Spiritual Linguistics , of Samskruth studies. The starting line of foundational theory is ‘Atmaa Buddhyaa Sametya arthaan…’. Further exposition of this theory is in Bhagavad-Gita 16th chapter explaining what is meant by ‘Tapas of Vak / Vak related Tapas aspect of Yoga’. This detailing is needed only for a ‘Seeker-Practitioner ’ ( = Saadahaka) . It makes no sense to a postmortem social speech – analyst, whose ultimate tool is ‘ signal anlyzers’ . The examples of ‘ desi words in Mantra-mode’ are aplenty in Vedic ritual works, Tantra, Aagama – and I do not intend to give tonnes of references for this to the learned audience. The exchange of posts on the word ‘venkata’ – as a desi word and its use as a sacred mantra in tradition is ample evidence of this theory in practice.
3. The proposition of Varna-Vada made by you is a partial offshoot of ‘ Mantra- Linguistics’ theory present in great detail as a part of Sphota Vada, on which Professor Korada has detailed. It is exploring how meaning of a word permeates as the essence in the subtle parts of the word – at the level of Varna and Naada. You are fixated on the idea of ‘ fixed eternal meanings to the Varna/ Upasarga’ as a part of your Varna Vada. This is only a partial presentation of the bigger theory of ‘Vak-Artha-Sampruktataa’ - Unity of Speech and Sense Amalgamated as communication’ , in which the relation of word Meaning-to- Word elements are detailed.
4. When academic theories of word - meaning are built to explain worldly communication of language in a social and historic context, the boundary of such debate stops at the conventional meaning and connotation ( = Artha- Samjnaa /Samjni) , we get normal scholarly theories of language. Dictionary becomes the guidance and authority along with usage.
When theories of word - meaning are to transcend the worldly communication and the boundary of local communication, and head towards the source of Speech, then the vision extends beyond the varna-vada; conventional It transcends the limits of Mind-Intellect combine which associates the word meaning to an object. The meaning derivation is called Yaugika-Artha-Nirukti = The visioning of the True communication and representation of Word –and Denotation of Word. This is Vedanga positioning of Samskruth linguistics. This transcending is the experience of Vak-Yoga ; the Mantra mode of using a given desi word . This aspect is given in Upanishads as ‘ yato vacho nivartante, aprapya manasaa saha’ - when the word transcends its function as a designator of an object (vastu) and Action (-Kriyaa), When the word ‘ approaches the limits of ‘ Understanding’ and goes to ‘Direct -Visioning’, the shift as ‘Artha-Grahana’ to ‘ Artha Darshana’, then one sees the Supreme Divine embedded in the word ( = Shada-antargata Brahma /Shabda –Brahma). This is Mantra mode usage benefit.
5. Discussing about ‘Mantra Shaastra’ in the academic mode in any platform is like having a ‘Dead word-body’ on table for postmortem and seeking how life – energy (Prana ) works. Mantra Shaastra works if there is ‘Prana’ in the speaker and the same is infused in to word through a process. This is called ‘Breathing life in to the word / Breathing Life through the Word’. This explains why Samskrutham is ARTICULATION FIRST (Ucchaarana) and NOT script !
6. You say < Mantras in ancient yajnas were animal sacrifices ?!> – It is a highly debatable statement; and a social aberration of practice. This lacks total understanding of the ‘ Inner-Yajna concept, Vak-Yoga and ‘Antra-Yoga’, which is meant for spiritual goal achievement. The mode of animal sacrifice associated ‘ Mantra’ is analogous to practices of Halal and Kosher, which is a field worth exploring in relation to social yajna performance, where the focus is ‘God –pleasing for a benefit’ . The Mantra/ Vak-Yoga is for ‘ Para-Brahma Jnana’ – whch is far beyond the ‘ Devataa domains and desire to enjoy pleasure-worlds. The fad of Television presentations and exaggerations is also a great promoter of such inaccurate understanding of practices related to Veda –Mantra.
Mystic practice and Social aberration presentation of Vedic tradition through colonial eyes is not a good mix.
Nagaraj Paturi
N.R.Joshi
Please note: message attached
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To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The or igin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Lord of Tirupati
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--a.a.
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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--Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Former Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Kalicharan Tuvij
1) रामवल्लभाम् (Book 1, benedictory verse 5): “भगवान् श्रीराम की प्रियतमा धर्मपत्नी”
2) बिबेक-निधि-बल्लभहिं (Book 2, doha 283): “विवेक के सागर महाराज जनकजी की प्रियतमा”
3) भाववल्लभम् (Book 3, stanza 4, verse 10): “जिन्हें भक्तों का भाव ही प्रिय है”
4) समर-भूमि भए बल्लभ प्राना (Book 6, stanza 42, verse 8): “युद्धभूमि में प्राण प्रिय हो गए”
5) जग-बल्लभ श्रीखंड (Book 7, doha 37): “संसार को प्रिय चन्दन”
Savitri
Sent from my iPad
Namaste,I have been very curious about the deity of Tirumala since my childhood. Long time back I met one Kanpuri Brahmin in Hyderabad. While discussing about Tirupati Balaji, he told me very interesting things.!. He said that that deity has nothing to do with Hindu religion. According to him it is neither Vishnu nor Shiva. It is a compromised deity of Hari-Hara-Devi (Balatripurasundari)2. He also told me that there were many strifes/wars between Vaishnavas and Saivas in the south. Hence in order to bring harmony between these feuding sects, Adi Sankara devised a plan,which was a part of his mission, to convert the Jain Temple into a vedic/Hindu temple. For this purpose, he made the jain tirthankara's idol a new Hindu god by coining and naming it Venkateshwara.3. For this purpose, the Jain deity was decorated with vaishnava and saiva marks. Vishnu is not Nagabushana, vishnu is nagasayana, but in this deity one find naga abharanas.4. Jain architecture has distinct features in idols. Elongated ears, wide eyes, curly hair etc. In order to conceal those Jain features, big 'naamam' (vertical tilak marks) and big ear-coverings camouflage the face of the deity. Even the 'abhaya hastham' is also a cover to the straight hand of the Jain deity I am told.5. He further told me, that it is Jain tradition that tirthankara idols stand alone. (cf:shravana belagola etc). Since Hindu gods, especially vaishnava idols always have consorts by their side, special place is made in the chest region of the Jain idol for the placement of Sri Devi and Bhu Devi.6. That Kanpuri Brahmin also told me that shaving head is also a Jain practice, that was adopted in this tirumala Temple.7. Another important point is that the Laddu prasad is not the culture of south Indian temple traditions. It is north Indian adopted here.8. Finally it was asserted that the name Balaji, is nothing but a contracted form of Balatripurasundari.. Please note, many Archakas hold that the deity of Tirumala has feminine features.9. The story of Akasha Raju, and Muslim king etc appear to be just fictitious sthala puranam. I have been told that the Muslim story of Bibi Nanchari etc are not verifiable historically, since all Muslim rule of the south is well recorded. These stories are never recorded anywhere.10. Last, according to many the name Padmavati is closely related to Jainism. She is the consort of a Tirthankara. This name appears to have been conveniently used here to denote consort of Venkateshwara.11. He also told me that Mahant-administration is also a north Indian concept, a remnant of Jain temple administration.Dear scholars please note, I have just jotted down what I was told when I was too young. There appears to be lot of truism in what I have written above. An investigative analysis is required to refute the above observations.
On Friday, February 5, 2016 at 11:23:10 PM UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:NamasteI would like to hear from the scholars here their thoughts on the origin of the name 'Bālāji' for the Deity of the Tirupati Tirumala Hill. On a search, I found this post, though inconclusive:Since the word / name has a Sanskrit content, I am posing the question in this forum.warm regardssubrahmanian.v
Savitri
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N.R.Joshi
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Nagaraj Paturi
हतो वा प्राप्स्यसि स्वर्ग।न् जित्वा वा भोक्ष्यसे महीम्।ह् ।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृइतनिश्चयः ॥ 2\-37॥
and
ते तं भुक्त्वा स्वर्गलोकं विशालं
क्षीणे पुण्ये मर्त्यलोकं विशन्ति ।
एवं त्रयीधर्ममनुप्रपन्ना
गतागतं कामकामा लभन्ते ॥ 9\-21॥
and the svarga of Indra as described in svargaarohana parva.
Dr.BVK Sastry (G-Mail-pop)
Namaste Joshi ji
( A point made in private correspondence is brought to forum – for what ever reasons. Therefore I am responding on the forum. I am leaving the trail mail for reference if any needed.)
1. Your Varna –Vada is not alien to Samskruth studies; but it is neither the ultimate or only valid theory. I am given to understand that your conversations with the traditional scholars at Hyderabad has clarified this point.
2. On Mantra Science: Mantra producing Mundane effects related issue and science of it - in producing results like curses, curing etc;. : This debate is bordering on the fringe of Faith and Esoteric science , both of which are farther away from Material Science debate. In current idiom of English language, this would be the topic of materialization, Distance healing, Miracles and the like.
Mantra, an esoteric science, is an integral part of ‘ Indian tradition’ and Hindu psyche –Faith belief’ for millennia. One should see the multivalent meaning of the word ‘Mantra’ here with caution. Vedas are called ‘Mantra’; and so are the chants like ‘ Hum, Phat, Svahaa’ ! So what is the difference between the two ? How many varieties of ‘mantra’ are there? How are they to be used for specific benefits ? – These are questions of Yoga-Prayoga- Vinoyoga:: Vision- Combinations – Applications, detailed in Yoga way of studying Samskrutham = Vak Yoga. The technicality of Samskrutham as Yoga-language /Vak-Yoga / Language of Mantra explains all these aspects. The indologists, philologists, computational linguists and language historians of Samskruth turn a blind eye to this aspect of Samskruth – Theory and Practice available in abundance, right from Earlier works of Vedas through Gita , Yoga Sutras and Patanjali Mahabhashya.
The ‘ detailing of miracles and ways of elevating a sound to the level of mantra is documented in Yoga-Sutra and Mantra Shastra’ texts. These are taught only for personal progress in spiritual seeking. So also the science of sounds to cause material effects and actions are taught only for those who take a commitment to use it with responsibility for social welfare. The efficacy of mantra empowered rituals is a matter of many individuals personal experience. What then is missing and is different in the usage of mantra in the older generations and so called Modern scientists ? This needs to be scientifically studied and investigate. A modern Scientist cannot say that ‘mantra’ is bogus claim just because it does not make itself amenable to a control group model experiment in a laboratory. The lab instrumentation is not geared to measure the subtle effects and processes of mantra; and the mantra –text instructions seen in translations have much to be corrected and set right. Till then, all that one would wish is to find a amicable way for dialogue on this topic.
To my mind and limits of understanding, there is an ‘ invisible gap / missing link’ that either the Yoga-Samskruth linguists have not been to explain to modern scientists Or Modern scientists have serious reservation and inhibition to explore the yoga science of yore. This is the link of ‘Pada-Shaastra and Pramana Shastra related Yoga :: Vyakarana and Nyaya as Yoga- Shaastras. To my mind again, the only way to address this issue is an open mind – traditional frame of reference dialogue on the question of ‘What is Mantra’? as a linguistic unit, which when articulated in a specific mode, brings in changes that can be tangibly measured , regulated, controlled.
This specific aspect is the deep dialogue of a discipline called ‘ AstraVidya part of Mantra’. The mechanical repetition of the chant – ‘Astraya Phat’ with the finger-locking mudras made in the pious way to a technical perfection is not enough to answer the above question. Again the question goes back to the basics :What is Samskrutham ? for use in the ‘ Mantra’ mode ? The answer is in understanding why Patanjali calls Samskrutham as Vak-Yoga on authority of a vedic verse and leaves it unexplained .
One thing is sure. The conversational mode of ‘Mama naama – Tava naama :: My name – your name’ is not going to answer the Mantra related issue for Samskrutham.
Coming back, Who is the focal team who would be willing to put their energy and resources to explore / support this study? Surely not the NRI’s who look for the IP rights and commercial exploitation of Veda –Yoga Sciences. Surely not the indologists who want Sanskrit as a ‘ Historical Classical dead language ! For a dead language cannot produce live effects ! Surely not those who want to make a battle cry for ‘Sanskrit’ leaving out the ‘ Yoga understanding of the tradition’ and pushing the ‘ control on language – teaching and translation issues’ as a religion and culture for ritual issue. These isolated approaches produces a ‘ social divide and clash of ancient versus modern’.
The dialogue for seeking the secrets of such esoteric Yoga Knowledge in open forum space is not going to do any good for Samskrutham or Yoga. And For the traditional Indians / Brahmanas who look at the ‘ ways to make Gods work and fulfill the desire of the seeker through the ‘Mantra chant’, (Cf: Bhoja : Mantraadheenam tu daivatam, tanmantram Brahmanadheenam :: Mantras control Gods; And Mantra usage are regulated by Learned Brahmanas), this is a debate of blasphemy questioning the sacred foundation of Vedas ! . Mantra as ‘Kaama-dhuk’ Desire yielding cows (- where the desire could be Heaven or healing ) is a given unquestionable hypothesis ! Patanjali did not create the concept of Swaga. He draws it from earlier resources and society. If Gita accepted the concept of Swarga ( and also the Naraka : Cf: Gita – 1-43) and used it in Yoga discourse and Trayee Dharma ( Cf : 9-21) why question it from a different plank ? It may be interesting to see the multivalent understanding of Swarga concept in contrast to Moksha concept in ‘Trayee’ documents and Gita (Cf: 7-29 ). When Gods in ‘Swarga’ heaven themselves debated on ‘Moksha’ which is beyond Swarga, what is the difference between mantras yielding benefit of swarga and mantras which help to transcend Swarga?
No one in the tradition of past claimed and confirmed learning Samskrutham is easy or it is meant for all and sundry on the street for making a local conversation.
The time has come to revisit the three in-accuracies in post-colonial period that has seriously distorted the tradition of Mantra-Yoga -Samskrutham, namely (a) ‘ deep inaccuracy of understanding the nature and purpose of two fold nature of Samskrutham’ in its Mantra Chandas and Bhashaa streams , (b) The forced erasure of the uniqueness of ‘Chandas (Mantra) from Bhashaa (Paninian classical literary Sanskrit as named today)’ using a historical language model for a spiritual technical language and (c ) , the overriding substitution of ‘English likeness on the systemic structure of Samskrutham’ . The jumps in post for meaning of ‘Mantra’ - ‘ Mantra for Swarga attainment’ , based on popular usage of ‘ Swarga as a place to reach through an ascension model , where one is received by the Lord of Heaven as Indra’ and a follow up dialogue with God of Death – All these are already accommodating the ‘Mantra’ and ‘anvartha’ ( = Anu as in Anu-Shaasanam :: Anvartha = Following a contextual meaning of the discourse) issue. In this sense, violating this guidance in understanding Samskruth word meaning is vyartha ( =meaningless).
Surely Samskrth studies is interesting in sifting out the Artha from ‘apaartha and Vyartha’ :: inaccurate beating round the bush debate and useless illustrations.
Thank you for the post which helped to bring out some deeper issues in study of Mantra-Yoga-Samskrutham.