help needed-kannada

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Please find the screenshot.

The Kannada word ಬೆನ್ಕಿ ಪಟ್ಟಣ (benki paTTaNa) is translated as 'match box'.

Can any one please tell me whether it is correct or not?

The above is taken from the below book.

Regards

Ramana murthy

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Oct 2, 2018 at 2:29 PM RamanaMurthy Bathala <bathal...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sir,

Please find the screenshot.

The Kannada word ಬೆನ್ಕಿ ಪಟ್ಟಣ (benki paTTaNa) is translated as 'match box'.

Can any one please tell me whether it is correct or not?

 

I think the word should be ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ  and not ಪಟ್ಟಣ packet, sachet .  The latter would mean a town.  [ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ is given in an internet English - Kannada dictionary/translator.]

The sanskrit word for a packet/bundle also is very close to the other vernacular, in Tamil, for example. 

पोटलिका	f.	poTalikA	bundle or packet
पोटल	m.	poTala	bundle or packet
पोटलक	m.	poTalaka	bundle or packet

If one wants to have another translation for match box, this would be better: ಕಡ್ಡಿ ಪೆಟ್ಟಿಗೆ. (kaDDi peTTige) kaDDi = stick.  match stick.  a box containing match sticks. 

regards

subrahmanian.v

The above is taken from the below book.

Regards

Ramana murthy

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[Ramaratnam S.]

benki peTTige would have been a better word. benki means fire. peTTige is already given in the glossary. I have learnt Kannada but I

I am no a native speaker of Kannada and so I am not able to justify the use of paTTaNa here.

Ramaratnam

[Hnbhat B.R.]

The correct word as  ಬೆಂಕಿಪೊಟ್ಟಣ or ಬೆಂಕಿಪೊಟ್ಟ್ಣ,  but less likely as benkipaTTaNa.

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

All my life i gave said and heard benki.paTTaNa.

puTTana sounds weird to me but i couldbe wrong. 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Suresh Kolichala]

The change of short /o/ > /a/ is sporadically found in Kannada, particularly in Bellary Kannada (cf. Sound Change By D. N. Shankara Bhat ch 3). This change is very similar to how the old Sanskrit (primitive Indo-Aryan) lost the original IE short /ĕ/ and short /ŏ/ which merged with short /a/ (ऎ, ऒ > अ). 

[DEDR 4388]

peṭṭi  'box'  (Tamil peṭṭi box, chest, basket; peṭṭakam chest, box; Telugu: peṭṭe box, safe; Tulu: peṭṭigè box)

         > poṭṭi   (change of /e/ and /i/ to /o/ after the labials) 

         > paṭṭi   (change of short /o/ > /a/)  

ಬೆಂಕಿ + ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ  >  ಬೆಂಕಿಪೊಟ್ಟಣ > ಬೆಂಕಿಪಟ್ಟಣ.

In Telugu matchbox is called aggipeṭṭe (అగ్గిపెట్టె). 

Regards,

Suresh.

[Ramaratnam S.]

The explanation given by Sri Suresh is very convincing. Excellent.

Ramaratnam

[Nagaraj Paturi]

ಬೆಂಕಿ ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ > ಬೆಂಕಿ ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ 

is not valid. 

ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ = box, tin 

ಪೊಟ್ಟನ > ಪೊಟ್ನ = pack 

Kannada ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ =  Telugu పెట్టె 

Kannada ಪೊಟ್ನ ,ಪೊಟ್ಟನ, ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ = Telugu పొట్లం , 

Just as Telugu పెట్టె > పొట్లం is not valid, Kannada ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ >  ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ is not valid. 

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

ಪೆಟ್ಟಿ is often found in the form ಪೆಟ್ಟಿಗೆ . 

[Suresh Kolichala]

Thanks, Nagaraju gaaru. For the current purposes, I agree that we need to treat peṭṭi and poṭṭa(ṇa) as derived from two different roots, although in my opinion, both of them belong to the set of words derived from a single pre-Aryan, pre-Dravidian root. 

Burrow thought words such as *pōṭṭa 'cavity, basket, container' are derived from a Dravidian root with the meaning of 'hollow'  (Burrow 1945). Kuiper thought many words related to mūṭa 'bundle', muṭṭa, puṭa, poṭṭa, poṭṭala are derived from a Proto-Munda root (Kuiper 'Proto Munda Words In Sanskrit' 1948). 

My opinion is that the words such as puṭa 'cavity'; pēṭṭa, poṭṭa 'belly'; pēṭa, peṭṭa, potta 'basket'; piṭaka, pēṭa, peṭṭa, potta  'box' are derived from a single niṣāda root *peṭ 'hallow,' 'hallow container'. As some of the Dravidian languages show the rounding of front vowels between bilabial and retroflex (e.g., peṭṭi > poṭṭi ‘box’; peṇ- > poṇṇu ‘woman’), I find similar rounding of vowels after labials in various Prakrits as well. Furthermore, since we find the alteration of /m/, /p/, /b/ and /v/ among the common archaic words across various Indian languages (bala, vala, malla 'strong, strength' etc.), I believe mūṭa 'bundle' should also be clubbed with same niṣādic root. Obviously, further research is warranted.

For the current purposes, I propose that kannada poṭṭa(ṇa) and Telugu poṭlam are related to marathi  poṭaḷa  (पोटळा/पोटळी  Medicaments tied up in a corner of a cloth), and Hindi poṭ 'bundle, package'; poṭḷa 'large bundle' etc., with a possible connection to peṭṭa/ peṭṭi 'box'. 

Regards,

Suresh.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

You might remember that I seconded your proposal for tracing non-Indo-European non-Dravidian origins of Indian language words. 

From the evidence of puṭ > puṭṭi= basket-boat /puṭṭa/buṭṭa =basket, we can see that the root has got to do with the half-spherical concave shape. poṭṭa = belly, pot-belly, pregnant belly  seems to have got its origin in the half-spherical convex shape thus connected to the same root puṭ . boṭṭu could also be connected to the root. 

It has to be considered whether poṭlam /poṭnam of Telugu and poṭna /poṭṭaṇa of Kannada also have got to do withis root because poṭlam /poṭnam , poṭna /poṭṭaṇa has got to do with shaping the material such as paper into a half-spherical concave shape. But since the word has no ancient usage and since paper is a later arrival, origin outside this root need not be ruled out. 

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[Jagannathan Ramaswami]

Tamil has the derived form poTTalam Sanskrit poTala in the sense of a package, never a 'box' as in match box. I see twin processes working here. The Marathi retroflex 'poTaLa' could be reason for the final retroflex  Na. We need also to account for the change in meaning. How did poTTaNa get the meaning of a box? I don't think matches ever came in bundles. We should find out historical evidence from Kannada for the changes.

[Sanjoooooooooooo]

ನಮಸ್ಕಾರ 

ಕಡ್ಡಿ ಪೆಟ್ಟಿಗೆ (kaddi Pettige) is also popularly used in Northern part of Kartnataka. Which means to say sticks (ಕಡ್ಡಿ)  Pettige (ಪೆಟ್ಟಿಗೆ).

Thanks

 

 

 

[Srivatsa B R]

Dear scholars,

The words 'beMki poTTaNa', 'beMki peTTige' and 'kaDDi peTTige' are the Kannada equivalents for English 'match box'. 'paTTaNa' in 'beMki paTTaNa' is more of a case of mispronunciation.

Also, as rightly mentioned earlier by Shri. V Subrahmanian, 'paTTaNa' is the Kannada equivalent for English 'town'.

with regards,

Shrivatsa

Srivatsa B R

Senior Linguist

Centre for Development of Advanced Computing (C-DAC)

'Knowledge Park', # 1, Old Madras Road, Baiyappanahalli, Near Baiyappanahalli Metro Station,

Bengaluru - 560 038

Karnataka, India

On Wed, Oct 3, 2018 at 9:43 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Sanjoooooooooooo]

Namaskara

'paTTaNa'  OR paTna are used interchangeably.

If it paTTana alone, then means city. If followed by Benki or KaDDi, paTTaNa will mean Match box. kaDDi Pettige or Kaddi paTna are commonly used.

Thanks

 

Sanjay!

 

 

 

[RamanaMurthy Bathala]

Dear Sir,

Initially I thought it was typo when I come across the word paTTaNa (పట్టణ/ಪಟ್ಟಣ) translated as box.

1) I found the same word paTTaNa (పట్టణ/ಪಟ್ಟಣ) carrying same meaning box at another place in the same book.

2) But more confusion followed. In the same book, paTTaNa (పట్టణ/ಪಟ್ಟಣ) carrying the meaning city / town is given at another place.

Whether it is typo or consciously written by the author, is not known. Moreover the book is published by credential sources like Government of Karnataka.

I referred three dictionaries. Not a single dictionary has given the meaning of 'box' to the word paTTaNa (పట్టణ/ಪಟ್ಟಣ).

All three are referring to 'town/city'.

a) Kannada-English etymological dictionary by Norihiko Učida & Bando Bhimaji Rajapurohit

b) Kannada-English dictionary by Ferdinand Kittel (1894)

c) Dictionary, Canarese and English by William Reeve, revised by Daniel Sanderson (1858).

Regards

Ramana murthy

[Nagaraj Paturi]

ಪಟ್ಟಣ wherever it is used in the sense of matchbox is a dialectal variation for ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ / ಪೊಟ್ನ . 

ಪಟ್ಟಣ  used in the sense of town is mainstream usage only. 

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[Subodh Bhat]

ಪಟ್ಟಣ in Kannada can mean a small town as well as box or a bundle. Box is usually ಪೊಟ್ಟಣ, but in case of Match box its also called ಬೆಂಕಿ ಪಟ್ಟಣ.

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[G S S Murthy]

If someone uses "paTTaNa" to  mean "package\small box", it is just mispronuciation. That is all.

Regards,
murthy

My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

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[Shrivathsa B]

poTTaNa is any small enclosure to hold stuff.

Before polythene became common we used to get sundries in poTTaNas. The process used to be called poTTaNa kaTTuvudu (making poTTaNa) - a conical enclosure made using newspaper which was closed at the top after filling and thin jute or cotton thread run over the conical shape to prevent it from unravelling.

poTTaNa of a different variation is used even today commonly by those who pack paan (biiDa)... Enclosing the paan in a paper.

To my mind the word's dhaatu may be close to that of puTiikaraNam. (puTa saMshleShaNe?)

The word for a page is called a puTa in kannaDa which may indicate that any page like thing was used for puTiikaraNa (enclosing).

Volumes of books which "enclose" information are called saMpuTas in kannaDa.

poTTaNa may be a corruption of poTanam.

[G S S Murthy]

"puTa", I thought was tadbhava of "pRuShTa".

Anyway, Is there a google group for Kannada lovers?

Regards,

Murthy

[Hnbhat B.R.]

It is not "pRuShTa" but पृष्ठ in Sanskrit. 

If there is a group for Kannada, the questions of Ramana regarding Kannada could have been better placed in such a group.

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Mob: +91-9845756611

 

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My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/kannadastf

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/pdxkannadakoota

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