Non-existence of short (hrasva) 'e' and 'o' in devanagari

[ramchander deekonda]

While on the subject of hrasva and deergha I would like to discuss this:

Every language has its own peculiarities.  Sanskrit is no exception.  In all dravidian language and also in English we have shorts for 'e' and 'o'.  Since devanagari does not have this form of vowel, a great number of devanagari-users cannot distinguish between "test" and "taste" between "west' and "waste".  and similarly "original" and "oriental". 'Reddy' is pronounced as 'Raiddy' and 'red' is 'raid'

Because of this deficiency in the nagari alphabet, pronunciation of such words leads to amusing situations.  Once, I heard a gentleman asking a Diagnostic Lab receptionist to get his blood "tasted" instead of "tested".  In Hyderabad, we have a locality called West Maredpally, it is invariably pronounced as Waste Maredpally by nagari influenced people. I think specialists who are interested in right pronunciation may please devise some mark to denote short vowels in devanagari.

dhanyo'smi

Ramchander Deekonda

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1. Each script system has the symbols suited to the languages for which the system is used.

 

2. 'Deficiency' comes into question only when one script system is used for the transliteration of the language for which it is not devised.

 

3. No script system is free from such issues.

 

4. CIIL and other such organizations where the transliteration of south Indian languages into Devanagari becomes necessary have already devised modifications for ह्रस्ववक्र .( ह्रस्ववक्र, दीर्घवक्र, वक्रतम are the words used by certain grammars for e, o,  ē, ō, ai, au. 

 

5. Pronunciation of ह्रस्ववक्र by the speakers of north Indian languages needs a special phonetic alertness/training. But a general speaker may not try for such an accuracy just as a a general south Indian speaker of north Indian languages does with halanth syllable pronunciation etc. 

 

6. Forums of this kind are the places where a broader scientific linguistic understanding of issues can shine.

 

Regards,

Nagaraj

 

 

 

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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Usha Sanka]

Namaste

"I think specialists who are interested in right pronunciation may please devise some mark to denote short vowels in devanagari."

Even in Devanagari there are mAtrAs for this- Please consider- for 

दीर्घ एकार - े

ह्रस्व ऎकार - ॆ

दीर्घ ओकार - ो

ह्रस्व ऒकार - ॊ

I read that Avadhi and Braj do have hrasva "e" and "o" and for representing those in Devanagri script, they use these mAtrAs.

But unfortunately though we can devise mAtrAs, we cannot get those differences in pronunciation easily because of limited training. We are limited by sounds in our own mother tongue. Regarding consonants there are far more things.

Eg. Japanese have no "l" ; they pronounce all places where "l" occurs as "r". Same happens with many other sounds like ळ, ऑ ड़ फ़ क़ ख़ ग़ ... and many many more. But vowel sounds are most primary.. is what I think.

Special attention is needed in this regard.. is undebatable.

-vinItA

उषा

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 9:30 AM, ramchander deekonda <ramchande...@gmail.com> wrote:

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"-यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते तद्धाम परमं मम"

[Nityanand Misra]

Not only the sounds are present in both Avadhī and Braja languages (as another member pointed out), glyphs for these sounds in Devanāgarī were introduced much before the CIL came into existence (early 1980s). The Kāśirāja edition of the Rāmacaritamānasa (ed. Viśvanātha Prasāda Miśra) was first published in 1962 and used different glyphs for both the Mātrās and independent vowels for short (Ekamātrika) e and o to distinguish them from the Dvimātrika e and o in Devanāgarī. The glyphs are not very different from those used by CIL, CDAC or the Unicode standard. I am not sure if the publishers of the Kāśirāja edition devised these symbols or somebody else did before them. But it happened much before efforts by CIL. In fact it is not known to many people from southern India that the Ekamātrika e and o vowels exist in northern languages and play an important role in the vast poetic literature of Avadhī and Braja.

Regarding 'west/waste', 'test/taste', anybody with sufficient exposure to spoken English can pick up correct English pronunciation. A script need not be changed for the same. Accents and mispronunciations exist world over.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks for the information on the Kasiraja Edition of Ramacharithamanasa and the creation of glyphs for 'Ekamaatrika' e and o, way back in 1962.

 

CIIL came into existence in 1969 seven years later to this. The use of glyphs for 'Ekamaatrika' e and o by CIIL must be even later. Probably CIIL picked up a leaf or two from the book of previous publications too. I made no claim of they being the first users /creators of such glyphs. I only said that they were in need of using such glyphs while transliterating the south Indian words in Devanagari. The point was not whether the CIIL was a pioneer in this regard.

 

I was only urging the initiator of the thread not to assume that pronunciation by the speaker of a language is  based on the script system of that language and I was trying to bring home the (scientific) understanding which is exactly the other way round. My two points :

 

"1. Each script system has the symbols suited to the languages for which the system is used.

 

2. 'Deficiency' comes into question only when one script system is used for the transliteration of the language for which it is not devised."

 

do not contradict the Avadhi, Braj situation.

 

I was only contradicting the assumption of a 'deficiency' in the general Devanagari system and the assumption of the perceived pronunciation problems to be results of such a 'deficiency'.

 

I was only urging for a "a broader scientific linguistic understanding"

 

I was not disputing any of your points and I do not think your information contradicts any of my points.

 

Glyphs for Ekamaatrik e and o are not required either for Sanskrit or  for north Indian languages,  speakers of which are not taught these glyphs.

 

For writing Avadhi, Braj or for the transliteration of words from languages where the sounds of Ekamaatrik e and o are found, the glyphs created for these sounds are very much useful. Thanks to their first creators.

 

सुधीविधेयः

 

नागराजः

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ashok Aklujkar]

Although not talking in terms of script the following should be noted (I am reproducing from an already available electronic text, not retyping):

Pata:njali, Mahaabhaa.sya (var.na-samaamnaaya discussion):

chandogānām sātyamugrirāṇāyanīyāḥ ardham ekāram ardham
okāram ca adhīyate : sujāte aśvasūnr̥te , adhvaryo odribhiḥ sutam , śukram te
anyat yajatam te anyat iti . pārṣadakr̥tiḥ eṣā tatrabhavatām . na eva hi loke na
anyasmin vede ardhaḥ ekāraḥ ardhaḥ okāraḥ vā asti

[Nityanand Misra]

 
On Wednesday, May 7, 2014 12:53:34 AM UTC+8, nagarajpaturi wrote:

Thanks for the information on the Kasiraja Edition of Ramacharithamanasa and the creation of glyphs for 'Ekamaatrika' e and o, way back in 1962.

 

CIIL came into existence in 1969 seven years later to this.

Dear Prof. Paturi

I only meant to provide some more information on the use of the Ekamatrika glyphs, and was not contradicting in any way your general observations. I agree with most of what you said.

Thanks also for correcting me that CIIL was formed in 1969.

My source was this page -
http://www.ciil.org/aboutlegend.aspx
"All through the last 32 years in existence, ..."

Which means their history on their official website is outdated by thirteen years! That is certainly legendary I must say.

What is also interesting is that as per Archive.org, though the CIIL site has been around since March 1 2000, the page "CIIL: A Legend" was first put up in October 2011 (when the content was already stale by ten years) - reflects the sorry state of affairs in government institutions which was also the point of discussion in another thread recently.

https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ciil.org
https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.ciil.org/aboutlegend.aspx

Thanks, Nityanand
 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

"na eva hi loke na
anyasmin vede ardhaḥ ekāraḥ ardhaḥ okāraḥ vā asti "

 

Reason for Devanagari system developing the way it is now.

 

"chandogānām sātyamugrirāṇāyanīyāḥ ardham ekāram ardham
okāram ca adhīyate : sujāte aśvasūnr̥te , adhvaryo odribhiḥ sutam , śukram te
anyat yajatam te anyat iti . pārṣadakr̥tiḥ eṣā tatrabhavatām "

 

Reason for why Patanjali amazes all for his meticulous observation. To Chomsky's vocabulary, descriptive adequacy of Sanskrit grammar has observational adequacy behind it.

 

Thanks for the citation and reference. 

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Not connected to the central focus of the thread. Just for the sake of record :

 

http://www.ciil.org/GIACIILAboutourselves.aspx has the words: "The Central Institute of Indian Languages was established as a sub-ordinate office of the Ministry of Human Resource Development, Department of Higher Education, Government of India and started functioning w.e.f. 17th July 1969."

 

"the sorry state of affairs in government institutions which was also the point of discussion in another thread recently" is, among other things connected to 1. the legacy of a prosocialist mixed economy (with a pampered public sector) which is now being replaced by a promarket mixed economy (with a pressurised public sector lamenting missing the good old days) 2. the bottom rank of humanities among the fields of learning even within the private funding networks. 3. a general persistence of the developing country conditions of relegating 'non-productive' areas of study to back seat and the resultant dejection of people working in those areas etc.

 

But all this is a different trajectory of discussion.

 

I for one, find platforms such as BVP successfully contributing to rejuvenating and inspiring even the most dejected lot.

 

Let us be optimistic about the future.

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044