How to write special vowel of Sanskrit in English?

[Narayan Joshi]

Respected scholars, Namaste!

Referring to the book, “Sanskrit Grammar” by R.G.Bhandarkar

(Bharatiya Kala Prakashan,Delhi, revised edition 2007), the special Sanskrit vowel I is transliterated as ( ļŗ ) (No.1) while in other books it is simply ļ (No.2) Then which one is correct No.1 or No.2? I also attached PDF of this posting.

Please help. Thanks. NRJOSHI

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Joshi,

     The common Roman transcription for लृ is "ḷ", namely the character for L with a dot underneath.  However, in some older works of Indo-European linguistics, all vocalic consonants are written with a small circle underneath the character.  This is not a common practice any longer.  The transcription "lṛ" for लृ is a mistaken transcription, as there is no "r" in लृ, but it is simply a vocalic form of ल.  The actual phonetic composition of ऋ लृ has been discussed in works of Sanskrit grammarians and phoneticians, with some differences of opinion recorded.

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

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[K S Kannan]

In agnim īḷe purohitam,

if ḷ stands for ळ् ,

should not  lṛ stand for ऌ ?

[Narayan Joshi]

May 10, 2017

Thanks you Prof M. Deshpande. My doubts are cleared now. nRJOSHI

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Kannan,

     You have raised a good question.  If one uses "ḷ" for ळ, then how should one represent लृ?  One way I have done this in some of my publications is to represent लृ with "l" with a small circle underneath it, rather than a simple dot.  This is what one finds in old work's like Wackernagel's Altindische Grammatik.  But most Sanskritists are not concerned with representing ळ, and therefore represent लृ with "ḷ".  The special diacritic fonts that I had designed myself had the provision to represent "r" and "l" with a small circle underneath, but those fonts were not unicode fonts, and therefore I can no longer use them.  Ideally, we need to distinguish between  ळ and लृ in Roman transcription.  In any case, the transcription "lṛ" is phonetically quite misleading in my view, since there is no "r" in लृ.

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[S R Ivaturi]

Sir,

It depends on the scheme of transliteration one uses. There can be two (or more also) possibilities.

1. If ऋ is represented by ŗ then ऌ should be ļ, and ळ can be L

2. If ऋ  is represented by R, then ऌ should be L, and ळ can be ļ.

The first convention is preferred as R is for a second र (ఱ) in Telugu etc.

However, there is no standardization in this regard and the various schemata such as ITRANS etc. have their own conventions.

Thank you

Dr. I. Srinivasa Rao

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Here is an extract from the Table of Contents of the first volume of Wackernagel's Altindische Grammatik, where the vocalic r and l are represented with a small circle under these characters.  I am looking for a Unicode font that can show these diacritics.

Madhav Deshpande

[K S Kannan]

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

Has anybody contemplated on the addition -

and the consequent pronunciation/representation/transliteration - of the vowels ṛ, Ṛ (ie. the long ṛ), and lṛ 

to the consonants r, l, and ḷ ?

[K S Kannan]

And the plutations where valid?

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Please note that there is no र् sound in ऌ. Please do not write this as लृ

thanks

Shrikant Jamadagni
Bengaluru

On Thursday, 11 May 2017 9:43 AM, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

And the plutations where valid?

On Thu, May 11, 2017 at 9:40 AM, K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

Has anybody contemplated on the addition -

and the consequent pronunciation/representation/ transliteration - of the vowels ṛ, Ṛ (ie. the long ṛ), and lṛ 

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

I guess Google Input Tools are Unicode. And when using Google I get लृ as the topmost option when typing "lR".

Also at http://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/monier/ I get क्लृप्तिः as Devanagari Unicode output on typing "klRptiH" which is taken to be Harvard-Kyoto Input. 

It seems Harvard-Kyoto is fairly free from diacritics and hence as much simple and straightforward, yet gives good Devanagari Unicode Output.

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Also note Hex codes in the Unicode encoding.

090C = ऌ

0961 =    ॡ

In Win XP I type the first one as 090C followed by alt+x combination. The second one as 0961 followed by alt+x combo.

 

Shrikant Jamadagni
Bengaluru

[Shreevatsa R]

There are two reasonably standard Roman-script-with-diacritcs conventions used for transliterating Sanskrit:

1. IAST (the International Alphabet for Sanskrit Transliteration): in this one, 

अं ऋ ॠ ऌ ॡ are represented by aṃ ṛ ṝ ḷ ḹ respectively (underdot), and ळ is not represented.

This is the one more frequently used by Western Sanskritists.

2. ISO 15919 (Transliteration of Devanagari and related Indic scripts into Latin characters): in this one,

अं ऋ ॠ ऌ ॡ are represented by aṁ r̥ r̥̄ l̥ l̥̄ respectively (circle under the letter, and overdot for anusvāra), and ळ is represented by ḷa.

This one is not much used in practice (as far as I know), but it exists.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=ISO_15919&oldid=776160038#Comparison_with_UNRSGN_and_IAST for a comparison.

(One may also be interested in the book "Linguistic Issues in Encoding Sanskrit" by Peter Scharf and Malcolm Hyman, available here: http://sanskritlibrary.org/Sanskrit/pub/lies_sl.pdf)

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shreevatsaji,

     How did you produce "r̥ r̥̄ l̥ l̥̄"?  What font?  This is what I have been looking for.

Madhav Deshpande

[Shreevatsa R]

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

To produce those characters, what one needs is not precisely a font per se, but an "input method". Once the characters are entered into wherever they should be (such as the body of an email or text file), they will be displayed/rendered using whatever fonts the reader has available on their system. (For example, you may see the characters in a different font than I do, and yet both should see the same characters "r with ring below", "r with ring below and macron above", etc. -- and it is even possible that someone who doesn't have a suitable font installed will see boxes, though that is thankfully becoming rarer these days.) In this case, if you were able to see the characters, it means you already have whatever fonts are needed.

To actually produce the characters: one could produce them by 

(1) copy-pasting from some document where they are already present, (plain text files or web pages in your browser are best, such as the Wikipedia page I linked earlier),

(2) using a transliteration tool, (many years ago I wrote a couple of transliteration tools for myself: http://shreevatsa.appspot.com/sanskrit/transliterate.html / http://shreevatsa.appspot.com/transliteration/version2.html -- and in this case I copied from the second one of them),

(3) using a particular input method: this will vary by operating system; for example on Windows one can hold down Alt and type +0325 to input the "combining ring below" (http://www.fileformat.info/tip/microsoft/enter_unicode.htm). Thus to produce r̥̄ one would type r, then hold down Alt and type +0325 on the numeric keypad (and release Alt), then hold down Alt and type +0304 (and release Alt).

Needless to say, none of the above methods may be convenient if one needs to use these characters frequently. For this, one installs an "Input Method Editor" (by any other name) that is specially designed for the input one usually needs. (E.g. on Mac OS X I use a modification of "EasyUnicode" from http://www.tipitaka.org/keyboard/ to input IAST characters, but those don't include r̥ r̥̄ l̥ l̥̄ — as I need those characters only very rarely, I use one of the other methods. But it could be made more convenient if necessary...)

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shrivatsaji,

     Thanks for your detailed response.  I have been using the "EasyUnicode" keyboard for Mac, but as you say, it does not include "r̥ r̥̄ l̥ l̥̄".  Will see if I can produce an edited version of "EasyUnicode" that will allow me to produce these combinations.  I have done keyboard editing previously using Ukelele.  Will try this again.  Best,

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[K S Kannan]

My question has remained unanswered -

regarding the combinations of 

the particular consonants with particular vowels

(r/l) + (r̥/ r̥̄/ l̥)

(6 combinations)

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Since स्थितस्य गतिश्चिन्तनीया ,we should see if there are words with those combinations. 

Or 

We should see if there can arise such sandhi requirements in new word-combination or morpheme-combination needs. 

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Professor Kannan,

     If I understand your question correctly, it has two dimensions.  First, are the consonants r and l involved in the constitution of the vowels r̥ and l̥.  According to Patañjali, the vowel r̥ is made up of two aj-bhaktis "small or extra short vowels on both sides of a consonantal r.  This is often represented as ƏrƏ.  This representation is evidently similar to how the vocalic r is represented in the old writing of Avesta (but I don't have first hand knowledge of Avestan writing).  The constitution of vocalic l̥ would be something similar, with a consonant L flanked by two aj-bhaktis.  The commentaries on Pāṇinian grammar sometimes also talk about varieties of r̥ and l̥, with two r-s and l-s inside.  So there is some variation in the conceptions about the constitution of these sounds.  

    The second question, if I understand correctly, is if the consonantal r can be combined with a vocalic r̥.  Such a combination does occur in the word निर्ऋति, and that is a rare combination.  The actual use of l̥ (लृ) is found only in the forms of the root kl̥p (क्लृप्).  

    That is the best that I can say in response to your questions.  With best wishes,

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[dhaval patel]

There has been contemplation on non ambiguous encoding of Sanskrit alphabets. SLP1 and WX are such encodings.

For respected Paturi ji, the following word has the sequence.

SLP1 - nirfti

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I tried this hypothetical case through http://tdil-dc.in/san/transliteration/index_dit.html

halxkAra

हलॢकार

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Can that tried for all the combinations considered by Prof. Kannan, at least hypothetically?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Can that be tried for all the combinations considered by Prof. Kannan, at least hypothetically?

not

Can that tried for all the combinations considered by Prof. Kannan, at least hypothetically?

[S. L. Abhyankar]

मन्येऽहम् 

1. स्वराणामास्याः पञ्च (1) कण्ठे (2) दन्तेषु (3) ओष्ठयोः (4) तालौ (5) मूर्ध्नि 
   
2. स्वरेषु अ कण्ठ्यः, इ दन्त्यः उ ओष्ठ्यः ऋ मूर्ध्न्यः लृ तालव्यः |
   
3. यतः ए-ऐ अ-इ-योः गुणवृद्धी एतौ कण्ठ्य-दन्त्यौ | तथा ओ-औ कण्ठ्यौष्ठ्यौ | 
   
4. ऋ-लृ एतयोः गुणवृद्धी प्रायः अशक्ये | 
1. तयोर्विषये "(r/l) + (r̥/ r̥̄/ l̥) (6 combinations)" एतावतो विचारोऽपि प्रायः क्लिष्टः अशक्यः वा | 

अपि साध्विदम् ?

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

 

In this thread of discussion, several related yet complexly intertwined issues  are surfacing : The complex intertwining  is on  (a)    Identifying   the  Script and Scripting Logic of   Primary, Combines and Conjuncts Sounds of Samskrutham,   used in Bhashaa and Chandas  documents by Voice First and then in several indic languages and later in to Latin scripts and even later in to IPA notation / Fonts/ Latin conventions  hybrids of Roman Alphabets , called IPA notations.   This will help to understand the  PRINT TEXT, transmit the  Voice-Visuals in a language convention by which the devices and communications operate in the digital world.  Will this help to give  True reading and accurate pronunciation of the ‘ Human Voice behind the Scripted document’ ? – This is a major challenge.  Some of the team members do know of my initiatives since 2011 and my research inputs in this direction to progress  from ‘ Unicode’ to ‘   UNI-VOICE-Code ( =Universal Voice Code), an  initiative to journey in implementing the statement of previous century :Sanskrit is best suited language for computers’: HOW ?   

 

 Please write to me off -line if any one desires to be a part of this project.    

 

Here below are the  focused issues pointing to the ‘ Sthiti’  for which some ‘Sad-gati’  seems  to be shown, using the ‘ Samskrutham Shikshaa Shaastra’  and ‘ Lipi-Shaastra’.   

 

Mail quote-excerpts:

                   <Nagaraj Paturi :  स्थितस्य गतिश्चिन्तनीया ,..>

 

      and    < KS Kannan  : My question has remained unanswered - regarding the combinations of the particular consonants with particular vowels ….   And the plutations where valid …..  Has anybody contemplated on the addition - and the consequent pronunciation/representation/ transliteration - of the vowels ṛ, Ṛ (ie. the long ṛ), and lṛ to the consonants r, l, and ḷ ? >  

 

      and    < Prof. Deshpande: <  I have been using the "EasyUnicode" keyboard for Mac, …. I have done keyboard editing previously using Ukelele.  Will try this again  .. To produce those characters, what one needs is not precisely a font per se, but an "input method".  …  But most Sanskritists are not concerned with representing ळ, and therefore represent लृ with "ḷ". >     

 

      and    <  SReevatsa : IAST (the International Alphabet for Sanskrit Transliteration…   . ISO 15919 (Transliteration of Devanagari and related Indic scripts into Latin characters):   >

 

      and     < Narayan Joshi : < special Sanskrit vowel I is transliterated as ( ļŗ ) (No.1) while in other books it is simply ļ (No.2) Then which one is correct No.1 or No.2? I       >

 

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

Error! Filename not specified.

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[K S Kannan]

I thank Prof Madhav Deshpande, Shreevatsa, Dhaval Patel, Nagaraj Paturi and others who have responded. 

The intriguing "advanced level" question is often asked by students of the very elementary classes who are taught the varṇamālā !