Dr. Jayaraman's critique of Bryant's book

[Ramesh Rao]

Learned folks,

India Facts has published an interesting and important critique of Edwin Bryant's popular book on the yoga sutras...

https://www.indiafacts.org.in/an-instance-of-hinduphobia-in-edwin-bryants-yoga-sutras-of-patanjali/

Your feedback would be appreciated.

With regards,

Ramesh Rao

[Aravinda Rao]

Namaskars, 

I have a different experience with the book of Edwin Bryant. I happened to teach the Patanjali Yoga Sutras along with the Vyasa bhashyam about three years ago. The website kymyogavaisaradi was extremely useful as it gave about a dozen commentaries on the Yoga Sutras. At that time I also used the book by Edwin Bryant and found it to be quite useful. He seems to have studied the text along with Vyasa's commentary from a traditional teacher and he also knew other commentaries, as he himself wrote in his introduction. 

Throughout the text he has tried to present the commentary as per Vyasa, but he has also quoted other commentators Vijnana Bhikshu and others. His favourite commentator seems to be Hariharanandaranya, though he has quoted from others too. I recommended Bryant's book in my classes.

 

I found that many of the concepts were explained in simple terms. This is particularly true of the third pada, dealing with mystic powers which defy reason, and there he tried to explain the phenomenon in as rational terms as possible.

I cannot comment on his observations about our swamis getting into scandals because it is something noted by others too, such as Philip Goldberg. I do not see it as Hinduphobia. It appears to be a case of Anglophilia in our swamis. 

I could find a few minor errors in translation of certain sutras but I did not note them systematically so as to present them now. I also found that some abstruse passages of Vyasa were omitted. I read every word of the text and admired him for his patient study and presentation of the subject.

My classes on the Yoga sutras is in the series starting with the link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ob-XEZV4zJs

Aravinda Rao

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[Yogananda CS]

Namaskara,

Dr Jayaraman has put forth his argument with a clear example from the book. Dr Aravinda garu, how would you interpret that part?

Regards. . . . . .yoga

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[Bijoy Misra]

Friends,

Ed Bryant is a devout ISKCON devotee and operates himself as a Hindu.  He spent

many years in India during his youth as  a part of ISKCON. He did his thesis doubting

the local theories on Aryan migration and his book on the subject is a required

reading by all.  He was a young Faculty member here at Harvard but was against

the grains.  He went to Rutgers.  I associated with him in producing the Krishna book

through Oxford twenty years ago.  I would think his comments about the aberrations

of various "gurus" are genuine.  ISKCON Itself goes through such scandals.  I have

also Ed's book in my Patanjali classes and have found it as a useful resource.  I have

not been in touch with him for five or more years.  He can be approached and he can

explain the background of his comments if you think necessary.. 

Bijoy Misra

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[Aravinda Rao]

Namaskara Yogananda ji,

I follow the line एको हि दोषो गुणसन्निपाते निमज्जतीन्दोः किरणेष्विवाङ्कः. While I have no acquaintance with the writer, my tendency is to accept criticism. I cannot call a person a Hinduphobe even if he disagrees with us up to fifty percent. In fact, I reacted because Prof. Ramesh Rao invited for remarks and also because I found the book useful. The writer has also quoted extensively from the Gita to make a comparative study, which shows that he has interaction with traditional scholars.

Regards,

Aravinda Rao  

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[Ramesh Rao]

Learned folks,

If I may, instances of Hinduphobic language, or language diminishing or targeting Hindus or Hindu practitioners, or attitudes toward Hindu practices need to be pointed out, not because we seek to claim "purity" but because we have been the target of both overt and covert attacks on us, ours for a long, long time.

As to the instance of Bryant offering an apology for and commenting upon the errant behavior of some Hindu yoga teachers or gurus in a book on the yoga sutras, one can very well argue, as Dr. Jayaraman does, that it is both uncalled for and maybe an instance of both conscious and subconscious bias. 

Shall we say, in academic commentaries on Catholicism/Bible or Islam/Quran what if authors preface their books with "millions, if not tens of millions of chldren have been molested by Catholic priests, the Bible has been used to seduce members of other cultures to despise and demonize their own tradtions, and the Quran has been used by kings, generals, and Muslim priests to depredate people and their abodes across the world...", would they be accepted for publication?

One can argue that Bryant warning about and apologizing for the errant behavior of a few ignores the many realities on the ground about seekers and givers, about the wanton sexualization of yoga in the West -- where skin-tight clothing for men and women are de rigueur in yoga studios -- could be very much a temptation to the most stoic and the best trained. Why does he not mention the commercialization, sexualization, dilution of yoga and yogic practices in the West, and that these attitudes of the West have now made yoga practice in India and yoga practitioners in India ape the worst of what the West has to export in these matters?

We also know that our criticism/response can be both generalized and particularized: we can have a general appreciation for a person, his or her contribution to the study of a subject, but yet point out to particular mistakes, errors of judgment, and suspect attitudes.

So, do please keep the comments coming because we need to debate these matters -- lest we become either hyper-sensitive or callous about what we claim as ours and who we claim to be.

With respectful regards,

Ramesh Rao

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 8:38 AM Ramesh Rao <ramesh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Learned folks,

If I may, instances of Hinduphobic language, or language diminishing or targeting Hindus or Hindu practitioners, or attitudes toward Hindu practices need to be pointed out, not because we seek to claim "purity" but because we have been the target of both overt and covert attacks on us, ours for a long, long time.

As to the instance of Bryant offering an apology for and commenting upon the errant behavior of some Hindu yoga teachers or gurus in a book on the yoga sutras, one can very well argue, as Dr. Jayaraman does, that it is both uncalled for and maybe an instance of both conscious and subconscious bias. 

Shall we say, in academic commentaries on Catholicism/Bible or Islam/Quran what if authors preface their books with "millions, if not tens of millions of chldren have been molested by Catholic priests, the Bible has been used to seduce members of other cultures to despise and demonize their own tradtions, and the Quran has been used by kings, generals, and Muslim priests to depredate people and their abodes across the world...", would they be accepted for publication?

Prof. Rao,

That is a very good point. But I do wish this point had been explicitly made in the India facts article, because I must confess I hadn't thought about it from this point of view myself.

This reminds me of the "World Religions" class in my daughter's high school in Massachusetts (which is quite open-minded). The teacher, who is a nice person and open-minded, spent many lectures discussing the good points in all religions, but when it came to Hinduism spent the entire two sessions talking about snake charmers in India.

Ramakrishnan

[Ramesh Rao]

Please do write for us, Shri Ramakrishnan, and you could use my comment as the hook needed to expand upon that matter. 

We want a rigorous, vigorous focus on matters Hinduphobic, and we shall be an open forum for views across the board. 

In fact, a couple of months ago I invited people to write about changes needed in the modern Hindu ecosphere as the world itself undergoes major changes: from our views about the role of caste/jati and the need for any changes in "systemic casteism" (if I can pun on the "systemic racism" phrase) alleged by many to the role of women, the place and importance of rituals and practices, etc., and anything under the social/cultural/spiritual sun one is concerned about regarding matters Hinduphobic. It may be considered paradoxical to claim that we will publish on matters Hindu, and then turn around to claim we focus on Hinduphobia. I have an answer for that, but it too could be a prompt for someone to write about the paradox.

With regards,

Ramesh

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Sri Ramakrishnan,

I see you live in Massachusetts.  The school education is heavily biased.

It degrades further in high school and college.  It is further atrocious

elsewhere in the country.  We don't have the resource material to create

teachers' workshops in order to help create an appreciation.  Cultural

education is a massive disservice to our children by the parents who

get busy making a living.  We in India Discovery Center plan to host

teachers' focus groups late this year or spring next year to initiate

India education.  We are slow.  You can join us if you have ideas.

We particularly need people who can work with the teachers.  We

are creating resource material for the workshops. I am in Lincoln, MA

and we are mostly around Boston.

I must say that for small children, Shishu Bharati in Lexington is a

good resource.  I helped create curriculum there and taught for twenty

years, 1983-2003

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

 

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 10:51 AM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Vishal Agarwal]

In the particular context where Bryant gave the example of fraud Yoga teachers, he could have used the beautiful story of Rishi Saubhari from Bhagavatam. That is what I have used in my teaching.

Vishal

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[Vichitra Thandava]

This is a difficult subject to criticize either way.

While I have heard of Bryant, experience suggests Hare Krishna devotees tend to a bit dogmatic amd clubby in their attitudes similar to Abrahamics.  Prabhupad's books themselves can be read that way in parts.  Also, their major new temple in Mayapur has colorful and beautifully painted sculptures of many divinity, but...they openly categorize and grade them according to their tradition.. 

Example Mahadeva or Shiva is a "demigod" and presented thet way.  

In a sense, Tulsi Gabbard is plain speaking and vocal precisely because of perhaps her Hare Krishna background.  Prabhupad has taught them not to mince words when it comes to attacking non-Gaudiya Indic or non-Indic traditions.

While Dr Jayaraman is right to point out the apparent Hinduphobic slant in Bryant's writing, it is also important to consider his background from from the Hare Krishna movement and training. 

Others Indics have far more vigorously attacked Indic traditions they don't identify with, as have the likes of Dayanand Saraswati of the Arya Samaj or Jains. Why is this important?  These attacks too can be seen as Hinduphobic when not seen in their context. 

In the case of Hare Krishna, yoga is not particularly important to them.  One could even speculate that they feel competitively threatened by the various yoga groups that have gone from strength to strength in the west. In a related example, vven though BKS Iyengar and T Krishnamachari were ardent yoga teachers, their community, the Sri Vaishnavas, do not believe yoga is important.  Apparently, Ramanujacharya wanted to learn a specific yoga from his guru but the latter passed away before he could.  That is presented as the justification against the need for yoga. 

So, in the Bryant case, the complexity is how do you evaluate what he wrote independent of the Hare Krishna view of the the rest of Indic from a scriptural and theological perspective? 

That said, there are three types of deviant Indic gurus from times immemorial - the fraud, the semi-experienced and the fallen one.  The vast majority have always been among these.  The question I have had is what happens to their hapless disciples.  Even during Lahiri Baba's time in Benares, there were many who claimed to teach the yoga he taught whether unauthorized or without even a basis,right there in Benares. 

If you look at the history of Buddhist monasteries, from which the Christian one was copied nearly verbatim, they too had many deviants among them.  But the Christian ans Islamic evangelist groups, including the Catholics take the cake. 

However,  the issue here is that Indic scholars and writers do not in general, directly and focusedly attacks such abhorrent deviance among Islamists and Christians immediately... 

Neither in India, nor in the US or anywhere else.  That needs to change.   Why is the fear or lack of confidence behind that? What point is there lamenting or comparing Indic behavioral lapses with Abrahamics but only when attacked?  That makes it defensive when it should be far more easily be offensive.  But of course, that action should be as well organized as the Christians generally are. 

Vijaender 

PS. Nityananda is curious example.  He had many women disciples sign agreements saying making themselves available for sex can be part of their training. He ran from India when one of these women alleged rape as this becomes a matter for the court to interpret whether it indeed was or within the bounds of the contract.   But similar appellants  apparently lost in courts in the US against him. 

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[Vichitra Thandava]

Yeah Saubhari is a great example, especially for western audiences.  But Bryant did not. 

Vijaender 

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[Ramesh Rao]

Thanks for your comments Vijaender ji.

Offers much needed perspective.

Ramesh

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[Soumya Kumar]

Dr J Mahadevan’s critique of Bryant raises many questions, which have a bearing on the future of Indic practices when studied, appropriated and taught by Westerners. Some of the important ones are:

1. Can there be a yogi/guru other than a Hindu yogi/guru? 
2. Can a Westerner legitimately claim to be a guru as understood by Hindus when we consider it in the background of defining Bharata as karma bhoomi as against bhoga bhoomi? 
3. What qualifies a person as yogi if s/he attends church, accepts the doctrines of church etc. when seen from the perspective of Ishvara concept of Patanjala yoga?
4. If transplantation of yoga is possible, can we term it as - Patanjala yoga adapted to Christianity or Christian Patanjala yoga and so on? If this is possible, then Bryant cannot be called as Hinduphobic as the stature of Hindu yogis (sic) has to be above board more than that of so-called Western practitioners of yoga. 
5. Finally, can we legitimately block attempts by non-Indic people to appropriate Indic practices? How to distinguish between acculturation of westerners (for example) into Indic culture or appropriation by westerners rigorously? What should be the role of gurus/yogis who are eager to propagate yoga? 

With regards

Soumya Kumar

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[Vichitra Thandava]

There is no scope for integration of yoga into any Abrahamic religion though attempts have been made.  The very definition of yoga as "union" in various contexts is not compatible with Abrahamic dogma or the church and mullah interpretation of their scripture.

However,  a substantial subset of Judeo Christian scripture has been interpreted by yogis from the perspective of yoga, starting at least with Paramahamsa Yogananda, with some by Swami Vivekananda prior.  For example, the life and experience of Jesus has been documented assuming he was a Yogi.

With the exception of Rajneesh, no major Indic guru has commented extensively on Mohammad and the Koran. But he changed his positive view later in life.  Sri Sri Ravishankar wrote a book which he withdrew or substantially redacted after a public debate in person with Zakir Naik.  He would later say he felt physically threatened by the audience during the debate. 

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[L Srinivas]

> Apparently, Ramanujacharya wanted to learn a specific yoga from his guru but the latter passed away before he could. 

 It was actually his prāchārya, Yāmunāchārya, who showed up for his yoga class a trifle late. By then his yoga teacher had shed his mortal coils. Subsequently, when he is said to have expressed his desire to learn yoga, another  of his grandfather's sishyas issued the following rejoinder, "piṇam irukka maṇam ēṉ?". It's kind of hard to translate. Roughly it means, "why marriage for a dead body?". Marriage in the sense of union stands for yoga. The physical body was viewed as 'jaḍa' , therefore 'dead body'.

Not just the Vaishnavas, the Tamil Bhakti movement by and large did not think much of controlling the body as well as of techniques of intuiting the truth.

Hope this helps,

Srini