Different Gayatris for different Varnas?

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear List members:

As per The Shankhayana Grihya Sutras as given here-->

http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/sbe29/sbe29035.htm

Brahmins are taught mantra in Gayatri meter,

Kshatriyas in trishtubh

and Vaishyas in Jagati.

Is there a Grihyasutra/ a brahmakarma like compendium for each varna on how these mantras are supposedly applied?

For ex: It is well known that Brahmins are allowed to learn and teach the Veda, while the others like kshatriyas and Vaishyas are allowed only to learn the veda. However these days Brahmins are only allowed to learn and teach the Vedas.

When did this departure from ancient tradition start?

Can the vidvans throw some light on this?

Thanks,

Niranjan

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The footnote in the page referred by you has the following:

The Gâyatrî which the teacher shall recite to a Brâhmana is the same verse of which it is said below, chap. q, II, that it belongs to Visvâmitra (Rig-veda III, 62, to); the Trishtubh which is taught to the Kshatriya is a verse ascribed to Hiranyastûpa, Rig-veda I, 35, 2; the Gagatî which is to be repeated to a Vaisya is Rig-veda IV, 40, 5, belonging to Vâmadeva, or Rig-veda I, 35, 9, belonging to Hiranyastûpa. See the note on chap. 7, 10.

There was an older thread on Vais'yas and Sandhyavandana. 

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/bvparishat/c7YF6u8pWzI/SjJoL0dGCAAJ;context-place=pendingmember/bvparishat/apply

In that this post, 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/c7YF6u8pWzI/1JifnLZFCAAJ

shows that a Vaisya was taken as a student. 

The book cited in this post 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/c7YF6u8pWzI/SjJoL0dGCAAJ

shows that the mantra used by Vais'yas the same mantra of Savitri which is in Gayatreecchandas.

Different Saavitree mantras in different meters from different Vedas to different 'varNas' is not prevalent today. 

--------------------------------------------------

Vis'vabrahmaNas have been earning and teaching Vedas.

Veeras'aivas have been learning and teaching Vedas. 

There are many such realities that are not reflected by these texts.

---------------------------

If you talk of "these days", Arya Samaj has teaching and learning of Vedas by people irrespective of caste and gender. 

There are many new organisations like Gayatree Parivar taking Gaayatree mantra and Vedas across caste and gender. 

It is a different picture today. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Phani B]

 "Brahmins are allowed to learn and teach the Veda, while the others like kshatriyas and Vaishyas are allowed only to learn the veda."

This is not True. While I don't recall the exact sutra what is prescribed is one should learn from a Brahmana and if not possible from a Kshatriya and if not possible from a Vaishya. 

This is from Apastambha gruhya sutras. So as a corollary it follows that Kshatriyas and Vaishya's were also teaching. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Sir,

I do not consider Arya samajis or Gayatri parivar to be traditional in any sense of the term.

The swara for the Savita Gayatri by Sri Ram Sharma is so appalling that it cannot be mentioned in any respectable forum. This is the man who claims to have done 25 purascharanas of Gayatri and is touted as Yuga Rishi. These days many followers give the Rishi moniker too freely to their Gurus out of blind devotion. I guess this is part of the muddling in kaliyuga. Still respect the man for his attempt at popularising Gayatri, but this might be another case of the blind leading the blind.

The Veda is less than useless when rules of siksha, svara and chandas are willynilly bent and broken in the name of proliferation.

I have no quarrel with these people spreading the Veda, but it has to be passed on in pristine form!

Tradition would imply sampradaya that is unbroken ... nouveau traditions like the "naya swami"  moniker used by many like kriyananda and others like the veerashaivas would not count. Usually there is one powerful Guru who is certainly no Rshi and after that it dumbs down to a sub sect of the vast marquee that is considered Hinduism.

I am still unsure why kshatriyas japa in trishtubh mantra and Vaishya in Jagati is not prevalent. Rajputs  and other sects still identify as kshatriyas. Many like the chettiyars and Vishwakarmas still identify as Vaishyas. 

So why do these dvijas ignore their nityakarma?

ANd how can their mantras be in Gayatri when it is specifically mentioned that they use Trishtubh and Jagati?

A regional book in Telugu cannot supplant the vaak of the Grihyasutras.

There are many Tamil books that give sandhyavandana procedures that are totally divorced from the respective grihyasutra.

This is a recipe for disaster. 

If dharma is truly that which bears, isn't the nityakarma of the respective tradition the dharma of that varna/shakha? If this is ignored is it a surprise that society as a whole is heading down?

What then is the purpose of all these mattas ? Propagating advaita/ dvaita/ achintybhedhabheda  etc?

All the heads of these mattas do is revamp old temples and give pravachans on Bhagavan etc.

All this is nice, but without nityakarma there is no adhara for dharma.

Svarupalakshana is a result of chittashuddhi which is only possible by following nityakarma at a minimum. Not otherwise. 

 

I am confused. Does anyone know if any of  the mattas are doing anything in this regard? Brahmins are only 1% of the population. That leaves a lot of people who are left at a loose end. In another 10 generations even Brahmins will not know what their nityakarmas are. I see the lack of interest within the current generation of my own family. Why go far? 

This reminds me of Krishna's warning to follow svadharma instead of following paradharma.

Niranjan 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sir,

This is a forum of scholars. 

Yours is not an academic discussion. 

The thread is being closed. 

Regards,

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Please post if anyone has book references.

No opinions or adverse comments on individuals , pronunciations or organisations etc. are allowed.

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[Damodara Dasa]

||Hare Krishna||

Respected Niranjanji,
Pranams.

I have just few points to make here from sastras:

1. In kali-yuga different nitya-karma has been prescribed in sastras,
specifically in Bhagavatam -- it is chanting the Holy Names of Lord
Hari.
Check the attached PDF.
Also check Kali Santarana Upanisad at Link:
https://ia800601.us.archive.org/22/items/kali_santarana_upanisad/kali_santarana_upanisad.pdf

2. In Kali-yuga all the powers of individuals have reduced and are
constantly reducing and thus it is not surprising that for majority it
is not possible to have sufficient purity, piety, memory, speech,
determination, etc. to be able to continue the established nitya-karma
of varnasrama-system which needs broader varnasrama society in place
without which it is not possible for majority to stick to it.
References:
prāyeṇālpāyuṣaḥ sabhya kalāv asmin yuge janāḥ |
mandāḥ sumanda-matayo manda-bhāgyā hy upadrutāḥ ||SB 1.1.10||

tataś cānu-dinaṁ dharmaḥ satyaṁ śaucaṁ kṣamā dayā |
kālena balinā rājan naṅkṣyaty āyur balaṁ smṛtiḥ ||SB 12.2.1||

For more quotes read Srimad Bhagavatam, Canto 12, chapter 2

3. Moreover, the purity of lineage is also not sure in Kali-yuga and
thus it is not sure that a brahmana will born from a brahmana
(although it happened so in previous yugas). The reason is that
samskaras are not in place and thus ṣouls fitting to parent's or
lineage's varna is not sure to be placed in womb and thus everything
is mixed, which can rightly be called varna-sankara. Reference for the
principle of samkaras being required for purity of lineage are many
but I can refer to Bhagavatam:

saṁskārā yatrāvicchinnāḥ sa dvijo ‘jo jagāda yam |
ijyādhyayana-dānāni vihitāni dvijanmanām |
janma-karmāvadātānāṁ kriyāś cāśrama-coditāḥ || SB 7.11.13||

Thus in kaliyuga one has to be judged only by symptoms (lakṣaṇas) as
it clear later in the same reference:

yasya yal lakṣaṇaṁ proktaṁ puṁso varṇābhivyañjakam |
yad anyatrāpi dṛśyeta tat tenaiva vinirdiśet ||SB 7.11.35 ||

Commentator Sukadeva writes:
yadyapi prajāpatipravartitā varṇā mukhyāstathāpi
kālakṛtasaṅkarādidoṣatas-tan-niścayābhāve satyadi lakṣaṇena
tat-tat-kule brāhmaṇādi-niścayaḥ kartavyaḥ anya-varṇa-lakṣaṇaṁ dṛśyate
tarhi tena lakṣaṇenāpi taṁ varṇitaṁ vijānīyād-ityāha – yasyeti | yasya
puṁsaḥ varṇābhivyañjakaṁ yal-lakṣaṇaṁ yadyadi anyatra varṇāntare ‘pi
dṛśyeta tad-varṇāntaraṁ tenaiva lakṣaṇādinimittena vinirdiśet “na
vayaṁ viṣṇo brāhmaṇāḥ smo ‘brāhmaṇā vā ye yajāmahe” iti śrutiḥ
“jātiratra mahāsarpamanuṣyatve mahāmate ! saṅkarāt-sarva-varṇānāṁ
duṣparīkṣyeti me matiḥ | tasmāc-chīlaṁ pradhāneṣṭaṁ vidurvai
sattvadarśinaḥ” iti smṛtiścānusandheyā ||35||

Practically we are seeing this everyday in our gurukula -- boys from
same parents have different qualities to be engaged in different works
and qualities do not match even with those of parents. We are trying
to engage seeing their symptoms and so far so good, we are getting
some success.


Hope this helps clarifying some points.

Thankyou,
Hari Guru Vaisnava das,
damodara das

[Sri Raghava Kiran Mukku]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः।

@Vidvan Damodara Dasa:

I understand that the popular verses like "कलौ कल्मषचित्तानां पापद्रव्योपजीविनाम्। विधिक्रियाविहीनानां गतिर्गोविन्दकीर्तनम्॥" do not recommend नामसङ्कीर्तनम् as a substitute for नित्यकर्म (विधिक्रिया). Instead, they mean that the [only] salvation for is नामसङ्कीर्तनम्  for those who do not perform the prescribed नित्यकर्म (विधिक्रिया), be it due to lack of tradition or lack of knowledge or even lack of personal interest. The phrases like पापद्रव्योपजीवनम् explain why does this deviation from the prescribed duty is prevalent. It is expected that we try to reform ourselves by performing various prescribed duties, instead of lamenting that the deterioration is due to the effect of Kali.

My understanding may not be the final authority, I would gladly accept the guidance from the scholars on the list. शिष्टाः प्रमाणम्।

Dhanyo'smi

Raghava

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Sri Nagaraj Sir:

I apologise for the "rant" but it was not directed against any person or organisation.

My observations on lack of svara are objective enough to be validated independently without taking my word for it.

I am sincerely looking for references and sources that clarify the root issue.

Dear Sri Damodaradasa

I have read the Srimad Bhagavatam and I have a different opinion on what the text says that is different from the Gaudiya version.

I refrain from developing the theme of nityakarmas as seen by Gaudiyas so as to avoid breaking forum rules regarding keeping a discussion single threaded and On Topic.

I agree with some of your comments on children with different values/ talents being born to parents and varna sankara.

I'll just leave you with a single statement reason for my not pursuing the Gaudiya version here. Gaudiyas follow the pancharatara system which is like an exception to the main Vedic path and hence it constitutes a different paradigm to the tradiitonal Vedic school of thought. 

Yes we live in kaliyuga which is filled with untruth and hypocrisy, but NOT everyone is born so and a small minority do manage to uphold the highest virtues upheld in earlier Yugas. Even in dvapara you had Duryodhana and Dusshasana --I am sure you will agree many in kaliyuga are better vessels than these two. 

So a path is usually a horses for courses choice in sanatana dharma rather than a blanket prescription for all. This is where sanatana dharma differs significantly from the abrahamic traditions. In sanatana dharma the devotion is to DHARMA and not to God directly. The understanding is that dharma which constitutes the body and soul of the supreme being if protected, God is automatically pleased and drawn to us.

Thanks again for your contibution.

Niranjan

[Damodara Dasa]

||Hare Krishna||

Thankyou Raghava ji and Niranji for your inputs. My small points for
consideration:

>> So a path is usually a horses for courses choice in sanatana dharma rather than a blanket prescription for all.

Blanket prescription for all is not bad. It is always esatblished by
sastras itself seeing the eligibility of people in general for
different yugas. Thus we see in sruti itself, Kali Santarana Upanisad
that for Kali-yuga the only path left for liberation is
nama-sankirtana.

Blanket prescription for all is also very logical. If you are sure
that 95% out of all people who will come for your class are of level
of Standard 4th, you are not going to prescribe test paper which is
fit for Standard 12th.

Also eligibility (adhikara) for following different types of karma is
derived from one's prarabdha and for majority of souls taking birth in
kali-yuga prarabdha is quite sinful. Thus they do not have the
eligibility to immediately take up the vedic path that recommends
upanayana etc. Thus pancaratriki vidhi is recommended.

Thus, say if I am to consider what should I follow (or my child
follow), I should consider that there are much higher chances that I
do not have adhikara for taking up path of varnasrama as it was
followed in vedic times through upanayana, gayatri, agnihotra etc.

One should also keep in mind that nama-sankirtana is not a non-vedic
path. This process was also there with other nitya-karmas but in
kali-yuga only this has remained possible (for majority).

Regarding nama-sankritana as nitya-karma for kali-yuga, nitya-karma
has the result of providing liberation and nothing else. In kali-yuga
only thing that does it is nama-sankirtana and thus it is nitya-karma.

It is a fact that deterioration is due to kali-yuga and all sastras
confirm this. It is not just lamentation but sastras also give
solution for it -- nama-sankirtana. Thus it is not that we should just
sit silent thinking that kali-yuga has so many defects, but we should
take up the solution provided by sastra itself. For instance if
doctors in city say that currently there is epidemic of dangue and
everyone should take the vaccination otherwise one won't be saved,
then obviously get vaccinated. Similarly vaccine for kali-epidemic is
nama-sankirtana according to sastra-doctor, and he has said that other
vaccine will not work now as you won't be able to take it properly. In
such a case it won't be proper to argue that we will try to make
situation better so that the other vaccine work and not take the
recommended vaccine.

Hope it makes things clear.

Note: My point here is not to force someone to take up devotional
service, but to point out the reasons (as per sastras itself) for this
lamentable condition of people not able to take up nitya-karmas etc.
Similar lamentation was predicted by rsis who assembled at
Naimisaranya and they discussed this issue and came to conclusion
which was Srimad Bhagavatam.

Thankyou,
Hari Guru Vaisnava das,
damodara das

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Sri Damodara Dasa:

I have no issues with namasankirtana.

Kindly avoid deviating from the root of this thread and keep your posts germane to topic.

I will be interested in your inputs specific to the questions I have raised in my first question.

My question is regarding the classic Vedic paradigm related to Grihyasutras as applied to Kshatriyas and Vaishyas.

I am not seeking information on the Gaudiya world view of which I am elaborately and intimately familiar.

Thanks again for all the review.

As for the rest, kindly start a new thread and those interested in pursuing that line of thought will freely join.

Warm Regards,

Niranjan

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Different mantras in different chandas makes a lot of intuitive sense.

The chandas-devatas match up as follows:

Gayatri- Agni

Trishtubh- Indra

Jagati-Vishvedeva

as per KYV.

Agni is considered the mouth of the Devas and this ties in with the Purusha sukta that references "ब्रा॒ह्म॒णो॓‌ऽस्य॒ मुख॑मासीत्" also Agni is the first priest ("ॐ अग्निमीळे पुरोहितं")

Indra is King and referenced as  rajanya and not explicitly as kshatriya "बा॒हू रा॑ज॒न्यः॑ कृ॒तः"
Vishvedevas may be considered as a unified form of the cosmic trinity as exemplified in the cow which was considered an embodiment of all the divinities and Vaishyas were essentially protectors of cows.

Also the Vishvedevas at some level represent the complete expansion of shakti representing multiplicity / abundance / wealth and so on. "ॐ गौ॒रीर्मिमाय सलि॒लानि॒ तक्ष॒त्यॆक॑पदि द्वि॒पदी॒ स चतु॑ष्पदी । अ॒ष्टाप॑दी॒ नव॑पदी बभू॒वुषी॑ स॒हस्रा॑क्षरा पर॒मॆ व्यॊ॑मन् ॥"

Just my 2 cents.