A scientific Challenge to the Aryan Invasion Theory
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Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 7, 2019, 12:56:28 AM9/7/19
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Yesterday's news coverage in The Hindu;
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Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 7, 2019, 1:00:36 AM9/7/19
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ajit.gargeshwari
Sep 7, 2019, 1:16:08 AM9/7/19
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Quatin from a mail Received
The paper is behind paywalls — a Science specialty — but there is a
direct link to the pdf at the Reich lab webpage. Magnificent maps and
multiple summaries as well (check out Box 2. Summary of key findings)!
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 7, 2019, 1:17:30 AM9/7/19
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'Quatin' should be read as 'Quoting'
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
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Achyut Karve
Sep 7, 2019, 3:35:15 AM9/7/19
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Dear Vidwans,
The DNA samples concerning South Asia are only from North Pakistan. Are no fossilized remains of humans found in present day India?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 7, 2019, 3:42:16 AM9/7/19
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Since its about AIT the focus of items on this thread will be of Pakistan Gujarat and that part of india. The papers are highly technical in nature and will be of only general interest to scholars who have specilsed only in Sanskrit with less exposure to the highly specialised and multi disciplinary background needed to get these frontier researches in the perspective and context required
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Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 7, 2019, 4:28:25 AM9/7/19
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Sri Ajit -ji is probably responding to Sri Achyut-ji 's post.
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 7, 2019, 4:52:29 AM9/7/19
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Let the thread continue. I wrote because I still remeber when Prof witzel was talking about horse and wheel issues a scholar asked ate there mention of cats and the Professor had to answer
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Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 7, 2019, 4:56:24 AM9/7/19
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I will search for the cat post in the old BVP threads.
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विश्वासो वासुकेयः
Sep 7, 2019, 5:06:25 AM9/7/19
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Just as a service to those who might be otherwise naively misled by the title, content and clippings from the original post:
This study only postdates massive Aryan invasion (/ migration or whatever) to after core IVC/ rAkhigarhi times.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 7, 2019, 5:37:51 AM9/7/19
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On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 2:36 PM विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
Just as a service to those who might be otherwise naively misled by the title, content and clippings from the original post:This study only postdates massive Aryan invasion (/ migration or whatever) to after core IVC/ rAkhigarhi times.
To put it a little more bluntly (as someone else
noted) - You either accept that core Rig Veda is newer than the
aforementioned time, or you accept that its core was composed (or
received etc..) outside greater India. You can't have both.
As a further corollary (if you pick the latter option) - the language of the original hymns is not necessarily exactly as we hear it now.
As a further corollary (if you pick the latter option) - the language of the original hymns is not necessarily exactly as we hear it now.
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Vishvas /विश्वासः
Vishvas /विश्वासः
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 7, 2019, 12:05:02 PM9/7/19
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Given the sweeping claims made in the paper (that are aligned 100% with AIT scenarios), it is pertinent that some questions be asked about this paper:
1. The authors cite mere 1 reference #61 to hang their hat on the premise that in ancient times, languages spread primarily by movements of people.
2. If the IE languages arrived in N India via Yamanya invaders who were all males, the same should have happened on the Iranian plateau which is Indo-Iranian. Unless I missed something, the paper is silent about how Iranian language spread on the Iranian Pleateau is mirrored by genetic movements.
3. The paper finds a strong positive correlation between Yamanya genes and Brahmanas (with a few exceptions). As the later came between 2000 BCE to 1000 BCE, which per the invasionist paradigms, is also equal to the time of the composition of the Rigveda, the assumption is that the varna system with rigid anuloma marriages was already in vogue in the Rgvedic times. This is yet to be demonstrated.
4. The Vedic scriptures talk about the 'Kuru-Panchala' Brahmanas, with the Panchalas themselves having been 'Srinjayas' in earlier times and located further NW. It is this region that forms the core area of original Kshatriya and Brahmana communities. It is precisely these regions that formed the areas devastated by Shakas, Abhiras etc., noted in Mahabharata and elsewhere. While some would want to date the Mahabharata to 3100 BCE, I have assumed dates closer to 1400-1300 BCE (which is one of the dates derived by archae-astronomy - I would not want to enter into a digression debate here). So why can't we assume that these Abhiras etc left a genetic footprint on the Brahmanas and Kshatriyas disproprtionately because of their geographical locale and in turn got absorbed culturally and linguistically themselves? After all, despite massive Islamic male invasions to India lasting several centuries, they could not convert IA speakers to IIr or Turkic, and could convert a mere 15-20% of the population till the 19th century to Islam. So why are we assuming that a group of Yamanya invaders could effect all over Pakistan, India etc., what Muslim invaders were unable to? Even in ancient India, we have had massive invasions by Greeks, Huns, Shakas (the Yuga Purana notes that they slaughtered 1 in 4 inhabitants in NW India, and the flight of many Brahmanas to peninsular Indian coincides with their invasions) but no massive replacement of language, religion or culture. It is not even worthy repeating here how the RV is silent about migrations from Central Asia, and is massively a NW Indian scripture. Also consider the fact that whereas even Kshatriya clans were raised from people from interior India, the Brahmana communities were rarely descendants from original inhabitants of the Kuru Panchala Saraswata areas (exceptions include Konkanasthas Brahmanas, Sorath Brahmanas of TN). The paper should has acknowledged that the Catholic Brahmanas (themselves Sarasvats) are excluded, but does not further discuss how the Konkanasthas, Mohyals, Dogras and other Brahmana groups fared genetically.
5. While talking about the languages spoken in the Indus Sarasvati area., they make two suggestions - one is the Indological viewpoint that proto Dravidian was spoken (and here, the authors reference the questionable view not controverted that Brahui language is indigenous to Baluchistan), or that a non Dravidian language was spoken there. If the latter, then what was that language, given that the authors do not seem to favor any other linguistic groups like TB or Austronesian? (thereby controverting Witzel's observations that the earlier layers of RV have no Dravidian loanwords but have para-Munda loan words)? The former is in face even more problematic because it does not explain how the Dravidian Harappans moved massively to W UP but without the proto Dravidian language.
6. One would have liked to see a listing of the Indian populations, specifically the groups like Abhirs, Jats and so on. Raw data is always very useful. How did the 80-90% non Brahmana population of UP, Bihar, Haryana etc. become Indo Aryan and Vedic?
7. The Indus Peripheral Cline is based on a few outlier individuals exhumed from burials from extreme NW India (Chitral and Swat - BTW, the modern Swatis are recent immigrants into that area) but we can not be sure that they represent the typical IVC type. Their AHG proportion is indeed quite high.
Genetic research is very laborious and therefore papers in this area typically have dozens of authors. Unfortunately, whosoever interpreted the data just adopted the path of least resistance. Perhaps because the corresponding author is at Harvard, and the overbearing influence of Hinduphobic people like Richard Meadow and Witzel can be easily surmised. If Vasant Shinde is a co-author of the paper, but says something different in newspaper interviews, that surely says something, especially when haters like Steve Farmer have commented off and on that Shinde has turned Hindu nationalist!
Vishal
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 7, 2019, 12:41:02 PM9/7/19
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A few comments on these good questions:
On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 9:35 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
After all, despite massive Islamic male invasions to India lasting several centuries, they could not convert IA speakers to IIr or Turkic, and could convert a mere 15-20% of the population till the 19th century to Islam. So why are we assuming that a group of Yamanya invaders could effect all over Pakistan, India etc., what Muslim invaders were unable to? Even in ancient India, we have had massive invasions by Greeks, Huns, Shakas (the Yuga Purana notes that they slaughtered 1 in 4 inhabitants in NW India, and the flight of many Brahmanas to peninsular Indian coincides with their invasions) but no massive replacement of language, religion or culture.
- Elephant and whale are both "Massive" - one is much more massive than the other :-)
- In terms of consequences: Islamic invasion of a pagan population (and one with a well established conservative social structure) is hardly comparable to the invasion of one pagan population over another (especially one with presumably lesser organizational/ conservative strengths).
or that a non Dravidian language was spoken there.
That's an attractive hypothesis I've heard good speculations about. Seemingly forms the substrate of Indo Aryan language.
If Vasant Shinde is a co-author of the paper, but says something different in newspaper interviews, that surely says something, especially when haters like Steve Farmer have commented off and on that Shinde has turned Hindu nationalist!
:-) And that he's into double-speak and changes tune as per audience (not the first time this kind of thing has happened, unfortunately - https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/yUHi_V9tS8Y/03qB1C8PCgAJ ).
--VishalOn Saturday, September 7, 2019, 04:06:29 AM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, September 7, 2019 at 8:58:09 AM UTC+5:30, Sati Shankar wrote:NamasteA scientific exploration ends the myth created artificially...Best WishesSati ShankarJust as a service to those who might be otherwise naively misled by the title, content and clippings from the original post:This study only postdates massive Aryan invasion (/ migration or whatever) to after core IVC/ rAkhigarhi times.--https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/f0367847-61d0-4ff8-833d-2aefd3ee88c8%40googlegroups.com
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Vishal Agarwal
Sep 7, 2019, 1:56:56 PM9/7/19
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The Yamnaya and Harappans were both pagans in your opinion, with the latter having lesser organizational/conservative strengths. These are both unsubstantiated assumptions. We do not know if the social and sacral structure of Yamnaya corresponded to that of the Vedic people; and archaeological evidence shows that the Harappans had a well defined social structure (high town, lower town, streets with agglomeration of people with specific occupations etc.). And what makes you think that Muslims had a less cohesive social structure as compared to Yamnaya?
The analogy given is quite opaque. As they say, "When in doubt, mumble." Unless you want to argue that Brahmanas were cruel, alpha males who imposed their language, religion etc on 80% people in the Indian subcontinent!
Vishal
Suresh Kolichala
Sep 7, 2019, 3:28:12 PM9/7/19
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On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 12:05 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Given the sweeping claims made in the paper (that are aligned 100% with AIT scenarios), it is pertinent that some questions be asked about this paper:1. The authors cite mere 1 reference #61 to hang their hat on the premise that in ancient times, languages spread primarily by movements of people.2. If the IE languages arrived in N India via Yamanya invaders who were all males, the same should have happened on the Iranian plateau which is Indo-Iranian. Unless I missed something, the paper is silent about how Iranian language spread on the Iranian Pleateau is mirrored by genetic movements.
Although the paper primarily focuses on South Asian population, they do mention there is no R1b or R1a in the ancient DNA they sampled from Iran, again arguing for a more recent movement of Steppe people from Central Asia into India and Iran:
"This shows that North Eurasian–related ancestry affected Turan well before the spread of descendants of Yamnaya Steppe pastoralists into the region. We can exclude the possibility that the Yamnaya were the source of this North Eurasian–related ancestry, as they had more Eastern European Hunter Gatherer (EEHG)–related than WSHG-related ancestry, and they also carried high frequencies of mitochondrial DNA haplogroup type U5a as well as Y chromosome haplogroup types R1b or R1a that are absent in ancient DNA sampled from Iran and Turan in this period (tables S93 and S94) (13)."
5. While talking about the languages spoken in the Indus Sarasvati area., they make two suggestions - one is the Indological viewpoint that proto Dravidian was spoken (and here, the authors reference the questionable view not controverted that Brahui language is indigenous to Baluchistan),
I do not believe there is any strong linguistic evidence to argue Brahui is not indigenous to Baluchistan. Furthermore, the genetic makeup of Brahui speakers shows a complete lack of H-haplogroup (which is native to India), and thus precluding a possibility of a recent migration of Brahui speakers from Central India.
Regards,
Suresh.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 7, 2019, 8:26:43 PM9/7/19
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On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:26 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
The Yamnaya and Harappans were both pagans in your opinion, with the latter having lesser organizational/conservative strengths. These are both unsubstantiated assumptions.
Not quite - You can see how Hinduism spread to south India, then to Indonesia / Cambodia etc.. Similarly, Hinduism more or less supplanted native traditions in North East India (before the advent of Christianity) - take the case of Meiteis. These did involve significant gene flow as well as meme-flow. In these cases, we observe the difference I stated. So, it makes sense to ascribe similar cause to a similar outcome in the distant past.
Even otherwise, the point is that one pagan population quite willingly accepts the cults and mores of another (eg: popularity of Isis cults in Europe, not to mention examples from India which I won't mention so as to not start another digression.)
We do not know if the social and sacral structure of Yamnaya corresponded to that of the Vedic people; and archaeological evidence shows that the Harappans had a well defined social structure (high town, lower town, streets with agglomeration of people with specific occupations etc.).
"Well defined social structure" does not imply equally strong religious conservative strength. Mongols (especially after the reorganization by the great lord Chinggiz) had splendid and effective structure - yet, they came to be more buddhist than shamanistic.
And what makes you think that Muslims had a less cohesive social structure as compared to Yamnaya?
I don't. The IA invaders had "dharma" and a highly effective conservative core, which gave them the edge. (I don't think it is some teme like chariots or gene like lactose tolerance which can explain the massive invasion from the Ural area into Europe and Asia.) This effective structure transferred over quite easily to each land they spread to, leading to secondary expansions such as that of the Dravidians into South India, NE India, SE Asia. Muslim invasion had to contend with this.
The analogy given is quite opaque. As they say, "When in doubt, mumble."
Well, since I sympathize with your predicament that objective Science consistently proves you wrong leading to trauma and comprehension deficit - I can help you a bit with your incomprehension. How "massive" was your "massive" Greek invasion (We have good records of Alex's "massive" army)? How massive was the Turk invasion relative to Indian population (ie how much genetic footprint do we observe among Indian mulsims today)?
Unless you want to argue that Brahmanas were cruel, alpha males who imposed their language, religion etc on 80% people in the Indian subcontinent!
That's the narrative our enemies will spin - quite the opposite of what we should say (rather than obsessing over some creationist type denialism).
VishalOn Saturday, September 7, 2019, 11:41:05 AM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:A few comments on these good questions:On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 9:35 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:After all, despite massive Islamic male invasions to India lasting several centuries, they could not convert IA speakers to IIr or Turkic, and could convert a mere 15-20% of the population till the 19th century to Islam. So why are we assuming that a group of Yamanya invaders could effect all over Pakistan, India etc., what Muslim invaders were unable to? Even in ancient India, we have had massive invasions by Greeks, Huns, Shakas (the Yuga Purana notes that they slaughtered 1 in 4 inhabitants in NW India, and the flight of many Brahmanas to peninsular Indian coincides with their invasions) but no massive replacement of language, religion or culture.- Elephant and whale are both "Massive" - one is much more massive than the other :-)- In terms of consequences: Islamic invasion of a pagan population (and one with a well established conservative social structure) is hardly comparable to the invasion of one pagan population over another (especially one with presumably lesser organizational/ conservative strengths).
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Bijoy Misra
Sep 7, 2019, 8:39:44 PM9/7/19
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This thread is deteriorating. Please discuss the the data, techniques, algorithms in the paper.
Be more analytic and scientific. Please avoid opinions on each other.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 7, 2019, 9:10:34 PM9/7/19
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On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 6:09 AM Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:
Please avoid opinions on each other.
Though I personally don't mind, I agree with this as a general rule - albeit once an opinion is offered, one is forced to respond in kind.
This thread is deteriorating.
This I disagree with. Posts by Vishal and Suresh are quite good.
If there is any deterioration in the thread, it is because of vacuous comments like "I don't see the point of this thread", "this thread is deteriorating" etc.. If someone has nothing valuable to contribute to a thread, it is best to move on.
If there is any deterioration in the thread, it is because of vacuous comments like "I don't see the point of this thread", "this thread is deteriorating" etc.. If someone has nothing valuable to contribute to a thread, it is best to move on.
Please discuss the the data, techniques, algorithms in the paper.Be more analytic and scientific.
Valuable discussion is possible at a higher level as well. Analysis and science is not mere discussion of plots and algorithms. I don't think this kind of preaching is warranted, unless the higher-level discussion misrepresents the underlying data (as it often happens on this topic in this forum - example by you in 2016).
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Vidula Hemant
Sep 7, 2019, 11:14:12 PM9/7/19
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Respected scholars,
Here is the link for the complete research article.
Thank you.
Vidula.
Pune.
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G S S Murthy
Sep 8, 2019, 12:57:16 AM9/8/19
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Another related link:
Thanks and regards,
Murthy
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My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :
and also my Sanskrit blog :
Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 8, 2019, 2:13:01 AM9/8/19
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A usual Prof Misraji has become personal advisor to all those write on the list.
The posts Suresh Kolochalaji, Vishal Agarwaji and Visvas Vasukuji are very interesting and am reading them with great Interest
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 6:09 AM Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALw-kjXnhQCaWGFunpgC9tcp_SZfAAk%2BZ5QbwYDCGUJi0uraKQ%40mail.gmail.com.
Irene Galstian
Sep 8, 2019, 2:26:29 AM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Ajit ji,
It’s not only about making valid or interesting points, which all the posters did, each in their own way. It’s just that in ordinary life there are certain norms of addressing a person who is over three decades senior to oneself. It doesn’t matter whether we agree or disagree with this person. Yes, BVP is an online community, but I hope that BVP still upholds certain basics of respect for elders.
Irene
It’s not only about making valid or interesting points, which all the posters did, each in their own way. It’s just that in ordinary life there are certain norms of addressing a person who is over three decades senior to oneself. It doesn’t matter whether we agree or disagree with this person. Yes, BVP is an online community, but I hope that BVP still upholds certain basics of respect for elders.
Irene
Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 8, 2019, 2:38:11 AM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Ireneji
Yes I do I remember a incident I and my cousins were having a talk in our house Living room on a topic which was controversial. My grandfather who was away suddenly comes in and listens for some time feels that the topic doesn't interest him quips and mocks at us and then we all without uttering a word go to our rooms We went t0 our rooms not because he asked us we did respect him Our doubts on the controversial topic remains and we discuss when he is not around.
Then my Grandfather called me and said probably its my fault I should not have interrupted your discussion for me as an elder, I should respond only if i am asked or if I felt something that you guys were doing was against the basic principles of Dharma in its widest sense.
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
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Kalicharan Tuvij
Sep 8, 2019, 4:36:38 AM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Namaste,
Some of my observations (based on understanding of mathematics used in the genetic study rather than genetics itself):
1) The latest genetic studies lend a good deal of weightage (Harvard is not supposed to that) to Indian civilisational by inferring "independent" origins of agriculture within the subcontinent. A good start, many other facets (origin of astronomy etc) directly or indirectly related to agri should come along.
2) Ancient DNA should be combined with present DNA to get the fullest possible picture. Underhill's study (sound logic) has already indicated R1a origin in Iran. This corroborates with well-understood westwards cline of P1 (immediate ancestor to R) from "Southeast Asia".
3) PCA analysis (fig A) in Narasimhan's reveals an Iranian-IVC cline typical of a unidimensional spread of Indus elites (non-brahmin related burial-types) towards Iran.
4) With more aDNA data from Northern India (looks unlikely with present tech, and because of cremation practice) the representative basis spread is more likely to match the present spread (indicated by the flanking evident in PCA by Iranian).
5) The Parashurama episode (invasion from Iran) bears out a fact that Brahmin-related ancestory derived certain amount of influence within the subcontinent from their western networks (and not from magical powers as popularly believed). This by no means means that Vaidika isn't representative of Hinduism in general (independent Vaidika studies themselves).
6) Swat valley (gAndhAra) population displacement, on the other hand, should be understood in the context of attested Central Asian incursions from 1000 BCE onwards.
7) With the rate scientific progress is going on, I think it may take another 200 years to come to mainstream understanding of complex state of ancestories in the subcontinent. Statistics, in particular, fairs poorly at grasping the disproportional effects that a minisculity of "data points" can exert.
On the Indian side of the story, Varna far from being an outcome of complexity/diversity, rather could be nearly at the cause of it.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 8, 2019, 4:47:11 AM9/8/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 11:56 AM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:
It’s just that in ordinary life there are certain norms of addressing a person who is over three decades senior to oneself. It doesn’t matter whether we agree or disagree with this person. Yes, BVP is an online community, but I hope that BVP still upholds certain basics of respect for elders.
I prefer to go by opinions such as : "गुणाः पूजास्थानं गुणिषु न च लिङ्गं न च वयः" and "न तेन वृद्धो भवति येनास्य पलितं शिरः। यो वै युवाप्यधीयानस् तन् देवाः स्थविरं विदुः।।".
Further, however old I become, I personally wouldn't want to be treated condescendingly: "Just ignore that old man, no use pointing out his errors" - that's just disrespect clothed in superficial respect. So, going by the golden rule, I don't treat others that way (though yes - I've been so advised offline). I wouldn't even want those fake prostrations. YMMV, of course. There is no single "right answer".
Further, however old I become, I personally wouldn't want to be treated condescendingly: "Just ignore that old man, no use pointing out his errors" - that's just disrespect clothed in superficial respect. So, going by the golden rule, I don't treat others that way (though yes - I've been so advised offline). I wouldn't even want those fake prostrations. YMMV, of course. There is no single "right answer".
Also, I don't think that the greatness of BVP will be enhanced by diluting discussion-effectiveness in favour of drama.
I do, of course, respect people to the extant that they are people (with extra consideration for their age, gender, role, expertise) - that does not mean that I don't/ shouldn't honestly point out errors or disagreements if I so desire. It is generally contrary to my nature to sugar-coat while doing so; and indeed also inappropriate/ ineffective in certain cases.
Bijoy Misra
Sep 8, 2019, 7:03:06 AM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Friends,
I gleaned over the rest of the discussion.
I do give opinion when I find that the norms of communication were not maintained.
It has been my difficulty that I have felt that BVP is an educational forum and not a social forum.
I do realize that we are in a new world of communication and virtual exchange.
Best regards,
BM.
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 8, 2019, 9:04:53 AM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
I wonder If Prof. Misrajis advise would be the same after reading these mails circulated in public domain
And the subsequent reply by the greatest Scholar to roam earth
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 8, 2019, 10:30:54 AM9/8/19
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Your examples below actually do not apply to the 'Aryanization' of 80% of the Indian subcontinent which involved a complete loss of original place names, language (even Kuiper's over-enthusiastic hunt for loan words in the RV yields a bare 4% of vocab in the RV that is 'non IA' in origin), religion/culture without any evidence in archaeology, literature, archeo-astronomy etc etc.
In Indonesia, they retained their original language despite ingress of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam albeit with a heavy borrowing from Indic languages. They have written traditions about arrival or Brahmins/Kshatriyas, and then Muslim merchants from India and what not. The movement of Indians into Indonesia/Kampuchea is clearly seen archaeologically. Ditto with Kampuchea. And even on the Indian side, we have customs like the Bali Yatra in Odisha.
The Manipur valley itself is like 500 times smaller than the area where IA norms spread; and the way Hinduism spread in that region with the strong push by rulers like Gharib Niwaz at the cost of local traditions is more of an anomaly as to how Hinduism spread elsewhere. The valley already had Ramanandis from ancient times, and there is plentiful evidence in literature as to how this all happened among the Meities. Plus they have preserved their language and so on. The Manipur valley and Indonesia/Kampuchea etc are outside of the Vedic core area of Kuru-Panchala.
The surviving Vedic literature is six times the length of the Bible and yet we do not see any hint of an invasion in them or any migration from Central Asia. Like I said earlier, if the Steppe genes are more prevelant in the Brahmanas, one must not fall blindly into the temptation of seeing Aryan invasions and instead explore the historical causes. The article talks about Tiwaris, Bhumihars and 'Pandits' without divulging much raw data. There was a wholesale massacre of Kshatriya clans during various foreign invasions in Indian history. In regions in NW India like Gandhara, Madra etc., there was a selective flight of Brahmanas and Kshatriyas into the interior of India and these regions had been exposed to foreign incursions considerably. It is a fact that Khatris, Mohyals (Gandhara Brahmanas), Kashmiri Brahmanas etc resisted conversions better than the masses and eventually moved towards Indian interior. Then you have the case of Kamboj community (found again, around Amritsar, Bikaner and other parts of N India) and even Shakdweepee Brahmans with whom the Bhumihars are often related (some say that the very surname 'Mishra' is due to this); or the Maagh Brahmins.
The spread of Vedic practices over N India can be explained better through data given in the Vedic literature itself and the archaeological data on progressive dessication of different sections of the Sarasvati River which led to migrations from the Indus Sarasvati region towards interior India on one hand and partially towards Turan/Gandhara along the right bank of Sindhu. Aridity happened only towards the very end in the upper Sarasvati regions - which were the abode of Puru-Bharatas, and hence, they were more effective in preserving their own religious traditions. No wonder their influence is dominating in the Rigveda.
And of course, I'd like to repeat that burials were nor the norm either in IVC, or in the Vedic culture. The skeletons from Rakhigarhi or Chitra/Swat are non representative of these cultures or culture.
Vishal
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 8, 2019, 12:23:37 PM9/8/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 8:00 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Your examples below actually do not apply to the 'Aryanization' of 80% of the Indian subcontinent which involved a complete loss of original place names, language (even Kuiper's over-enthusiastic hunt for loan words in the RV yields a bare 4% of vocab in the RV that is 'non IA' in origin), religion/culture without any evidence in archaeology, literature, archeo-astronomy etc etc.In Indonesia, they retained their original language despite ingress of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam albeit with a heavy borrowing from Indic languages. They have written traditions about arrival or Brahmins/Kshatriyas, and then Muslim merchants from India and what not. The movement of Indians into Indonesia/Kampuchea is clearly seen archaeologically. Ditto with Kampuchea. And even on the Indian side, we have customs like the Bali Yatra in Odisha.The Manipur valley itself is like 500 times smaller than the area where IA norms spread; and the way Hinduism spread in that region with the strong push by rulers like Gharib Niwaz at the cost of local traditions is more of an anomaly as to how Hinduism spread elsewhere. The valley already had Ramanandis from ancient times, and there is plentiful evidence in literature as to how this all happened among the Meities. Plus they have preserved their language and so on. The Manipur valley and Indonesia/Kampuchea etc are outside of the Vedic core area of Kuru-Panchala.
Good - the main point of these examples was to illustrate how Hindu memes, transported by their conservatives, more or less supplant native relatively-looser traditions with considerable ease - even with enthusiastic acceptance. Now, even if ALL the placenames are not sanskritized or if 100% of the language is AryAnized, the facts suffice to make the intended point. Filipino to Tamil, there are a lot (going well beyond half the vocabulary) of sanskrit/ IA loan words and ideas as you've noted. If you had an influx of scale similar to that of IA invasion of North India or Sinhala invasion of Lanka - you would see more drastic replacement after a millenium of settlement. As significant as Hindu migrations were to these other regions, they were not of similar scale.
The surviving Vedic literature is six times the length of the Bible and yet we do not see any hint of an invasion in them or any migration from Central Asia.
There are plenty of hints of steppe homes, which have been noted since the time of the brilliant BG Tilak. But, it won't do to bring them up because you'll easily do some interpretive gymnastics.
Like I said earlier, if the Steppe genes are more prevelant in the Brahmanas, one must not fall blindly into the temptation of seeing Aryan invasions and instead explore the historical causes.
The article talks about Tiwaris, Bhumihars and 'Pandits' without divulging much raw data. There was a wholesale massacre of Kshatriya clans during various foreign invasions in Indian history. In regions in NW India like Gandhara, Madra etc., there was a selective flight of Brahmanas and Kshatriyas into the interior of India
Elephant in the room is that Steppe genes are highly correlated with IA core memes and language. Unless you're arguing that somehow non-steppe-gene-carrying brAhmaNa-s were massacred out, you've got to admit that they were outside greater India before 2kBC IF you agree that aDNA extracted is representative (which you don't, but that's like grasping at straws at this point). Even if you say that IA core memes and language spread from IVC area west (where they were native) all the way to Iceland - you still have the problem that non-"steppe" Indian gene-lines clearly found in the region aren't found in old Europe.
Aridity happened only towards the very end in the upper Sarasvati regions - which were the abode of Puru-Bharatas, and hence, they were more effective in preserving their own religious traditions. No wonder their influence is dominating in the Rigveda.
As an aside, this tendency towards geographical determinism underplays true genius and greater virility the sages and warriors of kuru-pAnchala realm might have had (even according to extant religious traditions). Ditto with IVC collapse and IA invasion.
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Bijoy Misra
Sep 8, 2019, 12:26:51 PM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Ajitji,
I wonder myself about the excessive interest by some of the "western" scholars on matters relating to India.
To understand any culture is hard, and to understand India is particularly hard. Unfortunately a large amount
of literature has developed by superficial unscientific extrapolations without any respect to the culture or to
the people. I discovered this hard way and quite accidentally. There is hardly any western scholar who
understands India's philosophical roots. Everything is lumped as religion and then commented upon.
Where people came from is an obsession in the west. I do not know why people get into areas that
they have so little familiarity, many are wild in their assertions.
On the Indian side, people become reactive than analytic. India did lose her freedom to foreign invaders
some five hundred years ago and various impositions have been made. India has to gradually remove the
impositions and rediscover her freedom in thinking and her roots in culture. On the history of language,
customs and thoughts, Indian research remains unsystematic because of economic reasons. My thinking
is that the Indian scientists and scholars should create a new paradigm for independent examination than
reacting to what others are doing or follow the outdated free-hand methodology. The world has become
political for economic reasons, but India still has a message for the world. We can live this message in
our independent new world ignoring what others might think.
I agree it is lofty, but I think such is the task for the new generation. It is a personal view.
On my side, I am stuck with the examination of origin of speech leading to Paninian grammar.
We have many strong fundamental questions to research and find answers. It may take several
hundred years. Meanwhile the west will discourage because they lack the interest in the fundamentals.
People may reflect on the word आरोपित here. The self-examination of the west may take another thousand years.
Best regards,
Bijoy Misra
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Irene Galstian
Sep 8, 2019, 12:30:59 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Vishvas,
Could you please state your theory of what happened?
Thank you,
Irene
On Sunday, September 8, 2019 at 5:23:37 PM UTC+1, विश्वासो वासुकेयः wrote:
On Sun, Sep 8, 2019 at 8:00 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:Your examples below actually do not apply to the 'Aryanization' of 80% of the Indian subcontinent which involved a complete loss of original place names, language (even Kuiper's over-enthusiastic hunt for loan words in the RV yields a bare 4% of vocab in the RV that is 'non IA' in origin), religion/culture without any evidence in archaeology, literature, archeo-astronomy etc etc.In Indonesia, they retained their original language despite ingress of Hinduism, Buddhism and Islam albeit with a heavy borrowing from Indic languages. They have written traditions about arrival or Brahmins/Kshatriyas, and then Muslim merchants from India and what not. The movement of Indians into Indonesia/Kampuchea is clearly seen archaeologically. Ditto with Kampuchea. And even on the Indian side, we have customs like the Bali Yatra in Odisha.The Manipur valley itself is like 500 times smaller than the area where IA norms spread; and the way Hinduism spread in that region with the strong push by rulers like Gharib Niwaz at the cost of local traditions is more of an anomaly as to how Hinduism spread elsewhere. The valley already had Ramanandis from ancient times, and there is plentiful evidence in literature as to how this all happened among the Meities. Plus they have preserved their language and so on. The Manipur valley and Indonesia/Kampuchea etc are outside of the Vedic core area of Kuru-Panchala.Good - the main point of these examples was to illustrate how Hindu memes, transported by their conservatives, more or less supplant native relatively-looser traditions with considerable ease - even with enthusiastic acceptance. Now, even if ALL the placenames are not sanskritized or if 100% of the language is AryAnized, the facts suffice to make the intended point. Filipino to Tamil, there are a lot (going well beyond half the vocabulary) of sanskrit/ IA loan words and ideas as you've noted. If you had an influx of scale similar to that of IA invasion of North India or Sinhala invasion of Lanka - you would see more drastic replacement after a millenium of settlement. As significant as Hindu migrations were to these other regions, they were not of similar scale.The surviving Vedic literature is six times the length of the Bible and yet we do not see any hint of an invasion in them or any migration from Central Asia.There are plenty of hints of steppe homes, which have been noted since the time of the brilliant BG Tilak. But, it won't do to bring them up because you'll easily do some interpretive gymnastics.Like I said earlier, if the Steppe genes are more prevelant in the Brahmanas, one must not fall blindly into the temptation of seeing Aryan invasions and instead explore the historical causes.The article talks about Tiwaris, Bhumihars and 'Pandits' without divulging much raw data. There was a wholesale massacre of Kshatriya clans during various foreign invasions in Indian history. In regions in NW India like Gandhara, Madra etc., there was a selective flight of Brahmanas and Kshatriyas into the interior of IndiaElephant in the room is that Steppe genes are highly correlated with IA core memes and language. Unless you're arguing that somehow non-steppe-gene-carrying brAhmaNa-s were massacred out, you've got to admit that they were outside greater India before 2kBC IF you agree that aDNA extracted is representative (which you don't, but that's like grasping at straws at this point). Even if you say that IA core memes and language spread from IVC area west (where they were native) all the way to Iceland - you still have the problem that non-"steppe" Indian gene-lines clearly found in the region aren't found in old Europe.
Aridity happened only towards the very end in the upper Sarasvati regions - which were the abode of Puru-Bharatas, and hence, they were more effective in preserving their own religious traditions. No wonder their influence is dominating in the Rigveda.As an aside, this tendency towards geographical determinism underplays true genius and greater virility the sages and warriors of kuru-pAnchala realm might have had (even according to extant religious traditions). Ditto with IVC collapse and IA invasion.
And of course, I'd like to repeat that burials were nor the norm either in IVC, or in the Vedic culture. The skeletons from Rakhigarhi or Chitra/Swat are non representative of these cultures or culture.Vishal
On Saturday, September 7, 2019, 07:26:44 PM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishva...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 11:26 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:The Yamnaya and Harappans were both pagans in your opinion, with the latter having lesser organizational/conservative strengths. These are both unsubstantiated assumptions.Not quite - You can see how Hinduism spread to south India, then to Indonesia / Cambodia etc.. Similarly, Hinduism more or less supplanted native traditions in North East India (before the advent of Christianity) - take the case of Meiteis. These did involve significant gene flow as well as meme-flow. In these cases, we observe the difference I stated. So, it makes sense to ascribe similar cause to a similar outcome in the distant past.Even otherwise, the point is that one pagan population quite willingly accepts the cults and mores of another (eg: popularity of Isis cults in Europe, not to mention examples from India which I won't mention so as to not start another digression.)We do not know if the social and sacral structure of Yamnaya corresponded to that of the Vedic people; and archaeological evidence shows that the Harappans had a well defined social structure (high town, lower town, streets with agglomeration of people with specific occupations etc.)."Well defined social structure" does not imply equally strong religious conservative strength. Mongols (especially after the reorganization by the great lord Chinggiz) had splendid and effective structure - yet, they came to be more buddhist than shamanistic.And what makes you think that Muslims had a less cohesive social structure as compared to Yamnaya?I don't. The IA invaders had "dharma" and a highly effective conservative core, which gave them the edge. (I don't think it is some teme like chariots or gene like lactose tolerance which can explain the massive invasion from the Ural area into Europe and Asia.) This effective structure transferred over quite easily to each land they spread to, leading to secondary expansions such as that of the Dravidians into South India, NE India, SE Asia. Muslim invasion had to contend with this.The analogy given is quite opaque. As they say, "When in doubt, mumble."Well, since I sympathize with your predicament that objective Science consistently proves you wrong leading to trauma and comprehension deficit - I can help you a bit with your incomprehension. How "massive" was your "massive" Greek invasion (We have good records of Alex's "massive" army)? How massive was the Turk invasion relative to Indian population (ie how much genetic footprint do we observe among Indian mulsims today)?Unless you want to argue that Brahmanas were cruel, alpha males who imposed their language, religion etc on 80% people in the Indian subcontinent!That's the narrative our enemies will spin - quite the opposite of what we should say (rather than obsessing over some creationist type denialism).
--VishalOn Saturday, September 7, 2019, 11:41:05 AM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishva...@gmail.com> wrote:A few comments on these good questions:On Sat, Sep 7, 2019 at 9:35 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:After all, despite massive Islamic male invasions to India lasting several centuries, they could not convert IA speakers to IIr or Turkic, and could convert a mere 15-20% of the population till the 19th century to Islam. So why are we assuming that a group of Yamanya invaders could effect all over Pakistan, India etc., what Muslim invaders were unable to? Even in ancient India, we have had massive invasions by Greeks, Huns, Shakas (the Yuga Purana notes that they slaughtered 1 in 4 inhabitants in NW India, and the flight of many Brahmanas to peninsular Indian coincides with their invasions) but no massive replacement of language, religion or culture.- Elephant and whale are both "Massive" - one is much more massive than the other :-)- In terms of consequences: Islamic invasion of a pagan population (and one with a well established conservative social structure) is hardly comparable to the invasion of one pagan population over another (especially one with presumably lesser organizational/ conservative strengths).
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Vishvas /विश्वासः
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Achyut Karve
Sep 8, 2019, 12:49:52 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
What is so scienticfic about the article except the instrumentation involved in defining the gene. The rest is just speculation. It is like making a mountain out of a mole hill.
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 8, 2019, 1:13:03 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Namaste Misraji,
The task is clear, history espetially the narrative part of the history needs to be rewritten. The voices which are stifled and mocked have to be understood. Scholars can have and should have personal ideology but should not creep into their mainstream technical works. As and when leftists and colonial stains are removed the right voices will be heard and true picture will emerge. Forget foreigners or western scholars who have deep prejudiced and one sided writings several prominent Indian scholars started supporting the propagandists and devilish forces, the grand plan of vested foreigners who want to and would like to interfere and dominate on every sphere of our life including rewriting text books.
Hence this list is called Bharatiya vidvat parishad and Bharatiyas accept knowledge from all sides but true knowledge and not false propaganda of a few western scholars and Indian scholars.
Mounting evidences after evidences will be unearthed and propagandists false views will be exposed
This is not just a view but an emerging fact all happening for a better India.
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Kalicharan Tuvij
Sep 8, 2019, 1:48:12 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Something that I should have added in my last mail:
1) As I understand a lot of significant haplogroup diversification occurred in the plains of U.P. on the SE Asia - Iranian cline.
2) On intuitive understanding:
Europian ancestry comes out of "Father Iran" and "Mother Russia". I am not being literal though; Western attitudes towards these two powers even to this day (even when Iran has ceased to be the superpower it was) makes way for such intuition. My point is: this all makes sense at intuitive level, and is far from being convoluted. No one is saying that Indian genes went over to Western Europe; Indian culture (mostly language only) rode over the back of Iranian political power.
3) Indian researchers should focus on the ancestry of steppe people. And they should speak their minds (even if they believe in AIT) in the public (this is how progress is made). Also, since the genetic histories/ causes are not linearly separated (back and forth migrations), ANN techniques (or adaptations there of) should be adapted in genetic studies (ask your Maths departments).
Bijoy Misra
Sep 8, 2019, 2:45:35 PM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
I should have stated a point earlier.
Somebody becomes a physicist with the love of nature, somebody becomes a musician with the love of music.
Somebody becomes a dancer with the love of dance, and somebody becomes an artist with the love of art.
Invariably I have seen that the "professional" Indologists carry a distasteful attitude to the topic of their curiosity!
After first noticing this, I wanted to check why it is true. I have not found the answer, but I see ample evidence.
I do not know why some Indian scholars would proceed for contempt, it could be deeply political.
Any scholarship without deep liking to the topic of interest would not last.
E O Wilson here studies the bugs and finds the beauty! India as a historical object is cosmically beautiful!
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Irene Galstian
Sep 8, 2019, 2:58:40 PM9/8/19
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Professor Misra,
If you think certain Indologists have a distaste towards their subject, you've got to see how some Biblical scholars handle theirs.
A substantial bit of the so-called Biblical scholarship is little more than thinly disguised atheism. You could be reading hundreds upon hundreds of pages of such research and not find even a short paragraph that can enrich spiritually, even a little bit. Wellhausen himself realised that something was amiss in the procedure when he admitted that, while his job was to help train priests, somehow his style of presenting the subject was turning them away from their chosen vocation. As for anti-Semitism, Wellhausen was so legendary in that regard that it's superfluous to comment further. That didn't prevent him from being an extremely intelligent and learned scholar, however.
This business of distaste to all forms of otherness isn't just a reality within Indology. That said, I don't want to suggest that all Indologists behave in this way, only some, just as I don't want to suggest that all Biblical scholars can be indiscriminately lumped together.
Irene
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Vishal Agarwal
Sep 8, 2019, 4:11:40 PM9/8/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
I would like Vishvas Vasuki to summarize his position [ = Aryan invaders who formed alpha Brahmana elites in later times came to India after Mature Harappan circa 1900 BCE and brought with them the Vedic religion which then overwhelmed all indigenous cultures in the Indian subcontinent and mixed with them to form Hinduism with the Vedic orthopraxy as the overarching umbrella. Alongside, the native Indians lost all memory of Aryan arrival, lost their languages, place names or even memories of the same all over the region; while the Aryan Brahmanas completely omitted to mention in explicit terms how they overcame the non Aryans century after century. The RV is post 1500 BCE and was composed east of the Hindu Kush. Or the RV is composed largely W of Hindu Kush. The Aryans are originally from Steppe and were nomads. etc etc]?
As a non Brahmana, I just find it silly that only Brahmana Arya Rishis had the vitality to promote their culture even as an elite minority and overwhelm the language, religion etc etc of such a large land mass. To summarize my position:
Practically everything is possible on this earth. It is even possible that human beings are descendant from extra-terrestrial aliens. But how probable is it that this did really happen? Almost zero. My point is that a mere demonstration that the occurrence of a historical is possible is not a sufficient proof that it did occur. One also needs to demonstrate that the probability of that possibility having become a reality is high. In short, to establish a case, one must make it likely, not simply ‘not impossible’.
The conventional Aryan Invasion/Migration Theories and their new Siamese twins that are delivered each passing day imagine a unique situation in South Asia around 1500 BCE. It is a situation that is a simultaneous combination of several independent and improbable factors or events. Statistically speaking, such a resultant situation is even more unlikely to have happened than the individual events could have occurred individually. These theories basically advocate that –
1. The IA speakers preserved their voluminous literature, heritage and religion despite being on the move, even when passing through vast inhabited territories, something that is contrary to norm (with a few exceptions such as that of Polynesians).
2. The IA speakers managed to Aryanize the culture, religion, language of the indigenous population of an area of 3 million sq km., without leaving any literary, archaeological, flimsy and contradictory genetic, anthropological evidence. This is against the norm and very few exceptions exist.
3. The process is said to have been achieved without much violence or use of force. The ‘acculterated’ or ‘conquered’ peoples have no memory of this having happened. This is again against the norm.
4. A culturally inferior people are said to have overwhelmed a more advanced civilization. This is again against the norm.
5. Evidence from Geology and Archaeoastronomy contradicts the soft linguistic evidence.
6. South Asian cattle (zebu) appear around the same time in the Middle East that Aryans supposedly enter South Asia – movements in opposite directions.
Many other reasons could be cited to argue why the Aryanization of much of the Indian subcontinent around 1500 BC is a highly implausible scenario. At least, the existing body of evidence from various fields does not compel us at all to accept such a thing. This does not mean of course that the Indo-European speakers were indigenous to the Indian subcontinent and that this area is the original homeland of IE languages. Again, the existing body of evidence does not compel us to accept such a possibility being real or highly probable.
People want to hang their hat on 11 out of place skeletons from an area close to Chitral, and an isolated skeleton in Rakhigarhi when we don't even know if they are typical Harappans, and when we do know that burial was not the norm in IVC.
All the examples cited by you below are non relevant. The new example of Sri Lanka is even more telling. There is the Lankan tradition if Simhalese arriving from N India, and the language itself is IA with similarities to Gujarati etc; while the Tamils arrived and dominated the northern and eastern coasts of the island. The two squeezed out the original Vedda population. All this is anthropologically attested ('God, Apes and Fossil Men' by Kenneth Kennedy, 2000) and is attested by literature and many other means.
And here we have the RV in which the four fold Varnas are not even attested amply, with a more fluid social structure, and with a max of 4% non IA vocab, and ZERO names of flora, fauna, rivers etc outside of NW Indian subcontinent or even a memory of movements from Steppes or Kazakhstan etc despite what Tilak, Savarkar, Golwalkar etc believed. If at all IA languages came into India from outside, it happened in very remote, pre Harappan times when there was no noteworthy memory of these movements. None of the linguistic arguments necessarily support the arrival post 1900 or 1500 BCE. [For instance, the view that the word for the 'beaver' (babhru) was transferred to mongoose (nakula) in India is negated by Beaver fossils from Harappan periods from Baluchistan and Kashmir (just read the archaeological excavation reports) but not thereafter; and a mantra in AV mentions the two animals separately - just an example].
Horse bones are attested at numerous Harappan sites despite what Meadow (who influenced the paper by the Harvard team) might say; and of course, now there is a chariot from Baghpat dated to around 1900 BCE. So now the hunt is on for the Aryan genes I suppose because they alone make a 'superior pure virile' Brahmana. I am quite content being an Anarya in that case.:-)
Vishal
Suresh Kolichala
Sep 8, 2019, 4:25:43 PM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
From what I understood, three important points from the papers are:
- The ancient DNA of IVC doesn't show mixture from Eurasian Steppe DNA (although it is found in the DNA of many people of the current Indian population)
- The ancient DNA of 11 skeletons of IVC doesn't show the DNA of Iranian farmers (although it shows a significant mixture of ancient Iranian hunter-gatherer DNA).
- IVC is indigenous (although the significant DNA is from the ancient Iranian hunter-gatherers, and not ancient Indian hunter-gatherers).
It is clear to anyone who read the papers that the ancient DNA doesn't contain Yamnaya DNA, and given the fact that the current Indian population has Yamnaya DNA in significant amount in Upper Castes should only lead to the conclusion that a migration from Yamnaya region into India has occurred after 2500 BCE.
In fact both the papers clearly state it:
From the paper in _Cell_:
"However, a natural route for Indo-European languages to have spread into South Asia is from Eastern Europe via Central Asia in the first half of the 2nd millennium BCE, a chain of transmission that did occur as has been documented in detail with ancient DNA. The fact that the Steppe pastoralist ancestry in South Asia matches that in Bronze Age Eastern Europe (but not Western Europe [de Barros Damgaard et al., 2018, Narasimhan et al., 2019]) provides additional evidence for this theory, as it elegantly explains the shared distinctive features of Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian languages (Ringe et al., 2002)."
From the paper in _Science_
"Our observation of the spread of Central_Steppe_MLBA ancestry into South Asia in the first half of the second millennium BCE provides this evidence, which is particularly notable because it provides a plausible genetic explanation for the linguistic similarities between the Balto-Slavic and Indo-Iranian subfamilies of Indo-European languages, which despite their vast geographic separation share the “satem” innovation and “ruki” sound laws (62). [...] Steppe ancestry in modern South Asians is primarily from males and disproportionately high in Brahmin and Bhumihar groups."
When both papers clearly state and show pictures of movement of Indo-European speakers in the second millennium BCE into India, why do Indian newspapers report the papers with totally misleading titles?
The distortions of the scientific studies in Indian news media is astounding. I understand these papers are very technical and hard. But I hoped some of the reporters would do the due diligence and at least go through the contents and read the clear conclusions. The press conference by Shinde and Rai was also not encouraging either. While the paper they co-authored clearly states that Yamnaya DNA must have entered after the decline of IVC, how can they obfuscate the facts in the press conference to mislead the media?
That's why I sincerely hope India is developing a world-class research and scholarship culture (with achievements such as the launching of Chandrayaan despite the failure of the lander) so that they can accept and present the scientific discoveries without obfuscations or distortions or propaganda. Great achievements in science and technology will hopefully make Indian feel proud of their current preeminence in the world, so that they don't have to concoct or distort the stories of glory of the bygone era (there is already a tremendous amount of glory in the Indian past which is widely acknowledged, and should make all Indians proud of themselves).
Ā nō bhadrāḥ kratvō yantu viśvataḥ Śubham bhūyāt.
Regards,
Suresh.
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 8, 2019, 4:35:03 PM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Did you mean after 1500 BCE?
There is a big IF - that the 11 skeletons in NW India and the 1 skeleton in Rakhigarhi are representatives of the entire IVC population.
Vishal
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Radhakrishna Warrier
Sep 8, 2019, 8:11:13 PM9/8/19
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This is regarding the paper on the DNA analysis of the IVC era individual. As Suresh Kolichala has said, it appears to me that the paper is essentially saying:
- The individual can be considered to represent the larger population of IVC of that time
- The individual has a major genetic contribution from ancient Iranian hunter gatherers
- But the Iranian contribution is from a time before the Iranian hunter gatherers turned to farming, so farming did not come to IVC from these ancient Iranians
- The IVC individual has no genetic contribution from pastoral people of central Asian or eastern European steppes unlike modern Indians who do have a large contribution of these "steppe" genes
- The individual also has a much smaller contribution from the original hunter gatherer settlers of India (what the paper refers to as Andamanese Hunter Gatherers or AHG) than the modern residents of the area who have more of the AHG genetic contribution
I am not sure why many Indian newspapers say the findings discussed in the paper disprove ancient immigration from the steppes. On the contrary, basing on what this paper says, I think it could be argued that there indeed was an ancient immigration to India from the steppes after the IVC era because modern Indians do have the steppe genes but the IVC individual did not have them.
Coming back to the paper under discussion, since the IVC individual has a smaller contribution of genes from the original settlers of India (the AHG) than what modern residents of the area have, can it be said that the intermixing of the Iranian hunter gatherers and the AHG was in its initial phase in the IVC era and that it progressed and spread to east and south India in the course of time? Could we also say that these Iranian hunter gatherers brought a proto Dravidian with them? That this proto Dravidian slowly spread among the original inhabitants (the AHG) whose language was totally unrelated to Dravidian? Can we say that modern Tamils, whose genetic makeup might mostly be that of the AHG with small contributions from the Iranian Hunter Gatherers and from Steppe, speak a Dravidian language now, just as the Hispanic (whose genetic makeup is mostly native American) now speak Spanish brought from Europe?
Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Suresh Kolichala <suresh.k...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 1:25 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: A scientific Challenge to the Aryan Invasion Theory
Sent: Sunday, September 8, 2019 1:25 PM
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Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: A scientific Challenge to the Aryan Invasion Theory
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Achyut Karve
Sep 8, 2019, 9:19:20 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
Is there any paper on Tectonic Earth movements and the migration of Humans outside Africa.
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Achyut Karve
Sep 8, 2019, 10:20:23 PM9/8/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
Language too has genetic coding in terms of how basic speech units are intertwined to form words before they can be syntatically joined to form sentences.
As per our scriptures these codings outlive human generations which is the main reason for words being called नित्य.
Is there any paper on the basic speech units of human languages?
Which languages in the world have all the basic speech units.
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
Bijoy Misra
Sep 8, 2019, 11:02:43 PM9/8/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Irene,
You seem to love what you do. Many don't. It could be people are forced to do because of
employment opportunities. In the US many people remain discontented with their work.
In professions, they change jobs. In subjects like Indology, one could be stuck in perpetual
grumble. Inner grumble possibly leads to self-consolation by feeling locally superior with
little knowledge and reflection. People wrap ignorance in the flourish of language and
engage in trivial argument. It is all vanity as I see.
Spirituality as you hinted is difficult to practice. The culture may not nourish it. Spirituality
is considered be gainfully charitable than to feel with the universe. It is a different social
condition which would not easily go away. There is foundational insecurity in the system.
Most families are broken.
I am afraid that India may be going in such self-centered direction without realizing.
The modern life is complex. The economy demands quick gains.
Please carry on what you do. We remain as observers. Many would not agree.
The situation may change but it would take time.
Let us feel positive.
Best wishes,
Bijoy Misra
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 8, 2019, 11:09:12 PM9/8/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 1:41 AM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I would like Vishvas Vasuki to summarize his position [ = Aryan invaders who formed alpha Brahmana elites in later times came to India after Mature Harappan circa 1900 BCE and brought with them the Vedic religion which then overwhelmed all indigenous cultures in the Indian subcontinent and mixed with them to form Hinduism with the Vedic orthopraxy as the overarching umbrella. Alongside, the native Indians lost all memory of Aryan arrival, lost their languages, place names or even memories of the same all over the region; while the Aryan Brahmanas completely omitted to mention in explicit terms how they overcame the non Aryans century after century. The RV is post 1500 BCE and was composed east of the Hindu Kush. Or the RV is composed largely W of Hindu Kush. The Aryans are originally from Steppe and were nomads. etc etc]?
Since Irene and Vishal asked, here is a summary of the position I favor (most of it is pretty mainstream - whether it is PV kANe/ tiLak or westerners ):
- First came early hominids such as H.heidelbergensis from around 250,000-300,000 years BP.
- Then came early hunter gatherer (=IHG) groups - currently reflected in isolated Indian tribes. Those close to the un-admixed old Indian H-G Are the south Indian tribes from the Tamil country like the Irula, Malayan, Kadar, Pulliyar and Paniya. They are the deeply divergent mainland sister group of the Onge/Jarawa of the Andamans. A represent a remnant population of early out of Africa immigrants who first reached India. There they might have mixed with one or more preexisting archaic Homo (one might have been the Denisovans) but the details of that are limited. These old Indian HG tribes share a deep ancestry with the Onge, Papuans, Naasioi and Australians.
- Then came the Iranian farmer influx. Indus Valley civilization (IVC) area were settled by a people heavy in Iranian Farmer input (over a prior IHG substrate). The shudra-s, early enemy of the Arya-s, not to be confused with the later varNa, may have been part of these people. Many of the middle and service castes are positions on this cline of Indian HG-IRF admixture and have a genetic heritage predominantly of this type. The supports the idea that the diversified service jAti-s typical of India developed in the Harappan system and continued relatively intact after the subsequent Aryan conquest of the land. The IVC language was not Dravidian, but went on to form the substrate of IndoAryan.
- Then came the Aryan invasion and consolidation. This likely happened in collaboration with a faction of IVC elites, some of whom were later incorporated in the highest echolons of Arya society. The soma cult, a distinct feature of I-Ir branch, might have come from them.
- Then came the Austraasiatic influx dated to be approximately around 3000 YBP with a lower bound of 3800 YBP. The Indian movement was clearly male-biased raising the strong possibility that it was an invasion with a military dimension of armed nomadic groups.
- Then we have the Dravidian bloom. Harappans spoke a now lost/ subsumed language. In their southern borderlands were DR speakers who admixed with them and acquired some of the Harappan cultural elements. IA met, and culturally influenced Dravidian language speakers, leading to acquisition of beneficial meme-plexes. They, as a consequence, expanded in to peninsular India, mixing and linguistically dominating the proto-Indian tribes. This is indicated by estimated time of L1 haplotype’s blooming after the blooming of the R1a haplotype.
- Finally, during the Islamic invasions, we get some Turkik input.
Now, the Arya-s merit special attention:
- Indo-Aryans initially resided in the area around/ beyond the Black Sea, and were familiar with cold and long dawns (as evidenced by some parts of the Vedic texts - long ashvina-shastra to be recited at dawn).
- They radiated out widely, merged with and dominated prior occupants in vast tracts of Eurasia (just as they did in India, Iran etc..). Half of Western European men descended from one Bronze Age ‘king’.
- In India, they similarly merged with a faction of IVC people. Steppe ancestry seen in BMAC first ~2100 BCE.
- Early Arya society consisted of common people (the vish), kShatriya-s and brAhmaNa-s - the lattter formed the elite, and were relatively fluid in early times. The vish might have traded with core IVC people long before the invasions.
- The core portions of RV or even YV far predate their invasion of India. Just equinotical position indicated by the naxatra-sUkta puts it at around 2200BC, not to mention Thuban, other relatively oblique astronomical references.- They came in multiple waves. The late RV sarayu and gomati were to the west. They were later moved east perhaps indeed with the movement of ikShavAkus.
- Along with that came great tumult and civil war (eg: mahAbhArata). In the end, kuru-pAnchAla realm was where major brAhmaNa vedic consolidation happened. Gradually, this culture and its carriers (mainly in the form of brAhmaNa-s) spread elsewhere in India and beyond. The hymns were recast, reorganized and their preservation was there shored up.
As a non Brahmana, I just find it silly that only Brahmana Arya Rishis had the vitality to promote their culture even as an elite minority and overwhelm the language, religion etc etc of such a large land mass.
Conservation of core vaidika ideas over millennia and across genepool-shifts involved evolution of a well-developed and influential ritualist caste (brAhmaNa-s) with a powerful oral tradition and specifically a grammatical tradition that allowed preservation of the language, especially in ritual. However envious a viSh may be, I just find it silly that he would be blind this exceptional ability - not to mention the pretty straight-forward cases where such take-over did happen (whether Greece, greater Europe, Turkey or India).
People want to hang their hat on 11 out of place skeletons from an area close to Chitral, and an isolated skeleton in Rakhigarhi when we don't even know if they are typical Harappans, and when we do know that burial was not the norm in IVC.
Wrong- that's just aDNA. Earlier papers have estimated admixture date from extensive sampling of extant population. aDNA just confirms it.
despite what Tilak, Savarkar, Golwalkar etc believed.
Classic confirmation bias. Anyway, correction - Golwalkar is not in the same league here. He started this nativism folly, and their "Organizer" continues that comedy.
Horse bones are attested at numerous Harappan sites despite what Meadow (who influenced the paper by the Harvard team) might say; and of course, now there is a chariot from Baghpat dated to around 1900 BCE.
They make a cart into a charriot. Anyway, the horse was no where as central to Harrappan culture as it was to ancient Aryan or Turkik or Mongol cultures.
So now the hunt is on for the Aryan genes I suppose because they alone make a 'superior pure virile' Brahmana. I am quite content being an Anarya in that case.:-)
But beware brahma-dveSha (of which envious deprecation is the first step) can unfortunately turn even a vish into an anArya!
याव॑ती॒र्वै दे॒वता॒स् तास् सर्वा॑ वेद॒विदि॑ ब्राह्म॒णे व॑सन्ति॒।
तस्मा॑ ब्राह्म॒णेभ्यो॑ वेद॒विद्भ्यो॑ दि॒वेदि॑वे॒ नम॑स्कुर्या॒न्।
नाश्ली॒लङ्की॑र्तयेद्। ए॒ता ए॒व दे॒वताः॑ प्रीणाति ।
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Achyut Karve
Sep 9, 2019, 12:33:53 AM9/9/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
How did humans reach Iran?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Irene Galstian
Sep 9, 2019, 12:47:07 AM9/9/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Thank you, Vishal. That’s helpful.
Irene
Irene
Irene Galstian
Sep 9, 2019, 12:49:57 AM9/9/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
I agree with you, Prof Misra.
Irene
Irene Galstian
Sep 9, 2019, 12:57:36 AM9/9/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Thanks, Vishvas.
Irene
Bijoy Misra
Sep 9, 2019, 6:47:04 AM9/9/19
to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Dear Sri Vishwas,
I can now understand why there was irritation caused.
Many others may have their own correlated models.
Thank you for presenting.
Best regards,
BM
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 9, 2019, 8:13:42 AM9/9/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 4:17 PM Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Sri Vishwas,I can now understand why there was irritation caused.
Frankly, srI bijoy, I don't understand what you now understood about the source of my irritation :-) I was pretty clear about it, I think and Ajit got it as well.
Many others may have their own correlated models.Thank you for presenting.
Sure, you're welcome (not that it is new or original). As far as this thread is concerned, I just wanted to ensure that OIT isn't the only "official" game in town.
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Vishal Agarwal
Sep 9, 2019, 8:45:53 AM9/9/19
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Thanks for elaborating on your position, that is largely a restatement of the Aryanist invasion paradigm. This is what I have always said of the Witzellian models - that they are just the same old 19th century Colonial Aryanist models with a little overcoat of 'modern discoveries' and politically correct phrases thrown in here and there. But essentially, they remain just that - Colonial Aryanist theories.
I do wish to let you know that I have absolutely no envy for 'Brahmanas' like you! I am in a much better position in every way in my life. Nor do I fear the allegations of Brahmadvesha. I have really never been that fascinated or awed by Harry Potter's wizard like characters :-)
BTW, so in your model, the Austra-asiatics virile male akshauhinis also launched a military invasion from S E Asia into the Indian subcontinent, right? Or did that sentence belong to the previous paras dealing with Aryan Brahmanas? What caste did the victorious Austra-Asiatic then occupy with the permission of the Brahmanas?
Why are the NW rivers Gomal and Harirud mentioned in 'Late' RV instead of in the earlier portions? Is the RV Sarasvati the Helmand, or the Ghaggar-Hakra-Nara? [Or Volga, Amy Darya or Syr Darya]
Vishal
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 9, 2019, 8:54:18 AM9/9/19
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OIT never was the only "official" game in town. There are other models that posit arrival of IIr languages into India before early Harappan. An extremely thorough displacement in every way during post Harappan times appears really quite a stretch. Anyway, I am not sure if this discussion belongs to this forum.
What is clear however is that the colonial Aryanist invasion paradigms have nine lives.
Vishal
____________
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 9, 2019, 9:30:32 AM9/9/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 6:15 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
I do wish to let you know that I have absolutely no envy for 'Brahmanas' like you! I am in a much better position in every way in my life. Nor do I fear the allegations of Brahmadvesha. I have really never been that fascinated or awed by Harry Potter's wizard like characters :-)
You were not mocking "brAhmaNa-s like me", but vedic sages themselves. That's like spitting at the sun itself (as the shruti says - "आदि॒त्यम् ए॒व ते परि॑वदन्ति॒"). You might fool yourself into thinking that you are in every way better position than them (or for that matter myself) - but as always time will be the ultimate judge of how your lineage will fare. We misunderstand the lives and times of our sages and heroes at the prime of our civilization at our own risk - not only will we not reach their heights, we won't even manage to hold it together against the enemies of today - so no "avada kadavra" required. Same at the individual level.
BTW, so in your model, the Austra-asiatics virile male akshauhinis also launched a military invasion from S E Asia into the Indian subcontinent, right? Or did that sentence belong to the previous paras dealing with Aryan Brahmanas? What caste did the victorious Austra-Asiatic then occupy with the permission of the Brahmanas?
Well, isn't the vocabulary of your taunts quite pitifuly limited ("virile", "brAhmaNas", "alpha male"). Anyway, in India there are multiple AA branches in Meghalaya/greater Bengal like Khasic; Munda like Santhal. They simply, like most other tribes, retained their tribal existence with a symbiotic relationship with the Arya-s.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 9, 2019, 9:35:10 AM9/9/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 6:24 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
OIT never was the only "official" game in town. There are other models that posit arrival of IIr languages into India before early Harappan. An extremely thorough displacement in every way during post Harappan times appears really quite a stretch. Anyway, I am not sure if this discussion belongs to this forum.
By town, I mean here in BVP and other such gatherings. Turn over a rock, and you'll find one vidvAn commiserating with another: "Tut tut! Look at those evil colonial hoodlums. They're fooling everyone into thinking that Vedic people are from out of sacred India." (Thankfully they don't go full-PN-Oak.) That's a big fall from the times of heroes like BG Tilak, sAvarkar and kANe, which I would rather contain to the extant of my limited ability.
What is clear however is that the colonial Aryanist invasion paradigms have nine lives.Vishal____________On Monday, September 9, 2019, 07:13:45 AM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:Sure, you're welcome (not that it is new or original). As far as this thread is concerned, I just wanted to ensure that OIT isn't the only "official" game in town.
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 9, 2019, 12:33:25 PM9/9/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
By town, I mean here in BVP and other such gatherings. Turn over a rock, and you'll find one vidvAn commiserating with another: "Tut tut! Look at those evil colonial hoodlums. They're fooling everyone into thinking that Vedic people are from out of sacred India." (Thankfully they don't go full-PN-Oak.) That's a big fall from the times of heroes like BG Tilak, sAvarkar and kANe, which I would rather contain to the extant of my limited ability."
I don't under stand what Vishvas is trying to to covey by the sentence. I don't need further explanation. I prefer not to understand. The sentence is too complex and doesn't make much sense to me. What are you talking about
BG Tilak, sAvarkar and kANe? again I donot understand.
Any way I learnt what I needed to learn and noted your position on AIT Thank you. Bye for now.
Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan
Sep 9, 2019, 2:00:18 PM9/9/19
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Apropos this discussion I would like to understand the prayojana and phala of this topic. I admit that I have no ax to grind one way or the other, but the prayojana and phala do interest me. I suppose there are some people studying it as intellectual pursuit - as a puzzle if you will - and the studying itself is the prayojana and phala. But real life is more complex. These results are used in political ways. I remember one classmate of mine telling a short while after we learned the Aryan Invasion Theory (9th standard CBSE history) that my Indian-ness itself could be disputed, but there was no way I could be called a Tamil - that was just not possible. I didn't say anything, but it was rich coming from a Telugu speaking guy (at home) and going by my subcaste - brhaccaraNam, arguments could be made that I had a ~ 2000 year history in Tamil Nadu.
The Kotturpuram bridge in Chennai (circa early 90s) used to have many interesting gems written in clear Tamizh - one example being the leader Periyar's sayings "If you see a brahmin and a snake (at the same time), stone the brahmin first". The corporation would dutifully whitewash the bridge once or so a year, but these nuggets of wisdom would pop up again in a few weeks. BTW, all these folks use the AIT and the leaders are very open in saying so. I sometimes joke that this is the "Tamil vaalga valaraga" crowd, because when they say "Tamizh vaazhga vaLarga" in rallies, they invariably (mis)pronounce zha and La as la :-). One way to effectively control to garbage from these fascists may be to pass a law that only people who can pronounce zha and La correctly are Tamilians :-) :-).
Of course some may know the incident where Kamil Zvelebil suggested that the earliest language in India was not Tamil in a speech (in Madurai if I remember right) and had to be rushed out before the Periyarist mob could lynch him. So AIT and other historical "facts" can be chosen only selectively.
After finishing my CBSE history in 10th, I think we all realized that the Aryans invaded, then there was dark period with absolutely no progress till Sher Shah built roads, Akbar came up with Din-i-Lahi (bless his heart) and Aurangazeb the emperor was a humble man who lived off the money he made by selling handwritten copies of the Koran. BTW, this is NOT an exaggeration. I don't know if the CBSE history books are still this stupid or whether they have improved. Silly people who write op-eds in American newspapers about "re-writing" history textbooks in India should perhaps read some of them first.
Later at IIT Madras, when I had a chance to take some humanities courses and being older, I did understand quite quickly that the historians were mainly communists (most used to be card carrying members of some cell or the other) who wanted to keep playing society off by pitting one group against the other, while waiting for salvation from China or Russia. This is again not a joke or an exaggeration. They used to openly wish for a Chinese or Russian invasion. This is all well known. These days they pass themselves off as "progressives" or whatever and keep their Chinese/Russian invasion fantasies in check (at least openly). I do wonder though like Dr Misra, why many academics here align themselves with these jokers. Just because someone agrees with you on AIT or whatever doesn't mean you should share a platform with them. Why write op-eds in Indian newspapers about Indian politicians, elections, history, AIT and such, while associating with an odious group? Clearly the folks here also have some hidden agenda and just completely naive fools.
On the flip side though, I wonder if the grand scheme of the OIT, at least by some people, is the othering of who they consider "non-Indian". Having been on the receiving end of this othering, I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone.
Ramakrishnan
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 11, 2019, 11:52:14 PM9/11/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:30 PM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
Apropos this discussion I would like to understand the prayojana and phala of this topic.
I admit that I have no ax to grind one way or the other, but the prayojana and phala do interest me.
श्लाघ्यमिदं ताटस्थ्यम्। न हि सर्वेण सर्वत्राग्रहः कार्यः। किन्तु वादे प्रवर्तयमाने प्रामाणिकता रक्ष्या - परिश्रमः कार्यः। आत्मवञ्चनं लोकवञ्चनसङ्गतन्तु - "A scientific Challenge to the Aryan Invasion Theory" इति वा, "People want to hang their hat on 11 out of place skeletons" इति वा न ह्यपभाषणीयम्।
I suppose there are some people studying it as intellectual pursuit - as a puzzle if you will - and the studying itself is the prayojana and phala. But real life is more complex. These results are used in political ways.
तत्र प्रयोजनान्येवम् -
- प्रतिपक्षेण स्वीकृतैरेव प्रमाणैस् तेषां दुराग्रहाणाम् प्रतीकारः - "पश्यत, यूयमपि नादिवासिनः!"। वैज्ञानिकप्रमाणतिरस्कारे तु वयं हि हास्यास्पदानि स्याम। तथा ऽस्मद्विरोधिभ्य एव रिक्ता वेदी समर्पितेव भवति।
- प्राचीनशास्त्राणाम् यथापरिस्थिति +अवगतिः। यथा - कुतो ननु मानवशास्त्रे शूद्राभ्युदयविरोधः कठोरः? कथमिव पुरा गोमांसभक्षणम् प्रशस्तम्?
- अस्मत्पूर्वजानाम् महात्मनाम् अभ्युदयो ज्ञेयः, अस्मत्संस्कृतेर् युवावस्था वीर्यवती ज्ञेया, मध्यकालादारभ्य वयं कथमिवान्यथा वर्तमाना प्राप्तजरावस्था मूढचेतसो गर्त्त इवापताम इति कलनीयम्। स्वदोषाभिज्ञाने तन्मार्जने च शुद्धम् प्रामाणिकं ज्ञानम् उपकरोति। तदर्थम् पुराणानि वर्तन्त एव, तैस् साकन्त्व् आधुनिकेतिहासदृष्टिरपि बहूपकरोति।
On the flip side though, I wonder if the grand scheme of the OIT, at least by some people, is the othering of who they consider "non-Indian". Having been on the receiving end of this othering, I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone.
निजपरभेदो मानवावस्थाया अनिवार्यम् अङ्गम्। यतः समाजे विरोधो युद्धम् अपि स्वाभाविकम् - शान्तिरेव विकारः। किञ्च - को भेदभाव उपकारको ऽस्मद् उदयाय, कस्तु हेय इति तु विवेक्तव्यम्। वदन्ति केचित् - "हिन्दुको वा मरून्मत्तो वा प्रेताराधको वा भारतीयश् चेदलम्" इति वदन्तः। केचिदन्ये च - "वयं द्राविडा - यूयं कर्णाटाः, त औदीच्या" इति। वयमन्ये तु जयशीलार्षभारतीयसंस्कृत्यनुकूलताम् परं सञ्चक्ष्महे।
Ramakrishnan
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Achyut Karve
Sep 12, 2019, 12:22:51 AM9/12/19
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Dear Vidwans,
Have skeletons been found near the Harrapan sites? If not does it not tell us that the practice of cremation was in practice then too?
Which other civilizations practiced cremation?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 12, 2019, 1:15:26 AM9/12/19
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On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:52 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Vidwans,Have skeletons been found near the Harrapan sites?
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Achyut Karve
Sep 12, 2019, 5:32:23 AM9/12/19
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Dear Vidwans,
When did the practice of cremation start in Indian Society? Burial is still in vogue among some tribals.
Can the practice of cremation not be the reason for not finding skeletal remains of humans In the Deccan?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Achyut Karve
Sep 12, 2019, 1:22:01 PM9/12/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
In the wake of cremation being a practice since Vedic times can the skeletal remains found in the north west and steppes be said to be representative of the Indian Sub Continent?
How many skeletal remains have heen found along the river Ganga or in the Doab or in the Deccan which has been populated since time immemorial?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
Kalicharan Tuvij
Sep 13, 2019, 12:55:53 PM9/13/19
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Also,
Prehistoric interactions between India and Russia (using the words loosely) should also be researched thoroughly. Lactase persistence (LP), the ability in some adults to digest milk with more ease, in particular has been shown to have been transmitted from Russia (not Iran) to Europe. It is then very likely a result of the transmission of that specific genetic variant (termed C/T*−13910) from India to Russia.
Another known outcome of the Indo-Russo-Iranian confluence is the one-way word-loan in Balto-Slavic. "One-way" because Indian mainland was too far away to be influenced.
Achyut Karve
Sep 13, 2019, 2:10:28 PM9/13/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
Darwin's theory of evolution was not based on genetic or archeological studies. It was a result of a close observation of the present living world and the close morphological relation that exist between species of the day.
By basing evolution on archeological o r genetic studies these so called theorists have turned a blind eye towards what is obvious in the present.
For example what happens just to the second or third generation of people who have migrated to the US? Do the language they speak there have any resemblence to their parents language though they may still carry the genetic print of their parents. One can only pity these theorists who have given up on their common sense in the endeavour of inventing new things.
In such circumstances it is hard to believe that the Vedas were imported from across the North West border of present day South Asia.
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 13, 2019, 9:07:24 PM9/13/19
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नमस्ते,
With lots of people unabashedly spreading misleading information, one would do well to listen to the population genetics experts hashing it out - https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09/11/browncast-episode-66-ancient-india-and-dna-with-vagheesh-narasimhan/ . Vagheesh Narasimhan is the lead author of the paper that started this thread.
An interesting point from there:
- Selection for lactose tolerance in India occurred in the last millennium or two.
On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:40 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:
Darwin's theory of evolution was not based on genetic or archeological studies. It was a result of a close observation of the present living world and the close morphological relation that exist between species of the day.
Observation of close morphological relation also led to the proposition of Lamarckian inheritance (inheritance of acquired characteristics). This was later rejected in favor of Darwin's theory. Furthermore, Darwin's theory have since found support and theoretical basis in genetics.
One may campare OIT and AIT with Lamarckian and Dawinian theories.
By basing evolution on archeological o r genetic studies these so called theorists have turned a blind eye towards what is obvious in the present.
This is a serious misrepresentation since genetic studies closely look at present day genetic composition of geographically and ethnically diverse people.
For example what happens just to the second or third generation of people who have migrated to the US? Do the language they speak there have any resemblence to their parents language though they may still carry the genetic print of their parents. One can only pity these theorists who have given up on their common sense in the endeavour of inventing new things.
What language did second and third generation of Anglo Saxon people migrating to the US speak? One can only pity these theorists who have given up on their common sense in the endeavour of supporting counter-scientific things.
In such circumstances it is hard to believe that the Vedas were imported from across the North West border of present day South Asia.With regards,Achyut Karve.--On Fri, 13 Sep 2019 22:25 Kalicharan Tuvij, <kalich...@gmail.com> wrote:Also,Prehistoric interactions between India and Russia (using the words loosely) should also be researched thoroughly. Lactase persistence (LP), the ability in some adults to digest milk with more ease, in particular has been shown to have been transmitted from Russia (not Iran) to Europe. It is then very likely a result of the transmission of that specific genetic variant (termed C/T*−13910) from India to Russia.Another known outcome of the Indo-Russo-Iranian confluence is the one-way word-loan in Balto-Slavic. "One-way" because Indian mainland was too far away to be influenced.--
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venkat veeraraghavan
Sep 13, 2019, 10:03:57 PM9/13/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Cremation is mentioned in Mahabharata when the Yadavas were all killed in an internecine conflict.
So too in the Ramayana after Dasaratha passes away.
Even for Jatayu Rama does not do the convenient thing when he could have buried Jatayu instead of cremating him.
With the diligence of a Vaidiga Brahmana Rama goes around performing last rites for all and sundry. Even after the war he offers his services to Vibhishana suggesting that even he can perform Ravana's last rites...:)
सौमित्रे हर काष्ठानि निर्मथिष्यामि पावकम् |
गृध्र राजम् दिधक्षामि मत् कृते निधनम् गतम् || ३-६८-२७
Only Yatis and similar Sanyasis were buried since they were said to have renounced the sacred fire.
Even vanaprasthas did not renounce the tretaagni and were cremated along with their ritual fires.
On Thursday, September 12, 2019 at 3:02:23 PM UTC+5:30, Achyut Karve wrote:
Dear Vidwans,When did the practice of cremation start in Indian Society? Burial is still in vogue among some tribals.Can the practice of cremation not be the reason for not finding skeletal remains of humans In the Deccan?With regards,Achyut Karve.
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 10:45 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki), <vishva...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Sep 12, 2019 at 9:52 AM Achyut Karve <achyu...@gmail.com> wrote:Dear Vidwans,Have skeletons been found near the Harrapan sites?Yes - https://brainly.in/question/6298024 and https://www.harappa.com/content/skeletal-paleopathology-human-remains-cemetery-r37-harappa-excavated-1987-and-1988 seem to have good info.
If not does it not tell us that the practice of cremation was in practice then too?Which other civilizations practiced cremation?With regards,Achyut Karve.
On Thu, 12 Sep 2019 09:22 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki), <vishva...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Sep 9, 2019 at 11:30 PM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.r...@gmail.com> wrote:Apropos this discussion I would like to understand the prayojana and phala of this topic.I admit that I have no ax to grind one way or the other, but the prayojana and phala do interest me.श्लाघ्यमिदं ताटस्थ्यम्। न हि सर्वेण सर्वत्राग्रहः कार्यः। किन्तु वादे प्रवर्तयमाने प्रामाणिकता रक्ष्या - परिश्रमः कार्यः। आत्मवञ्चनं लोकवञ्चनसङ्गतन्तु - "A scientific Challenge to the Aryan Invasion Theory" इति वा, "People want to hang their hat on 11 out of place skeletons" इति वा न ह्यपभाषणीयम्।I suppose there are some people studying it as intellectual pursuit - as a puzzle if you will - and the studying itself is the prayojana and phala. But real life is more complex. These results are used in political ways.तत्र प्रयोजनान्येवम् -- प्रतिपक्षेण स्वीकृतैरेव प्रमाणैस् तेषां दुराग्रहाणाम् प्रतीकारः - "पश्यत, यूयमपि नादिवासिनः!"। वैज्ञानिकप्रमाणतिरस्कारे तु वयं हि हास्यास्पदानि स्याम। तथा ऽस्मद्विरोधिभ्य एव रिक्ता वेदी समर्पितेव भवति।- प्राचीनशास्त्राणाम् यथापरिस्थिति +अवगतिः। यथा - कुतो ननु मानवशास्त्रे शूद्राभ्युदयविरोधः कठोरः? कथमिव पुरा गोमांसभक्षणम् प्रशस्तम्?- अस्मत्पूर्वजानाम् महात्मनाम् अभ्युदयो ज्ञेयः, अस्मत्संस्कृतेर् युवावस्था वीर्यवती ज्ञेया, मध्यकालादारभ्य वयं कथमिवान्यथा वर्तमाना प्राप्तजरावस्था मूढचेतसो गर्त्त इवापताम इति कलनीयम्। स्वदोषाभिज्ञाने तन्मार्जने च शुद्धम् प्रामाणिकं ज्ञानम् उपकरोति। तदर्थम् पुराणानि वर्तन्त एव, तैस् साकन्त्व् आधुनिकेतिहासदृष्टिरपि बहूपकरोति।On the flip side though, I wonder if the grand scheme of the OIT, at least by some people, is the othering of who they consider "non-Indian". Having been on the receiving end of this othering, I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone.निजपरभेदो मानवावस्थाया अनिवार्यम् अङ्गम्। यतः समाजे विरोधो युद्धम् अपि स्वाभाविकम् - शान्तिरेव विकारः। किञ्च - को भेदभाव उपकारको ऽस्मद् उदयाय, कस्तु हेय इति तु विवेक्तव्यम्। वदन्ति केचित् - "हिन्दुको वा मरून्मत्तो वा प्रेताराधको वा भारतीयश् चेदलम्" इति वदन्तः। केचिदन्ये च - "वयं द्राविडा - यूयं कर्णाटाः, त औदीच्या" इति। वयमन्ये तु जयशीलार्षभारतीयसंस्कृत्यनुकूलताम् परं सञ्चक्ष्महे।
--Ramakrishnan
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venkat veeraraghavan
Sep 13, 2019, 10:44:03 PM9/13/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Vishal:
The purusha sukta mentions this alone.
While I am sympathetic to your position and agree with yours, I am confused as to why you are making this personal with Vishvas. It is possible to be passionate in defense of your theory without getting personal and throwing the kitchen sink at the other side.
Also fyi--WIth rare exceptions like Parashurama and Drona who took up arms for various reasons, any akshauhinis would have been lead by a Kshatriya not a Brahmana.
Most Brahmanas of even 200 years back cannot be compared with what we have now. Chaturvedi exists only in name these days.
You do not understand a "Brahmana" and claim to be better than them in all respects .... how can you be better when you do not even understand them? Is this passive aggression? This shows an implicit assumption that you also believe that they somehow controlled "Narrative" to suit themselves.
All this pride and posturing comes from jAti and not an understanding of varNa.
In a human body, the pancreas cannot claim to be better of than the intestines or the brain or the heart or the stomach. Instead of watching Harry Potter go watch the "Last Samurai"
Nathan Algren had a much better understanding of varNa than most although he doesnt use that exact word
- Colonel Bagley: The rebels don't have a single rifle. They're savages with bows and arrows.
- Algren: Whose sole occupation for the last thousand years has been war.
When the mouth eats all organs receive their due and they are reborn and rejuvenated.
The nourishment is not localised to the arms (kshatriyas) or the mouth (Brahmanas) as many seem to think nor do the legs try and do the work of the hands (unless ones' hands have been lost ofcourse)
Does that mean that a leg is somehow vestigial compared to a mouth or the hands?
A lot of this dvesha comes from similar perverted understanding and posturing.
All the best,
Venkat
On Monday, September 9, 2019 at 6:15:53 PM UTC+5:30, Vishal Agarwal wrote:
Thanks for elaborating on your position, that is largely a restatement of the Aryanist invasion paradigm. This is what I have always said of the Witzellian models - that they are just the same old 19th century Colonial Aryanist models with a little overcoat of 'modern discoveries' and politically correct phrases thrown in here and there. But essentially, they remain just that - Colonial Aryanist theories.I do wish to let you know that I have absolutely no envy for 'Brahmanas' like you! I am in a much better position in every way in my life. Nor do I fear the allegations of Brahmadvesha. I have really never been that fascinated or awed by Harry Potter's wizard like characters :-)BTW, so in your model, the Austra-asiatics virile male akshauhinis also launched a military invasion from S E Asia into the Indian subcontinent, right? Or did that sentence belong to the previous paras dealing with Aryan Brahmanas? What caste did the victorious Austra-Asiatic then occupy with the permission of the Brahmanas?Why are the NW rivers Gomal and Harirud mentioned in 'Late' RV instead of in the earlier portions? Is the RV Sarasvati the Helmand, or the Ghaggar-Hakra-Nara? [Or Volga, Amy Darya or Syr Darya]Vishal
Vishal
Kalicharan Tuvij
Sep 13, 2019, 11:05:03 PM9/13/19
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
I think I've made my argument (unabashedly or otherwise). Nothing more to add. LP did originate in India - this isn't yet a fact, or information (or misinformation) - it is an argument. Nuances, well.
Achyut Karve
Sep 14, 2019, 12:15:01 AM9/14/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
The evolution of the Vedic Language.
I do not know whether this topic should be a different thread.
In the course of my study of the tabla I found that the Gharansas as they are called have distinct phonetic characteristics resulting in different syntactical structures. It was the contribution of late Ahmedjan Thirakwa to fuse them into a single hand. In short the basic two gharanas namely Delhi and Purab were fused phonetically into a new gharana called Farrukhabad which can be said to be a high bred of the first two gharanas. However this high bred gharana was more refined than the first two. All this took place in a span of about three to four hundred years thus replacing the pakhawaj in North Indian Classical music as well as establishing itself as a solo instrument as it had evolved intricate compositions.
This high bred gharana did not have the characteristics of the gharanas from which they primarily arose i.e the dhol, nagara from which evolved the Delhi Gharana and the pakhawaj from which arose the purab(lucknow) gharana
Vedic Sanskrit too appears to have evolved in a similar way as a fusion or high bred between North Indian and Dravidian tongues thus establishing itself as a unique language.
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
On Sat, 14 Sep 2019 08:35 Kalicharan Tuvij, <kalich...@gmail.com> wrote:
I think I've made my argument (unabashedly or otherwise). Nothing more to add. LP did originate in India - this isn't yet a fact, or information (or misinformation) - it is an argument. Nuances, well.
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Vishal Agarwal
Sep 14, 2019, 1:31:33 AM9/14/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
You have totally misunderstood my message. I have tremendous respect for those genuine Brahmanas (or non Brahmanas) who are vidya-vinaya-sampanna. My retorts were meant only for him. He and a few others (not the rest) are referred to as 'Brahmana Supremacists' on some lists because they believe like modern colonialists that they were a civilizing force for the rest of us. As for Akshauhinis, he is the one who referred to the word 'virile' and so on in the context of Brahmanas; and referred to an Austra-Asiatic invasion too - see his own posts below. My personal goal is to follow Gita 5.18 and my own interactions with vidvaans in my life speaks for itself.
Anyway, for all the bombastic claims of the paper, the fact remains that it lists 6 castes as having the highest central Steppe genetic content as follows:
1. UP Bhumihar
2. Bihar Bhumihar
3. Jat Sikh
4. Tiwari Brahmin
5. Nepal Brahmin
6. Brahmin UP
Can anyone tell my why 1 and 2 are counted separately; and whether the label 'Bhumihar' even has any relevance in precolonial times? Can anyone tell me why Tiwari Brahmin (~ Trivedis/Tripathis) is classified separately from UP Brahmin? Most Tiwaris are from UP, and in fact many with this surname are even found in Nepal. And in Nepal itself, we have the Bahun (Khas) as well as Terai Brahmans who overlap with Bhumihars and Tiwaris. So essentially, one continuum of a population is arbitrarily split into 5. Many community names do not make much sense. What is 'Gaud_Karnataka'? Is it a Gaud Sarasvata; or Vokkaliga? If the former, why does it have so low Central MLBA Steppe ancestry? What if I make separate categories of Haryana Jats, Rajasthan Jats, UP Jats and then argue that many Shudra clans have the highest MLBA ancestry? Which community in ancient India was said to have only two Varnas - Brahmana and Shudra?
If you scroll further, you will likewise find may 'populations' split unnecessarily (e.g., there are separate categories for 'Agarwal', 'Bania', 'Banias'). Why is it that the Jat Sikhs, considered Shudras along with other Jats (Hindus in Haryana, W Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan; Muslim Jutts in W Punjab) have the third or fourth highest central Steppe MLBA related ancestry? And it is not just this study which says so. Another study by Pathak et al actually notes that the Haryana (Hindu) Jats have even a greater European/MLBA genetic portion than Brahmins. So how does that fit the Aryan Migration as illustrated in the paper which says that higher the MLBA content, the higher in caste heirarchy (look also at the high MLBA of Chamars, Pasis)? In short, other explanations must be searched for than THE simple 'higher Central Steppe MLBA means higher in Varna ladder' type of explanations, and then forcefit them into the AMT paradigms. The data is shoddily coded and the resultant analysis apparently not uninodal due to which the blanket judgments of the paper do not have much real explanatory value.
Let us assume for a moment that all Central Asian genes were brought by Vedic people who then interbred with Indus Periphery Pool population so that the higher the MLBA content, the higher they were placed in the Varna system. This presupposes a prior hierarchy or notion or racial purity among the steppe immigrants; whereas one does not really see much evidence for the fourfold Varna system in the Rigveda. The other alternative is that the Steppe immigrants were absorbed into the pre-existing heirarchical structures of IVC (Steppe priests becoming Indian priests; Steppe laymen becoming Indian Vis or Sudras) in which case we should not be seeing a genetic gradation aligning with the fourfold caste system; and certainly not a replacement of IVC religion with a Vedic religion.
An alternate explanation could be to look at evolution of RV Shrauta/Grhya evolution from its older books to newer books; and thereon into YV/SV and so on. What are the newer features added? Somayajnas? Agnichayana (just throwing some examples). Could this new Steppe MLBA priests have brought these newer features with them and added to pre-existing ancient Vedic ceremonial framework? Or have reinforced the same; just as Maag/Shakadvipi Brahmanas (incidentally many Bhumihars claim to be exactly this community) reinforced and not introduced Saura worship in India in more recent times?
There is a tradition noted in shastras that the Sarasvati went underground at Vinashana because of the influx of barbarians from NW. If this event happened during the first half of the second millennium BCE, what could be a possible explanation? And how does the fact that central Asian rivers have changed their courses in the last 3000 years affect our understanding? For instance, much of Turkmenistan today is arid with the Amu Darya (Oxus or Vakshu) as well as Syr Darya falling into the Aral Sea. But prior to around 600 BC, they are known to have fallen into Caspian Sea directly or through a distributary.
Even from the perspective of historical linguistics, this genetic study makes some assumptions like accepting the Yamnaya Kurgan culture as the PIE Urheimat, and the Andronovo Culture as the IIr core area; and placing the Balto Slavic homeland in the Pontic Steppes. These views are not universally accepted by all Linguists, but certainly by David Reich. Ironically, some genetic studies I recall seeing see the highest Central Steppe MLBA in Finns among all Europeans, and it is precisely these people who are not IE speakers for several centuries.
Other list members have pointed out here that in both Vedic as well as IVC contexts, burial was not unknown but was not the norm, which was cremation. We do find far fewer grave sites in the Indus Sarasvati area than we expect to, and the natural conclusion is that burials or even fractional burials were not the norm. Even some late Vedic texts actually state that the Asurs buried their daily use items with the corpses. Therefore, one must really ponder on whether these 12 individuals in the Indus Periphery Pool were even representative of either IVC or Vedic peoples, or whether they were migrants from peninsular India who adopted some IVC cultural traits.
If Vasant Shinde has misrepresented the research conclusions, the opposite side has done the same. For instance, claims like "Some populations have as much as 30% Central Steppe MLBA genes" creates the impression these are major population groups. While the Bahuns are significant in Nepal (1 in 8), the same cannot be said of others necessarily. Bhumihars, or Tiwaris (Brahmins are 1 in 9 in UP as a whole and likewise in Bihar if Bhumihars are also considered as Brahmins). In contrast, Jat Sikhs who are over a quarter of the population of Punjab but they were traditionally low caste. And so, even the elite domination model does not work here with the genetic data presented.
In short, much more work is needed and then analyzed with much greater sophistication and rigor before sweeping conclusions as in this paper are drawn. I will leave it here.
Regards,
Vishal
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 14, 2019, 2:53:38 AM9/14/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, vagh...@mail.harvard.edu
On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 11:01 AM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
He and a few others (not the rest) are referred to as 'Brahmana Supremacists' on some lists because they believe like modern colonialists that they were a civilizing force for the rest of us.
For those interested, I've started a separate thread on precisely the above denialism - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bvparishat/Fk23Mvx6VjM .
Since the below pertains to his paper, I invite Vagheesh Narasimhan (cc-ed) to respond objectively.
@vAgheesh - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bvparishat is a mailing list consisting of Indian Sanskrit scholar types and assorted interested laymen. As such, genetics being outside their main area of competence, they are far too easily misled by misselected facts, misstatements and the like. It would be a great service if you engage in clarifying technical objections and questions (while not wasting time on the rest). You can respond via https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bvparishat after getting membership, or I offer to forward your response.
@vAgheesh - https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bvparishat is a mailing list consisting of Indian Sanskrit scholar types and assorted interested laymen. As such, genetics being outside their main area of competence, they are far too easily misled by misselected facts, misstatements and the like. It would be a great service if you engage in clarifying technical objections and questions (while not wasting time on the rest). You can respond via https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/bvparishat after getting membership, or I offer to forward your response.
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Megh Kalyanasundaram
Sep 14, 2019, 3:07:17 AM9/14/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Appreciate the following excerpt (in yellow), from your recent note (in trail below), Vishal. Thank you for raising these and sharing them.
Best,
Megh
"Can anyone tell my why 1 and 2 are counted separately; and whether the label 'Bhumihar' even has any relevance in precolonial times? Can anyone tell me why Tiwari Brahmin (~ Trivedis/Tripathis) is classified separately from UP Brahmin? Most Tiwaris are from UP, and in fact many with this surname are even found in Nepal. And in Nepal itself, we have the Bahun (Khas) as well as Terai Brahmans who overlap with Bhumihars and Tiwaris. So essentially, one continuum of a population is arbitrarily split into 5. Many community names do not make much sense. What is 'Gaud_Karnataka'? Is it a Gaud Sarasvata; or Vokkaliga? If the former, why does it have so low Central MLBA Steppe ancestry? What if I make separate categories of Haryana Jats, Rajasthan Jats, UP Jats and then argue that many Shudra clans have the highest MLBA ancestry? Which community in ancient India was said to have only two Varnas - Brahmana and Shudra?
If you scroll further, you will likewise find may 'populations' split unnecessarily (e.g., there are separate categories for 'Agarwal', 'Bania', 'Banias'). Why is it that the Jat Sikhs, considered Shudras along with other Jats (Hindus in Haryana, W Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan; Muslim Jutts in W Punjab) have the third or fourth highest central Steppe MLBA related ancestry?"
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 14, 2019, 4:41:30 AM9/14/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 12:37 PM Megh Kalyanasundaram <kalyanasun...@gmail.com> wrote:
What if I make separate categories of Haryana Jats, Rajasthan Jats, UP Jats and then argue that many Shudra clans have the highest MLBA ancestry?
Actually, this is an excellent idea. Data is freely available for everyone to play with. Vishal or whoever should put their time where there mouth is, and do exactly this - categorize or group jAti-s however they like and produce figures analogous to the ones in the paper. We'll see what comes out of it.
venkat veeraraghavan
Sep 14, 2019, 8:34:21 AM9/14/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
You obviously seem to be well informed with respect to the key issues within the data sets.
The best course of action would be for you to run diagnostics and post a counter narrative.
Nothing speaks louder than patterns in data which cannot be argued against or pushed under the carpet.
Being unaware of the political overtones, I am unaware of the assumption here-->Does the steppe gene somehow confer superiority or dilution to these 6 categories?
Another issue to consider is all these 6 categories are North Indians categories(Not trying to subsume Nepal within the Rep of India here) geographically speaking. This could have resulted from invasions from the Yavanas and resultant comingling.
Unfortunately the history of the subcontinent is too long and tangled for a simple answer to emerge.
Regards,
Venkat
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Sep 14, 2019, 8:42:53 AM9/14/19
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Please see below mail which gives a rough summary of what has been discussed. My last post as the debate can be endless
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
***********
From: Sanjay Deshpande
Subject: Article: What is dead may never die
Date: September 13, 2019 at 6:12:48 AM PDT
View the article.. http://flip.it/QF4wUg
View the article + more on Flipboard. http://flip.it/nmj26W
What is dead may never die
Updated: 13 Sep 2019, 02:16 PM ISTBibek Bhattacharya- Recent DNA findings on ancient Harappans can re-ignite culture wars
- The historical origins of Indians is a politicized subject
Topics
Dana Nuccitelli is an environment scientist who is famous for debunking the myths peddled by climate change deniers. Five years ago, in his column in The Guardian, Nuccitelli wrote about “zombie myths". Simply put, these are denials of conclusive climate science that refuse to die no matter how many times they are debunked. Such examples are legion: “Scientists are falsifying data"; “last winter was so cold, how can the planet be warming?"; “if the climate is changing, it can also change back". These are often peddled by people who preface their “folksy" wisdom with variations of the phrase, “I’m not a scientist, but…"
I was reminded of zombie myths while reading two landmark studies on genetics that were published on 6 September. These papers, one published in Science and the other in Cell, tell a complementary tale. The Science paper is titled The Formation Of Human Populations Of South And Central Asia, by Vagheesh M.. Narasimhan and others. It’s a study of the genomic make-up of the ancient DNA of 523 individuals spanning 8,000 years, primarily from Central Asia and northernmost South Asia, and provides a detailed and robust overview of ancient population movements across large parts of Asia. One of the paper’s findings, of particular interest to India and South Asia, is that pastoralists from the Central Asian steppes—in other words, the “Aryans"—did indeed spread to the subcontinent, but that migration began only in the second millennium BC, i.e. between 1500-2000 BC.
The other paper, published in Cell, focuses on the ancient DNA of one particular skeleton, over 4,000 years old and probably a woman’s, found in a Harappan cemetery from the mature Indus Valley Civilization (IVC) site of Rakhigarhi in Haryana and correlates it with that of 11 other skeletons from IVC-adjacent areas sampled in the Science study. Titled An Ancient Harappan Genome Lacks Ancestry From Steppe Pastoralists Or Iranian Farmers, the paper shares many of the same authors, including Vasant Shinde, head of the department of archaeology at Pune’s Deccan College, Narasimhan from the department of genetics, Harvard Medical School, and David Reich of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute, Harvard Medical School. The ancient genomic sequence that this study discusses establishes that Harappan DNA is present in most present-day Indians. The study finds no trace of the steppe pastoralists in the Harappan DNA.
Simply put, this means that the people of the IVC were not genetically related to the steppe pastoralists. The latter did migrate to the subcontinent carrying Indo-European languages, but that happened after the waning of the IVC, around 2000 BC. So the IVC has nothing to do with the culture of the Indo-European languages—the “Vedic" culture of the so-called Aryans. We now have a plausible model of Indo-European language speakers migrating in waves to northern India after the decline of the mature-phase IVC. The DNA findings support that hypothesis.
In a 9 September interview to The Economic Times, Reich spells this out clearly: “For the first time, we have a genetic model that fits statistically for most present-day South Asians: mixture of IVC-like people, and other (smaller contributions) from other populations for which we have genetic data," he says. It’s quite unambiguous; most Indians have a large amount of Harappan DNA, mixed with a varying amount of steppe pastoralist (Aryan) DNA that came in later. Reich says this latter number “ranges from 0-30%. People with this ancestry almost certainly spread into South Asia from the north 4,000-3,500 years ago."
This is where the zombie myths come in. Like climate science, the origin of Indians is a politicized subject, and this makes even a purely scientific finding politically fraught. Let’s look at some of the myths that have been peddled by Hindu nationalist historiography and its proponents. The main one is that a Vedic cultural civilization originated in South Asia, predating the IVC, and later moved to Central Asia and Europe. The corollary to this theory is that India has always been “Hindu"—the Harappans were Vedic Aryans. This Out of India (OOI) thesis allows culture warriors on the right to make claims about an “eternal Hindu civilization" forever tied to the subcontinent. Any attempt to fix the scientific fact that the ancestors of the Vedic pastoralists were themselves “outsiders", like many others, and that too of fairly recent vintage, basically debunks this thesis. The Cell paper says that the genetic results have “linguistic implications" and very clearly states, “(However) a natural route for Indo-European languages to have spread to South Asia is through Eastern Europe via Central Asia in the first half of the 2nd millennium BCE, a chain of transmission that did occur as has been documented in detail with ancient DNA."
But zombie myths are bound to rear their heads again, sooner or later. Although the papers are barely a week old, media pieces have already misrepresented the Cell paper to proclaim that the “Aryan Invasion Theory" has been debunked. That isn’t true, because the theory no longer exists in scholarship. But the genetic data does support what could be called the “Aryan Migration Theory". While revealing the full bouquet of India’s genetic and cultural inheritance remains a work in progress, the fact that this inheritance is multifaceted, is indisputable. However, that is unlikely to stop people from muttering, “I’m not a scientist, but…"
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__,_._,___
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 14, 2019, 9:54:05 AM9/14/19
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An old paper by Koenraad Elst (see attached) summarizes some Political abuses of AIT/AMT/OIT etc. In fact, the paper does not even list all of them although it is the best summary available. In my own notes, I have citations from books that AIT is used in many other ways too like:
1. Jainism is the original faith of IVC and Hinduism is an invasive religion through AIT.
2. Sikhs represent a resurgence of original faith AIT (!)
3. Sanskrit itself is derived from Arabic (I have books by two Pakistani scholars on this)
4. German Nationalism and Nazism
5. Eurocentrism and White Supremacism
6. Brahmin's Burden
The fact that the newspaper The Hindu is promoting a particular view, the clockwork precision with which Tony Joseph has been promoted etc. has its own political underpinnings.
This post is just for summarizing the intensely political nature of this controversy and not for triggering any discussion.
Regards,
Vishal Agarwal
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Irene Galstian
Sep 14, 2019, 11:09:31 AM9/14/19
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Vishal,
Will you be writing up your findings as a book? Since you’ve collected notes on the various viewpoints, it might be worth making your observations public, along with your own assessment of the situation.
Irene
Will you be writing up your findings as a book? Since you’ve collected notes on the various viewpoints, it might be worth making your observations public, along with your own assessment of the situation.
Irene
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 14, 2019, 12:23:48 PM9/14/19
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Unfortunately this does not seem likely in the near future as I am very engaged in community activities teaching children and adults (in addition to my day job, family commitments etc) since 2008. My primary focus at present is to create material for teaching Hinduism at temple schools; and complete my notes on the Vedanta Prasthana Traya. I can share digital copies of some of my old publications listed below if you wish:
2014. The New Western Stereotypes of Hindus in Western Indology.
Hinduworld Publisher. Wilmington (Delaware) -some chapters in this are relevant.
2005-2006. On Perceiving Aryan Migrations in Vedic Ritual Texts. Pages
155-165 in Puratattva (Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society,
New Delhi), Vol. 36
2005-2006. Misrepresentation of Ancient India and Hinduism in American School Textbooks. Pages 72-89 in History Today (Journal of the Indian History and Culture Society, New Delhi), Vol. 7
2005. What is the Aryan Migration Theory. Pages 1-46 in Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies in History and Archaeology, Vol. 2, No. 1.
2005. A Review of Romila Thapar’s ‘Ancient India, a Textbook of History for Middle Schools’, NCERT: New Delhi (1987). In India’s Only Communalist. Ed. by Koenraad Elst. Voice of India (New Delhi)
2004-2005. Misrepresentation and Stereotyping of Hindu Dharma in History Textbooks in India. Pages 61-76 in History Today (Journal of the Indian History and Culture Society, New Delhi), Vol. 5
2004-2005. Review of Michael Witzel’s ‘Ein Fremdling im Rigveda in JIES vol. 31. Pages 221-226 in Puratattva (Bulletin of the Indian Archaeological Society, New Delhi), Vol. 35
Vishal
__________
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Ramanujachar P
Sep 14, 2019, 12:59:31 PM9/14/19
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Pl. share the articles for my study.
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Dr. P. Ramanujan
Parankushachar Institute of Vedic Studies (Regd.)
Parankushachar Institute of Vedic Studies (Regd.)
Bengaluru
9449088616
Irene Galstian
Sep 14, 2019, 2:58:41 PM9/14/19
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Those are important activities.
I’d be grateful for your papers and other writings on the topic.
Thank you,
Irene
I’d be grateful for your papers and other writings on the topic.
Thank you,
Irene
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 14, 2019, 3:13:24 PM9/14/19
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Namaskar! Please see attached.
With regards,
Vishal Agarwal
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Irene Galstian
Sep 14, 2019, 4:03:06 PM9/14/19
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Thank you, Vishal, I appreciate it.
Irene
Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan
Sep 14, 2019, 6:08:23 PM9/14/19
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On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 9:07 PM विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:
नमस्ते,With lots of people unabashedly spreading misleading information, one would do well to listen to the population genetics experts hashing it out - https://www.brownpundits.com/2019/09/11/browncast-episode-66-ancient-india-and-dna-with-vagheesh-narasimhan/ . Vagheesh Narasimhan is the lead author of the paper that started this thread.An interesting point from there:- Selection for lactose tolerance in India occurred in the last millennium or two.On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:40 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:Darwin's theory of evolution was not based on genetic or archeological studies. It was a result of a close observation of the present living world and the close morphological relation that exist between species of the day.Observation of close morphological relation also led to the proposition of Lamarckian inheritance (inheritance of acquired characteristics). This was later rejected in favor of Darwin's theory. Furthermore, Darwin's theory have since found support and theoretical basis in genetics.One may campare OIT and AIT with Lamarckian and Dawinian theories.By basing evolution on archeological o r genetic studies these so called theorists have turned a blind eye towards what is obvious in the present.This is a serious misrepresentation since genetic studies closely look at present day genetic composition of geographically and ethnically diverse people.For example what happens just to the second or third generation of people who have migrated to the US? Do the language they speak there have any resemblence to their parents language though they may still carry the genetic print of their parents. One can only pity these theorists who have given up on their common sense in the endeavour of inventing new things.What language did second and third generation of Anglo Saxon people migrating to the US speak? One can only pity these theorists who have given up on their common sense in the endeavour of supporting counter-scientific things.
Well, for a complete equivalent, if they were speaking English with at most 30% Anglo Saxon genes (presumably in Alabama and KKK circles!) and 70% Native American genes, then we would have an equivalent, no? And that it is indeed the crux of the problem. The original idea was that Aryans came and destroyed everyone and imposed their culture same as Anglo Saxons. Now that there is no proof of any such thing, there is argumentation all around. Not that AIT or AMT is incorrect because of this. Just a comment.
Ramakrishnan
Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 14, 2019, 9:18:51 PM9/14/19
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1. Yes, uncivilized 'Aryans' 'destroyed' the cities of the 'civilized' 'Dravidian' Indus Valley inhabitants was the original theory.
The word 'civilization' in the phrase ' Indus Valley Civilization' emphatically refers to the 'city' aspect of the culture that is described using that phrase.
2. Now the recent articles talk about 'decline' of IVC. They do not talk about cities of IVC getting destroyed by an invading foreign race.
3. Moreover, they talk about how the Steppe pastoralists entered into India after the decline of the Harappan Civilization'.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 14, 2019, 9:19:14 PM9/14/19
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On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 3:38 AM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, for a complete equivalent, if they were speaking English with at most 30% Anglo Saxon genes (presumably in Alabama and KKK circles!) and 70% Native American genes, then we would have an equivalent, no? And that it is indeed the crux of the problem. The original idea was that Aryans came and destroyed everyone and imposed their culture same as Anglo Saxons. Now that there is no proof of any such thing, there is argumentation all around. Not that AIT or AMT is incorrect because of this. Just a comment.
That reminds one of the situation in central and south America, where people of higher European ancestry tend to be higher placed in the society. Still not an exact equivalent, of course, because of the mass extermination caused by disease, slavery and such.
Ramakrishnan
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Deva Pattanayak
Sep 14, 2019, 9:37:22 PM9/14/19
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"In short, much more work is needed and then analyzed with much greater sophistication and rigor before sweeping conclusions as in this paper are drawn. "
Much work is needed only for those who feel,a) what ever is presented by the authors is inaccurate., b) new or existing data does not agree with the conclusions,and c) some of the assumptions are not correct.
In my opinion, there exists till today a big divide between the peoples of the east and the west in fields other than science and engineering disciplines.
In the fields of linguistics, ,culture, sociology,anthropology,archeology,philosophy and mythology the western scholars draw a red line around Arab. The western scholars simply do not care not because they do not respect eastern culture but because they are simply overwhelmed.
The eastern islamic invaders settled in parts of India and played the game of raja dharma and attempted to annex kingdoms but left people to practice their own belief systems as long as they can and give taxes(jijia).
The westerners did not invade India because they had very little in common with the east and again as already mentioned had no intrinsic interest to settle down in the east.
The western society till today acts in the principle of divide and rule, weaken others by denigrating their ways and practices. Demolish best practices of the cultures and rule by "adharma".
That way a tiny country England colonised the entire globe until the people of the east woke up and got united to essentially throw the outsiders back to their own countries. Note that the eastern invaders adopted India to be their own land and fought against the foreigners.
What happened in parallel is that the basic knowledge of India in its Vedas, Upanishads and the Shastras became known to few intellectuals in the west. To their astonishment , they found that their own languages and understanding of the inner human nature, like mind, atma, adwaita ( tat tuam asi, thou art you etc) are not as advanced as that of the east.
They then hurdled to apply again their philosophy of divide and rule. They divided the human race into a superior Aryan race and the rest non-Aryan race, The consequence of such a caused havoc and unimaginable loss of life in not too distant a past.
In reality, people lived in various parts of the world. To start with in mountains and forest along with other evolving beings ( Nara and Banara, Sura and Asura etc. Then the humans found it easier to sustain their lives in the river banks which are relatively free from attacks from the wild animals. With time different regions developed sophisticated lifestyles and together advanced human knowledge and wellbeing.
It is important to stay away from divisionary thoughts and work together to understand each other's languages and mannerisms. Fortunately there are a lot in common with various parts of India than differences and that fact will help in the further development of knowledge.
East needs to open up its eyes and hearts and say no more and walk on their own soil without the incessant feeling to be accepted by the west. At the same time learn the good things(advanced science and technology) from the west and shed away the varna system altogether which is unconstitutional.
With best wishes
Deva
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Madhav Deshpande
Sep 14, 2019, 9:37:54 PM9/14/19
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Thank you, Vishal, for sharing your articles.
Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 14, 2019, 9:49:06 PM9/14/19
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On Sat, Sep 14, 2019 at 9:53 PM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Unfortunately this does not seem likely in the near future as I am very engaged in community activities teaching children and adults (in addition to my day job, family commitments etc) since 2008.
I am very curious what you teach these people about your so-called anti-brAhmain-supremacy ( https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/bvparishat/Fk23Mvx6VjM ) views. Would be obliged if you share relevant snippets in that thread.
Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 14, 2019, 10:02:08 PM9/14/19
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Characterizing Sri Vishal-ji's position as 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy' and not as 'anti-brAmhin' is deligent. Opposing Brahmin supremacist attitude is different from hating Brahmins.
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Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan
Sep 14, 2019, 11:15:58 PM9/14/19
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Prof. Paturi,
Yes, thank you. And yes, I have seen the same kind of "audience pleasing" by AMT theorists that they attribute to Shinde. In some company these people insist that there was no invasion and it was migration, but either give tacit or overt support to very bad people in India using AIT (not AMT) for political purposes.
So we are to believe that an advanced city civilization dwindled, found themselves unable to build cities elsewhere, retained 70% genes in the population (worst case!), but adopted the customs of uncivilized "immigrants". Makes perfect sense :-).
This is not to say OIT has no problems either.
But what is clear is that AIT has been used by nefarious political forces in India with disastrous results. That is very clear to me. There is either an underhanded motive among Western scholars or they are incredibly naive.
Ramakrishnan
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 14, 2019, 11:55:17 PM9/14/19
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On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 8:46 AM Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com> wrote:
But what is clear is that AIT has been used by nefarious political forces in India with disastrous results. That is very clear to me. There is either an underhanded motive among Western scholars or they are incredibly naive.
Courting punaruktidoSha here, but what can one do when post after post keeps beating the same drum:
That's because we've ceded that space to them! It is precisely because patriotic Hindu AIT discourse basically died of neglect and fancy in the past few decades that we have some inimical dravidianist / Christian / Muslim commentators dominating the popular imagination and the papers.
There is ultimately nothing really deadly to Hindus in AIT and nothing nutritious in OIT - it is just what one makes of it. Certain people will aim to thoroughly destroy us no matter what - it is foolish to think that rejecting the best scientific research and supporting alternative fantasies is going to change any of that.
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 15, 2019, 12:00:46 AM9/15/19
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On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 7:32 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:
Characterizing Sri Vishal-ji's position as 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy' and not as 'anti-brAmhin' is deligent.
I characterized it has *so-called* 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy', because "supreme" is ill-defined, and it is ridiculous to think that teachers hold this "supreme" position in society.
Opposing Brahmin supremacist attitude is different from hating Brahmins.
Anyway, this *so-called* 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy' attitude - even if not full fledged brahmin hatred - pretty much amounts to ungratefulness and scorn (besides having having other telling problems such as an inability to face facts).
Vishal Agarwal
Sep 15, 2019, 1:34:13 AM9/15/19
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Ramakrishnan Ji,
Not 70% genes. The maximum proportion of Central Steppe MLBA genes are 27% in _SOME_ groups (SOME Brahmins and Jats) who are respectively 3-4% and 5-6% of India's population only max. As you point out, the so called AMT and similar theories are merely a strategic retreat, and just a cover for the true face of AIT.
I am being accused of anti Brahminism. People can read the few of my published articles that I had attached earlier today (specifically the NCERT textbook reviews) to see how I have exposed the anti-Brahminism of others. Actually, a Muslim bigot published an article in the internet around 20 years ago to expose the 'Brahmin RSS agent Vishal Agarwal of Florida who wants to enslave Dalits'. Perhaps you can still find it somewhere on the Net. Thereafter he sent me pictures of body parts of a slaughtered cow in an email.
The biggest anti Brahmins are those who liken/compare Brahmins to Spanish Conquistadors ('high European Ancestry'). The latter had massacred, forcibly converted, raped, enslaved, looted Native Americans. I thought this nonsensical comparison was found only in the writings of Witzel (he wrote that Aryan horses = 'Vedic Tanks' = horses of Spaniards) and other Hinduphobic racists, but looks like some among us too have a vishvaas in these kind of things. I am not sure whether this gentleman has ever spent enough time in Andean highlands in places like Urubamba and Cuzco etc., or Yucatan etc. to see the in your face destruction of Mayas and Incas by the Spanish people. BTW, all the actions of the Spaniards are recorded in history, archaeology, oral memories, literature and in genetics; not to mention the fact that all but 5 countries of Latin America (Haiti, Peru, Bolivia, Equador and Paraguay) are majority White or Mestizo. Apparently, according to this view, the Brahmins/Aryans were so clever that just with a <10% genetic input into the entire population, they were able to change the language, religion, culture, etc etc of 80% of the Indian subcontinent which had just come out of a huge Bronze Age Civilization; and that too without leaving hardly a trace of any destruction of the original language, culture, religion. But, the foolish Conquistadors left original Native American names in most towns, rivers, villages, mountains intact! The Whites in Latin American remember their original homeland even today. The Vedic Brahmins forgot it even in the RV :-)
Perhaps, the Zeroth Reich was actually in India around 1939 BCE, and it was perhaps worse than the Third Reich in 1939 CE. Oh, but in the former, a yet to be formed 5% minority subdued the majority through peaceful migration using Vedic memes, whereas in the latter the 3% minority was exterminated.
Regards,
Vishal Agarwal
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Vishal Agarwal
Sep 15, 2019, 1:45:25 AM9/15/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
So you are trying to tell me something equivalent of how the casteists in N India say to those of lower castes,
"Ahsaan-pharaamosh! Apni aukaat mein rah aur zyaada dimaag mat chalaa") [Ungrateful man, know your place and do not tax your brain on matters beyond your understanding].
Do your realize that your posts on this controversy are exactly the material that editors of publications like 'Dalit Voice' or 'Dalit Freedom Network' like to quote?
Vishal
_____________
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Achyut Karve
Sep 15, 2019, 2:08:11 AM9/15/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Dear Vidwans,
Do all brahmins in India share any particular gene?
With regards,
Achyut Karve.
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Ramanujachar P
Sep 15, 2019, 3:31:39 AM9/15/19
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Thanks a lot for sharing these papers.
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 15, 2019, 5:41:14 AM9/15/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:15 AM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
So you are trying to tell me something equivalent of how the casteists in N India say to those of lower castes,"Ahsaan-pharaamosh! Apni aukaat mein rah aur zyaada dimaag mat chalaa") [Ungrateful man, know your place and do not tax your brain on matters beyond your understanding].
Really? A favorite quote comes to mind: "You can attack what a person *said* or what the person *meant*. The former is more sensational. The mark of a charlatan is to defend his position or attack a critic by focusing on *some* of his/her specific statement ("look at what he said") rather than attacking his position ("look at what he means"), the latter of which requires a broader knowledge of the proposed idea.""
Anyway - no. I am saying your *so-called* 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy' discourse is ill-considered - you've not taxed your brain enough, you should do a better job of correctly assessing the role of your society's ancient ritualist conservative class; and not act as if properly acknowledging their critical contributions is an assault on your vaNik self-respect or "samadarshI" turIya state or whatever.
Do your realize that your posts on this controversy are exactly the material that editors of publications like 'Dalit Voice' or 'Dalit Freedom Network' like to quote?
So? 70 years of OIT has brought them around to love us? You seriously think they're going to give us an easier time or more respect if we keep rejecting scientific research to prop up fantasies?
Vishal_____________On Saturday, September 14, 2019, 11:00:47 PM CDT, विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:Opposing Brahmin supremacist attitude is different from hating Brahmins.Anyway, this *so-called* 'anti-brAhmain-supremacy' attitude - even if not full fledged brahmin hatred - pretty much amounts to ungratefulness and scorn (besides having having other telling problems such as an inability to face facts).--
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विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
Sep 15, 2019, 5:58:51 AM9/15/19
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:04 AM 'Vishal Agarwal' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
The biggest anti Brahmins are those who liken/compare Brahmins to Spanish Conquistadors ('high European Ancestry'). The latter had massacred, forcibly converted, raped, enslaved, looted Native Americans. I thought this nonsensical comparison was found only in the writings of Witzel (he wrote that Aryan horses = 'Vedic Tanks' = horses of Spaniards) and other Hinduphobic racists, but looks like some among us too have a vishvaas in these kind of things.
Again this is charlatanry (referring back to the quote in https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/bPkh3AQ4Sg0/0P8CjmZSBQAJ ). For example, I'd already said:
" The IA invaders had "dharma" and a highly effective conservative core, which gave them the edge. (I don't think it is some teme like chariots or gene like lactose tolerance which can explain the massive invasion from the Ural area into Europe and Asia.) " (from https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/bPkh3AQ4Sg0/_z4jMAYZAgAJ )
and
"Islamic invasion of a pagan population (and one with a well established conservative social structure) is hardly comparable to the invasion of one pagan population over another (especially one with presumably lesser organizational/ conservative strengths)" (from https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/bPkh3AQ4Sg0/aXZg0Jz_AQAJ ).
" The IA invaders had "dharma" and a highly effective conservative core, which gave them the edge. (I don't think it is some teme like chariots or gene like lactose tolerance which can explain the massive invasion from the Ural area into Europe and Asia.) " (from https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/bPkh3AQ4Sg0/_z4jMAYZAgAJ )
and
"Islamic invasion of a pagan population (and one with a well established conservative social structure) is hardly comparable to the invasion of one pagan population over another (especially one with presumably lesser organizational/ conservative strengths)" (from https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/bPkh3AQ4Sg0/aXZg0Jz_AQAJ ).
Perhaps, the Zeroth Reich was actually in India around 1939 BCE, and it was perhaps worse than the Third Reich in 1939 CE. Oh, but in the former, a yet to be formed 5% minority subdued the majority through peaceful migration using Vedic memes, whereas in the latter the 3% minority was exterminated.
What a demonstration of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law !
"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1". Though early responses had lowered my expectations, I am still surprised that the famous Vishal Agarwal stoops his rhetoric to "reductio ad Hitlerum" level.
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venkat veeraraghavan
Sep 15, 2019, 6:17:37 AM9/15/19
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Vishal ji-
Thanks for the papers.
Vishvas ji and Vishal ji--
We all appreciate your debate but kindly give up on the personal attacks, which make this uncomfortable reading. It is entirely possible for two well meaning individuals to dig trenches on the different sides of a battlefield convinced that they are on the side of truth.
A lot of this has to do with different contexts and sources. There is a spaghetti of colonial and post independence lies that need untangling before a semblence of truth can emerge. See if you can examine the sources of the other and find fallacies in any of the implicit or explicit assumptions. That would be more productive than all this bad (precious) blood.
And I would counsel patience in such matters. Satya can never be established in a hurry. Only a lie can be arranged at short notice.
Kind Regards,
Venkat
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Nagaraj Paturi
Sep 15, 2019, 9:43:47 AM9/15/19
to bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Most members of the group may agree with the idea expressed in Sri Venkat's following words:
"We all appreciate your debate but kindly give up on the personal attacks, which make this uncomfortable reading. It is entirely possible for two well meaning individuals to dig trenches on the different sides of a battlefield convinced that they are on the side of truth."
As such , the discussion may go round and round without end.
The thread is being closed.
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