Valmiki Ramayana

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear friend scholars,

Happy Diwali.

While I continue to prod you on my previous request on the

pointers in research for the undergraduate students, I wish
to add another request. It is on Valmiki.

Valmiki Ramayana has fascinated me.  Please write to me
here or offline If any of you have done studies on the literature
and poetics of Valmiki's creation.  You may also give any link

of any critical studies in India that you may be aware of.  Let
me also confess that I am thoroughly disappointed with some
of the writings on the topic I have seen here in the west. They
appear dull and superficial.

Thank you for your help.

Bijoy Misra

Boston, US

    

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear friends,

Good morning.  I have not received any response yet.  Let me tell you my interest.

I thought of Ramayana more from a storytelling point of view when my granddaughters
learned to read.  Many of you could possibly be grandfathers, it's a privilege to be one.

Unlike our responsibility to our children, we are not directly responsible for the daily

development of the grandchildren, but they can bring enormous joy and happiness to

our lives.

Unlike back in India, the stories that the children read here are not thematic.  They are
created more to teach language than help reflect values.  Living as a debate of values has
not been popular in the western literature.  While some of the philosophical literature

can be analytic, living as a wholesome entity is still to be explored.  India possibly might

have gone through such a stage to arrive at a theory of containment, a possibility of

an event rather than a planned determination of an event.

Having admired Valmiki as an integrator of theories of life, I thought I would offer books

on Ramayana for my grandchildren to read. A monk and MIT and a yogi from Andhra

Pradesh had helped me to read Valmiki with them and I had loved his description. 

However I was utterly disappointed when I looked  at the available English translations.

The narrative style, the poetry, the diction are completely lost in the translations I found.

I checked Gita Press and they seemed to have copied some of this stuff with some
anonymity.  I have not examined the history of language conversions, but the greatness
of Indian storytelling has been covered up with words that are plucked from a dictionary

than used in the poetic context. 

Children grow up fast and I am losing time.  Little more than a year ago, I undertook the
task of creating a new storytelling translation of Valmiki that may be read by young people

as a story from world literature.  Twice a month I gather with a group of readers and I try

to assess Valmiki's approach through analysis and articulation.  I create the translation

when a block of time shows up.  There is a lag.  There is a lot of balancing to do.

While it is enjoyable, one immediately realizes our smallness compared to the nature
of the task.  I cannot say that I am a writer, mine is only an effort.  The material would
need editing by competent bilingual scholars.  If any of you has read so far about my
personal expedition, you may browse my translation.  They are posted as a blog at

http://misrabijoy.wordpress.com 
Please feel free to write to me any comments.  I am aware of my limitations but would

try to improve.  I have four more years to complete the work!

Valmiki is a genius of the first order.  As a poet, he is an observer and is sympathetic

to all characters he creates.  His creativity and style amazes me.  What we are given

in popular literature or thrown in through the TV serials are a distortion of this great

creative work.  Hopefully new plays, ballets, ballads and essays would be created

by taking the pieces of fabric that he has created.  It is the detailed analysis that
makes it so readable.  I don't know when the gross simplification started.  So was my
question to check any critical work in India on the material.  I would love to know.

Happy Diwali.

Bijoy Misra

Boston, USA

 

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[shankara]

Namaste,

Giving below titles of some well known studies on Valmiki Ramayana.

Ramayana Mimamsa by Karapatri Maharaj

Ramayana - A Linguistic Study by Satya Vrata Sastry

Lectures on Ramayana by VS Srinivasa Sastri

Sanskrit Vangmaya Ka Brihat Itihas Vol. 3 (Arsha Kavya - Ramayan aur Mahabharat)

 

regards
shankara

---

From: Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 19 October 2014 7:47 PM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Valmiki Ramayana

[Bijoy Misra]

Excellent.
If any of you has this in electronic form or information to procure would be very helpful.

[shankara]

Namaste,

All the four are available online.

https://archive.org/details/HindiBook-ramayana-mimansa.pdf

ramayana a linguistic study., 99999990841076. satya vrat. 1964. english. ramayana. 321 pgs.

Lectures On The Ramayana (1949)., 99999990133721. Sastri V. S. Srinivasa. 1949. english. RELIGION THEOLOGY. 510 pgs.

Sanskrit-wadamay ka Brihad Itihas., 5990010043177. . . hindi. Literature. 955 pgs.

regards
shankara

---

From: Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, 21 October 2014 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Valmiki Ramayana

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

For books please search archives and DLI web sites, If a book is no there one needs to purchase. Please refere to postings on the list about how to download books

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Neetesh]

Misra ji,

Namaste,

Glad to see your selfless effort, i cannot contribute anything as of now however i found the follwoing blog which i feel provides authentic info on events in Ramayan, as i feel the Tulsi Ramayan with agni pariksha and Luv Kush details were injected by Britishers to malign our scriptures.

Hope this helps.

http://ajitvadakayil.blogspot.in/2014/10/king-vali-and-queen-tara-of-ramayana.html

i am convinced with the arguments in the blog however not averse to new thoughts. i find the author of the blog (Ajit Vadakayil) very informative and authentic  (i found it when i read his other articles on his blog) so thought of sharing this info with you in your noble cause.

Pranam

Neetesh 

--
Neetesh

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

विजयमहाभाग, http://www.gita-society.com/pdf2011/ramayana.pdf  इति राजगोपालचारिवर्यस्य अनुकथनं रोचते वा ते?

मंगलवार, 21 अक्तूबर 2014 3:38:42 am UTC-7 को, Bijoy ने लिखा:

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Vasukeya,

Please do excuse me for writing in English.  Unlike many of you I am not equipped to write freely in Sanskrit in the web.

I was doing such with Sanskrit documents twenty years ago, but have not kept up.  Hope to catch up soon!

For your question Rajagopalachari assumes a different problem.  For whatever reason he calls Ramayana mythology
and not poetry.  Valmiki is a poet and not a myth maker.  We have to celebrate him for his creativity, narration, musicality
and melodic diction.  This is what I want to draw young people to.  A poet imagines, does not count in units, he/she
can see "rain" anywhere his/her mind sees.  The "rain" can be of flowers, of weapons, of grief or of joy.  It is not a
literal word.  This is where I think the early interpreters have thrown Valmiki as a myth maker than a splendid

wordsmith he is.  To me he is the greatest poet who ever lived, his characterization of each of the personalities is

meticulous, analytic, studious and natural. His narration of nature has an unique poetic charm.  Given that he creates

the story and develops the scene, makes me admire his creativity with awe and joy.

Rajagopalachari wants to present the story as myth not as a piece of literature.  I probably read it as a kid, but when

I read Valmiki now, each episode looks new and different to me.  Valmiki's genius has to be extracted and presented

to our young people as a signature of human literary creativity.  Though I try, my stock is limited.  It is not easy to transfer
the poetic material from one language to the other.  Valmiki's metaphors are local and are connected to the local culture.

To bring it out to an English speaking public is not straight-forward.  I find many translators making strange constructs

which possibly are forced by word by word translations imposed by the early missionary workers.  Valmiki's words change
meanings in context and he maintains his high poetic skills through these transpositions.  His "rain" takes different
meaning depending on its use in a phrase or a sentence.  I love it!  

 भवतः कृते प्रत्युत्तरं - मह्यं न रोचते...
एतद् तस्य अनुवादं नास्ति  गल्पाकारे लिखितम्..

Bijoy Misra

Boston, USA      

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Vijayji,

You have made a passing observation as follows::

Quote

I have not examined the history of language conversions,

Unquote

To my mind,  the language conversion is the most important aspect one has to keep in mind. The meaning and usage of the words / terms do change with time. For example the word "varsha" in Ramayana times was used to mean "day" and not year Just to give and example one finds translations of ancient texts where some rishis  were said to be doing tapasya for several thousand years, which is humanly impossible. Not only that, the misinterpretation of the word "varsha" led to misinterprettion of the Yuga scale in the Siddhanta texts and that in turn made people believe that Chaturyuga is 4,320,000 years long and that also makes Lord Ram a mythical person, born some million years ago.

I shall not go into the details of these, as my point here is to draw the attention of the scholars that the interpretation of the old texts have to done carefully and not just see whether it meets the Paninian rules.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2014-11-04 16:53 GMT-08:00 Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>:

To bring it out to an English speaking public is not straight-forward.  I find many translators making strange constructs

which possibly are forced by word by word translations imposed by the early missionary workers.  Valmiki's words change
meanings in context and he maintains his high poetic skills through these transpositions.  His "rain" takes different
meaning depending on its use in a phrase or a sentence. 

​अस्तु, एवन्तर्हि http://www.gutenberg.org/files/24869/24869-h/24869-h.html इति दृष्टो वा पद्यानुवादः?​

--

--
Vishvas /विश्वासः

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

अ​त्र ​पद्यत्वञ्च काव्यत्वञ्च मेऽतितरां रोचते - 

"To sainted Nárad, prince of those

Whose lore in words of wisdom flows.

Whose constant care and chief delight

Were Scripture and ascetic rite,

The good Válmíki, first and best

[pg 002]

Of hermit saints, these words addressed:9

“In all this world, I pray thee, who

Is virtuous, heroic, true?

Firm in his vows, of grateful mind,

To every creature good and kind?

Bounteous, and holy, just, and wise,

Alone most fair to all men's eyes?

Devoid of envy, firm, and sage,

Whose tranquil soul ne'er yields to rage?

Whom, when his warrior wrath is high,

Do Gods embattled fear and fly?"
"

अनेन सह तोलयतु - 

​"नारदं परिपप्रच्छ वाल्मीकिर्मुनिपुङ्गवम् || १||

​​

को न्वस्मिन्साम्प्रतं लोके गुणवान्कश्च वीर्यवान् |
धर्मज्ञश्च कृतज्ञश्च सत्यवाक्यो दृढव्रतः || २||
चारित्रेण च को युक्तः सर्वभूतेषु को हितः |
विद्वान्कः कः समर्थश्च कश्चैकप्रियदर्शनः || ३||
आत्मवान्को जितक्रोधो मतिमान्कोऽनसूयकः |
कस्य बिभ्यति देवाश्च जातरोषस्य संयुगे || ४||"

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Vasukeya,

Actually I have not translated the first few chapters.

Translation was not in my plans.  When I found

arbitrariness I started somewhere at Chapter X or so.

Let us examine the above.

 को न्वस्मिन्साम्प्रतं लोके गुणवान्कश्च वीर्यवान् |
धर्मज्ञश्च कृतज्ञश्च सत्यवाक्यो दृढव्रतः || २||

“In all this world, I pray thee, who

Is virtuous, heroic, true?

Firm in his vows, of grateful mind,

To every creature good and kind?

You can see how weak the translation is.

The (first cut) prose translation could be:

Do you know of anyone at the present time in our universe who is

virtuous as well as valorous, who is at the same time principled, grateful, truthful in words and steadfast in his vows?

Once you get the first cut, you can refine further.  You can add rhyme.

You can check the difference the two sentences.

A poet has a thought, the words carry the thought.  We have to extract the thought.

"Who is heroic?"  is different than "Is there anyone there whom we can call heroic?"

The second sentences defines what "heroic" qualifier is in the poet's eye.  The first is nominal.  (every day a dozen "heroes" come in TV)

Sanskrit is compact.  A few words can say a lot.  A stanza in Sanksrit can expand to several sentences in English.

My point is that a translator must be loyal to the poet to protect the thought.

I experiment this with a India Poets' Group I started at Harvard twenty years ago.

My father was a poet, I have hard time translating him.  Rabindranath did his own. 

As I said I have not studied Keith's work.  The above is my general observations on Sanskrit to English translations.

Best regards,

BM

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2014-11-05 13:48 GMT-08:00 Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>:

My point is that a translator must be loyal to the poet to protect the thought.

​किञ्च सूक्ष्मांशा लुप्ताश्चेदपि, रसस् सम्यगेव रक्षितः, छन्दोज-माधुर्यमपि रक्षितम्। तर्कायामि बालानां मनस्सु उचितमेव भावमुत्पादयिष्यन्ति। ताञ्च रामं प्रत्याकृषन्त्यपि।​

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Thu, Nov 6, 2014 at 3:18 AM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Vasukeya,

Actually I have not translated the first few chapters.

Translation was not in my plans.  When I found

arbitrariness I started somewhere at Chapter X or so.

Let us examine the above.
 को न्वस्मिन्साम्प्रतं लोके गुणवान्कश्च वीर्यवान् |
धर्मज्ञश्च कृतज्ञश्च सत्यवाक्यो दृढव्रतः || २||

“In all this world, I pray thee, who

Is virtuous, heroic, true?

Firm in his vows, of grateful mind,

To every creature good and kind?

You can see how weak the translation is.

The (first cut) prose translation could be:

Do you know of anyone at the present time in our universe who is

virtuous as well as valorous, who is at the same time principled, grateful, truthful in words and steadfast in his vows?

Once you get the first cut, you can refine further.  You can add rhyme.

You can check the difference the two sentences.

A poet has a thought, the words carry the thought.  We have to extract the thought.

"Who is heroic?"  is different than "Is there anyone there whom we can call heroic?"

The second sentences defines what "heroic" qualifier is in the poet's eye.  The first is nominal.  (every day a dozen "heroes" come in TV)

This your imaginatio of what the poet in his mind. To compare with the original word Sanskrit and your translation, the difference is great. 

Whom we call heroic, is different cannotation. It would convey that who is called heroic, but not a real hero. The word "hero" you have confused with the hero-s you can see in the TV-s, whereas the original word वीर्यवान् means who is valorous, or powerful. which is never conveyed by your far fetched English translation. The same with other adjectives which could be used both as adjectives and nouns. Both languages have limitations of their own in the usage of adjectives and nouns.

One should have first hand experience with both the language and not any random experience in one or both languages enough find errors.

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

वाल्मीकिरामायणम् -- how to comment and translate

What is this ? - a वेद called रामायणम्

Do you  mean what you say ? ....yes 

Then since you touched the अङ्गी , ie वेद ( both मन्त्रब्राह्मणभाग and उपनिषत्) , called रामायणम् , the वेदाङ्गs would automatically come into picture (अङ्गाङ्गिभाव ending up in विशेषणविशेष्यभाव) -

 even पूर्वमीमांसा and वेदान्त । 

Since it starts with तपस् and स्वाध्याय , योगदर्शनम् comes into picture .

 Later , to identify a महापुरुष etc. सामुद्रिकशास्त्रम् is required .

सीता is अयोनिजा - one may bring सांख्यदर्शनम्  also .

Why always with व्याकरणम् - let us start with another वेदाङ्ग् - 

ज्योतिषम् --

It was वसिष्ठ , who fixed the मुहूर्तम् , but सीता was in लङ्का - how and why ?

So first one has to discuss श्रीराम's जातकचक्रम् (horoscope) - 

At the same time - सीता is उत्पत्तिपरिपूता - any proof  - thru ज्योतिषम् ?

If you do not have सीता’s जातकचक्रम् , it is not a problem - take जामित्रम् (seventh राशि from लग्नम्) in श्रीराम’s जातकम् and from that, predict the personality of सीता -

 or if  you have good experience and पाण्डित्यम्, build the horoscope of सीता  from that .

Why वाल्मीकि  describes  नारद  - there should be some qualifications to identify a योगी / महापुरुष - 

similarly , if one wants to comment on रामायणम् , he should have mastered वेदs, वेदाङ्गs, पुराणs , दर्शनs etc. ie fourten (+) विद्यास्थानानि ।

पूर्वमीमांसा --

वार्षसहस्रिकम् दीर्घसत्रम् (see also पस्पशा - महाभाष्यम् - अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत्) -

here the word वर्ष means दिनम् -

 if you take as संवत्सर (twelve months) then it is applicable to गन्धर्वs only -

 although आयुर्वेद prescribes रसायनम् (tonic) it cannot enhance आयुष् of a मनुष्य to the tune of  1000 years and we have to take वेदवाक्यम् - ’शतायुः पुरुषः’ as प्रमाणम्      (शास्त्रदीपिका)

कुलकल्प ( one person starts the सत्रम् and children ,grandchildren etc have to complete) - this is not acceptable as it goes against the न्याय -

 ’ शास्त्रफलं प्रयोक्तरि ’ (शास्त्रदीपिका)|

Therefore जैमिनि (6-7-13 - 31 to 40)  in 

सहस्रसंवत्सरशब्दस्य सहस्रदिनपरताधिकरणम् --

rules -

सहस्रसंवत्सरं तदायुषाम् असंभवात् मनुष्येषु । .. न असामर्थ्यात् । ... स कुलकल्पः स्यादिति कार्ष्णाजिनिः एकस्मिन्नसंभवात्  ( 8 पूर्वपक्षाः)

अहानि वा अभिसंख्यत्वात् (सिद्धान्तः) 

तस्माद्विश्वसृजां सत्रं सहस्रदिनमुच्यते -- जैमिनिन्यायमाला 

" पञ्चपञ्चाशतः त्रिवृतः संवत्सराः पञ्चपञ्चाशतः पञ्चदशाः पञ्चपञ्चाशतः सप्तदशाः पञ्चपञ्चाशत एकविंशाः विश्वसृजामयनं सहस्रसंवत्सरम् "

                                                                                     - विषयवाक्यम् वेदे।

The sixth अध्याय(6-1)   - ' यागे दंपत्योः सहाधिकाराधिकरणम्" - is also very important  for रामायणम् - अद्वैतं सुखदुःखयोः ।

गृह्यसंग्रहः --

समा मासा अहोरात्राः तुल्याः ब्राह्मणचोदिताः ।

ब्राह्मणम् (what about  six ऋतवः - in a day ?) --

आदित्यो वा सर्व ऋतवः स यदैव उदेति  अथ वसन्तो यदा  सङ्गवो’थ ग्रीष्मो यदा मध्यन्दिनो’थ वर्षा यदा अपराह्णो’थ शरत् यदा अस्तमेति अथ हेमन्तशिशिरौ ।

The above ब्राह्मणमन्त्र is प्रमाणम् to जैमिनि ।

ततो रावणनीतायाः सीतायाः -- रावणनिन्दा has got its तात्पर्यम् into रामस्तुति  - 

why ?

by reading a वेद called रामायणम् , one should not develop grudge against रावण -  should be composed -

शबरस्वामी (2-4-2-21) offers नहिनिन्दान्याय ( see महावक्यविचारः) -

न हि निन्दा निन्द्यं निन्दितुं प्रवर्तते । किं तर्हि ? निन्दितादितरत् प्रशंसितुम् । तत्र न निन्दितस्य प्रतिषेधो गम्यते किन्त्वितरस्य विधिः

निन्दार्थवाद  is for स्तुति of स्तुत्य ।

’ रामवद्वर्तितव्यम् , न तु रावणादिवत् ’ - is the(आर्थम्) महावाक्यम् ( like तत्त्वमसि- छान्दोग्यम्)

रामायणम्  is a (शाब्दं ) महावाक्यम् / महाकाव्यम् ।

This is just a sample to exhibit as to how difficult it is to comment on रामायणम्

Needless to say anything about  translation  as no other language on earth is as rich as संस्कृतम् ।

One may do a rough ( without claim to accuracy) translation and today we have to contend with the available commentaries --

something is better than nothing

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Personal Website: www.korada.org

[Bijoy Misra]

On Wed, Nov 5, 2014 at 9:50 PM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Bhat,

You are trivializing the issue.

How do you know the poet is to recite the poem loud, recite many times to get to what
the connotation is.Sometimes you have to read much beyond the stanza to "feel" the
poet. 

If you write poetry, the diction of a word is not on paper but it is in your sound. Each word

has a different "color" when used in poetry.  I am not as random as you seem to think!

Of course, if you are a poet and talking from your experience, I have nothing to counter!

To me, a word represents a thought and one should try to dig it out!  You can continue

the way you think right..  I do respect your learning, but I stand by the poet!

BM    

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Prof Korada,

I love the post.  What I request all translators is not to rush.

We have to appreciate the compositional process first.  We have to observe

how words evolve in us through intense absorption and insight.  Composition

words "appear" to us, the process continues to remain undefined.  There is a
melody.  Melody contains stress and intonation.  Sound is an expression.
We observe part of it when a poet recites his own poem.  There is a joy of expression

which mirrors the original joy of composition.

In order to translate a poem, we have to feel that joy.  This joy is not "feeling good"

or "understand," but an alignment with the poet.  I call this "rasa" and do

neurological research on the advent of "rasa" in humans.  I will present part of
this work in World Sanskrit Conference at Bangkok next year.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

============Mod note==========

Dear Dr.Misra,

Please make a single post to express your views. There is no need to write to scholars individually. Its better to engage in discussions than disputations this my opinion

[Bijoy Misra]

I totally agree with Prof Korada and love his insight.  While all the requisite tools
might not get ready, what I request all translators is not to rush.

We have to appreciate the compositional process first.  We have to observe

how words evolve in us through intense absorption and insight.  Composition

words "appear" to us, the process continues to remain undefined.  The word is
the culmination of the internal tools that Prof Korada so beautifully explained.
The word has an inner connectivity.  There is a melody.  Melody contains stress
and intonation.  Sound becomes an expression.  I have read various texts on the subject,
but these statements are from my own experimentation during the last thirty years.

We observe part of this meditative energy when a poet recites his own poem. 

There is a joy of expression which mirrors the original joy of composition.

In order to translate a poem, we have to feel that joy.  This joy is not "feeling good"

or "understand," but an alignment with the poet.  I call this "rasa" and lately do

neurological research on the advent of "rasa" in humans.  I will present part of
this work in World Sanskrit Conference at Bangkok next year.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

2014-11-06 4:38 GMT-05:00 Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>:

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Of course, I am not a poet nor a singer. Ramayana is a poetry and I have learnt how to understand and enjoy a poetry as taught by Anandavardhanacarya, the कविसहृदयचक्रवर्ती. Valmiki is the first poet and the first singers of his poetry were Lava and Kusha, who spread it by singing it all around and reached Ayodhya.

Music is singing the poetry, which is composed in any language. And enjoyment of Singing Music piece, need not have any knowledge of grammar or language, but the experience of Enjoy the musical composition. 

It has been said:

शिशुर्वेत्ति पशुर्वेत्ति वेत्ति गानरसं फणी।

साहित्यरसमाधुर्यं शङ्करो वेत्ति वा न वा।। 

You can stick to your opinion that both are same. I have my view confirmed from literary sources I have read. 

काव्यस्यात्मा स एवार्थस्तथा चादिकवेः पुरा .

क्रौञ्चद्वन्द्ववियोगोत्थः शोकः श्लोकत्वमागतः .. ५..

This is the opinion of Anandavardhanacharya, about the feeling of the poet becoming a poetry on the example of the same Valmiki and the very same Ramayana. You may your own opinion.

Both are compared and contrasted in a single verse:

संगीतमथ साहित्यं सरस्वत्या स्तनद्वयम्। 

एकमापातमधुरमन्यदालोचनामृतम्।"

With regards

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2014-11-06 5:15 GMT-08:00 Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com>:

Music is singing the poetry, which is composed in any language.

​किञ्च सङ्गीताय अर्थपूर्णशब्दा अपि नापेक्षिताः। तथा गद्यकाव्यं न गानमपेक्षते आस्वादार्थम्।​

[Jsr Prasad]

अयि भोः, प्रायः भवान् पाश्चात्यसङ्गीतमधिकृत्याभिप्रैति । किन्तु तत्रापि lyrics सन्त्येव ननु । शास्त्रीयसङ्गीते अर्थपूर्णशब्दप्रयोग एव भवति, नोचेत् रसोत्पत्तिरथरसास्वादो वा कथं भवेत् । ज्ञायतां, तमिलनाडुराज्यस्थ 'एट्टयापुर'नामके ग्रामे श्री मुत्तुस्वामिदीक्षितर् आलापित-अमृतवर्षिण्यः वृष्टिपातं, तथा तान् सेन् महाशयः दीपकरागालापनेन दीपज्वालनमकुर्वन्निति । अर्थरहितसङ्गीतश्रवणेन शुशुरुत पशुर्वा भावं कथं वेत्ति ?

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Dr. Jsra Prasad,
Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803

[Nityanand Misra]

On Friday, November 7, 2014 10:56:15 AM UTC+5:30, Jsra Prasad wrote:

अयि भोः, प्रायः भवान् पाश्चात्यसङ्गीतमधिकृत्याभिप्रैति । किन्तु तत्रापि lyrics सन्त्येव ननु । शास्त्रीयसङ्गीते अर्थपूर्णशब्दप्रयोग एव भवति, नोचेत् रसोत्पत्तिरथरसास्वादो वा कथं भवेत् । ज्ञायतां, तमिलनाडुराज्यस्थ 'एट्टयापुर'नामके ग्रामे श्री मुत्तुस्वामिदीक्षितर् आलापित-अमृतवर्षिण्यः वृष्टिपातं, तथा तान् सेन् महाशयः दीपकरागालापनेन दीपज्वालनमकुर्वन्निति । अर्थरहितसङ्गीतश्रवणेन शुशुरुत पशुर्वा भावं कथं वेत्ति ?

This view is supported by बृहद्देशी of मतङ्ग मुनि, which defines a Rāga as 

स्वरवर्णविशेषेण ध्वनिभेदेन वा पुनः। रज्यते येन यः कश्चित्स रागः सम्मतः सताम्॥ २८० ॥

योऽसौ ध्वनिविशेषस्तु स्वरवर्णविभूषितः। रञ्जको जनचित्तानां स च राग उदाहृतः॥ २८१ ॥

The work can be read here

https://ia601602.us.archive.org/20/items/Trivandrum_Sanskrit_Series_TSS/TSS-094_Brihaddesi_of_Matangamuni_-_KS_Sastri_1928.pdf

The great Hindustani vocalist Pandit Channulal Mishra of Varanasi, one of the few vocalists today with a knowledge of classical texts of music, sings a variation of the second verse in his performances. He subscribes to this view that Indian music in general and Rāgas in particular are of no use without meaningful words. In his view, long Ālāpa-s without meaningful words are nirarthaka. 

[Jsr Prasad]

2014-11-07 12:26 GMT+05:30 Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com>:

The great Hindustani vocalist Pandit Channulal Mishra of Varanasi, one of the few vocalists today with a knowledge of classical texts of music, sings a variation of the second verse in his performances. He subscribes to this view that Indian music in general and Rāgas in particular are of no use without meaningful words. In his view, long Ālāpa-s without meaningful words are nirarthaka. 

Thanks for the link on Brhaddesi and the quotation. It is heartening to know the views of Pandit Channulal Mishra on the bhāvasahitarāga and ālāpa. I think, his views must be considered extraordinary amongst the musicians.

Next, on the comment <तथा गद्यकाव्यं न गानमपेक्षते आस्वादार्थम्।>, there is an example. In Telugu stotra literature, a kind of prose called 'daṇḍakam' is 'sang' in praise of deities, for instance hanumaddaṇḍakam etc.

Regards

[Hnbhat B.R.]

दण्डक is not prose anyhow. It is verse itself, without पादनियम, that is all, but each पाद is composed with गण-s like any पाद verse. In चम्पूः, also there are proses and and verses also. Even without reading aloud, one can understand enjoy the रस, भाव, व्यभिचारिभाव and रसध्वनि also. If both are sang melodiously, the melody itself could be enjoyed appealing to the ears. This is the intention of the quotation:

शिशुर्वेत्ति पशुर्वेत्ति वेत्ति गानरसं फणी।

for which we have examples from daily life also. Listening to the lulubies, children are sleeping enjoying the melody, and for पशु, the lute of श्रीकृष्ण is examples, which attracted the cows when he sang his lute. The last could not be attested, which could be a myth in general. But the playing the flute, makes the serpent to move its hood to and frow. This may be a false belief as the serpents do not have hearing organs, but receives only the vibrations, through its skin as I am told. But Indian belief is that the serpent is using its eyes as the hearing organ as the name चक्षुःश्रवाः। That does not mean they do not have any lyrics. The emphasis is on enjoying the melody and the music. 

The same was said by the other example:\

संगीतमथ साहित्यं सरस्वत्याः स्तनद्वयम्।

एकमातमधुरमन्यदालोचनामृतम्।

which shows the diffence in the enjoyment of music. The emphasis is on the musical comosition, than the composition of the lyrics and that does not mean there should be any lyrics without words.

This is traditional view. The musical rendition would be better appreciated, if emphasis is given to the lyrics and by those who know the language of the lyrics. This is a fact. Many do not give emphasis to the composition of the lyrics, as they themselves do not know Sanskrit language and many a times wrongly spelt. But they have audience equally enjoying the melody and the composition of music. Only earlier generation singers, have some knowledge of Sanskrit, but not enough to reflect them in their singing before an audience who do not at all any knowledge of Sanskrit, or the language of the lyrics. Many great singers play with the सप्तस्वर-s only withut any meaningful words in themselves, which represent the the names of the स्वर-s and people with music compositions enjoy them.

The short and long of the quotations quoted by me is this, The गानरस and साहित्यरस are different and enjoyed differently. And not that there could be रस, भाव-s, स्थायिभाव only in the verbal composition and not in musical composition excepting the composition lyrics.

Scholars and Musicians members could offer their different opinion like Channulal Mishra and Nityananda Mishra.

उच्चरितः शब्दः प्रत्यायको भवति नानुच्चरितः इति महाभाष्यकारवचनम्। which emphasis on the pronounciation of the words to give meaning which can be taken in support of the lyrics in a musical composition.

And "बौद्धः शब्दः बौद्धश्चार्थः"

is another view. When we read from the graphical presentation of the वर्ण-s, the meaning is understood without reciting aloud. For argument, there too one can understand as one reads himself in audible representations of the वर्ण-s in his mind, without pronouncing them  physically. That is how the silent reading of a book, gives the meaning for the words in the book without reading aloud.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2014-11-06 21:26 GMT-08:00 Jsr Prasad <jsrap...@gmail.com>:

अर्थरहितसङ्गीतश्रवणेन शुशुरुत पशुर्वा भावं कथं वेत्ति ?

​आर्यस् स्वयं परीक्षताम् - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRHH-nCtEC8 ।​

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

​Are we now​ taking about some singing group here? We have singers all over India who sing Ramayana especially sundara kanda. Many who donot know a word of Sanskrit do enjoy music with utmost devotion .I shall eagerly wait for  what you call this "rasa" and lately do neurological research on the advent of "rasa" in humans. "

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Bijoy Misra]

Having experimented through writings and observing people's recitations, I have made a conviction that the words are
already formed to the internal melody the poet creates.  Hence I observe that a word is a component in a larger construct

of a phrase or sometimes a full stanza.  My experience in reading literature has been that the meaning of the stanza

reveals itself by loud reading of the stanza with the prescribed prosodic variation.  There is a joy in approximation

when one gets closer to the possible rhyme in the poet's mind.  I love this discussion particularly the latest link

to Brhaddesi by our esteemed scholar Sri Nityananda Misra.  The recitation by his guru Pandit Ramabhadracharya

has a lot to do with my thinking.

Best regards,

BM    

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1. Dr. Prasad probably remembered a genre of stotra literature in Telugu called 'gadya' (e.g. 'aksharaankagadya' by paalkuriki somanaathuDu) or 'vachanamulu' (e.g. simhagirinaraharivachanamulu by KrishNamaachaaryulu) which appears to be prose from the name of the genre and its style of writing but is in fact read out in a kind of a singing style and mentioned it by mistake  'dandakamu'. Dr. H N Bhat is right in saying that dandaka is in fact a metre. (It runs in continuous flow of either all ta gaNas or all ra gaNas or ra gaNas with additional conditions on beginnings and endings.)

 

2. The word s'ravya kaavya itself indicates that such kaavya is meant for reading out and to be heard from the read out version. That the author of a s'ravya kaavya composes his work expecting a certain rendition in the form of reading out (singing out for a verse book) goes without saying. That the generation of intended rasa in the sahrdyya-audience of a sravya kaavya comes can be successful only through the reading (singing ) out rendition of it in the style expected by the author is also implied in this obvious nature of a s'ravya kaavya.

 

3. That Aanandavardhanaachaarya's attempt and following him, Abhinavaguptapaada's attempt was to create a rasanishpatti analysis suited for the s'ravyakaavya as opposed to the drs'yakaavya-oriented analyses of the previous analysts has also been well recognized. Aanandavardhanaachaarya openly acknowledges his indebtedness to Bhartrhari and the sphOTa in his creation of  the theory of dhvani.

 

4.It is true that gaana rasa can be different from saahitya rasa/ kaavya rasa. But that saahitya rasa /kaavya rasa from a s'ravya kaavya in the form of verse is generated in the sahrdaya-audience through the singing out of the verse is also true. gaana rasa comes from a music performance which may take the help of a text. Here role of text is secondary. Role of singing is primary.In a singing out performance of a s'ravyakaavya, role of the text is primary. The role of singing may be secondary. But can not be ruled out nor is insignificant.         

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Hnbhat B.R.]

4.It is true that gaana rasa can be different from saahitya rasa/ kaavya rasa. But that saahitya rasa /kaavya rasa from a s'ravya kaavya in the form of verse is generated in the sahrdaya-audience through the singing out of the verse is also true. gaana rasa comes from a music performance which may take the help of a text. Here role of text is secondary. Role of singing is primary.In a singing out performance of a s'ravyakaavya, role of the text is primary. The role of singing may be secondary. But can not be ruled out nor is insignificant.         

The question whether the question whether the poet composed the lyric orally first and then some of his students put down the poetry in writing is a different thing. We have to assume either the art of writing is a later invention according to the history of writing or as the script named Brahmi Lipi, is invented by Brahma himself, which could be available to our sages. In both cases, the words have written form after the invention of writing, and according to the history of civilization, the development of script took a long time of duration. Whether spoken language or written language, the process of conveying of meaning is the same. No singing is needed for understand the contents, from the written content and vice versa. Only the prior condition is that one has get the शक्तिग्रह from the written or spoken words. Singing of a poetry is its spoken form and the written form of the language as I had explained and व्यवहार is the शक्तिग्राहकशिरोमणि, according to मीमांसक-s and नैयायिक-s. The means of the शक्तिग्रह is described in भाषापरिच्छेद as follows:

शक्तिग्रहं व्याकरणोपमानकोशाप्तवाक्याद् व्यवहारतश्च।

वाक्यस्य शेषाद् विवृतेर्वदन्ति सान्निध्यतः सिद्धपदस्य वृद्धाः।।

व्यवहार is the spoken form of the language in daily usage. This may be the metrical form or prose form, the metrical form used for daily speech is less likely. And singing of the poetry is not anyof the means of शक्तिग्रह, but repetition increases the melody and get the verses by heart by reading aloud. But it is different from the means of शक्तिग्रह called व्यवहार. Now it is the invention of Bijoy Mishra that repetition of the poetry adds to the meaning to be understand the poet's intention. Good Invention. But that doesn't decrease the importance of the other means of शक्तिग्रह.

I have heard of many claimes of the medical effects of singing and some experiments on the growth of plants with and without music, and the difference in growth rate was higher. The plants do not know the words or their meanings or Rasa-s derived from the शब्द, अर्थ,and both and purely by the context, गतोऽस्तमर्को भातीन्दुर्यान्ति वासाय पक्षिणः। which simply conveys different meaning by hearing to it. Dandin and Bhamaha differ themselves whether this piece is a poetry or not. 

Here is one page:

http://www.all-science-fair-projects.com/print_project_1301_143

There are many such claims on different pages on the web. 

वक्तृबोद्धव्यकाकूनां वाक्यवाच्यान्यसन्निधेः ॥ काप्र-२१ ॥ 

प्रस्तावदेशकालादेर्वैशिष्ट्यात् प्रतिभाजुषाम् । 

यो ऽर्थस्यान्यार्थधीहेतुर्व्यापारो व्यक्तिरेव सा ॥ काप्र-२२ ॥

The simultaneous sphontaneous conveying the meaning of any sentence metrical or non-metrical sentence, is described in the following verse quoted in भाषापरिच्छेद-

वृद्धा युवानः शिशवः कपोताः खले यथाऽमी युगपत् पतन्ति । 

तथैव सर्वे युगपत्पदार्थाः परस्परेणान्वयिनो भवन्ति ॥ 

And lyrics of

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

You have made a passing mention about the beginning of writing, I have a query. If this query needs a separate tread, kindly advise. The query is that, to my knowledge, the Aitareya aranyaka (if I am not mistaken) makes a reference to writing. Does it not show that Vedic rishis knew how to write ?

Regards,

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

but repetition increases the melody and get the verses by heart by reading aloud

 

Role of versification as an aid for memorization is not disputed. In the case of non-poetic verse works, role of metre could be said to be limited only as a memorization-aid. But in the case of poetic works it is not limited to memorization aspect. Singing is in addition to the inherent musicality secured by the metre. BhaavOchita singing of verses of poetic works is a well established tradition in India (probably in other countries too) and can not be said to be without purpose.

 

Repeated singing for memorization is different from bhaavOchita singing out performance  of a poetic verse-text for an audience or for one's own enjoyment.  

 

Independence of efficacy of music from textual aid is also not disputed.

 

Application of S'aktigraha to rasanishpatti of s'ravyakaavya comes under the application of schools such as anumitivaada of rasanishpatti to s'ravyakaavya. Even that does not come in the way of role of singing out of the text in rasanishpatti because these schools recognize the role of abhinaya of anukarta in the rasanishpatti by arguing that processes such as anumaana generate the rasa and anumaana is done from the units of both verbal and non-verbal communication. Singing out the s'ravyakaavya text is a non-verbal component of the s'ravyakaavya performance. This plays as important a role as abhinaya in the drs'yakaavya performance. Just as a drs'yakaavya text composing poet composes the text depending on the abhinaya of the text, s'ravyakaavya text-composing poet too composes the text depending on/ expecting/ anticipating the singing out of his text and s'raavyataa resulting from it.  

--

निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:08 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

but repetition increases the melody and get the verses by heart by reading aloud

 

Role of versification as an aid for memorization is not disputed. In the case of non-poetic verse works, role of metre could be said to be limited only as a memorization-aid. But in the case of poetic works it is not limited to memorization aspect. Singing is in addition to the inherent musicality secured by the metre. BhaavOchita singing of verses of poetic works is a well established tradition in India (probably in other countries too) and can not be said to be without purpose.

I myself have read almost all the texts I had to learn aloud, and I myself can enjoy the भाव or रस through the verbal representation of the words, but I do not know the a,b,c,d of music or संगीतशास्त्र. But it could be read according to the metrical arrangement and if the verses and enjoyed and sung independently. But its aid as a शक्तिग्रह is only disputed. Beyond verbal expression, every thing is नादब्रह्म and enjoyed like the bliss. शक्तिग्रह belongs to the अपोद्धर of अखण्डस्फोट and ध्वन्याचार्य knows it also, as Abhinavaguptacharya, confirms who is also a philosopher like आनन्दवर्धन and commented on the रससूत्र and consolidated views on रसास्वाद up to his time. "अभिधा भावना चैव तद्भोगीकृतिरेव च" which calls for भावना to appreciate the रस in a poetry. "शब्दार्थौ सत्कविरिव द्वयं विद्वानपेक्षते।" is the position of माघ. "रमणीयार्थप्रतिपादकः शब्दः" which is a refined definition of a poetry by Dandin, "शरीरं तावदिष्टार्था पदावली" which was prior to the recognition of ध्वनि as "काव्यस्यात्मा स एवार्थः" which is different from the शरीर of काव्य.

If it singing only could be the source of भाव, without शक्तिग्रह in a poetry or an independent means of शक्तिग्रह in a poetry, what is it that is enjoyed by the listeners enjoying of Carnatic Music composed in different languages other than Sanskrit, Telugu, Tamil, Karnataka? Of course one receives the भाव or some रस, by listening to the शात्रीयसंगीत, composed in different languages, than the audience knows and has शक्तिग्रह from the Verbal composition? Certainly it could not be the रस, or भाव-s presented by the verbal expression as a language as the audience could not be expected to know all the languages in which कृति-s as the musical compositions are generally called and not as a काव्य. This much was meant. And तात्पर्य or defined the "; "वक्तुरिच्छा तु तात्पर्यं परिकीर्तितम् Bhāṣā P.84" should be grasped through अभिधा, and भावना, excepting लक्षणा, तात्पर्य (which is a शब्दवृत्ति) or व्यञ्जना. 

१.४

प्रतीयमानं पुनरन्यदेव वस्त्वस्ति वाणीषु महाकवीनाम् ।

यत्तत्प्रसिद्धावयवातिरिक्तं विभाति लावण्यमिवाङ्गनासु  ॥ कारिका१.४ ॥

The dispute between अभिधा and व्यञ्जना has been solved by भोज as follows:

तात्पर्यमेव वचसि ध्वनिरेव काव्ये सौभाग्यमेव गुणसंपदि वल्लभस्य। 

सावण्यमेव वपुषि स्वदतेऽङ्गनायाः श्रृङ्गार एव हृदि मानवतो जनस्य।। 5 ।। in his शृङ्गारप्रकाश.

retaking the same comparison of आनन्दवर्धन.  व्यञ्जना is established as शब्दवृत्ति, extending the scope of verbal expression. And रस is expressed through व्यञ्जनावृत्ति itself, in so far as it is within the scope of शब्दवृत्ति by Anandavardhana. 

  

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1.BhaavOchita verse-singing does not need any training in s'aastreeya sangeeta though knowing s'aastreeya sangeeta may give an advantage in this regard. 

 

2. But its aid as a शक्तिग्रह is only disputed

------Singing as the non-verbal component of s'ravyakaavya performance does not have a role in the arthagrahaNa of the paaTha of the text. Svara does have a role in arthagrahaNa. Intonation does have a role in arthagrahaNa. bhaavOchita verse-singing takes care of such artha-communicating non-verbal aspects of uttering. Rasaanubhava is not limited to arthagrahaNa. That is why I said, "Singing out the s'ravyakaavya text is a non-verbal component of the s'ravyakaavya performance. This plays as important a role as abhinaya in the drs'yakaavya performance."

 

3. OK. Dr. H N Bhat himself said earlier in this thread itself, "Valmiki is the first poet and the first singers of his poetry were Lava and Kusha, who spread it by singing it all around and reached Ayodhya." Does the singing of Lava and Kus'a have significance or not ? or Was that not required? Is it not appropriate to imagine that the singing of Lava and Kus'a was not limited to metre-based singing aloud but was also a bhaavOchita singing to create the emotional effect and ecstasy intended by vaalmeeki among the audience?

 

4. In a classical music concert, dhaatu and maatu play their own roles. The meaningful text part of the maatu does play an important role and that controls even the composition of the dhaatu. But that is a different issue. That is totally a different issue than the singing of a s'ravyakaavya. 

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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

A Sahruydaya can get Tatparya or  better understanding of a kavya or a nataka  with the aid of alamkara shastra and vyakarna which eventually leads to rasa anubhava. Rasa anubhava can even be spontaneous on seeing a play or hearing a good verse. How Rasa anubhava happens or is experienced is discussed by many alankara Shastra writers. Music and singing of verses has got to do more with devotion and is content independent. Bhakti Bhava may also lead to bliss. Even if I don't understand Latin language I still can go to bliss if I hear nice Latin verses sung by a good singer. That does not mean a singer or a person listening to music is a real sahrudaya who has understood the poet or what the poet intended to covey. Whether Bhakti is a rasa ashta and nava rasa theories are disputed concepts in alamkara Shastra

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Nagaraj Paturi]

It is true that "Rasa anubhava can even be spontaneous on seeing a play or hearing a good verse"

 

"How Rasa anubhava happens or is experienced is discussed by many alankara Shastra writers."

 

But none of them indicate that

 

"A Sahruydaya can get Tatparya or  better understanding of a kavya or a nataka  with the aid of alamkara shastra and vyakarna which eventually leads to rasa anubhava" 

 

 "Music and singing of verses has got to do more with devotion and is content independent. Bhakti Bhava may also lead to bliss."

 

----Then in that case, what is

 

पाद बद्धः अक्षर समः तन्त्री लय समन्वितः |
शोकार्तस्य प्रवृत्तो मे श्लोको भवतु न अन्यथा || १-२-१८ ?

 

Was that not s'oka ? Was that bhakti?

 

and was the singing of RaamaayaNa by Lava and Kus'a devotional?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I have already given my views. If one still insists that instead of reading using the aids understanding canons of Alankara Shastra and Vyakarna and other shastric aids are not good enough aids to understand kavyas but one needs to keep singing them I have nothing to add. That will be music and not kavya appreciation Singing of Ramayana of Ramayana by Lava and Kusha was an act of devotion

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I forgot to add this a singer, a reciter can be a sahrudaya but all sahrudayas need not resort to singing an just because I don't read verses aloud and sing the verses that does not mean I have not understood Ramayana and the intent of the verse. A person equipped with training in alankara, vyakarna and other shastras is better equipped to appreciate criticize and enjoy great compositions such as Ramayana than by singers  who want keep singing them Bhakti has a place a very high place but is not the only means or an end by itself to appreciate kavyas. I know there may not be any unanimity. I read Ramayana with great devotion and used to even now read verses aloud many a times but that's different.

Fresh translations of all classics may be needed to help those who don't know Sanskrit or cannot completly read and understand in Sanskrit that is a good idea and has to be done. I am in agreement.

We now have a now abrand of scientists who have  left their labs, their equations and have started to read sanskrit that is very good and deserves appreciation from all.  But they too often bring in unfounded science into literature and Vedas which serve no purpose. For them Sayana or Bhartha or Abhinava Gupta knew nothing and think they are better equipped to teach Kavyas and vedas than a trained scholar who works in the domain of Sanskrit. A professor in Physics is not going to read relativity theory from popular books and says this how science is or should be. Same to sahitya it needs specialists who are equipped shsatric knowledge about alankara  Vyakarana and related ideas to give views which will depth and the needed breath in academic forums and also outside academic forums.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2014-11-08 2:26 GMT-08:00 Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>:

Music and singing of verses has got to do more with devotion and is content independent.

​अत्र नागराजार्यस्य आक्षेपस् स्थाने एव, अजित। भावस्य पोषणायैव केचन कवयः छन्दः चिन्वन्ति। भावस्य नाम न केवलं भक्तिर् - अपि तु शोक-विस्मयादीनामपि। श्रूयते यत् काव्याचार्या अप्यङ्गीकुर्वङ्गीति विषयमिमम्। छन्दश्-शब्दालङ्कारादिकं खलु उच्चारणमार्गेणैव भावं पुष्णाति। यथा वियोगिनीछन्दसः शोकसूचकं‌ प्रभावं न वा प्रसिद्धम् ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue6zkkKc7eQ ) ?

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

अहो माभूद् अन्येषां श्रमः ज्ञातदोषसूचने इति स्वयं शोधयामि प्राक्प्रेषितं पत्त्रम्।

2014-11-08 16:39 GMT-08:00 विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>:

2014-11-08 2:26 GMT-08:00 Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>:

Music and singing of verses has got to do more with devotion and is content independent.

​अत्र नागराजार्यस्य आक्षेपस् स्थाने एव, अजित। भावस्य पोषणायैव केचन कवयः छन्दः चिन्वन्ति। भावस्य नाम न केवलं

​​

भक्तिर् - अपि तु शोक-विस्मयादीनामपि।

​भक्तेर् इति​

 

श्रूयते यत् काव्याचार्या अप्यङ्गीकुर्वङ्गीति विषयमिमम्। छन्दश्-शब्दालङ्कारादिकं खलु उच्चारणमार्गेणैव भावं पुष्णाति। यथा वियोगिनीछन्दसः

​​

शोकसूचकं‌

​​

प्रभावं न वा

​​

प्रसिद्धम् ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ue6zkkKc7eQ ) ?

​शोकसूचकः प्रभावः न वा प्रसिद्ध इति।​

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Bijoy Misraji made an interesting proposal during the course of this thread:

 

"In order to translate a poem, we have to feel that joy.  This joy is not "feeling good"

or "understand," but an alignment with the poet.  I call this "rasa" and do

neurological research on the advent of "rasa" in humans."

 

 "I call this "rasa"" leads to problems because 'Rasa' is a well established technical term. So we can not use it in a different sense than what it connotes technically in the s'aastra where it belongs. If it is being used in the same established sense as established in the s'aastra, then the proposal that the translator gets into and needs to get into the 'Rasa' intended by the author of the translated work is anyway given.

 

The biggest difficulty in the poetic translations from Sanskrit to English in the s'raavyataa aspect only. Another problem is translating from an oral tradition to a literate tradition. Post-printing technology literate literary creations anticipate /orient themselves to silent reading, मौनपठनम्. Poetic works of oral societies/traditions/times are predominantly recitation-oriented and recitation-dependent.

 

 

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Bijoy Misra]

I am grateful to Prof Paturi to have noticed the point that in my mind.  While I am aware

through my readings of literature on the technical use of "rasa" it is the advent of "rasa" that

has interested me variously for a few years.  The literature suggests that "rasa" is an effect,

but I find the use of the concept is cosmological. I think that "rasa" is built in any composition

that helps streamline thoughts for communication.  I will be writing the paper later this month
and I can send advance copies to scholars if you write me off list.  The ideas incorporate

Sankhya into the modern research in neurology.  I title in Rasa-sankhya.

Best regards,

BM

[Jsr Prasad]

तिल्लाना इति कश्चिदपूर्वप्रक्रम इति तु अवगतवान् । बालमुरलिमहोदयस्येदं पुनरानन्दं कल्पयति । तत्रेदमवधार्यम् । एतन्नेदमव्यवस्थियस्वर-रागसङ्कलनम् । तिल्लना इयञ्च 'कदनकुतूहल'रागबद्धा तथा अन्ते सार्थकान्येव पदानि (वदनमे मुरिसॆने... 4:14) ग्रथितानि बालमुरलिना इति तु श्रवणमात्रेण ज्ञायते ।

आकरप्रेषणेन पुनश्श्रवणलाभः जात इति धन्यः ।

सूचना - सम्भाषणादेतस्मात् अत्रैव विरमे यतोहि thread प्रस्तावितुः उद्देश्यस्तु अन्य एव ।

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Jsr Prasad]

On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 1:59 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. Dr. Prasad probably remembered a genre of stotra literature in Telugu called 'gadya' (e.g. 'aksharaankagadya' by paalkuriki somanaathuDu) or 'vachanamulu' (e.g. simhagirinaraharivachanamulu by KrishNamaachaaryulu)

I agree with Prof. Bhat garu and Prof. Nagaraj garu. Thanks for correcting me.

Ongoing discussion is interesting!

Regards,

Prasad

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The literature suggests that "rasa" is an effect,

but I find the use of the concept is cosmological.

 

Where did you find the cosmological use of the concept of Rasa? Are you talking of रसो वै सः of Taittireeyopanishad by any chance? Dr. Bijoyji , please remember that aalankaarikas resisted the use of the word rasa in a spiritual sense. For them it is purely art-related, aesthetic and non-religious, non-spiritual. Those who reject Rasa status to S'aanta Rasa or Bhakti Rasa do it on this basis only. Those who accept Rasa status to S'aanta or Bhakti use the word Rasa in a different sense than those who reject Rasa status to those two.  You might want to go through the debates on these issues thoroughly before delving into any cosmological concept of Rasa. If your use of the word cosmological is in a different sense than I understood, you might want to articulate it in a way understandable to readers like me.

 

The statement "I think that "rasa" is built in any composition

that helps streamline thoughts for communication."

 

is too loose to be reflecting rigorous understanding of the aalankaarika the idea of Rasa.

 

Moreover, Rasa is considered to be in Anukarta or Anukaarya or Saamaajika all human individuals but in the composition. (Of course neurology of human individuals only can be studied but not of the composition. May be you mean the ability to generate Rasa is built in composition.

 

"The ideas incorporate

Sankhya into the modern research in neurology.  I title in Rasa-sankhya."

 

You probably mean Saankhya. Your title probably is Rasa-saankhya. This care is required because there is a huge debate already on Rasa-sankhyaa.

 

Neurology of emotions, neurology of emotional experiences of audiences of literature and literary performing arts is imaginable.

 

Bringing Saankhya into that discussion is challenging. I don't think you are unaware of the rigorous homework  in various fields involved it demands.