reference to danDakAraNya in Valmiki's rAmAyaNa

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear friends and scholars,

In my Ramayana expedition I am just starting the AraNyakANDa to prepare

for a session Sunday.  A question comes in mind and I thought some of you

may have a reference.  The question is why is daNDakAraNya populated with

the sages which it is a dense forest inhabited by fearsome animals and

cannibals.  In the earlier sections. VishvAmitra had also come down to the

south to do his yajna.  Please refer me to any commentary that might have

analyzed the question.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 5:42 PM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear friends and scholars,

In my Ramayana expedition I am just starting the AraNyakANDa to prepare

for a session Sunday.  A question comes in mind and I thought some of you

may have a reference.  The question is why is daNDakAraNya populated with

the sages which it is a dense forest inhabited by fearsome animals and

cannibals. 

Here is the answer from Puranic Encyclopedia:

3) The origin of Daṇḍakāranya (the forest of Daṇḍaka). 

Daṇḍa once raped Arā, the daughter of hermit Śukra, 

who had been doing penance in a forest in the middle 

of the country of Daṇḍa. Śukra the hermit got angry and 

destroyed the country of Daṇḍa by a shower of fire. 

From that day onwards that country was known as 

Daṇḍakāraṇya. (For further information see under 

Arā).

The reference to the King, Daṇḍa is given in Mahabharata. The Episode is said to be in Uttararamayana or Uttarakanda. He has  not given ay more reference. The Uttarakanda is available in internet archive.org in English Translation and could be checked.

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Bhat,

This is interesting.  I am more interested if there is any observation why

the sages would choose to live in the interior India.  It looks to me it might
not be pure fancy.  I have heard that Narnada valley was populated with yoga

schools from the old times.  In case some literature person has explored

anthropology and archaeology, he/she might have a clue.

Thank you for the post.

BM   

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Bhat,

This is interesting.  I am more interested if there is any observation why

the sages would choose to live in the interior India.  It looks to me it might
not be pure fancy.  I have heard that Narnada valley was populated with yoga

schools from the old times.  In case some literature person has explored

anthropology and archaeology, he/she might have a clue.

OK. The actual reference why Dandaka became Aranya, I have given. And sages normally live in Aranya-s like any Aranhya-s are described in literature.  For me your observation seems fanciful.

The exact reference I found in some other reference book on Puana-s, Uttarakanda 79-81. Anyhow, I am not familiar with anthropology and archaeology as it is not my domain.

You can read the story in Uttarakanda for exact information what happened to the kingdom of Dandaka and not anthropological and archaelogical information.

[V Subrahmanian]

On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 7:42 PM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Bhat,

This is interesting.  I am more interested if there is any observation why

the sages would choose to live in the interior India. 

The obvious reason for resorting to the forest is: One desirous of tapas has to be away from worldly vyavahara and being in the city/village is not conducive for tapas.  Also, in the forest, the tapasvin's food requirement is  taken care of as he can feed on roots, fruits, etc. naturally available there. One can give an extended reason to the wild-animals question: in the Yoga shāstra there is a sutra: ahimsāpratiṣṭhāyām tatsannidhau vairatyāgaḥ. So, a true tapasvin established in the mahāvrata called ahimsā, will not be harmed by animals for even they give up their enmity/fierce nature towards him in his abode.   In any case, the living in a forest is tough and that is why it is voluntarily sought by tapasvins and as a punishment to Kings like Rama and the Pandavas when they were banished to the forest where the usual luxuries/comforts are not available.  

There are many references to connect sages to the araṇya (forest):

1. सेयं षडध्यायी अरण्येऽनूच्यमानत्वादारण्यकम्

[This is taken from the introduction to the Brihadāraṇyakopaniṣad commentary of Shankaracharya:  This upanishad with six chapters is so named (second part of the name) because it is taught-repeated in the forest.]

2. ये च अमी अरण्ये वानप्रस्थाः परिव्राजकाश्चारण्यनित्याः, अनेवंविदामपि गृहस्थानां यज्ञादिसाधनोपपत्तेः, भिक्षुवानप्रस्थयोश्च अरण्यसम्बन्धेन ग्रहणात्, [from the Br.up.bhashya]

3. ये च इमे अरण्ये वानप्रस्थाः परिव्राजकाश्च

4.श्रीमद्भगवद्गीताभाष्यम् । अष्टादशोऽध्यायः । श्लोक ५२ - भाष्यम्विविक्तसेवी अरण्यनदीपुलिनगिरिगुहादीन् विविक्तान् देशान् सेवितुं शीलम् अस्य इति विविक्तसेवी,

[Here you get a clue to the 'Yoga schools on the banks of the Narmada]

ते य एवमेतद्विदुर्ये चामी अरण्ये श्रद्धां सत्यमुपासते Br.up.6.2.15

There is a passage cited in the bhashyam: ‘अरण्यमियादिति पदं ततो न पुनरेयादित्युपनिषत्’[One aught to go to the forest and not return from there.  That is, from that vānaprastha āśrama one should not return to householder's life.] 

regards

subrahmanian.v

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr Subrahmanian,

Valmiki does use the word वानप्रस्थाः.

What i don't get is why the  अरण्य  should be removed far away (hundreds of miles) from the habitations.

This दण्डक has eminent sages and they are complaining of violence by the राक्षस

Possibly other अरण्य existed without राक्षस.

There are no women in दण्डक, hence Sita becomes a target for  विराध right when they enter.

It may unravel as I progress.

BM

PS.

[Here you get a clue to the 'Yoga schools on the banks of the Narmada]

I read somewhere that Shankara met GovindapAda somewhere near Narmada.

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Probably there were राक्षसाः and sages only in addition to wild animals and no other settlement of civilised human beings even as villages. The hermitage too spare and not throughout दण्डक and only a bird जटायु  had to fight रावण and sages or their wives couldn't fight against the demons as they are man eaters.  Hope you will find the solution to your doubts later. 

[sunil bhattacharjya]

weNamaste,

When the Mahayogai Yajnavalkya departed from his wife, in order to live the life of a Sanyashi,  he told his wife that he only needed to have a place where phalakandodaka  (fruits, roots and water) were available. Even the grhastha rishis, who had their ashramas in the forests, also needed these as  bare minimum, though they were having cows also in their ashramas.

As regards Dandakaranya, it was no small patch of forest. After leaving Chitrakut Lord Ram went to Nasik in Dandakaranya and finally Mother Sita was kidnapped from near Bhadravati in Dandakaranya (distance from Nasik to Bhadravati is about 900 KM). Such a big forest did not necessarily have a homogeneous flora, fauna and human habitation.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 2:07 AM, Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Dr Subrahmanian,

Valmiki does use the word वानप्रस्थाः.

What i don't get is why the  अरण्य  should be removed far away (hundreds of miles) from the habitations.

I think Sunil Bhattacharya has replied for your doubt. It is not a patch of forest. The reverse is the case. The village settlements are made far away from the wild beasts and students approach the nearest hermitage to their village. But there is no need to return back to their villages once they enter the schools than after finishing their studies. So also the custom for ब्रह्मचारिन्-s inmates of the sages and वानप्रस्थ-s, and यति-s, not to return back to the village settlements once they enter the hermit life. This is attested by the different धर्मसूत्र-s. Here is the extract from गौतमधर्मसूत्र ---

१,३.२५ । ३.२६: वैखानसो वने मूलफलाशी तपःशीलः ।

१,३.२६ । ३.२७: श्रावणकेनाग्निमाधाय ।

{वर्_स्त्: श्रामणकेन}

१,३.२७ । ३.२८: अग्राम्यभोजी ।

१,३.२८ । ३.२९: देवपितृमनुष्यभूतर्षिपूजकः ।

१,३.२९ । ३.३०: सर्वातिथिः प्रतिषिद्धवर्जम् ।

१,३.३० । ३.३१: वैष्कमप्युपयुञ्जीत ।

{वर्_स्त्: बैष्कम्}

१,३.३१ । ३.३२: न फालकृष्टमधितिष्ठेत् ।

१,३.३२ । ३.३३: ग्रामं च न प्रविशेत् ।

This is the reason why hermits establish their hermitages away from the villages so that the villagers do no disturb their life and they need not go to the villages. This is according to other authors of Dharmasutra-s.

This दण्डक has eminent sages and they are complaining of violence by the राक्षस

Possibly other अरण्य existed without राक्षस.

There are no women in दण्डक, hence Sita becomes a target for  विराध right when they enter.

It may unravel as I progress.

BM

PS.
[Here you get a clue to the 'Yoga schools on the banks of the Narmada]

I read somewhere that Shankara met GovindapAda somewhere near Narmada.

OK. Please proceed with the clude you have got. 

I too do not get why अरण्य is located away from the villages. 

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Here is बौधायन-धर्मसूत्र ---

बौधायन-धर्मसूत्र 

confirming the same rules to वानप्रस्थ. You can see many such strange rules in the page.

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear friends,

I appreciate the help.  On this line:

Is there any thesis like "India in Valmiki's description"  like we have

Agarwal's thesis on Panini?

Thank you for any information.

BM 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Prof. Misra,

 

Is there any thesis like "India in Valmiki's description"  like we have
Agarwal's thesis on Panini?

 

The topics such as "India in Panini's time" , "India in Patanjali's time" are different from "India in Valmiki's description".

 

"India in Valmiki's description" has been a topic of a big controversy. People placed the places described in Ramayana at different parts of the Indic region. That is a Pandora's box.

 

In stead it may be worthwhile to discuss Puranic sources for the maahaatmya different parts of Dandakaranya. Narmadamaahaatmya  (Matsyapurana etc. Reva khnda etc. ) Godavareemaahaatmya etc. might be of help.

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

 

 

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Hnbhat B.R.]

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 12:54 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Prof. Misra,

 

Is there any thesis like "India in Valmiki's description"  like we have
Agarwal's thesis on Panini?

 

The topics such as "India in Panini's time" , "India in Patanjali's time" are different from "India in Valmiki's description".

 

"India in Valmiki's description" has been a topic of a big controversy. People placed the places described in Ramayana at different parts of the Indic region. That is a Pandora's box.

 

Here is a page listing (but not analyzing and comparing with modern India) place names in Ramayana, and character names:

http://hinduism.about.com/library/weekly/extra/bl-ramayana-characters.htm

I think I have seen a similar book indexing the names trees and plants in Ramayana.

Here is an video showing the kingdom of Rama as it claims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWz6Y2JaQBU

This is also a similar listing in Viki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Places_in_the_Ramayana

Geographically identifying the places is a different thing, than writing on the Life of India, at the time of Valmiki in India, is different one. The India at the time of Valmiki is such topic, both geographically identifying and assuming the life of people in India from their descriptions is another topic of research. Archeaologists should combine their hands with the Sanskrit Scholars, to write such a book, if it is meant by Bijoy Mishra and a knower of the literary style of Valmiki, like Bijoy Mishra himself and one more Indian Historian to interpret the archaeological evidences.

If not already existing, one could endeavor on such an attempt which may take a long time for such a project.

[shankara]

Namaste,

Giving below links to two books on this subject.

Ramayana Mein Pratibimbit Bhartiya Samaj Avam Arthvyavastha., 5990010889966. Geeta Agarwal. 0. hindi. History. 360 pgs.

epic india or india as described in the mahabharata and the ramayana., 99999990278286. vaidya, shankar laxman. 1933. english. history. 459 pgs.

 

regards
shankara

---

From: Bijoy Misra <misra...@gmail.com>
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, 14 March 2015 7:41 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} reference to danDakAraNya in Valmiki's rAmAyaNa

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Prof. Nagaraj,

I had seen a Tamil thesis on the botany of Ramayana in an interview process

two decades ago.  It was from the University of Madars.  A similar study on the

geography, sociology and anthropology could be worthwhile.  It could be pure

objective research reconstructed from the text with any associated documentary

support.  Possibly several students could be engaged to research various

aspects to have better focus.  We have to create a collaboration on behalf of

our new youth in order to support knowledge and techniques of multi-disciplinary

research.  Please think.  We will find funding.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[Bijoy Misra]

Friend scholars,

I should have made a point clear.  Reconstruction of imagery from the text

is independent of mapping it in the current landscape.  Reconstruction should

be considered a literary research work to check if we understand the words

as applied in the text.  We understand a word or a sentence through its
accepted meaning during the current times.  Reconstruction would depend

upon interpretation and fresh research.  So I said "India in Valmiki's

Description" to create an imagery as Valmiki wrote.  This image can then 
evolve in to the current landscape in another piece of work developed through
local legends, stories and later literary works.  I understand that the current
chief of Indian Historical Society in interested in digging old works. So possibly
new work can be supported.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[R. N. iyengar]

Dr.Bijoy,

Your forays into the epic are interesting, since critical analysis of the available Valmiki Ramayana (VR) more than the MB, is a touchy subject. Since the topic is of interest to me I like to add a few points that are general.

1) The accuracy of the results we get depends on the way the question is posed. For example: "India in the TIME of Valmiki" is different from "Geography of India as depicted in VR".

 The first is strongly dependent on the historicity of Valmiki and Rama and the epoch or era in which they lived on Indian soil. This question has no unique answer. Those who arrive at a date and then discuss the political or cultural issues in VR  do not subscribe to textual criticism. Literalism leads to a wall with contradictions and at this stage literalists take help from texts other than VR. This confuses the issue further since the 'other texts' are more inhomogeneous and internally more inconsistent than VR. Such an exercise leans more on beliefs. The net effect even at the data level is "One can collect large amount of diffuse unreliable data which is random. At best some of this may be amenable for statistical analysis, if one looks for quantitative results. At a qualitative level, (even geography) conclusions are entirely dependent on the initial assumptions. For example: Are Lanka and Simhala same?  

2)About textual analysis of VR, I find the works of scholars of the older Pune school: Bhandarkar, Sankalia,Yardi,..... to be very important.

One may not agree with every point they make, but their approach to the text is scientific that is logical. Sankalia comes to the conclusion that the historical Rama of VR could not have crossed

Narmada.(Prehistory of India by HD Sankalia, Munshiram 1977) 

3) As a reference for ancient geography I find B.C.Law's book (Historical geography..Munshiram) to be useful. May be you have seen this. 

4) The  recent book on "Puranic geography"by KS Valdiya (Famous Geologist) is useful in many ways. He maps and compares VR information in terms of modern knowledge

5) I propose a topic for debate and discussion: "If VR were not to be there, north and south of India would not have remained emotionally and culturally united." 

Thanks for your attention.

best regards

RN Iyengar

On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 10:53 PM, rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Prof Iyengar,

My exposure to the field is weak.  Thank you for the references I will check.

The goal I have in mind is to explore areas where our young people abroad

can be motivated to contribute.  I was checking if anyone has created a

map comprising of distances and landmarks that Valmiki describes.

Further work on extension, morphing, satellite imaging can be done in

case we can create a physical geographic map according to Valmiki.

I see the doability of such a project and I am checking if anyone

has done it.  It would look like an early cartographic map which could

be imaginary as all old maps are.  The analysis and extension may

give information on climate change, river movement, forestry and

habitation.

So was the thought.  I appreciate your guidance.  

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[Bvk sastry]

Namaste

I agree with Dr. RNI on the point: "If VR were not to be there, north and south of India would not have remained emotionally and culturally united."

Looking at another perspective of ' why yogis in Southern India/ forests'
At such early period (- whatever historicity one wants to associate), can a look be taken from the planks of Buddhism and Jainism, who are also yoga- practitioners of early period? Both these traditions preferentially adapted Ramayana than Mahabharata. The pointer is to see the Dandaka-Aranya in south as a complement or counter part of Naimisharanya in north?
The saptasindhus no doubt are on north side of india; but seven sacred rivers remembered in india includes two prominent south indian rivers Godavari and Kaveri. As always river basins have always been the preferred places of yogis just as southern mountains and forests have been.

A thought shared in response to Dr. Mishras post.

Regards
Bvk Sastry


Sent from my iPhone

[K S Kannan]

Just a small literary reference that very broadly, but directly, handles the question  as to why ascetics resort to forests.

(There could, of course, be many others, some even more valid than the one here. The reference has the value at least of antiquity (4th century BC ?))

Says dramatist bhAsa in his celebrated play svapna-vAsavadatta 1.5:

nagara-paribhavAn vimoktum ete

vanam abhigamya manasvino vasanti.

"Men of resolution as they are, they choose to go dwell in the forest, in order to obviate the humiliations [normally countenanced] in the cities."

(Just a curio note : This verse was uttered by BVKSastry (whose response  precedes this) donning the role of kAn"cukIya (and  I was  yaugandharAyaNa - way back in 1974 when we enacted the immortal play of bhAsa in full. Sorry for the extraneous matter!)

Regards

Kannan

--
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Dr. K.S.Kannan

Professor, 

Centre for Ancient History and Culture,

Jain University

CMS Annex, 319, 17th Cross, 25th Main,

6th Phase, J P Nagar, Bangalore - 560 078

(Ex-Director, Karnataka Samskrit University)

[Nagaraj Paturi]

 I was checking if anyone has created a

map comprising of distances and landmarks that Valmiki describes.

 

                                                          -Prof. Bijoy Misra

Just a cursory browsing yielded so much info that it appears that a lot of study has been attempted in this direction:

http://www.ramayanaresearch.com/articles/mapping.html

http://ramayangeography.blogspot.in/

http://kiskikahani.openspaceindia.org/articles/geography-of-the-ramayana/

http://www.academia.edu/516826/LANKA_OF_THE_RAMAYANA_THE_PROBLEM_OF_LOCATION

https://vibhanshu.wordpress.com/2009/01/13/map-of-india-during-ramayana-and-mahabharata/

The Society of the  Ramayana  by  Ananda W P Guruge:-

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=WWlsWQ8foNgC&pg=PA51&lpg=PA51&dq=ramayana+geography&source=bl&ots=k-RqtPUVRL&sig=O28-v7n0mjodxn14fOUkGI2wcFs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VMIFVcbtNYy6uAT7t4CIDw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=ramayana%20geography&f=false

Geography of the Ramayana by R K Shukla :-

http://www.vedicbooks.net/geography-ramayana-p-11078.html

Sharing a few maps available.

 

 

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[sadasivamurty rani]

While I have been observing this thread on the reference to DANDAKARANYA in VALMIKI RAMAYANA,  the thoughts of some scholars have given me encouragement to share a few ideas from my sources. Particularly make an attempt here to present the gist  of a few pages in ENGLISH from a TELUGU book "RAMAYANA - MAHABHARATAMULU KALPITAMULA? (WERE THE RAMAYANA AND MAHABHARATA WERE MYTHICAL?) written by LATE RANI SRINIVASA SASTRI (my father) where he dealt in detail with the path of RAMA from AYODHYA to LANKA identifying with longitudes and latitudes of modern geographical terms. I hope this may be worthy to be presented here in this context. 

In the main body of the attachment the mangal fonts could not be accommodated. So I am giving the reference sloka to the LANKA from Siddhanta Siromani here:

लङ्का कुमध्ये यमकोटिरस्या: प्राक़् पश्चिमे रोमकपट्टणं च।

अधस्तथा सिद्धपुरं सुमेरु: सौम्येथ याम्ये बडाबानलश्च॥ 

                                                      - सिद्धान्तशिरोमणौ भुवनकोशाध्याय:

Scholars are request to see the rest of the article in the attachment of this mail. 

Warm Regards,

 

Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty

---

From: R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, 15 March 2015 8:33 AM

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} reference to danDakAraNya in Valmiki's rAmAyaNa

[Bijoy Misra]

Friends,

I am grateful to you all for many excellent resources.

Let me check these.  The question could come if the reconstruction
is done through the current names or through distance traveled
as described.  Historicity of the locations and change in physical
features through time are other concerns.  Possibly from a cartographic
map one can construct a physical geography map given the description

and then compare it with the current features to check river shifts, climate

variations, human habitation etc.  Let us see.

Thank you for supporting my novice probes.

Best regards,

BM

[Ashok Aklujkar]

Similar in content:

Uttara-raama-carita act 1, after verse 8: ete hi h.rdayamarmacchida.h sa.msaarabhaavaa yebhyo biibhatsamaanaa.h sa.mtyajya sarvaan kaamaan ara.nye vi"sraamyanti manii.si.na.h. 

Kale tr: "These are the worldly incidents piercing the vital parts of the heart, disgusted with which the wise leave all objects of desire and find rest in the forest."

a.a.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Just found this article:

 

http://www.indiadivine.org/ramayana-is-real-say-experts/

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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044