Atmanepada

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Is there any language in the world which classifies verb roots into two groups and affords separate suffixes.

What might be the reason behind such a classification of verb roots.

Or

Why did other languages not feel the need for such classification.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Sivasenani Nori]

This is called middle voice in English. A number of languages have it. For instance: French, Swedish, Icelandic. In French, it is called the voix moyenne. 

And apparently the are languages with more voices than active (subject of verb is agent), passive (subject of verb is the object of action, or patient, to use an antiquated term) and middle (subject of verb is both agent and patient). 

Regards 

N Siva Senani 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

My question is very specific.  Are there languages in the world where verbs or their roots are classified into two groups like Atmanepada and Parasmaipada and whether they can be recognised with the help of the suffixes they take on in usage?  

Kindly help me in answering the above question.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Roland Steiner]

> Are there languages in the world where verbs or their roots are
> classified into two groups like Atmanepada and
> Parasmaipada and whether they can be recognised with the help of the
> suffixes they take on in usage?

Ancient Greek, for instance. Greek Verbs have three voices (active,
middle, and passive).

λού-ω (loú-ō) "I wash" (active ≈ paraismapada)
λού-ο-μαι (loú-o-mai) "I wash myself" (middle ≈ ātmanepada)

Best,
RS

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

My question is to know whether there existed or exists a system

in any of the world languages where a verb is differently inflected when the fruit of the action {object) is the subject of the verb.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[vasantkumar bhatt]

स्वरितञितः कर्त्रभिप्राये क्रियाफ़ले । इत्यस्य सूत्रस्य किमेकमप्युदाहरणं प्राप्यते निखिले'पि संस्कृतवाङ्मये  ? आदिकविना वाल्मीकिना महाकविना कालिदासेन वा किं परिपालितो'यं नियमः  ?।

मदीया जिज्ञासा तु केवलं संस्कृतम् अधिकृत्यैव, विश्वसमस्तस्य भाषासु नास्त्यस्ति वैतादृशी व्यवस्था, तत्तु पश्चादेव ज्ञातव्यम् ।।

तमसो मा ज्योतिर्गमय ।।

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwan,

So it appears that no other language in the has atmanepada and parasmaipad classification in order that they take different suffixes.

The following is my submission:

So none of the natural languages have differentiated the self (atmane) differently as an object as is in the case of Sanskrit.  Why?  just because Sanskrit is not a natural language.  It is a language that has evolved with a purpose different than those through which natural languages evolved.  Natural languages evolved as a means of communication within society whilst Sanskrit evolved as a means of knowledge and its transfer from generation.  It evolved as an art form.

The design of the Atmanepada roots and their suffixes show that the self itself can become the subject of investigation which is amply recorded in the Vedanta texts. 

Marx said that man started differentiating  himself from animals when he started to produce his own means of subsistance.  This stage in man's evolution is recognized as homo sapiens sapiens.  However the atmanepada roots and the suffixes indicate a further step in the evolution of man.  A step that recoginizes man himself to be the object of an act.  (आत्मोधार) This stage of man therefore needs to be called homo sapiens sapiens sapiens.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Roland Steiner]

> whether there existed or exists a system  in any of the world languages where a verb is differently inflected
> when the fruit of the action {object) is the subject of the verb.

Yes, ancient Greek. Once again (in Roman transcription only)

Present (active voice ≈ parasmaipada): loúō "I wash (something)", loúeis "you wash (something)", loúei "he/she/it washes (something), etc.
Present (middle voice ≈ ātmanepada): loúomai "I wash myself", loúē/loúei "you wash yourself", loúetai "he/she/it washes itself", etc.

Imperfect (active voice ≈ parasmaipada): élouon "I washed (something)", etc.
Imperfect (middle voice ≈ ātmanepada): elouómēn "I washed myself", etc.

Future (active voice ≈ parasmaipada): loúsō "I'll wash (something)", etc.
Future (middle voice ≈ ātmanepada): loúsomai "I'll wash myself", etc.

Etc., etc.

Best,
RS

[K S Kannan]

Looks like Mr Karve is in(con)vincible!

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Roland,

I am saying that in Sanskrit Atmanepadi verb roots have different pratyayas than Parasmaipada verb roots.   Did Greek have them.  Today too we use verbs which are reflexive.  Such verbs are found in all languages.  

Thus we can say that the theory of Indo European Languages is a self serving bogey.  Sanskrit is a language the purpose of which is different from that of other languages.  It was  not naturally born out of social need.  

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Kannanji,

Possibly so.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Roland Steiner]

Dear Mr Karve,

> I am saying that in Sanskrit Atmanepadi verb roots have different pratyayas
> than Parasmaipada verb roots. Did Greek have them.

Yes, it has.


With regards,

Roland Steiner

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Shri Achyut Karve gives a novel explanation and should be acceped as a possible way of looking at this point. 

Congrats to him even if some may doubt it.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Achyutji,

I have not gone that far, but वाक्यपदीय could possibly give an analytic explanation.

The realization of the merger of the subject and object could be the key.

If we think that the language is a cognitive concept, then we have to dig into the

indigenous languages for the trace of "self", who dies, who is born etc.

Though difficult, it would be a fascinating to research.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sanskrit is a natural language. Nothing artistically or as some orientalist believed and still believe, liturgically created in it. 

No romanticization of the 'greatness' of that language is required. 

It's beauty or divinity or refinement is in the Dharma inherent in it, that got coded in it through the use of it by the s'ishTas that were epitomes of Dharma. At least, that is what Hari avers in VP.

Hari deals with the issue of aatmanepada synchronically / descriptively in padakaaNDa. Does not answer the evolutionist diachronic questions of Sri Achyut-ji. 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Sanskrit is as natural a language as any other language.  What is the the difference?  The difference lies in the way a classical dancer would dance as against the dance of an uninitiated dancer.  It is for this reason that great importance is give to Shiksha before learning Sanskrit.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Bijoy Misra]

"natural" has built in cognitive implications.

We have natural knowledge of distinguishing between feeling the pain and observing the pain.

In the first case there is only internal understanding, no need to communicate.

The second case is observational and narrative.

We don't know neurologically how the brain would parse the two cases, possibly it would.

There could be traces in indigenous languages, I assume.

BM

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[K S Kannan]

The semantic distinction between Parasmai and Atmane is long extinct.

And the distinction has had its parallels in other languages.

The less the number of languages one is exposed to,

the more the generalisations one tends to draw, or at least more easily,

and perhaps the more vehemently one argues.

A friend of mine argued for the greatness of Sanskrit simply on the ground that Sanskrit has 7 Cases,

whereas English has less. So also Sanskrit has duals, he argued,

which others - like Kannada, Hindi, or Tamil - do not have.

I told him that there are languages that have dual forms too.

And further that Finnish has 15, and Hungarian has 18 Cases.

There may be languages with more.

So?

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[Rishi Goswami]

Dear Vidvans.

I am in consensus with Karve Mahoday.

Because, the example that Mr Roland has given, I would like to ask is this limited to reflexI've verbs (akarmaka Dhatus) or to all the verbs? Wash seems like स्ना शौचे and Spanish has similar usages..

To denote that the क्रियाफल (termination/result of action) will go to the Subject, we use a special word call "se" that denotes the अकर्मकत्व of the Action.
Take for example.
स्ना शौचे is called banyar (बाञार्) in Spanish.
Devadatta se banya.
Means देवदत्तः स्नाति (स्वयमेव)।।
The "se" just denotes the fruit of bathing will go to Devadatta.

Which was pr0bably translated by Mr Roland as "He washes himself".
"Himself = Se".

Another example will make it clear.

मृ प्राणत्यागे is another example.
If someone dies, there can't be any object hence the result or fruit of dying is gone to the Subject.
Here, despite of कर्तृगामिनि क्रियाफले there is no कर्मसंभावना and the क्रियाफल is differently defined here, I will check the Tika and respond soon.

Example
Devadatta Se Muere. देवदत्तः म्रियते।
Yo Me Muero. अहं म्रिये।
"se" and "me" are reflexive pronouns that denote the verb is going to the subject.

अहम् स्वत एव म्रिये।
देवदत्तः स्वत एव म्रियते। इति तात्पर्यम्।

_________

But the catch is Aatmanepad does not mean what your purpose is Mr Roland.

The क्रियाफल is in a different context here. I will give you an example.
देवदत्तः पचति means Devdatta is cooking, but not for himself. He is cooking probably as a servant and the food will be eaten by यज्ञदत्त Yajnadatta.
क्रियाफल doesnt mean धात्वर्थ here but in a more practical sense.

देवदत्तः पचते (Devadatta is cooking). Again here Aatmanepad is used to denote that Devadatta is cooking for himself, not for Yajnadatta or someone else. Devadatta will eat the food himself.

Another example is of a Yajna. In a Yajna, the Yajamana is the one who pays the Brahmana for the Yajna. The fruit of the Yajna doesn't go to the Hota (Pandit) but the Yajamana (the fee giver). Keeping that in mind,

देवदत्तः यजति means Devadatta sacrificies, not for himself but for Yajamana.
देवदत्तः यजते means Devadatta sacrificies but only for himself, for his Nityakarma, not for any Yajamana. So Yajnaphala is going to Devadatta only.

In धात्वर्थ case, क्रियाफल in first example,be it परस्मै or आत्मने, will never go to Devadatta, but only to the food being cooked. Because पाकफल is विक्लित्ति which will only be in the Rice.
In the second example too, क्रियाफल will go to the याग, never to Devadatta, nor the Yajamana.

The Spanish equivalents to the 2 things, maybe
1. Devadatta Cocina.
(If at all I did "se" here, it becomes = Devadatta Se Cocina = Devadatta is Cookked. Literally Se denotes Devadatta being the Locus of Paak/Viklitti/Kriyaphala).

2. Devadatta Sacrifica.
(If at all we add 'se' = Devadatta Se Sacrifica.
Devadatta is Sacrificied.
Literally will imply that He sacrificied himself, for क्रियाफल is now not going to हविः but to Devadatta.)

So, I'd say this isn't Aatmanepad, what Mr Roland said.

_____

So, now on understanding these examples, what is left to understand if any other Roots, other than Reflixive, are been used in this sense which I stated. Maybe Mr Roland may have ggotten mislead by the terminology being same = Kriyaphala.

Namaskara..

[Madhav Deshpande]

I found an 1884 dissertation from Leipzig on "The Ātmanepada in the Rigveda."  It analyzes the origins of Ātmanepada and the various shades of meaning it expresses in the Rigveda.  May be useful reading.  Best wishes,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

Some points to ponder over: (Answers may not be easy, convenient and palpable; yet the 'vaakya- artha- vichaara' must go on ! I am not clear on these issues )

 

a) If Lepzig researched ' Atmanepada in the Rigveda';  then the design -practical usage of ' Verb declensions' with clarity on Parasmai-atmane- Ubhaya padi's  would get a historic anchor to whatever date  that may be ascribed to  Rigveda.   

 

   a-1)    If this be the case,  was Sanskrit the only language of that ' socio-historic context' which had such idiosyncrasies ?  Why was it necessary as a part of ' language design' ??

   a-2)    Nirukta is heavily dependent on the Vyakarana sampradaya;  and holds a strong view that ' dhatu' is the basis for ' other words'. What seems to be take up of Yaska in   

             classifying the 'Dhatu's' as atmane and Parasmai - a tag which must take in to account the ' svarita issues' and ' -ngit' issues.  Is there any surviving traces of this

              tradition?  Indigenous 'Vedanga' insider -Research findings? Practical benefits ?

 

b)  Connecting- Comparing to Spanish grammar processing :  What is the model by which Samskruth -Spanish language grammar interaction seems to have taken place ?

      History routes and contexts please.

 

c) If 'Atmane and Parasmai' pada have an osmosis in the Vedic and Classical ( Chandas and Bhashaa) frames, What makes Vaidika Dhatu -Swara Prakriyaa a class apart from the bhashaa declension models? 

 

Help appreciated.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[K S Kannan]

Some material

https://archive.org/details/SpanishVerbs-reflexive

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[K S Kannan]

Points to ponder over

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reflexive_verb

[Bijoy Misra]

Very interesting that Indo-European language head has no Indo part!

I would think that the concepts of Atmanepadi would be a bit different in neurological "natural expression" sense.

Reflexive may not be an appropriate translation.  "I have pain", "I feel pain" and "I am pained" are three different constructs.

I am away for several days.

BM

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[vasantkumar bhatt]

Respected Professor Deshpande Ji 

Namaste  ! 

Thank you very much,  this I was expecting from you ! Really I am benefited and obliged. 

Pranama. 

Vasantkumar M Bhatt 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

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[Rishi Goswami]

Dr Shastry, Bijoy ji, other Vidvansah cha.

Reflexive verbs really don't convey the meaning of Aatmanepada in Loka, but as far as Vedas are concerned, I was really shocked to see the use "himself" आत्मानम् in Rigveda. Thank you very much Vidvan Shri Madhavji for the pdf.

I'm learning Spanish for joy so was aware of the Concept only of Spanish. Spanish has Reflexive verbs mostly in only those cases where we use Akarmaka Dhatus in Samskrit, exceptions aside. But, Rigveda is using kri, अञ्जू व्यक्तिम्रक्षणकान्तिगतिषु and such Sakarmaka Dhatus in Reflexive Sense, it's really a new concept to me as such uses are not found in Loka...

I wasn't sure of the translation being 100% accurate so I actually referred to Sayana Bhashya on Rigveda 4.7.11 which I'll post here.

मन्त्र =
तृ॒षु यदन्ना॑ तृ॒षुणा॑ व॒वक्ष॑ तृ॒षुं दू॒तं कृ॑णुते य॒ह्वो अ॒ग्निः ।
वात॑स्य मे॒ळिं स॑चते नि॒जूर्व॑न्ना॒शुं न वा॑जयते हि॒न्वे अर्वा॑ ।।११।।

भाष्य = “यत् यः अग्निः “तृषु क्षिप्रमेव "अन्ना अन्नानि काष्ठादीनि “तृषुणा क्षिप्रेण रश्मिसमूहेन “ववक्ष वहति । दहतीत्यर्थः । “यह्वः महान् सः “अग्निः “तृषुम् आत्मानं “दूतं “कृणुते यजमानदूतं करोति।

लौकिकवाक्यार्थः (अहम् अलिखम्) =

यो अग्निः काष्ठादीनि रश्मिसमूहेन क्षिप्रं दहति, स महान् अग्निः आत्मानं यजमानदूतं कुरुते।

Here this आत्मानम् meaning in कुरुते was clearly missing and how did this concept of "aatmanam" arrive? Only solution is Aatmanepad perhaps. Even English translation is in Consensus.

"The mighty Agni makes himself the messanger of the worshipper."

Which basically means "Agni becomes the Yajamana-Doota."

______

And In Spanish would also say the same thing
"Agni se Hace el mesenger"

"Agni makes himself the messenger" is one way of
saying it when "se" is used as a Reflexive Pronoun, the same "se" is used for Passive Voice कर्मवाच्य and also for कर्मकर्तृ - I'm amaware of what it's called in English.

Tu voz se suena bien.
तव वाक् श्रूयते (se suena) सम्यक्(bien)।

________________

1 part of the Question is solved. Does Sanskrit use Aatmanepad in Reflexive Sense? To convey आत्मानम् भूषयति = अङ्क्ते। आत्मानं दूतं कुरुते (दूतो भवति) = कृणुते।
This आत्मानम् sense is Reflexive, yes.
Here, I've only read a few lines. I will read more and come soon, to find the answer to this question:

The question that remains is, does any other language use Aatmanepada or Parasmaipada as 2 different forms, other than Reflexive Forms? Without the meaining of "आत्मानम्"?

With the explanation of देवदत्तः पचते = देवदत्तः स्वभोजनार्थंं पचति and not देवदत्तः आत्मानं पचति।। If Aatmanepad was Reflexive here, the Verb would directly Reflect on the Karta as I stated above..
देवदत्तः पच्यते or देवदत्तः आत्मानं पचते would be the Artha..

So Aatmanepad can't be Reflective everywhere. But I'll be back soon after reading it thoroughly. If there's something I'm misunderstanding.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Rishi Ji,

     I have attached a short article by Laura Grestenberger on the relationship of the middle voice and the reflexive pronouns in the language of the Rigveda.  Sometimes the Ātmanepada verb and the reflexive pronoun occur together, and Grestenberger calls this double marking of reflexivity.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Roland Steiner]

> is this limited to reflexI've verbs (akarmaka Dhatus)

No. Greek loú- ("to wash"), for instance, is a transitive verb: loúei
"he/she washes somebody or someone". The corresponding middle form is
loúetai "he/she washes himself/herself, bathes".

> Which was pr0bably translated by Mr Roland as "He washes himself".
> "Himself = Se".

No. The middle form loúetai means "he/she washes himself/herself"
without the need for an additional separate reflexive pronoun (Spanish
"se", English "himself", Sanskrit ātmānam). The meaning "himself" is
inhering in the form loúetai.

> So, I'd say this isn't Aatmanepad, what Mr Roland said.

I have given just *one* example for illustration, but the middle voice
in Greek has not only one single function. If you are interested, you
should take lessons in Ancient Greek.

Bye,
R. Steiner

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Roland,he 

     This is very helpful.  If the middle forms in Greek convey the reflexive meaning without needing a reflexive pronoun, and if we see Ātmanepada forms in the R̥gveda often accompanied by a reflexive pronoun, leading Laura Grestenberger to call this double marking of reflexivity, could this be an indication of the gradually weakening of the reflexive significance of the Ātmanepada forms in Vedic and Sanskrit?  Obviously, Pāṇini recognizes reflexivity as a meaning for some Ātmanepada usages [स्वरितञित: कर्त्रभिप्राये क्रियाफले], but on several rules of Pāṇini, e.g. परिव्यवेभ्य: क्रिय:, the commentary Kāśikāvr̥tti points out that the root क्री listed by Pāṇini as डुक्रीञ् normally will have Ātmanepada endings if it is reflexive [कर्त्रभिप्राये क्रियाफले सिद्धमात्मनेपदम्].  Then what is the point of prescribing Ātmanepada for the same root in combinations with prefixes परि, वि, and अव?  The commentary says: अकर्त्रभिप्रायार्थोऽयमारम्भ:.  As far as the commentary goes, in such cases, we have Ātmanepada in non-reflexive environments.  On Pāṇini's rule आङो दोऽनास्यविहरणे again, the commentary says अकर्त्रभिप्रायार्थोऽयमारम्भ:.  The same comment is found on Pāṇini's rules निसमुपविभ्यो ह्व:, स्पर्धायामाङ:, गन्धनावक्षेपण..., अधे: प्रसहने, वे: शब्दकर्मण:, सम्माननोत्सञ्जन..., अकर्मकाच्च, आम्प्रत्ययवत्..., प्रोपाभ्यां युजेरयज्ञपात्रेषु, णेरणौ यत्कर्म..., भीस्म्योर्हेतुभये, गृधिवञ्च्यो: प्रलम्भने, लिय: सम्मानन..., and मिथ्योपपदात्...  In so many cases, the Ātmanepada forms are prescribed by Pāṇini in non-reflexive significance.  In several cases, where the generic rules would have provided Ātmanepada and reflexive meaning, Pāṇini specifically prescribes Parasmaipada, e.g. अनुपराभ्यां कृञ:.  This shows that reflexivity is not invariably connected with Ātmanepada forms in Pāṇini, but it is still a clearly recognizable significance in a large number of cases.  The collective usage shows a great deal of variability already in Pāṇini's rules, and the post-Pāṇinian usage seems to lose this prominent sense of reflexivity of Ātmanepada forms.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Irene Galstian]

Some examples from Russian:

myt' - to wash

myt'sya - to wash oneself; adding 'sya' often turns the actor into the recipient of its own action

However:

varit' - to cook

varit'sya - to cook oneself, but that's not quite reflexive, it's more passive usage, e.g. when you say 'obed varitsya', which would literally mean 'the dinner is cooking itself', you mean that the dinner is being cooked by someone, even if that someone is you. When you want to say 'Michael is cooking dinner', you'd say 'Michael varit obed'.  

Irene

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[Vineet Chaitanya]

Even Hindi does have a device to convey this through auxiliary verb, which can be analysed as a counter part of a verbal-suffix.

  राम ने भोजन पका लिया: This means Rama cooked for himself.

 राम ने भोजन पका दिया:    This means Rama cooked for others.

Please note Hindi is not using words equivalent to "himself" or "others".

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[K S Kannan]

Some Upanis"adic  usages involving स्वयम् and आत्मने  :

तैत्तिरीय २.७.१ तदात्मानं स्वयम् अकुरुत।

मैत्री ६.३४ [सुखं] स्वयं तदन्तःकरणेन गृह्यते ।

मुण्डक ३.२.१० श्रोत्रियाः  स्वयं जुह्वते एकर्षिम्

प्रश्न ३.५ चक्षुश्श्श्रोत्रे मुखनासिकाभ्यम् प्राणः स्वयम् प्रातिष्ठते ।

but not आत्मने  :

कठ१.२३ स्वयं च जीव शरदो यावद् इच्छसि ।

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[Rishi Goswami]

Dhanyavada Shri-Madhavaji for the pdf.

I have read the pdf and currently reading the Kashika and Padamanjari of the Sutra, Aasanna-Kriyaphala and Viprakristha-Kriyaphala is a new concept to me I didn't encounter in Balamanorama.

Will also go through the previous pdf and revert soon.

Namaskara and Dhanyavadah.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Looking at such lovable  jijnaasaa of Sri Rishi Goswami-ji , I felt like sharing the Upagraha Samuddes'a of Vakyapadiyam which is a very small piece of the book. 

३,१२: उपग्रहसमुद्दॆश

य आत्मनॆपदाद् भॆदः क्व चिद् अर्थस्य गम्यतॆ /

अन्यतश् चापि लादॆशान् मन्यन्तॆ तम् उपग्रहम् // वाक्य_३,१२।१ //

क्व चित् साधनम् ऎवासौ क्व चित् तस्य विशॆषणम् /

साधनं तत्र कर्मादि व्यक्तवाचॊ विशॆषणम् // वाक्य_३,१२।२ //

क्रिया विषयभॆदॆन जीविकादिषु भिद्यतॆ /

लादॆशैः स क्रियाभॆदॊ वाक्यॆष्व् अपि नियम्यतॆ // वाक्य_३,१२।३ //

धात्वर्थस् तद्विशॆषश् चाप्य् उक्तः क्व चिद् उपग्रहः /

धात्वर्थॊ गन्धनादिः स्याद् व्यतिहारॊ विशॆषणम् // वाक्य_३,१२।४ //

क्रियाप्रवृत्ताव् आख्याता कैश् चित् स्वार्थपरार्थता /

असति वा सति वापि विवक्षितनिबन्धना // वाक्य_३,१२।५ //

कॆसां चित् कर्त्रभिप्रायॆ णिचा सह विकल्पतॆ /

आत्मनॆपदम् अन्यॆसां तदर्था प्रकृतिर् यथा // वाक्य_३,१२।६ //

क्रीणीष्व वपतॆ धत्तॆ चिनॊति चिनुतॆ ऽपि च /

आप्तप्रयॊगा दृश्यन्तॆ यॆषु ण्यर्थॊ ऽभिधीयतॆ // वाक्य_३,१२।७ //

संविधानं पचादिनां क्व चिद् अर्थः प्रतीयतॆ /

तन्निमित्ता यथान्यापि क्रियाधिश्रयणादिका // वाक्य_३,१२।८ //

कर्त्रभिप्रायता सूत्रॆ क्रियाभॆदॊपलक्षणम् /

तथाभूता क्रिया या हि तत्कर्ता फलभाग् यतः // वाक्य_३,१२।९ //

यथॊपलक्ष्यतॆ कालस् तारकादर्शनादिभिः /

तथा फलविशॆषॆण क्रियाभॆदॊ निदर्श्यतॆ // वाक्य_३,१२।१० //

क्रियाविशॆषवचनॆ सामर्थ्यम् उपरुध्यतॆ /

कॆसां चिद् अन्यॆ तु कृताः स्वरितॆतॊ ञितस् तथा // वाक्य_३,१२।११ //

अनुबन्धश् च सिद्धॆ ऽर्थॆ स्मृत्यर्थम् अनुषज्यतॆ /

तुल्यार्थॆष्व् अपि चावश्यं न सर्वॆष्व् ऎकधर्मता // वाक्य_३,१२।१२ //

दृशीक्ष्यॊः सदृशॆ ऽप्य् अर्थॆ नाभॆदः प्रतिपूर्वयॊः /

ण्यर्थॊपादायिनस् तस्मान् न तुल्यार्थाः पचादिभिः // वाक्य_३,१२।१३ //

उम्भ्यर्थॆ वर्तमानस्य करॊतॆर् भिन्नधर्मणः /

ण्यर्थॊपादायिता तस्मान् नियताः शब्दशक्तयः // वाक्य_३,१२।१४ //

तथा ह्य् अनुप्रयॊगस्य करॊतॆर् आत्मनॆपदॆ /

पूर्ववद्ग्रहणं प्राप्तॆ स्वरितं समुपस्थितम् // वाक्य_३,१२।१५ //

ऎकत्वॆ ऽपि क्रियाख्यातॆ साधनाश्रयसंख्यया /

भिद्यतॆ न तु लिङ्गाख्यॊ भॆदस् तत्र तदाश्रितः // वाक्य_३,१२।१६ //

तस्माद् अवस्थितॆ ऽप्य् अर्थॆ कस्य चित् प्रतिबध्यतॆ /

शब्दस्य शक्तिः स त्व् ऎष शास्त्रॆ ऽन्वाख्यायतॆ विधिः // वाक्य_३,१२।१७ //

यस्यार्थस्य प्रसिद्ध्यर्थम् आरभ्यन्तॆ पचादयः /

तत् प्रधानं फलं तॆषां न लाभादि प्रयॊजनम् // वाक्य_३,१२।१८ //

यत्रॊभौ स्वामिदासौ तु प्रारभॆतॆ सह क्रियाम् /

युगपद् धर्मभॆदॆन धातुस् तत्र न वर्ततॆ // वाक्य_३,१२।१९ //

यत्र प्रतिविधानार्थः पचिस् तत्रात्मनॆपदम् /

परस्मैपदम् अन्यत्र संस्काराद्यभिधायिनि // वाक्य_३,१२।२० //

संविधातुश् च सांनिध्याद् दासॆ धर्मॊ ऽनुसज्यतॆ /

प्लक्षशब्दस्य सांनिध्यान् न्यग्रॊधॆ प्लक्षता यथा // वाक्य_३,१२।२१ //

पुरॊडाशाभिधानं च धानादिषु यथा स्थितम् /

छत्त्रिणा चाभिसंबन्धाच् छत्त्रिशब्दाभिधॆयता // वाक्य_३,१२।२२ //

अर्थात् प्रतीतम् अन्यॊन्यं पारार्थ्यम् अविवक्षितम् /

इत्य् अयं शॆषविषयः कैश् चिद् अत्रानुवर्ण्यतॆ // वाक्य_३,१२।२३ //

अथ प्रतिविधाता यॊ हलैः कृषति पञ्चभिः /

भाष्यॆ नॊदाहृतं कस्मात् प्राप्तं तत्रात्मनॆपदम् // वाक्य_३,१२।२४ //

प्रतीतत्वात् तदर्थस्य शॆषत्वं यदि कल्प्यतॆ /

न स्यात् प्राप्तविभाषासौ स्वरितॆतां निवर्तिका // वाक्य_३,१२।२५ //

शुद्धॆ तु संविधानार्थॆ कैश् चिद् अत्रॆष्यतॆ कृषिः /

तद्धर्मा यजिर् इत्य् ऎवं न स्यात् तत्रात्मनॆपदम् // वाक्य_३,१२।२६ //

अत्र तूपपदॆनायम् अर्थभॆदः प्रतीयतॆ /

प्राप्तॆ विभाषा क्रियतॆ तस्मान् नात्रात्मनॆपदम् // वाक्य_३,१२।२७ //

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

If possible kindly send me the translation.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

To my knowledge , PadakaaNDa of VP has not been translated. 

If I get time, I myself would attempt to do. 

Meanwhile, I will search and will share if I find. 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Thanks for your response.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Rishi Goswami]

धन्यवाद: पातुरि-महोदय

अहम् अस्य यथाप्राप्त-संस्कृतटीकादिम् अन्वेष्य पुनः सम्पर्चिष्ये।

(अपि च, भवन्नामोच्चारणं न सम्यक् जाने इति यदि वर्तन्याम् दोषः चेत् क्षमताम्।)

[Roland Steiner]

> To my knowledge , PadakaaNDa of VP has not been translated.

There is a complete German translation of the Vākyapadīya by the late
Wilhelm Rau:

Bhartṛharis Vākyapadīya. Versuch einer vollständigen deutschen
Übersetzung nach der kritischen Edition der Mūla-Kārikās. Hrsg. von
Oskar von Hinüber. Stuttgart: Franz Steiner Verlag 2002 (Akademie der
Wissenschaften und der Literatur, Mainz. Abhandlungen der Geistes und
sozialwissenschaftlichen Klasse. Einzelveröffentlichung. 8).

https://archive.org/details/WilhelmRauBhartrharisVakyapadiyaVersuchEinerVollstandigenDeutschenUbersetzung

Reviewed by George Cardona in Indo-Iranian Journal 47.2 (2004), pp. 147-159.

In his review (p. 148), Prof. Cardona mentions two complete earlier
translations: K. A. Subramania Iyer’s English translation, published
in several volumes (1965, 1971, 1974, 1977) and the Gujarati
translation of Jaydev M. Shukla, published in 1984.

Best,
RS

[Roland Steiner]

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

Thank you very much for your most interesting remarks. Unfortunately,
I'm neither a comparative linguist nor a greek scholar (I learned
ancient Greek in high school almost 40 years ago), which is why I
cannot competently discuss your question ("could this be an indication

of the gradually weakening of the reflexive significance of the

Ātmanepada forms in Vedic and Sanskrit"). In order to avoid possible
misunderstandings, I should add, however, that also ancient Greek
makes use of reflexive pronouns, also in connection with middle verb
forms (cp. Laura Gerstenberger's "double marking of reflexivity").

Best wishes,

Roland

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks, Dr Steiner for this information. 

I have Raghavan Pillai's and K A Subramania Iyer's translations of the first two kandas. I didn't come across  K A Subramania Iyer's pada kanda translation. 

There is a Telugu translation too of all the three kandas published by Telugu Academy. 

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[Roland Steiner]

Thanks, Dr Steiner for this information.

You're welcome, Prof. Paturi.

> I didn't come across K A Subramania Iyer's pada kanda translation.

-- The Vākyapadīya of Bhartṛhari. Chapter III, pt. I. English
translation by K. A. Subramania Iyer. Poona 1971. (= Deccan College
Building Centenary and Silver Jubilee Series. 26).

-- Chapter III, pt. II. English translation with Exegetical Notes by
K. A. Subramania Iyer. Delhi - Varanasi - Patna 1974.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Yes, Dr Steiner. Just before your message below arrived here, I downloaded part 1 from Archive. org. 

It is English translation without the Sanskrit verses, upto the 7th, Saadhana Samuddes'a. 

Probably part 2 has the remaining, so Upagraha also. 

So Sri Achyut-ji needs part 2. 

Thanks and regards,

Nagaraj

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[Madhav Deshpande]

I have a pdf of part II of Iyer's translation of the Kāṇḍa III of Vākyapadīya.  The file is 209mb in size.  Cannot send it as an attachment.  I don't know where I downloaded it from.  Probably from SCRIBD.  Try if you can find it on SCRIBD.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

It will be very kind of you if you can translate the remaining sarga of the Vakpadiya.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Roland Steiner]

> So Sri Achyut-ji needs part 2.

I know. He will find it here (pp. 93 ff. [= pp. 112 of the PDF file]),
Prof. Paturi:

https://archive.org/details/TheVakyapadiyaOfBhartrhariChapterIIK.A.SubramaniaIyer

Best,
RS

[Hnbhat B.R.]

You can send larger files through hightail.com or wetransfer.com by with free membership.

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[Madhav Deshpande]

I have attached the pdf of the 12 pages containing Iyer's translation of the Upagraha section from Bhartr̥hari's Vākyapadīya, Kāṇḍa III.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Deshpandeji,

Thank you for the relevant excerpts from the Vakpadiya.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Rishi Goswami]

धन्यवादाः माधवजी _/\_

I am trying to find Tika online and someone gave me this entire book, on Email. I just saw this message. Thankyou so much for the effort.

I'm trying to find some Sanskrit Tika or even Sankshipt Hindi Tika is fine, I'm having certain difficulty in getting/finding the parallels to technical terms. But yes, it's very helpful.

No problem, i am thinking to buy the entire 5 volume series published through Chokhamba, I've enquired and thinking to buy it if unavailable online.

Namaskara.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Atmanepada roots get atmanepada suffixes.  It is clear that the roots are atmanepada.  In Sanskrit the roots are classified according to the intonation of the root and the root ending which generates the sense of atmanepada.  Thus the roots too are sensuous.  They are meaningful.  If the roots themselves are meaningful on account of their intonation does it not suggest that they were the calls of early man.  Intonation of vowels in speech changes meaning.  In fact Chinese languages even today use intonation as a tool to distinguish meaning in homonyms.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

"In fact Chinese languages even today use intonation as a tool to distinguish meaning in homonyms."

In one of my previous companies a Chinese colleague used to hold Mandarin classes during lunch hour for those interested in learning the language.  I used to attend those classes.  I was never able to master the four tones of Mandarin.  He would patiently explain to me the difference, but I was not able to reproduce these tonal differences.  Sometimes I even did not hear the difference at all.  One example he would often quote is the word ma.  Mǎ  (馬 horse, pronunciation: https://0.tqn.com/z/g/mandarin/library/audio/tones/3.mp3 ) is very different from mā  (媽 mother, pronunciation https://0.tqn.com/z/g/mandarin/library/audio/tones/1.mp3) according to him.  But I was not able to reproduce the difference between these two to his satisfaction.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

---

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 9, 2019 5:40 PM
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Atmanepada

 

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[Bijoy Misra]

A little while ago, we did go through the VakyapadIya assertion that all sounds have unique "meanings"

It would help to review that thread of last month..

BM

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[Achyut Karve]

Deat Vidwans,

The wheel of intonation needs to be reinvented.  We have lost it.  Merely saying उचैर् उदात्तः निचैर् अनुदात्तः does not solve the problem.

The Shikshas seem to have failed us.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Intonation being a very basic sound unit of sense does it not mean that Sanskrit has more in common with Chinese than with European Languages.

Radhakrishnaji would be in a position to throw more light on the aspect of role of intonation in Mandarin.

Patanjali too in his Pashpanhik has stressed the importance of intonation in language.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Suresh Kolichala]

On Wed, Oct 9, 2019 at 10:58 PM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Intonation being a very basic sound unit of sense does it not mean that Sanskrit has more in common with Chinese than with European Languages.

Chinese is a tonal language, whereas Vedic Sanskrit was a pitch-accent language, much similar to Ancient Greek. The other Indo-European languages such as Serbo-Croatian and extant Baltic languages such as Lithuanian and Latvian are also considered pitch-accent languages. In tonal languages, each syllable has an inherent pitch contour, whereas in pitch-accent languages the pitch is relative between adjacent syllables, and typically only one syllable has the high pitch. So, Sanskrit has more in common in other Indo-European languages than Chinese.

Thanks,

Suresh.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Suresh, for pointing out the relative character of syllable accent in Sanskrit.  Also there is a distinction between derivational accent of a word and the prosodic accent in the context of a sentence.  For example, bódhati and tudáti, have different accent pattern derivationally, but if they come after a non-verb [Pāṇini's rule 8.1.16: tiṅ atiṅaḥ] in a sentence, they both lose their udātta accent.  They keep their udātta if they occur in a relative clause etc.  Similarly, the forms naúmi, nuváḥ, numáḥ have the udātta accent on different syllables derivationally, however, they will lose their udātta completely if they occur after a non-verb, but will keep it if they occur in a relative clause etc.  The derivational accent of Sanskrit largely corresponds with Greek cognates.  I am not familiar with what happens to prosodic accent in Greek sentences.  This is very different from what happens in a language like Chinese.  With best wishes,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

While I stay out of these kind of somewhat random statements, I would like to ask Sri Karve the following questions:

1. Given the fact that accents are preserved only in Vedic texts, what Veda(s) have you learned or at least tried to research?

2. What corresponding sikShA and prAtishAkhyams have you studied and found wanting to describe Vedic accentual system?

Ramakrishnan

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[K S Kannan]

"The Shikshas seem to have failed us."

But Mr Karve's casualness is unfailing. See his

उचैर् उदात्तः निचैर् अनुदात्तः.

So is he with his English.

Unfortunate that he takes BVP with such casualness.

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Achyut Karve]

What is the use of calling a donkey a donkey. 

There is much to learn even from a living one.

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[K S Kannan]

Let us not, please, make a creed of flippancy and frivolity.

Revelry in lieu of regret is no mark of refinement.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Achyut-ji, 

When you are able to see that you are entering terrains where there is already great scholarship developed, please don't attempt to be a theorizer without learning the existing body of knowledge. You are trying to push the borders of the fields which you have no clue to. 

It does not hurt to express a learner's attitude, when we are at that stage. 

I have the responsibility to avert members from getting irritated from such posts.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Madhavji,

We have to distinguish between individual sounds and sounds in an ensemble.

In the second situation it would be more of compounding (sandhi).  VP analyzes this

from the basics in the 3.3 sections that were brought up before.  I love 3.3.32

from the cosmology point of view.

Regards,

Bijoy

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

This is an interesting thread.

 

In one perspective, I stand by the statement of 'Achyut Karve' on < "The Shikshas seem to have failed us."  

 

I also  stand by Prof. Paturi's statement in another perspective.  What we have is the scripted text, region specific voiced 'Veda' put in to practice in the rituals and worship models. This is highly respected, critical to preserve.  There is no second opinion on this.  

 

To ask a question, Karve does not have to be a profound scholar of all aspects of Samskruth linguistics. He has his expertise in other disciplines, which is not a point for debate here.

 

Many times, Truth hurts the pride. The real question is : IF there is even one single school teaching 'Saanga-Shadanga -Veda-adhyayana' in India with a track record of at least a fifty years, India or abroad, please help me to reach them out.'  Please dont give me a hear say and point to mathas and ashrams. I have made my decent survey on this issue for the past thirty years.  I would be much obliged and grateful to all of you for existence of 'Sanga-Shadanga Veda-adhyana school'.

 

To my limited exploration made so far, the tradition alluded to in  Vedanga 'Nirukta' for 'adheetya vedam na vijaanati yo-artham' went underground some centuries ago even in India; the upper limit is around fifteenth century.  The post colonial 'historic veda' dismantled the vedanga 'Voice training part of Shikshaa from Vedic studies'; The societies demand to have ' veda-professionals' ( and not Veda-artha-shaastra -pundits) as purohits, archakas, aagamikas, jyotishi's  reduced veda from a  'Moksha-Jnana sadhana state' to 'Bless you for prosperity, sin freedom, god-pleasing' model professions and training for livelihood. The contribution of ' Vedanta- by lanes and abuses' is also  a significant factor in this down fall.

 

Where in tradition, which acharya has endorsed that 'one gets a pre-qualification to Vedanta, without the pre-requisites of Veda, Samskara and  Yoga'?  The great compassion of Acharya Ramanuja and Madhva has been drawn to a wrong social track of ' Judeo Christian God- Theology model' of ' punishing-pardoning God through praise and service approach'. It is due to these, we have problem in understanding the ' VEDA TEXT and LANGUAGE', which starts with Shikshaa  before Vyakarana and Nirukta.

 

If there is a failure to understand SHIKSHAA, there is bound to be a serious failure to understand Vyakarana and Nirukta.  These warnings are clear in every text of tradition, to which blind eye is turned.

 

When Achyut Karve asks a question on 'Atmane pada' related to 'Accent (Swara), how will one take to Vyakarana, before addressing the 'Shikshaa' part on 'How to articulate the given Prakruti, Pratipadika, Dhatu, Pratyaya, Prakriyaa and Prayoga'?  Instead of addressing this key issue, why find fault on the 'language expression and typos' ?  Do we have answers for these questions in the traditional studies/  texts as of now? in theory or practice ?  VP is more on Vedanta part of 'Shabda-Brahma vivaarta'. There must be someplace where the pada- swara- part of dhatu -prakriyaa gets connected to ' Chitta -Vrutti- Vivakshaa'.  This is NOT what the question is pointing to. Given the 'Gana-patha, given the classification as atmane, parsmai... how is this to be decided in relation to the swaras', which come from Shikshaa ?  It is more on connection and continuity of Shikshaa and Vyakarana tradition.  If we have texts giving right directions for this, let us explore it. Otherwise, let us seek.  

 

I was just reminded of a smart quote , to end this response on a lighter mode. There are three sides to every story : Your story, My story, And the True story. In this case, what may resolve the atmane- parsami pada story is how 'Classical texts of Nirukta and Vyakarana have resolved this issue  through the 'Shikshaa'? which answers why 'swara' marker for Atmane- parsmai prakriyaa' beyond the ' action benefit ( kriyaa-phala gaamitva'? If swara technicality is for ' process of grammar, then what is the root-logic ? '.

 

It is neither Karve's story or what we think is already said in some research publication. It is what 'shaastra-kaara has said in the original, in their language and context'.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr BVK,

We are going towards further digression.  शिक्षा is not failing anyone.  It is there to help how to recite the Vedas.

But that is not where the causation of a word is.  To dismiss VP as vedānta etc is avoiding the science

of sound that he so profoundly analyzes.  As i said before a sound is cosmological, it exists before we

connect it to any meaning.  I would request all interested researchers in this group, both young and old, to look

to discover the resources that might have gone to prepare the VP logic.  If people have deep interest and strongly

analytic in their approach they must study VP in the original  (not the translation) just five stanzas per day to understand

the thrust in our regular speech. 

How a sound becomes meaningful is neurological in content.  No work is done yet.  It is a bit difficult, but we

must try.  People may contact me if you have strong interest and good training in analysis.  Arbitrary casual

statements are not useful.  We are now studying the causation of vowels (not Panianian, but स्वर, through voice)

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

 

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste Misra ji

 

 

There are several connected strands and suggestions in your guidance below.

 

1.   I agree on the following points:

 

1a) शिक्षा is not failing anyone.  It is there to help how to recite the Vedas..  ( This guidance is not being used is a sad part for Veda education teams; and veda-analysts team. Voice can come only from a living being; not from reading the scripted text.)

1b) VP's edifice is built on the fuller knowledge and practice of Six Vedangas and then leading to the pinnacle of Vedanta - Shabda Brahma. In the process, there are many fall out studies and guidance useful for several disciplines, including the Consciousness studies, Semantics, Brain-basis of Meaning et al. ( The present VP  debaters seem to have missed the base and basics of Shadanga Vedanga structure on which Vedanta of Sphota-Shabda -Brahma is provided in three Kandas.. This statement seems to hurt some; but one needs to stand by reality check. I don't claim i have total knowledge of VP).

1c)  The study of sound as a cosmological phenomenon needs to explore 'Panchamahabhoota - Aaksaha - Shabda Guna/Tanmaatra'  techniclaities. Modern science is yet to get a handle on these paradigm shifts.

 

1d) How speech becomes meaningful in ' Living Persons communication model is well studied. But the neurological content and context needs a separate handshake between Vyakarana and Life sciences . This dialogue is not yet at the critical level, as I see in the exchanges at other groups totally focused on this.

 

 

2. My submission on the area we need to work more is this. ( I will write an off line mail on this part in about three days to you: Neuro-Physical Basis of Consciousness, How deep Nirukta has pointed to the semantics... et al. There is a specific goal and public benefit for this study, to make traditional texts and perspectives relevant for  today's technologies.  Well that is not for public forum debate).:

 

While we do want to work together, if the small team gets frittered away  by sarcasm on frivolous issues  of typos and personal attack on credentials, it hurts.  who will be left to work ?  Let us recognize the quest, question and seek the answers as relevant to our context and deliver a public benefit.

 

I am always open and willing to be a member of such teams.

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[Rishi Goswami]

Namaskara Shree-Madhavji _/\_,

I have understood alot in Upagraha Samuddesha, as a found a Sankshipt Sanskrit Tika as well as a Gujarati Tika. Thankyou very much Nagraj Mahodaya for suggesting it.

Sureshji _/\_, Madhavji_/\_, Thank you for giving information about pitch-accent languages and tonal languages.

I had no idea Udattadi swaras may also exist in some other language other than Sanskrit. But, was the Ancient Vedic Sanskrit ever part of speech? Or only a means of ritualistic rote and sacrifice?
How could someone possibly speak the language with so many complications of where to add which Swara? Even if a man did speak it, it would mean he constantly Sang the language.

Also, did Ancient Greek also have this Vaidik Laukik classification? I haven't heard of any ritualistic book, or any Pramana Shastra for the Greeks. Iliad and Odyssey are the only 2 works I know of. If Udattadi Swaras existed in other languages, probably they too had some Sung Version of a scripture they used for worshiping their Gods. Possibly to my assumption, such a language couldn't be spoken on a daily basis.

Another question which was raised in this thread was some unique feature only Sanskrit has. I think it is the PanchaVargi of Sanskrit. There maybe no language having all 5 Vargas, all 5 types of pronounciations, along with Alpaprana and Mahaprana, and all 5 Anunasikas.

Latin languages lack any Mahaprana Uccharanas, except of the Aghosha Hakara (like in Junto), they also have no Tavarga (moordhanya). English Tavarga doesn't have the Mahapranas, and the Anunasika.

Also, possibly the usage of Ayogavahas (Preferably Visarga), but here I can be wrong.

Pranamami.

[Irene Galstian]

"Neuro-Physical Basis of Consciousness, How deep Nirukta has pointed to the semantics... et al. "

I'd also be interested in this. Would it be possible to send this work to me too?

Thank you for considering my request, whatever the outcome.

Irene

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Rishi Ji,

     I cannot answer your questions about Greek in any details, as I do not have primary expertise in Greek.  As for reciting/singing the scriptures etc., there are established traditions of reciting the Koran, and the Jewish, the Jain and the Buddhist scriptures. I have read that there are traditionally established ways of reciting the Biblical texts in their original languages and in Latin. Each language in the world has its own distinct sound system etc, and not having the sounds of Sanskrit is not their deficiency.  Sanskrit does not have the sounds of English or German or Chinese.  Each language is an internally complete system for its users.  What distinguishes Sanskrit from other languages is that a formal analysis of this language and the formation of a grammar was done already in ancient times.  But a language is not the same as a grammar.  Each language has built in systematicity shared by its speakers, and when that systematicity is analytically understood and formalized, we call it a grammar.  The existence of an explicitly formalized grammar like that of Pāṇini is not a feature of the language itself, but of the scholastic tradition that emerged in ancient India.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[K S Kannan]

I was kept wondering why Prof BVKSastry has not rushed to the defence of Karve-ji yet.

The two seem to form a clique as it were.

Let Karve-ji write any nonsense, BVK is there to write a disquisition

to discover merits in Karve-ji's statements.

Dear BVK, what ails Karve-ji is his essential attitude.

The typos are not a big thing; his stubborn stand that BVP stands to gain

by giving a voice to donkeys (by his own  (com)passionate confession, nay, conviction).

There is not a syllable that can be called irrelevant or irreverent in what Prof. Paturi said

of Karve-ji's non-intermittent impertinence.

It will do a lot of good to Karve-ji to read the comment of Prof. Paturi daily

as soon as he gets up from bed, and before he goes to sleep, dwell and contemplate on it.

(I was actually a bit angry with Paturi-ji for being silent for so too long.

Ought obduracy be brooked for this long? Prof. Paturi has anyway given a long rope patiently,

and shown Karve-ji his place, and as a constructive measure, furnished

a decent corrective to his attitude which is the crux of the issue).

The forum is indeed, as far as I know, for asking academic questions and academic answers.

To betray asinine nonchalancy on the one hand - not to catch even a glimpse of

the scholarship already developed in the field (as Prof. Paturi pointedly and pertinently drew attention to),

and yet display superciliousness on the other, are not very becoming of an academic scholar.

I am reminded of a quote. It will do well to ask ourselves now and then

which of the four groups we belong to :

There are four kinds of people -

He who knows not and knows not he knows not, he is a fool : shun him.

He who knows not and knows he knows not, he is simple : teach him.

He who knows and knows not he knows, he is asleep : wake him.

He who knows and knows he knows, he is wise : follow him.

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Dr. BVK,

You don't need to follow VP, but be a good experimenter.

I want to know the foundations that made VP possible.

The statements like he has some view are peripheral.

He is the only scientist of sound if we can coin such a phrase.

Raman tried in his late stage from the drums.  Human voice is

a marvel of nature.  Language is artificial. 

Sorry I am digressing.  I stop here.

BM

PS.  Anyone serious and has strong analytic background may contact

me off line.  Basic cosmology and neurology would be required.

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

First of all there is no proof that there were a large number of shaDA~Nga schools  ever. Patañjali himself has a comment on how in the “old days” people studied grammar but now they don’t etc., etc.

In any case, where is the question of the sikShAs failing us? Did they fail or people failed to study them? This whole thing is getting beyond silly. 

Again I ask, what Veda was studied along with it’s shikshA text and found wanting? I am not saying shikShas have the answers to all questions, but claiming that they have failed in the area of accent is just beyond all silliness possible.

Ramakrishnan 

[Bijoy Misra]

Lately we are getting opinions like these as posts. 

Would it not be good to study a few more years before expressing!

Sorry again!

BM

On Sat, Oct 12, 2019 at 2:23 AM Rishi Goswami <gris...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thankyou Madhavji, for the response.

I think that all languages have some uniqueness, which even Sanskrit should have. I think it's more than just a perfected gramatical system, which I'll need to configure studying various other language structures sometime in my life.

As far as right now, I know of only 1 European language - Spanish. Which has a uniqueness of Vulgarity with Sweetness. The language sounds very Grameena, when you hear a native speak, it sounds sweet and melodious but also not Elite. This was my prior experience, before I learnt that it was one of the Vulgar languages of Latin.

And another functionality is the irregularities in it. It is quite irregular but very expressive and flexible.

As far as sounds are concerned, lacking sounds doesn't mean the language is lacking something. Yes, true. I agree, but I also think it's a speciality of Sanskrit that it maybe the only language having all 5 types of Sounds, making it very easy to express all types of Rasas. Say, the usage of Moordhanya and Mahaprana Varnas while expreesing Fear, Utsah or Veerya. And usage of Dantavya, Anunasika and Alpaprana Varnas while expressing Lalitya (see this word for eg), Lavanya (even this), Shringara or Mriduta (all of them).

Even if we look at different Chhandas, they express different qualities. Vasantatilaka for eg, as much as I've read is uses in Vandanas, and it expresses Mahatmya, Royalty and Utkirshtatva. Malini for eg, expresses Karunya (that's only what it feels like to me).

I feel this is the speciality of Sanskrit. Each word is made of letters which can produce certain types of feelings. Like the sound BheeSHaNa seems so BheeSHaNa in nature, and Komala seems so Komala.
I think no other lang may have such type of word formation.
I may have a strong bias towards my language, of course I have love and attachment towards it, but this I strongly believe this maybe a unique feature of our language.

Perhaps my opinions might change, after getting more knowledge.

Pranamami _/\_

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

As far as right now, I know of only 1 European language - Spanish. Which has a uniqueness of Vulgarity with Sweetness. The language sounds very Grameena, when you hear a native speak, it sounds sweet and melodious but also not Elite. This was my prior experience, before I learnt that it was one of the Vulgar languages of Latin.

And another functionality is the irregularities in it. It is quite irregular but very expressive and flexible.

The words such as 'vulgar' were used when old fashioned value-loaded terms were being used in reference to languages, social groups etc. 

Today, it is not right to call any language 'vulgar'. 

Particularly when a paamara dialect of an older time grows into a language of its own and develops its own s'ishTa and praakrita versions, it no longer remains 'vulgar'.

Spanish is an independent language today. It has its own elite and non-elite dialects. 

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Sir,

Prof. Dr.George Cardona will be in a better position to comment on the Spanish Language,as it is his mother.tongue. He could be contacted or consulted in this regard.

One thing is rightly pointed out by Prof.Paturi. 

The use of the word vulgar is outdated and should not be used anymore in modern parlance.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Roland Steiner]

> The use of the word vulgar is outdated and should not be used anymore in
> modern parlance.

In linguistics, "vulgar" (> Latin vulgaris "common") has the special
meaning "vernacular" (Merriam-Webster: "1a: using a language or
dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary,
cultured, or foreign language; b: of, relating to, or being a
nonstandard language or dialect of a place, region, or country; c: of,
relating to, or being the normal spoken form of a language"). In these
contexts, "vulgar" does *not* mean "lacking in cultivation,
perception, or taste" or "morally crude, undeveloped, or
unregenerate". In a nutshell, "Vulgar Latin" is the spoken form of
non-Classical Latin from which originated the Romance group of
languages.

A commonly accepted text or reading is called "vulgate". For example,
the term "The Vulgate" designates the Latin version of the Bible (made
by the 4th century) authorized and used by the Roman Catholic Church.
Nothing negative resonates in it, quite the opposite ("commonly
accepted"), as one can imagine.

To give an Indian example: The print version (1911; with minor
alterations 1918 and 1937) of the so-called Yogavāsiṣṭha (based only
on very few manuscripts) has become the received text, which is why it
can also be called a sort of vulgate version.

Best,
RS

[Rishi Goswami]

Sorry for using that word. A better word can be used as refering to an experience of the language that seems melodious romantic and grameena.

Languages have their own flavour attached to it, which every(i think many) person who hears it will probably have the same thing to say (maybe not sometimes). Reason why people who first time listen to Telugu or Bengali find them sweet, or ones who listen to Urdu find it courteous.

Similarly, when I heard Spanish for the first time, I found it very sweet, romantic and grameena/dehati in nature. 

Probably many people had the same experience as mine, hence identify it as a "romance language."

Pranama _/\_

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>  In linguistics, "vulgar" (> Latin vulgaris "common") has the special 
meaning "vernacular" (Merriam-Webster:  "1a: using a language or 
dialect native to a region or country rather than a literary, 
cultured, or foreign language; b: of, relating to, or being a 
nonstandard language or dialect of a place, region, or country; c: of, 
relating to, or being the normal spoken form of a language").

Which Linguistics? 

Merriam Webster is not a Dictionary of Linguistic terms. 

https://www.academia.edu/23349059/A_Dictionary_of_Linguistics_and_Phonetics_David_Crystal 

is an example of a Dictionary of Linguistic terms. 

I didn't find the term 'vulgar' in that.  

> In a nutshell, "Vulgar Latin" is the spoken form of 

non-Classical Latin from which originated the Romance group of 
languages.

" Vulgar Latin" was the term once used in reference to  non-Classical Latin which was once used. 

Non-Classical Latin was a dialect of Latin. 

We are talking of the suitability of the term in reference to a contemporary language, not a dialect.  

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Roland Steiner]

You certainly don't expect me to find you a dictionary of linguistic
terms in which the term "vulgar" is defined. The starting point was
the following statement of Rishi Goswami: "that it [= Spanish] was one
of the Vulgar languages of Latin." What he clearly meant was that
Spanish evolved from several regional variants of Vulgar Latin in
Iberia. "Vulgar Latin" does not mean "rude" or "obscene" Latin, but
"nonclassical Latin", to put it simply. Merriam-Webster reflects this
usage of "vulgar". That's all.

Best,
RS

[K S Kannan]

Decades ago, I had to introduce a speaker named Swain (from Orissa),

and I referred to his name as a vulgar form of the Sanskrit svAmin.

While the speaker did not hear me properly, the organiser was all anger with me

as I used the word vulgar. I told him it stands for the apabhraMs'a form,

but could not convince him, as he hardly had the patience or ability to listen and understand.

But the etymological sense of vernacular is hardly grasped by people:

it refers to "the language of the [home-born] slave"!

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[Siddharth Wakankar]

In modern India,many English words are used and understood also wrongly,like this word vulgar and the other is romantic or romance.In view of that I made my statement.

I very well know the words Vulgate etc.because I am working in the field of Manuscripts since 1977,but,it seems that you are innocent of some typical uses of English words in modern India.

Despite that I appreciate your response.

I hope,you will understand my viewpoint,which has become a very typical experience in India, of which,you may not be aware.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

You need not find a dictionary of Linguistic terms for me. I myself am a teacher of Linguistics and I know my terms. I mentioned a dictionary of terms just as a suitable source to consult and bring home the point of technical terms since you mentioned the name of an academic discipline. 

As you are able to see from his response below you were responding to a highly learned senior scholar Prof. Wakankar who need not be taught words such as Vulgate, their etymology, origin etc.

Sri Rishi Goswami realized the anouchitya of using the term vulgar in reference to a contemporary language. That's all.

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[Siddharth Wakankar]

Dear Prof Paturi,

Your posts are excellent,to the point and eye.opening and supporting my view generally prevalent in India.

Hope,they will be taken in the right spirit and with humility by the scholars, becoming their status and that of other scholars too.

Handful of thanks.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Roland Steiner]

First, it's messages to the list, not to single individuals, right? No
one is accused of ignorance, but not everyone knows the spectrum of
meaning of "vulgar" or the meaning of "Vulgate". Second, I am still of
the opinion that it is not necessary to rebuke Rishi Goswami if one
understands his statement correctly. That's all I have to say.

Best,
RS