Fwd: Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics: Prof Madhav Deshpande, University of Michigan & Prof Ramanathan, IIT BHU

[Madhav Deshpande]

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From: Atharva Forum <athar...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:01 AM
Subject: Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics: Prof Madhav Deshpande, University of Michigan & Prof Ramanathan, IIT BHU

Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics                          Prof Madhav Deshpande, Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit & Linguistics, University of Michigan   In conversation with Prof V Ramanathan, IIT BHU Do join The Atharva Forum YouTube channel by clicking on the "Subscribe" button below.  Dhanyavādaḥ Other Uploads To Unsubscribe reply with a No. Copyright © 2020  [ SHIVA SANKALPA ]  All rights reserved.

[L Srinivas]

Nice talk. A bit short perhaps, given the way perspectives were being opened up for the listener!! I liked the simple language used by Prof Deshpande for explaining slightly complex scenarios.

Thanks for sharing,

Srini

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thank you, Srini.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

The talk was quite interesting, Prof Deshpande ji.

When I was listening to the talk, the following were some of the thoughts that came to my mind.

In one of the previous companies where I worked, I had a colleague from an African country (I now forget which country it is).  He told me that his country had several tribal languages many of which were mutually unintelligible.  Hence, Pidgin English was the informal language for communication.  Overall, Pidgin English has English words and the structure of English language, but the grammar is simplified.  The pronunciation of English words is also different in Pidgin English.  Pidgin English is not taught in schools.  Standard English and Standard French are the languages taught in schools and these are the languages for administration and formal communication.   Many tribes are adopting Pidgin English as their first language and abandoning their tribal languages.

In Latin America, the genetic make-up of the population is predominantly native American, yet they speak the language brought by the conquistadors from Europe. They have totally abandoned their ancestral languages.

Decades ago, I had a very short visit to Belgaum (now Belagavi).  I observed that most people there are trilingual speaking Kannada, Marathi and a variety of Hindi. The language of the marketplace seemed to be this variety of Hindi and not Kannada or Marathi.  It was interesting to see the same bus conductor ask "Kuṭṭhe" in Marathi (not "Kuḍe" as Mumbai conductors ask), or "Elli" in Kannada.  However, most times he would ask “kahāṃ” in Hindi.  It appeared that given sufficient time, this Belgaum Hindi could become the first language of Belgaum, just as Mumbai Hindi has become the first language of second and third generation Mumbaiites even from Kerala and Tamil Nadu.

Could some of the Prakrits have developed as Pidgin Indo-Aryan as spoken by originally non-Indo-Aryan speakers?  Could that be the reason why the pronunciation of cognate words in Sanskrit became so much different in Prakrits?  As a counter example, modern day Malayalam pronunciation is not very different from the pronunciation of words of Sangam Tamil even after the passage of two thousand years.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2020 6:02 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics: Prof Madhav Deshpande, University of Michigan & Prof Ramanathan, IIT BHU

 

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Thank you, Radhakrishna Ji.  My language experience is similar to yours.  Most Indians are at least multi-dialectal, if not also multi-lingual.  This is especially true of border regions.  Pune of my childhood was not as multi-lingual, but my wife comes from Sangli, a border town, so that her Marathi initially sounded as if it had a Kannada accent.  What you say in your last paragraph is close to what I have argued in my own publications.  In ancient times, the Indo-Aryan languages were spoken by large populations initially probably as second languages, and interactions of IA languages with non-IA languages become more and more evident as time moves ahead.  Languages like Marathi are indeed border languages.  I agree with Professor Franklin Southworth's theory that the original language of the region of Maharashtra was most likely Kannada, and gradually Maharashtri Prakrit made its way into this region.  Marathi, in this theory, initially developed as a pidgin which was in the course of time creolized and became the mother tongue of the population.  It still retains trace of its relation to Kannada in vocabulary and syntax.  The literary form of Marathi always remained in close touch with Sanskrit and the vocabulary of literary Marathi was continuously  re-Sanskritized from the times of Dnyaneshwar upto Savarkar.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Source: https://twitter.com/tshrinivas/status/1343229280386428928?s=20

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Megh Ji,

     I am glad to see that you took the time to listen to my interview on Atharva.  I saw your comment about Pāṇini's date and your citation of V.S. Agrawala's view.  Yes, I am aware of Agrawala's view, and also of differing views expressed by Kiparsky, Cardona, Thieme and other scholars on this topic. There is almost a range of two hundred years within the proposed dates based on different interpretations of what evidence there is.  At the end, I agree with Professor Cardona's summary statement on this issue: "The available evidence does not allow one to determine Pāṇini's date with absolute precision. Nevertheless, the evidence also precludes placing Pāṇini at a time later than the early fourth century B.C.: 500 B.C. is a reasonable date to accept."  [Cardona: Pāṇini, His Work and Traditions, Vol 1, Background and Introduction, 2nd edition, Revised and Enlarged, MLBD, 1917, p.].  In my talk, I added "500 B.C. plus/minus."  In one lecture, there was no more time to devote to this issue.  Again, I wish to thank you for taking the time to listen to the talk. With best wishes,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[L Srinivas]

Sri Megh's reference to Sri Agrawala's various points (twitter post) have been taken up in Cardona: Panini, A Survey of Research (1997), pp. 261-277. Sri Agrawala's reasoning around gold coins etc have also been taken up in a separate publication (See Cardona: Panini's Dates and the Evidence of Coinage)

A side issue however. Prof Deshpande's considered opinion of a date around 500 BC, while very reasonable, raises another question - what script is refered to by 'yavanani'? Could it actually be Greek, as mentioned by Prof Deshpande in the talk, at this early period? What does the ethnonym 'yavana' even mean at this early date?

Thanks,

Srini

[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Namaste Dr. Desphande,

I thank all those at Atharva who made access to your talk possible. 

Let me acknowledge here too, your response to one of some thoughts I took the liberty of placing in the comments section. 

Megh

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Srini,

     You raise a good question.  While we see Ashokan inscriptions in Greek script and language in the regions close to Pāṇini's hometown, were there Greeks in the area before Alexander's invasion?  From what I understand, there were Greek and Aramaic speakers in the employ of the Persian empire before Alexander's invasion.  I don't remember where I read this, but presumably there were Aramaic speakers as local officials in the eastern parts of the Persian empire.  In keeping records, they may have begun transcribing Indic person's names and names of localities in Aramaic script, and such early Aramaic transcriptions of Indic words may have given rise to modified versions of Aramaic script resulting in the early forms of Brahmi and Kharoshthi.  I cannot confirm this, but I did come across some publication that proposed this as a likely development.  Will see if I can locate it.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Megh Kalyanasundaram]

Namaste / Namaskaaram Dr. Srinivas, 

I appreciate some of the specificity in your note. 

Let me though, for now, just mention that more points than what has been covered in Dr. Deshapande's 8:43:10 AM UTC-5 note (in trail below) and your 8:02 PM note (also in trail below) were raised in the comments section, one of which has to do with a 2020 article of Dr. Deshpande. 

Again, I acknowledge some of the engagement though. 

Sincerely, 

Megh

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[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Madhavji and friends,

I did listen to the talk last night.  I must confess that I was bothered with the heavy amount of

speculations and arbitrary assumptions.  Let me hope that the Government of India and the

scholarly groups in languages would put sufficient resources to produce good research on these

fundamental aspects of Indian tradition.  I did expect to hear more on Panini's methods and

their evolution in time through the previous grammarians.  Questions like

(a) what's a syllable

(b) how does a syllable assume a sound

(c) what's the origin of a syllable

(d) how does a syllable carry meaning

(e) where does the meaning lie (in the object or the subject)

I think the answers to these had been analyzed by the time Panini took up the task of compilation.

Even though the claim is that he wishes to code the language, there is a larger thesis of knowledge symbolism in human syllables.

It is assumed as a tool of communication or philosophical, but it appears to be scientific to me. 

It is this naturalness of Panini's work that I wanted to hear.  Language is not a word play, it is human expression.

Hopefully there will be substantial more work in the coming years.

Best regards.

BVP has always been a blessing to me in its material content and resourcefulness.

With gratitude I wish you all a Happy New Year.

Bijoy Misra

Boston, US 

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Bijoy Ji,

     It took me twelve years to learn Pāṇini and a lifetime devoted to exploring his work.  Cannot express everything about Pāṇini in one lecture.  Hopefully, as you say, there will be more occasions, where other scholars will bring out further aspects of Pāṇini that you mention.  With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[L Srinivas]

Thank you, Sri Megh. I wasn't aware of this 2020 article by Prof Deshpande.

Srini

[L Srinivas]

Yes, thanks for these pointers.

Srini

[Bijoy Misra]

Yes, it is intense.  We did a study group in 1995.

A language scholar Thomas Burke who learned Panini with Ramanath Sharma's father became the

nucleus.  He had additional expertise in Latin and Greek. 

Another Kannada speaking professor from the local Northeastern University was the third member.

Prof Balachandra's father was a Sanskrit scholar and a priest. Bala dealt with and taught optimization principles.

I came from a nationalist poet's family in Odisha and was a physicist.  I was the youngest in the trio.

We would do two to four sutras in a weekly three hour sitting.

It did take us ten years to complete.  We used Basu and Ramanatha Sharma.  I loved Panini as a scientist.

The study pushed me to spend more time in India studies.

We had done SiddhantaKaumudi before and I didn't like.  it was too mechanical. 

By the way, like many aging scholars Thomas is not keeping well.  He is 86 and single.

Covid has made it difficult for us to support him.  Bala is past 80 and his own health issues.

A lovely man, Thomas left his home in Oregon for Germany to do linguistics.  He went to India as a Sanskrit

student in 1963 and eventually taught in Banaras Sanskrit College until 1973.  He returned to Havard and worked

as a staff member.  He occasionally taught classes but served as a resource to scores of students who passed

by the Department of Sanskrit.

I take this opportunity to share one of many stories from Cambridge, USA

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

 

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[R. N. iyengar]

Dear Prof. Deshpande,

 Listening to your Atharva Forum talk was an hour well spent. I found several special points to ponder about. I like to share only two of them and seek your views.

 I heard you say Pāṇini’s grammar is meant for someone who knows Sanskrit already. (I am not quoting you, but something nearer to this view point…). Aṣṭādhyāyi is in Sanskrit, but of a kind (meta-Sanskrit ?) specially created for that purpose. Sūtra style might have been available, but the notations   अच्, अण्, हल्  etc seem to be unprecedented. Am I correct ? [This notation reminds me of the symbolism that double subscript means summation in Mechanics]. Do we find origin or inspiration for such symbolisms and  'pratyaya' addition to get a word in the Praatis'aakhyaas? 

You mentioned that Aṣṭādhyāyi  in its original oral tradition had (svara) accents. Is there any evidence for this?  I have heard people argue about Vedic Svaras (that are really pitch variations) getting continued in day to day language. If svaras were to be so important as to make meanings topsy-turvy as in इन्द्रशत्रुर्वर्धस्व स्वाहा  etc why Saamaveda recitation, for the same Rk-mantra has entirely different Svaras? Is there any serious discussion by traditional or modern scholars on this point?  

With best regards

RN Iyengar

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. On < Swara’s for Ashtadhyayi patha> :  Scholars and even traditional schools have divided opinion. Logic on both sides demands a review. As we are not so clear of ‘ Panini’s inheritance /legacy of ‘Samjnaa’ – and ‘ prakriyaa- paribhashaa ( = notation and computation) , it is difficult to answer your specific question :<  > . But the  circumstantial evidence from the text and surviving tradition on ‘Veda -pratishaakhya, shikhss, nirukta, asta-vikruti patha (especially krama-patha) shows that Panini must have inherited most of these processes . Panini’s specific work is a highlight of several centuries old tradition; and documents ( both classical and chandas).that go a few millennia before him !   

 

Traditional schools  one segment  says : As Vedanga,  vyakarana does have swaras on sutras.   [ My take: This could be true, for Shikshaa ( and Pratishaakhya) do carry swaras; Shikhshaa forms the basis of Vyakarana ,Chandas and Nirukta. Therefore, swars must have been a part of  Vyakarana and Gana-patha’s also. Another point to note is Dhatu pathas carry not only  ‘ the samjnaa’ like –‘ it, kit, pit’; but they also carry  ‘anudaata- it, svaritet’ like notations. These do influence the  sutra -prakriyaa’ and output.    Specific details are a  part of  Pratishaakhya works and figure in Pada- krama patha nirnaya.  These areas are generally not studied by Vedic or vyakarana scholars; much less the linguists of  west.  The current Vedic forte holders are happy to recite the sacred text; but if asked to explain the vedanga related or Upaveda related details, I am afraid the scholarship-practitioner-space  seems to be  void ! ( or at least sparse).  Only lament: kalo hi duratikramah.

 

Traditional schools  another  segment  says :  Vyakarana is good as it is. The swara -patha is ghost set up and excuse. The swara part needed for vedas need to come from Pratishaakhyas and related Shikshaa, and validated from Prayoga paddhati. [ My take : This view is based on select statements from grammarians in a specific context, pulled out; The integrated study of Vedangas and study of Vyakarana and Nirukta  as Vedanga  and  Samskrutham as Vak-Yoga tradition as endorsed in Gita and Vedas is out of academic circulation and appreciation for the importance it holds. The  combined lock of  ’ Colonial History bed partnership for  Vedas +   Biblical lock of Theology  for philosophy and religion model study +  Social language model imposition on Spiritual languages of Sacred texts using the lens of anthropology- psychology]    has vitiated  the understanding of tradition ].  

2.  So, what is the net outcome :  A)  Compromise -  I am OK, you are OK, All are OK.  Vedas can come in suit, dhoti and jeans as needed.  

                                                       B)   Confusion : All the intellectual discussion makes no sense, if it does not move the engine of economy, deliver cultural pride and a drum to beat. 

                                                              We continue to say louder what we believe and what we feel we need. The Divided team of Swadesi versus Videshi- Paradesi 

                                                     C)  Convenience:  We take relevant sections of text and tradition as suits the needs of context.

                                                          That is ingenuity of selective headlines by audience applause  and resource availability for  projects.

3. What may we do together for what goal in such a scenario? – A submission:  We have heard enough talk on  ‘importance, Non-translatable, cultural value, national pride, science treasure of past unearthed and locked in crumbling manuscripts, ……’ et al. Can we think on an action point: Do we want to leave this mess as it is with our contribution added to the next generation or  figure out  ‘What was in Panini-Patanjali-Yaska’ sampradaya ( upper limit 200 BCE) , which  Acharya’s (  approx.: 600 BCE to 1400 C.E) considered valuable and Sayana documented as ‘Veda -Bhahsya’ ? Can a revisit to understand what ‘Sayana Bhashya’ means /meant as of  Vijayanagar time for Bharatheeya sampradayas be an inhouse effort ?  This  is asking to look at ‘Vedas from Vedanga -perspective’ before talking of’ Vedas from Vedanta-perspective’.

 

      If we have not clearly understood what was told to india in 14^th century, and why ‘Vedangas are important and  only clue to explore Vedas, the tradition that existed  before colonial rule, how are we going to be sure on what vedangas meant for Vedic studies in 600 BCE or earlier ?  We have all the academic freedom to pride ourself as more resourceful and intelligent over the past generations.

 

Please excuse me for this  little roughness, for I do get  much rougher audience in my classes  and engagements  demanding to address and explain ‘What is Samskrutham as ‘ Yoga-samskrutham, as Vak-Yoga’ beyond ‘Non-translatable Sanskrit’.  These audience are not religion -driven!  The audience are high profile accomplished science experts and people with high achievements in other worldly ventures. Their driving -  seeking question is simple: Why Samskrutham for Bharateeyas beyond a pride ?   Given that Panini is ingenious in  visioning language codes and communications across layers of  consciousness and delivered   a stable grammar of ‘ language’ which has survived for three millennia at least, Can this  Panini be the  inspiration for India  to deliver a   Bharateeya equivalent of  Tim Berners Lee (  famous inventor of World Wide Web) ?  or John McCarthy (2011: Father of A.I )? Or Ben Skora (Father of  Robotics) ?  to deliver a ‘ Panini – Machine’ ?

 

I am still looking for clues,  home team-people and pathways  who are willing to be partners on this journey to articulate the right question, figure out the right tools and path for a specific goal covered by one  idea  : ‘  How Vyakarana  is useful  for  Purushaartha siddhi’.

 

Till then, opinions could freely  galore. Every input is valuable as a perspective and thinking from scholars.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

Source: https://twitter.com/tshrinivas/status/1343229280386428928?s=20

 

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 6:57 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

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From: Atharva Forum <athar...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 12:01 AM
Subject: Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics: Prof Madhav Deshpande, University of Michigan & Prof Ramanathan, IIT BHU

 

Pāṇini - The Father of Linguistics                          Prof Madhav Deshpande, Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit & Linguistics, University of Michigan   In conversation with Prof V Ramanathan, IIT BHU

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Professor Iyengar,

     Thank you so much for your appreciation of my Atharva talk.  Here are my responses to your questions.

     Pāṇini's Aṣṭādhyāyī is in technical Sanskrit, and yet one cannot follow this technical Sanskrit without knowing the basic Sanskrit.  So, I do not believe that the Aṣṭādhyāyī was originally designed to be read/understood by someone who does not already know Sanskrit.  The technical language used by Pāṇini is not entirely limited to Pāṇini.  The few rules of Āpiśali, Vyādi and Gālava that have survived and the Kāśakr̥tsna Dhātupātha that has come down to us indicate that many grammarians were already using this type of technical language.  The rule of Vyādi and Gālava that has been quoted, i.e. इकां यण्भिर्व्यवधानं व्याडिगालवयो:, uses the shortforms iK and yaṆ based on the Śivasūtras.  There is a similar rule of Āpiśali quoted by commentators.  The occasional separation of pratyayas is seen in the Padapāṭha of Śākalya, and the Padapāṭha also splits compounds.  Yāska's Nirukta also uses the notions of stems and affixes extensively.  So it is clear that the use of technical language was quite widespread, and did not begin with Pāṇini.

    For the discussion of Svaras in Pāṇini's Aṣṭādhyāyi and what happened to them during the transmission, let me attach my article on this subject that deals with this question exhaustively.  With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Bijoy Misra]

Madhavji,

Thank you for sharing the article.  I admire the effort in compiling a large amount of information.

I infer from vākyapaḍiyam about the vast mīmāṁsā literature that developed to negotiate sounds

as instructions.  I didn't find much analysis in that regard, but your goal was the printed script.

In many scripts in the world, the vowels and accents are added while reading.  I have not

personally tried the efficacy of the process, but native speakers remain comfortable with it.

Literature may exist on the physics of expression in such a situation.  The word or sound

possibly assumes allotropic variation given the context in which the vowel is used.  The

information could remain coded.  It is also true with English language where the expressed

sound has little similarity with the printed text.

I also have an observation on the nasal sounds.  I would think that nasal accent is a part

of the basic human speech process.  Rural speech, older languages, and all existing hill

languages carry the nasal accent.  This could bring the question as to what the real sound

of a word is.  I was taught by English language teacher in Grade V to erase my nasal

accent which I had developed through my ancestral upbringing in Puri.  I observed

the difference pretty late in life.  People in pure urban setting may never know what a

word ought to sound or what it was during the time of Panini.

We admire Panini for examining the numances in speech and probing the root

from the context.  The process could be evolutionary. 

Best regards.

Happy New Year.

Bijoy Misra

pro

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[Kushagra]

I also listened to Professor Deshpande’s entire talk and found it very informative. Thank you for taking the time!

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