Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} VYĀKARAṆARATNA: LEARN SANSKRIT IN THE TRADITIONAL WAY

[Narendra Dutt Tiwari]

Dear Rohan Kulkarni Ji

Thanks for the invitation. I would like to join the course and want to know the schedule of classes. Can I forward this mail to others for information?  What will be the medium for teaching? 

with regards

Narendra Dutt Tiwari

On Thu, Jul 22, 2021 at 6:43 PM Rohan Kulkarni <kulkarn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all,

We feel glad to announce a new traditional course on Sanskrit. Mahamahopadhyaya Vasudeoshastri Abhyankar Sanskrit Pathshala (established in 1885) and Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute (established in 1917), have joined hands to conduct an online course on Vyakarana Shastra and Literature in the traditional manner. The 12-year course consisting of six levels, लघुसिद्धान्तरत्न, कौमुदीरत्न, मनोरमारत्न, शेखररत्न, महाभाष्यरत्न and व्याकरणरत्न, will be conducted completely free of cost.  

  

*APPEAL FOR DONATION*

 

Even if the course does not charge any fees to the students, sufficient funds are still necessary to meet the expenditure required for giving substantial honorarium to the teachers, scholarship to eligible students and for providing online facilities etc. On this backdrop, we solicit active financial support of our well-wishers in ensuring the sustainable continuation of this much-needed learning initiative, which is nothing short of a Knowledge Sacrifice (ज्ञानयज्ञ).        

 

Account Details                     

Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute   

SBI, Deccan Gymkhana Branch,        

A/c no 11100354557                          
IFS Code SBIN0001110
MICR Code 411002003

We also request kind donors to mail their information such as Name, Address, PAN No. and Mobile No. on acco...@boriindia.org for the purpose of 80 G (income tax benefit) receipt. 

Contact details:

 

Mr. Sudheer Vaishampayan (Hon' Secretary): 09595704947

Dr. Rohan Kulkarni: 09403984653         

For details please see the attached file.

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[Mārcis Gasūns]

On Friday, 23 July 2021 at 19:37:23 UTC+3 wrote:

Thanks for your interest in the course. Currently, 55 students are learning.

For 12 years?

 

18 in daily batch which commenced on 3rd June and remaining in the two separate weekly batches which will be thrice a week.

Thrice a week for 12 years?

 

The weekly batches will commence on or after 15th August. If Marathi is suitable, you can join the weekly batch.

All of them are Maharashtrians. Thus, we have opted Marathi as the medium of instruction in the first level. 

Marathi as the medium of instruction in the first level, oh, that means closed to the rest of the world.

 

Both institutes are private and there are no fees for the course. Thus, we require funds to give remuneration to teachers for commencing more batches in Hindi or English. 

From level 2 medium of instruction will be Sanskrit. 

That is year 2?

 

You can learn Laghusiddhantkaumudi elsewhere, can give the exam in May or June 2022. After qualifying the exam, you can enter the level 2.

Or, wait for some time to begin the level 1 of the course in Hindi or English.

Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.

Makes sense, but still.

Well done indeed.

M. 

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

An admirable program with one major drawback. It is regrettable that the organizers are of the opinion that "Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.". The Simple Standard Sanskrit register (http://www.sanskrit.nic.in/sss.php ) is indeed easily comprehended and widely used for instruction in many beginning shAstra courses.

On Friday, July 23, 2021 at 10:07:23 PM UTC+5:30 kulkarn...@gmail.com wrote:

Namaste,

Thanks for your interest in the course. Currently, 55 students are learning. 18 in daily batch which commenced on 3rd June and remaining in the two separate weekly batches which will be thrice a week. The weekly batches will commence on or after 15th August. If Marathi is suitable, you can join the weekly batch.

All of them are Maharashtrians. Thus, we have opted Marathi as the medium of instruction in the first level. 

Both institutes are private and there are no fees for the course. Thus, we require funds to give remuneration to teachers for commencing more batches in Hindi or English. 

From level 2 medium of instruction will be Sanskrit. 

You can learn Laghusiddhantkaumudi elsewhere, can give the exam in May or June 2022. After qualifying the exam, you can enter the level 2.

Or, wait for some time to begin the level 1 of the course in Hindi or English.

Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.

Feel free to communicate with me for any other details. My contact no. is provided in the brochure.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAG5W_GxJwbkzfB7Qz63%3D-Jq9R1arzPiZYLV7EoL0B7GBU3a5bA%40mail.gmail.com.

[Rohan Kulkarni]

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021, 06:53 विश्वासो वासुकेयः, <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

An admirable program with one major drawback. It is regrettable that the organizers are of the opinion that "Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.". The Simple Standard Sanskrit register (http://www.sanskrit.nic.in/sss.php ) is indeed easily comprehended and widely used for instruction in many beginning shAstra courses.

Convenience of students is the most important fact. They must grasp the basic concepts clearly. We are focusing on clarity of concepts in Level 1. Also, standard of Sanskrit should maintained. We have to keep balance between the two.  

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/d85f8985-af53-4135-a5e0-ebfa7dd5f632n%40googlegroups.com.

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 9:28 AM Rohan Kulkarni <kulkarn...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 24 Jul 2021, 06:53 विश्वासो वासुकेयः, <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

An admirable program with one major drawback. It is regrettable that the organizers are of the opinion that "Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.". The Simple Standard Sanskrit register (http://www.sanskrit.nic.in/sss.php ) is indeed easily comprehended and widely used for instruction in many beginning shAstra courses.

Convenience of students is the most important fact. They must grasp the basic concepts clearly. We are focusing on clarity of concepts in Level 1. 

Indeed! It is not like people using SSS for teaching shAstra-s are compromising on this fundamental requirement. I don't think that this is compromised if one uses SSS register instead of marAThi or kannaDa or English. It might be a good idea to experiment before making up your mind.

 

Also, standard of Sanskrit should maintained. We have to keep balance between the two.  

I disagree that standard of sanskrit is maintained by choosing to use marAThi (ie abandoning sanskrit all together) instead of SSS in the first level. It is natural to speak languages at multiple levels - one does not loosen the standard of English (or lose the ability to use it well) by choosing to use a lower simpler register while speaking to children.

 

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Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Narendra Dutt Tiwari]

Dear Kulkarni 

Thank you for your prompt response. I do not know Marathi. If the medium of instruction is either Sanskrit, Hindi or English it would be better for me. I also want to introduce Sanskrit Grammar to my nieces. Their medium of learning could be Hindi or English. They are just beginners.

With regards

On Fri, Jul 23, 2021 at 10:07 PM Rohan Kulkarni <kulkarn...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

Thanks for your interest in the course. Currently, 55 students are learning. 18 in daily batch which commenced on 3rd June and remaining in the two separate weekly batches which will be thrice a week. The weekly batches will commence on or after 15th August. If Marathi is suitable, you can join the weekly batch.

All of them are Maharashtrians. Thus, we have opted Marathi as the medium of instruction in the first level. 

Both institutes are private and there are no fees for the course. Thus, we require funds to give remuneration to teachers for commencing more batches in Hindi or English. 

From level 2 medium of instruction will be Sanskrit. 

You can learn Laghusiddhantkaumudi elsewhere, can give the exam in May or June 2022. After qualifying the exam, you can enter the level 2.

Or, wait for some time to begin the level 1 of the course in Hindi or English.

Sanskrit is not the medium of instruction in level 1 because of difficulty in comprehending the subject in Sanskrit which is itself difficult to understand.

Feel free to communicate with me for any other details. My contact no. is provided in the brochure.

On Fri, 23 Jul 2021, 13:39 Narendra Dutt Tiwari, <narendr...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Sivasenani Nori]

While teaching Grammar (or any Sastra), explaining how sutras need to be interpreted is quite involved. While it is indeed possible to do so in simple Sanskrit, except with exceptional students, a lot of what is said is not absorbed in the first pass even when a more familiar language is used. For instance when we teach Sivasutras, even in English, Telugu, Hindi etc., and then ask the students as an exercise to expand certain pratyaharas, we realize how much is lost between what was said and what was understood. This loss is more when the explanation is in Sanskrit, because they have two difficulties - of the subject matter itself and the language of instruction. Similar is the case even at advanced levels, say samaasa prakaraNam. Sometimes one wonders if the students understand even the simple sanskrit used in the prakriya of samaasanirUpaNa.

There is indeed a case for making learning Sanskrit easy by using language easily understood by students, especially when teaching Sastra (कष्टं शास्त्रम्, it is said lest one forget).

As an aside, it is interesting to note the difference in the present announcement - most announcements highlight the link for attending classes. It seems to be different in this case. 

Regards

N Siva Senani 

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Sat, Jul 24, 2021 at 10:20 PM Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

While teaching Grammar (or any Sastra), explaining how sutras need to be interpreted is quite involved. While it is indeed possible to do so in simple Sanskrit, except with exceptional students, a lot of what is said is not absorbed in the first pass even when a more familiar language is used. For instance when we teach Sivasutras, even in English, Telugu, Hindi etc., and then ask the students as an exercise to expand certain pratyaharas, we realize how much is lost between what was said and what was understood. This loss is more when the explanation is in Sanskrit, because they have two difficulties - of the subject matter itself and the language of instruction. Similar is the case even at advanced levels, say samaasa prakaraNam. Sometimes one wonders if the students understand even the simple sanskrit used in the prakriya of samaasanirUpaNa.

This is contrary to the experience of saroja bhATe - https://youtu.be/AGPfSgVqb78?t=880 

It is critical to use the right register - if one starts saying "निमित्तसप्तम्येषा । क्ङिन्निमित्ते ये गुणवृद्धी प्राप्नुतस्ते न भवतः ।" - that's obviously hard. Rather, if one says - "यदि कस्मिंश्चित् प्रत्यये ककारः / गकारः / ङकारः इत्संज्ञकः अस्ति, तर्हि तस्य प्रत्ययस्य उपस्थितौ अङ्गस्य अन्तिम इक्-वर्णस्य यद्यपि केनापि सूत्रेण गुणः वृद्धिः वा भवितुमर्हतः, तथापि तौ न भवतः । ... " (as niilesh does on his website) - that's far clearer. 

https://sites.google.com/site/samskritavyakaranam/ is another example - that American non-Indian gentleman (svarUp) has taught vyAkaraNa and nyAya to lots of students in weekly phone classes (should be able to find recordings) which uses Simple Standard Sanskrit register.  I attend a few and found that students were able to grasp what was being said very clearly.

 

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[Dhaval Patel]

Namaste Rohan ji,

Is the recording of the classes conducted available onlie? There maybe many people who are unable to attend daily, but can accomodate some time here and there and learn grammar. 

Dr. Dhaval Patel

[vishal jaiswal]

I second Dhavalji, for those who may not be able to attend in the time slot will find that extremely useful.

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[Sivasenani Nori]

I once travelled to Srisailam from Hyderabad (and back) with Prof. Rama Nath Sharma (translator of the Ashtadhyayi into English, a much more comprehensive translation than that of S C Vasu, nearly a century earlier), worthy son of the illustrious scholar Padmashree Raghunatha Sharma, who wrote the only complete commentary on the Vakyapadiya and who taught many great scholars of Sanskrit vyakarana including George Cardona. I asked Prof. Rama Nath Sharma how his father taught him Ashtadhyayi, especially the medium of instruction. It was Bhojpuri, their mother tongue. I am more familiar with the tradition in South India and know that languages other than Sanskrit are used in the initial stages. My own teacher, MM Prof. Korada Subrahmanyam garu switches languages based on the comprehension level of the student, in the tradition of तदाचार्यः सुहृद्भूत्वान्वाचष्टे. So, if the paramana of aptavaakya is sought, there is equal weight, if not more, for other views as well.

The point is that those who focus on teaching Sastra use all the means available to teach. At any rate, all that I say is that there is a case to use a medium other than Sanskrit. It is perfectly alright, welcome actually, if Sanskrit is taught through Sanskrit, whether the simple register or actual sentences from works like Siddhantakaumudi. There is no opposition to that.

The views of activists are different. Usually commitment to any cause, including noble ones, creates intolerance for other views, like how roses come with thorns. So be it. The other view, of course, is as Bernard Shaw puts it: all progress is due to unreasonable people, as the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself and not the other way round. My view is that an Acharya is competent to decide how to teach and we should respect that. 

विपुला च पृथ्वी। There is enough space for all views.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

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[kamalesh pathak]

A great opportunity but sorry sir , though I wish for 12 years laghu sidhdhant study, age matters, currently I'm running 59 , whenever short term (1/2/3 years) starts, I will join happily, basically I am pandit from Somanath angeged in rituals, wishing you a classic response and progress, regards n Jay Somnath

Kamalesh Pathak

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[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

On Thu, Jul 29, 2021 at 9:57 PM Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

My view is that an Acharya is competent to decide how to teach and we should respect that. 

No doubt, an AchArya is free to do what he/ she likes considering his/ her circumstance. No doubt the person will be fairly competent given prior experiences. 

That said, there are superior and inferior means of pedagogy; as well as true and false assertions. So, a competent teacher's practice (though good/ ok) is not necessarily the best, and the justification used for it (eg. teaching in marAThi is necessarily easier than teaching in SSS) is not necessarily true.

 

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[श्रीमल्ललितालालितः]

I think that your age may not be a barrier. The program definitely doesn't take 12 years to teach laghusiddAntakaumudI.

It is lack of elaboration about program which gives birth to such a confusion.

Rohan must break the timeline for others.

And, I also hope that those who want to take only one level or more, are allowed to do so.

I've seen some teacher who insisted on completing very long courses and failed miserably.