Yogi Prahlad Jani, who claimed to have survived for over 70 years without food and water, no more

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 26, 2020, 1:24:24 PM5/26/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/prahlad-jani-death-news-chunriwala-mataji-death-dies-dead-gujarat-gandhinagar-charada/597134

Yogi Jani's claims of surviving without food or water were always a matter of curiosity and scientists had tested them in 2003 and 2010.
In 2010, scientists and doctors from the Defence Institute of Physiology and Allied Sciences (DIPAS), which comes under the purview of the Defence Research and Development Organisation, carried out an observational study for a fortnight on the mystic to unravel the mystery behind his claim of surviving without food or water.
The DIPAS had said after the study that Jani had "some extreme form of adaptation to starvation and water restrictions".

--

Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 26, 2020, 6:52:53 PM5/26/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Afaik, one of the many side effects of mastery of the physical layer with hathayoga. There are many facets of practical yoga that modern science has yet to do understand or explain.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9ea4nvZ-zU7G36cQ0WRZB9jyBjVBbXzLPKSZK_oAk2k%3Djw%40mail.gmail.com.

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 26, 2020, 8:48:20 PM5/26/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Dear Sir

It is not fair to call it a claim after extensive testing and video records.
They apparently even measured the weight of water before and after bathing.
Words like extreme adaptation etc show that they had no clue and had to make up names for what was going on.

There are.. were many such paragons. PJ also claimed that he can live on for 5000 years if he so wished but decided not to.
One thing common with most is they avoid publicity.
PJ apparently thought otherwise.

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 26, 2020, 9:44:01 PM5/26/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

I agree and regret.

I should not have carried the news paper title as it is.

I should have removed 'claimed to have'.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/87668bef-0a9b-40c9-be68-eacc253caf08%40googlegroups.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 26, 2020, 10:53:43 PM5/26/20

to bvparishat

A general overbearing skepticism is evident among Westerners in general,

and scientists in particular (including scientists in India, by and large),

in regard to any accomplishment, especially by anyone in the East

(especially any ancient knowledge), even if he be he the most accomplished even,

till they can themselves get to explain them.

The general tone of their temerity is

"Whatever we cannot comprehend or repeat or explain at the moment, is all, after all, nonsense".

And once they are able to grasp something out of it, and discern the element of truth in the same,

they would make all claims without compunction, as to "their own discovery" of the same,

coupled by the smug contemptuous treatment of their very source of knowledge with

condescending expressions (relegated to some footnotes or even endnotes or even none at all) like

"my native informer tells me..."; and as their sinister perversity would inspire them

to take things to their logical conclusions, promptly rush to patent the same,

and make haste to cry hoarse about intellectual property rights and plagiarism.

Born racists as they are, they will brand even the free dispensers of knowledge as racists,

but promptly package it, brand it with new names, and make it a commercial enterprise.

Looting knowledge systems of other heritages, and making money out of it

is but their creed and tradition.

"te'mI mAnuSha-rAkShasaH para-hitam svArthAya nighnanti ye"

would only be a mild characterisation of their mean mien and degenerate demeanor.

Yoga and Ayurveda are not the only cases in point.

(And in order to prove the rule,

there will be a few exceptions among them, no doubt).

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZd0-51bkGo-vC6ORzDjo3VL4qWd%3DCEet-RTzQW8D8cAg%40mail.gmail.com.

--

Dr. K.S.Kannan D.Litt.

Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

Praveen R. Bhat

unread,

May 27, 2020, 12:42:33 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Namaste Nagaraj ji,

He had mentioned in one of the interviews years back that he survives on the amrita secreted due to khechari-siddhi.

Kind rgds,
--Praveen R. Bhat
/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 27, 2020, 12:49:42 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Yes, khechari is most definitely part of hathayoga. Makes perfect sense.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-ERDtM9YGNDxqHTvBJVJa2ST42sdkKPHipfC4u-AR6pKg%40mail.gmail.com.

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 27, 2020, 1:00:42 AM5/27/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

What 'surviving on the amrita secreted due to khechari-siddhi ' translates into the language these 'objective', 'empirical', 'logical positivist' 'researchers' is very difficult to say.

For me, proof of the pudding is in its eating.

The 'theory' to explain this, if it comes from a Hatha Yoga language and it is not translatable into the language that these people understand, that does not disprove anything. I don't mean that you are talking about disproving. I am talking about these scienticist sceptics,

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAKTyUKL_Pi%2BFx_bX69rw2L1gNOOSdSqHbQctxeK-GOeAkrY89g%40mail.gmail.com.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 27, 2020, 1:39:03 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Just wanted to add that what we call death due to some cause in such a case can be entirely voluntary after such yogis have accomplished their purpose in their current lifetime and moved on.

This is just to counter random speculations saying how can he die of something trivial after having lived miraculously for so long.

A case in point being the last known apostle of hathayoga, Paramhansa Madhavdasji who left this planet at age 122 apparently due to malaria.

Neither him nor his direct disciple Shri Yogendraji (my guru) are known in modern life like the other popular ones like Iyengar, etc. They did their work silently in yoga for yoga.

The final words uttered by Shri Yogendraji in 1989 before leaving were,

"The modern world is not ready for yoga as yet."

It sums up the current state of affairs very succinctly.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZ%2BM00fwKuiTAc8eSboCr0P%3DozWj-_ufSFXZ2mbwQvsiw%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 1:40:03 AM5/27/20

to bvparishat

Rightly have you pinpointed, Prof. Paturi,

on the inadequacies of their own languages

that inspires the typical Western investigator

to rather cast aspersions on the veracity of what has been stated

as a matter of actual experience.

Rather than make amends with their own language,

they rest contented vilifying and calumniating

what lies beyond their own ken,

or the "ken" of their own tongues.

To use a not so dignified, nevertheless not very incommensurate, analogy:

निन्दति कञ्चुकि-कारं

प्रायश्शुष्क-स्तनी नारी ॥

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eZ%2BM00fwKuiTAc8eSboCr0P%3DozWj-_ufSFXZ2mbwQvsiw%40mail.gmail.com.

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 2:42:14 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Dear Vishal ji-

Please try and find a better word than "apostle" as a moniker for mahapurushas. Despite its "secular" meaning I believe our languages are rich enough to express without bothering to borrow from the abrahamic faith.

I agree with everything you say.

Partly to blame is the kaccha nature of wannabe sadhakas in this day and age.

They want everything like fast food served on a plate for a comfortable price.

They therefore routinely end up with bs spewing trash talking gurus with a glib and urbane manner and an opinion on everything from fashion to politics.

I guess one gets what one pays for.

The other side of this coin is someone who learns a little and goes into "business" for himself/herself.

Dr. Kannan is right on almost every count and a lot of this has to do with the way the modern Indian family as the smallest cell of social structure has developed.

Something has to come from the "west" for it to be "cutting edge" enough for adoption by their children.

I guess 200 years of servitude does not die that easy.

Now when a person does not claim their ancestral property it is but natural that someone from outside lays the claim. Thats the way the world works.

No surprises there.

I believe ISKCON grew in India after Prabhupada came back with his dancing "white elephants". It is another matter whether Prabhupada's wish was achieved in so doing.

Yoga took an upswing again after Krishnamachary, BKS and others expanded to the west.

Lets face it: We lack shraddha and bhakti which is why we look outwards for validation.

Dr. Kannan --> The scientists and their ilk can be excused their snobbery, but definitely not the journalist who writes tripe in the name of journalism.

There are different elements of kechari siddhi in different schools raja yoga/ hatha / kriya / tantra etc.

I am not sure about origins which originated where, but kechari and amrit paan is a well known term used across tantric and yogic circles which interconnect at different levels so as to be indistinguishable.

for ex: in Hatha milking the tongue is adviced along with the use of rock salt to cut the frenum linguae

in Kriya there is a technique talabya kriya to achieve the same without the milking or cutting with externals.

In tantra they have a different marma sthana where the tongue exerts pressure.

The common aspect of all these techniques is that without the spiritual competence in terms of awakening of prana and chittashuddhi the tongue's length is of little use even if the complete technique is known.

As in all things praaptam is required. Most fatalists stop there. The segue goes like this...

And praaptam comes from karma properly applied.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6ERf3gRjwgx4gVchCJBgfYJ11_DpPbuYysCEpXGC2efA%40mail.gmail.com.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:00:17 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Agreed Venkatji, I am a certified yoga teacher from my guru's institute, but personally, the certificate means nothing to me. The spirit of a genuine yogi is reflected by the very life he leads, which is open for all to evaluate (technically yamas and niyamas among others). I am not comfortable catering to the asana circus, so have decided not to teach.

Regarding the term apostle, yes I used it in the secular way, just as I would apply catholic in the secular sense to yoga.

But I will try to choose something more appropriate next time.

Sadly, I grew up as an english snob, so my hindi is very pedestrian, and I can claim native fluency only in english so far. Thanks to yoga, I am deconditioned, and hope to achieve the same fluency in Samskrita as well as several other indian languages.

Vishal

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:03:22 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Dear Dr. Kannan:

I failed to add this:

The unkindest cut of all does not come from academics or journos who like hyenas have their own bellies to fill and can be "understood".

Shri Rambhau Swami of Tanjore who is famous for his agni stambhana attracted his share of sceptics who all had to leave scratching their head despite tests conducted on him and the clothing he wore.

A friend of mine a spiritual type told me that he has read of herbs that can prevent fire from burning.

I asked him for a demo.

He has not taken me up on that yet...:)

As I said, we lack shraddha and bhakti even when we are supposedly "aastika".

Vyasa's / sanatkumara's words are not enough for us.

It has to be backed by "scientific" proof and approval.

We are the same people who will chant "vyaasaya vishnu ruupaaya .." and then jump up and down that some scientist has backed some claim in the upanishads.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:12:31 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Shri Vishal ji-->

From one English snob to another..Hello!

One of my pet peeves against my mother is that she did not let me learn Tamizh (my mother tongue) because it was ostensibly difficult to write and marks were not that easy to come by (of all reasons).

I therefore settled for being mediocre in Hindi. Most of my Hindi developed thanks to movies and friends (Rajastanis/Gujjus..Punjus who would not use any language except Hindi in pvt conversation)...

I still regret that I do not have the capacity to appreciate Kamban despite being able to read the script.

It irritates me no end that I have to depend on an English transliteration of Thirumantiram.

I guess this is all shared baggage from colonial past where we are taught from the cradle to look down upon ourselves!

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAKTyUKL7XuL2xPACDPtmkaLdu_hfw2yjAnAPppaY2z9uAgCPZw%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:14:48 AM5/27/20

to bvparishat

Thanks for your mail, dear Venkat!

Our baggage - we have not shed it yet !

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAOWN-CYv-eWbXvp0qZZ7kCz7HFgjZP2byKuKg5X%3D-Av2BDQ6Pw%40mail.gmail.com.

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:25:58 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

" The unkindest cut of all does not come from scientists or journos who like hyenas have their own bellies to fill and can be "understood". "

I meant to write scientists and it came out as "academics".

Apologise for the error.

The problem with science is that it has become a new age religion with its own evangelists like Dawkins and Tyson. A big departure indeed from Galileo, Gauss and Newton.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm65k-n-P3%2B7s-uxrVHhTPJtBGQoocxMEns4nHHswZwDDQ%40mail.gmail.com.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:26:30 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Dear Venkatji, I truly feel your pain !

I am aware of missing out on the joy of reading indian literature without translation.

I am an aspiring polyglot, and I have the rather ambitious goal of covering nine Indian languages (among others) for the above goal. I don't know how practical it will be, given that Sanskrit is the most important among them all for me, and modern life is poor when it comes to time.

Besides Sanskrit -

Hindi/Urdu, Gujarati, Marathi, Malayalam, Telugu, Tamil, Kannada, Bengali, Assamese.

I may start a separate thread in the future asking for input on certain aspects in each language as well as language learning strategies from bvp members as I make concrete progress.

Vishal

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:32:58 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

You have a big project. Mastering 9.

Talk to Smt Irene Galstian.

She knows around 11.

She should be able to help you get the specifics ironed out.

I believe the world is better aligned for polyglottony (did I just make up a word?)

Gluttony starts with the mouth as does speech so there is a case to be made there!

You have italki apps that can help source native speakers, youtube videos and even excellent reading material.

The important thing is to find the time, discipline and persistence to hack through the initial inertia.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAKTyUKKhuVGdZwxsBO-utmg%2Bu%3DL7VjDE9L5ULmmTKH12tB2LxQ%40mail.gmail.com.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 27, 2020, 3:54:34 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Thanks Venkatji, I am in touch with Irene on that.

I have a purpose for the polygluttony (as you put it) - besides reading - to translate some of the best literature from other languages into idiomatic Samskrita :-)

Vishal

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAOWN-CanCATgQeSgaAe73WeJ6vLOnE3gObpMQ6y5hJcr6kUXBQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Bijoy Misra

unread,

May 27, 2020, 8:55:53 AM5/27/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

Friends,

I read through the discussion.

The challenge is not to dismiss an event, but to understand it.

The khichri process itself is physical. We have to find ways to simulate it from the basic physiology.

People who dismiss have little to do with yoga as a practice of life.

There are tasks for new Indian scientists, hopefully we achieve.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAKTyUKJOdG%2BcQ-kLjQoRdpwLuGuW%2B0wWdvEPfsKAqc9n4AFrAg%40mail.gmail.com.

Praveen R. Bhat

unread,

May 27, 2020, 9:56:52 AM5/27/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

The khechri process is far from physical! There are some that consider it as some chemical secretion from the pineal gland (and some conspiracy theories have done rounds about people drilling holes to reach it and tap it "from others" or oneself!)

The yoga-/kunDalini-shAstras state that this khechri-siddhi is not only in the tongue reaching deep enough to tap the drip but also for the drip to be converted to amrita. That may take a lifetime or more. Else it is viSha. A short test mentioned for this is: if it tastes bitter or salty, its viSha; if it tastes sweet, it is amrita. The blessing of the Guru in haTha yoga is needed as much as in shaktipAt, for amrita!

gurupAdukAbhyAm,

ajit.gargeshwari

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:35:48 AM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

This wiki link gives a balanced view. Science doesn't claim to have understood everything There are many events which science has no explanation or laws on which science is based. There is no difference between true scientific spirit and true philosophic spirit both tries to achieve the same goal by different methods Many are the paths to reach truth

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani

Regards

Ajit Gargeshwari

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 27, 2020, 1:31:11 PM5/27/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani#Reactions

was what was covered in the thread under 'sceptics'.

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/5d3b352d-a03e-45cc-b3f0-62a040fc5837%40googlegroups.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 7:36:43 PM5/27/20

to bvparishat

A healthy skepticism is desirable.

But where it is agenda-driven, and out to vilify something by hook or by crook,

it becomes fit to be discarded and refuted.

True, there are some who make tall/unwarranted claims. At the same time,

there are some who dismiss the most solid proofs.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9ebXeai7V9kp0w8nWszhCbV0u4L5%2BzXrRxrBJgjER9XWcg%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 27, 2020, 9:31:28 PM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

In this case whats the truth is let science till then believers can beleive who is stopping a believer from believing or science from progressing

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6e4a2TykWO87L8HQShUDptL40yuMR70YGYBhh_UKWzvw%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 10:07:09 PM5/27/20

to bvparishat

You are very right, dear Gargeswari.

It is only when one sits in judgement over the other that problems arise.

There are good and bad religionists as well as scientists,

human beings as they basically are.

Problems started in the West when the Church tried to scuttle science

and persecute scientists. Science grew skeptical of all religious claims.

There has no been persecution of scientists in India in general.

Apparently, the Abrahamic faiths give a license to loot and plunder

all "others", the heathens and the pagans. Western contempt of the East

had its genesis here, and is a continuing legacy yet.

This combination of factors - of scientists getting skeptical of all "religious" claims,

and of the West disdaining the East - has led to the current situation of

scientists irresponsibly dismissing off-hand any claim made by yogi-s,

some of whom did have, and do have, many attainments to their credit.

The attitude of the scientists that they can sit in judgement upon everything on earth,

despite costly lessons, is what is hindering a correct and full understanding of the situation.

Scientists poohpoohed yoga and ayurveda for quite some time,

but are ceding space by and by. It is when they speak in an arrogant tone

that they need to be shown their place.

There indeed are scientists, though not many in number,

who are quite serious and unsparing in their investigations,

yet humble enough to spell out what they know and what they do not.

Already towards the end of the 19th Century, scientists had stated (on record)

that there was nothing more to discover. Right in 1974, scientists had claimed that

in a matter of a quarter of a century, computers will understand jokes,

write poetry, create music, and even interpret Shakespeare etc.

Today's scientists know where they stand.

Better wisdom prevails in the writings of Nobel Laureates such as

Eddington and Schrodinger and others, who speak more responsibly.

There is no need to pay heed to the black sheep among scientists

whose sole goal is to carry on tirades against all Eastern wisdom.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEiegxnc5Ftgu8hpak1MGiECNcOhziopRWhkrLmG2qqrdyXw%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 27, 2020, 10:47:49 PM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

I don't find any connection between what you say to a belief which a believer can have which cannot proved or disproved with the knowledge of science one has at hand as of now. One need not bring in what western church does or doesn't do. Yogi Prahalad ji according to believer demonstrated yogic techniques for which science has no answer. He did miracles which is not accurately documented and has not been verified by independent sources. That does not stop a believer from believing neither does this mean scientific methods which science employs based on axiomatic truths is the only way and has all answers

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm4UeWaDg-AS4W1Dc0qBT8KwiTm1YGeQOCxagkeLoPtf%3Dg%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:00:46 PM5/27/20

to bvparishat

My statements pertain to those who think on the lines that

beliefs need a sound basis or a proper investigation.

I have no quarrel with those who say believers have their right

to believe whatever they like.

Attitudes often have a long history. There lay my need to

point to the genesis of the issue being discussed.

As long as prejudices do not colour the investigations,

there is no problem. Bias and arrogance vitiate truth,

whether on the side of the investigators or the "subjects" -

is all I wanted to say.

There is much wisdom, I feel, in your last statement.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEiegvOkzNgi1swU5212q%3DuGhT3a99B6Cb5KMeY1oe0Dw%2BHw%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:05:22 PM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

I agree how i wish this was your first mail in the thread.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm4UbQmVnaNY-DrYCipGL_qu18Hq8aksFakdUDOWGDhzFA%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:06:38 PM5/27/20

to bvparishat

How I wish you made the last statement first!

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEieg3%2Bg%3DxbsNiPpG4knhX7JDhy9G4Me_rG0AAqPzcEBqAig%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:31:46 PM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

"A general overbearing skepticism is evident among Westerners in general,

and scientists in particular (including scientists in India, by and large),

in regard to any accomplishment, especially by anyone in the East

(especially any ancient knowledge), even if he be he the most accomplished even,

till they can themselves get to explain them.

Looting knowledge systems of other heritages, and making money out of it

is but their creed and tradition"

My writing The above two sentences are equally applicable for a believer and non believer They are statements of a general nature and may or may not apply to yogis who perform miracles. why should one not be sceptical and question? Haven't miracles performed in the west questioned ? it has been .Have not Easterners looted their own heritage allowed foreigners to rule and make money. If I say 'I saw a Golden eagle flying in the sky and the Eagle spoke to me about the future and that is correct. If you don't agree you might be in for big trouble. Please non believers disprove me' Will any one beileive me? If I have a propaganda expert with me then large section of believers will come to my rescue else no one. I have read from great saints siddhis acquired are impediments to further spiritual progress. Siddhis are not be demonstrated

K S Kannan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:50:22 PM5/27/20

to bvparishat

A healthy skepticism, I have clearly asserted, is quite desirable.

Acquisition of siddhi-s is, as you have correctly pointed out,

is discouraged in the s'Astra-s for a serious student of adhyAtma

- though their truth as such is not denied. There may not be many

who have been able to attain one or more of the siddhi-s,

and many, in fact, do not wish to come to the fore either.

It would be wrong, you would agree too, if wrong claims of attainments are publicly made,

or if they are dismissed off-hand without proper and patient investigation.

Yes, the less we speak about the "black sheep" the better,

yet their very existence need not be denied either.

And due care must constantly be taken - for correction of

errors issuing from biases and ulterior motives.

Is there anything else?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEiehkEtCZWcafL22NGdmp6VWsYxwsAMYTETWprxOA_KDwmA%40mail.gmail.com.

venkat veeraraghavan

unread,

May 27, 2020, 11:55:13 PM5/27/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Siddhis are an impediment to progress is a refrain of people who don't have these.

Much nuance is needed to clarify this. It is convenient to say such things when one omits defining what constitutes progress.

Siddhis are a side effect of rise in consciousness and unavoidable just as one who rises high gets to see much farther than others at ground level.

One can choose to keep mum about what one sees but the power of ahamkara fuelled by taposhakti is too much for many to bear.

Siddhis are not meant for exhibition as you rightly say because no self respecting yogi would expose himself/herself for all the gold in the world.

If you visit a casino or youtube self help gurus you will find the con artists the jugglers the glib talkers near the entrance.

The high rollers the whales and the real billionaires keep their mouths tightly shut and live well hidden. The Donald ofcourse is a conspicuous exception.

It is like that in yoga as well.

While PJ may have been genuine his disciples are ego driven as most disciples are. This exposing of a yogi must have been their doing.

Also wikipedia is a mishmash of the opinions of n different people with competing opinions.

How much can a wiki entry say about a man's life?

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEiehkEtCZWcafL22NGdmp6VWsYxwsAMYTETWprxOA_KDwmA%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:01:55 AM5/28/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

When siddhiss are not be demonstrated and when they act likehindrances to Sadahanas then why demonstrate in way in which it can neither be proven conclusively or brushed aside as totally false The problem lies less not with sdahakas or with persons who have attained siddhis but with those who write and propagate such views make money and force non believers to believe or prevent studies from non believers and attach motives to non believers.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm5RpgbA%3DWq%2BAAbPN2prgtG95NPO6r7%3DPS8TZ-EaHeAtjQ%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:02:09 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

There is nothing to disagree with what Sri Veeraraghavan says.

One very minor correction:

tapas+shakti can be tapashshakti

(but not tapo-shakti)

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAOWN-CYet%3D_DWerjgUV2r2X48CTK6uTBzdOW9rW_zy1k5mJF7g%40mail.gmail.com.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:12:50 AM5/28/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Just a conjecture that the appearance of siddhis can be seen as signposts of progress? Which give some sort of concrete feedback to the yogin about where he has reached ? And that's the purpose siddhis serve ? After which he ignores the same and keeps marching forward.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6CcQRynCcjCD4d4DkMv%2BmnS016V2ahod6Q7YVZFxPi6Q%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:13:51 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

A mere negative approach may not take us too far.

Non-believers are free to say I do not understand this or like to believe this.

It is only if they say these things are impossible- even without a proper investigation

that the problem starts. If they have not come across people who make valid claims,

all they can claim is that they have not come across clear proofs of these claims.

But it is when they theorise/generalise and insist that such things are just impossible

that the real problems start.

Tall claims either on this side or the other are not proper, after all.

There have been many scientists too who have made very tall claims,

one should not forget. Human frailties these all are.

There can be genuine areas of investigation

where these frailties do not figure.

It is to them that we need to give attention.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEieg_7%2B-sSxujWSCFKfKB0a4AMnf8ATAw%2BrqvTeTcRWXvcg%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:17:08 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

Dear Jaiswal,

Yogic texts provide other indications also regarding one;s progress.

But also see vysasa-bhAShya on yoga-sUtra 3.51 reg. some pitfalls.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:17:14 AM5/28/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

What investigation should be done in domains where Perceptions by senses inferences with mind doesn't apply The sadhaks have done investigation and for the sadhaka has nothing to prove to those who believe in methods science understands

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm473_3gF%3D1V_yP%3DgHNj%2BMqE9oU6UVnG3RPU%3DtYEJQQudg%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:22:08 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

Your question is not easily understandable.

The language is not reflecting the idea perhaps.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEiej0p0k3pWM3aEHWE%2BJN1uGpMWEoL%3Dnyk4Hg-aK0PWBHFA%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:26:04 AM5/28/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Hence even ou tradition texts donot subscribe to public exhibitions if at all siddhis can be proven to be existence or not

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

Web site Visit https://archive.org/details/@sri_gargeshwari_digital_foundation

https://archive.org/details/karnatakasamskritauniversity

न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm6NgLKLkq-r5dHAGWsQPBXPCOJUsYaCibOG%3DViLn37%2B-A%40mail.gmail.com.

Shashi Joshi

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:40:12 AM5/28/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Just wondering aloud, if the thread has passed its expiry date.

Thanks,

~ Shashi

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:43:41 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

Yes,

only postmortem taking place!

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CANu%2BFoC4o3Lb8r6AT5sVaQSaqjcaheQYG1FVqugzJNuGiMJ1JA%40mail.gmail.com.

Praveen R. Bhat

unread,

May 28, 2020, 12:59:43 AM5/28/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Namaste Vishalji,

On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 9:42 AM vishal jaiswal <tovisha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just a conjecture that the appearance of siddhis can be seen as signposts of progress? Which give some sort of concrete feedback to the yogin about where he has reached ? And that's the purpose siddhis serve ? After which he ignores the same and keeps marching forward.

This is a good point. The siddhi/s, that would otherwise block samAdhi for a sAdhaka, become a tool in the hands of a siddha. There are following purposes to siddhi/s AFAIK:

1) marks progress.

2) serves as a test as to the readiness of the sAdhaka for the final goal, akin to that put by Yamaraja in Kathopanishad.

3) removes doubts of the sAdhaka as to being limitless/bigger than the upAdhi of the body.

4) in the hands of the siddha, it can be used for lokasangraha.

5) a siddha may use it as "an advertisement" to attract people to the path.

vishal jaiswal

unread,

May 28, 2020, 1:31:00 AM5/28/20

to bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Praveenji, I was writing on point 4, well said !

And dear Dr Kannan, I am not well versed in yoga texts or commentaries as yet. I am hoping to go in that direction only after my samskrita level allows me to do so in the future, I am staying away from translations as of now.

Vishal

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CACT7j-F6tsNXaeXBRH%3D1wL7CJfqwHvt1F9%2BJVOAz1NfnxDgrTQ%40mail.gmail.com.

K S Kannan

unread,

May 28, 2020, 1:55:03 AM5/28/20

to bvparishat

Dear Jaiswal,

It is always good to go to the originals.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAKTyUKJ9F-m6%2BySFOn6XBzcdZBXQMZtFNHwy3M1Hw03_Ba5gcQ%40mail.gmail.com.

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 28, 2020, 3:15:37 AM5/28/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

Dear Sri Ajit-ji,

1. No one has said anything disallowing the progress of science.

2. Sri Prahlad Jani-ji did not 'demonstrate' / 'perform' any siddhi. He was a saadhaka of a certain Devi upaasana in which even a male saadhaka dresses as a woman as part of the procedures of saadhana. That is the main aspect of his saadhana. People might have noticed that he was not taking food or water. The word would have spread. Such information certainly makes into news and 'tests' etc. are the natural fallouts.

3. What is a 'miracle' is quite often relative. Knowing the 'language' of birds and animals is considered to be a vibhooti in Yoga Sutras. In the text, it is advised that a great empathy with all the creatures can lead to this. Farmers can understand the 'language' of their pets and cattle. They can 'speak' to them too. This is a result of their love for their pets and cattle. For others who do not possess such ability, it might appear to be a miracle. The logic of the text is vindicated to an extent through this. Greater and greater such love and empathy with greater and greater number of creatures can lead to greater and greater levels of this ability.

4. Kanchi Paramacharya survived on a very small quantity of a morsel made of flake powder and lemon juice or something like that for decades. In my own house, my own father survived on such little quantity of extremely insipid food. He used to be more productive than most of us. He used to engage in high energy consuming deep and advanced scholarly and spiritual pursuits 0 hours a day. He used to explain the sufficiency of such a small amount of sleep in terms of the small amount of food he used to consume.

5.I encountered many Yogis in the Srisailam caves surviving without food or water , using some breathing techniques. This particular Yogi under discussion too has been mentioned in the news item as a breatharian Yogi.

6. We are not discussing belief vs science here. We are not discussing the cliched religion vs science too. We are discussing one knowledge system vs another. Science is a knowledge system, a young one at that. Yoga , Ayurveda etc. are knowledge systems too. Much much senior to this thing called science. Validity of these senior knowledge systems need not be measured upto this young one. Even among the contemporary academic fields, laws of one field do not get tested or proved by the methods of another field. I can not and need not prove a law of economics in a Physics laboratory.

7. The wiki page mentions a 2006 Discovery Channel program titled "The Boy with Divine Powers" . The boy here is a Buddhist monk. Sri Prahlad Jani-ji appears in the interview just as a matter of course. The common point is the scienticist curiosity about the ability to survive without food for long periods. The link for the video provided on the wiki page :https://archive.org/details/TheBoyWithDivinePowers

8. There is a warning during certain videos, activities performed are performed by experts. "Do not attempt the tricks or any stunts and tricks displayed in the videos. Most of these stunt performers are skilled professionals or simply very lucky people. TRYING THESE TRICKS COULD LEAD TO SERIOUS INJURY, INCLUDING PARALYSIS, OR EVEN DEATH." " Do not attempt the tricks or any stunts and tricks displayed in the videos. Most of these stunt performers are skilled professionals or simply very lucky people. TRYING THESE TRICKS COULD LEAD TO SERIOUS INJURY, INCLUDING PARALYSIS, OR EVEN DEATH." This applies to 'miracles' / 'miraculous behavior' by Yogis too. Science looks for replicability of an activity. But there are many activities that are not replicable by every other person. That does not disprove their factuality.

9. The wiki page mentions two kinds of scientific tests. While reporting tests by certain groups from outside India, it mentions words such as 'cheating' used by those groups. It may be a balanced reporting to mention such views of the sceptics alongside the reports of testing by DIPAS .While discussing the news, we covered them under sceptics. So they received attention they deserve, here.

10. This forum is a forum discussing Indic knowledge Systems. It is quite natural that it does not like the knowledge system of its focus to be subservient to another knowledge system called science.

May the knowledge system called science progress. May studying, reviving, putting to contemporary use of Indic Knowledge Systems progress. May shielding of IKS from being confused for religion, faith, belief etc. progress.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAN47gm58rE4QakH44OGv%2BzKXOL9iWp9A7%2BeYwuVNuZQPVNvA4w%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 28, 2020, 3:26:13 AM5/28/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

Thank you I have nothing much to add

You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/bvparishat/RiE-ORSKfzA/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9eYkyradoUPmiW8eBvJMSqb1KkyGKVNHNGu21H3VJgg7iw%40mail.gmail.com.

Nagaraj Paturi

unread,

May 28, 2020, 3:31:18 AM5/28/20

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

There was a grave typo:

Kanchi Paramacharya survived on a very small quantity of a morsel made of flake powder and lemon juice or something like that for decades. In my own house, my own father survived on such little quantity of extremely insipid food. He used to be more productive than most of us. He used to engage in high energy consuming deep and advanced scholarly and spiritual pursuits 20 not 0 hours a day. He used to explain the sufficiency of such a small amount of sleep in terms of the small amount of food he used to consume.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CALaEieghN_f1oTW__wwVacmEn-s4MnrKxioXAyyDs%2BcrswO8mw%40mail.gmail.com.

Ajit Gargeshwari

unread,

May 28, 2020, 3:41:26 AM5/28/20

to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्

I would have not written this much If We are not discussing belief vs science here. We are not discussing the cliched religion vs science too you are right

I was only writing to these lines for I have received explanations and am satisfied.

A general overbearing skepticism is evident among Westerners in general, Western investigator
to rather cast aspersions on the veracity of what has been stated
as a matter of actual experience.
Rather than make amends with their own language, (Westerners) they rest contented vilifying and calumniating
what lies beyond their own ken, or the "ken" of their own tongues.