Relation between 'Rāma' and 'Roaming'
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Niranjan Saha
May 27, 2020, 5:11:42 PM5/27/20
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Dear List,
One of my old students who is teaching in a West Bengal (India) Government aided primary school has pointed out the following to me (I've also attached the screenshots sent by him, which are in Bengali script).
In a text book it's mentioned that the Sanskrit word 'Rāma' and the English one 'Roaming' have similarity in terms of their pronunciation and meaning, as 'Rāma' means 'roamer' (i.e. a person who roams), and that Rāma is a hero in the Ramayana which refers to the fact that a group of nomads, while roaming, entered the Indian subcontinent and settled in the southern part of India after being settled in the northern part of India.
I'd appreciate to know if the word 'Rāma' bears any such meaning etymologically.
Sorry for cross posting.
With regards,
Niranjan
Niranjan Saha, PhD, FRAS
Department of Philosophy
Kaliachak College (Gour Banga University)
Sultanganj, Malda, West Bengal, 732201
Publications:
Kushagra Aniket
May 27, 2020, 6:12:52 PM5/27/20
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Dear Niranjan Ji,
According to this, "roam" is derived from a root that yields रिणाति in Sanskrit.
We know that Rama (राम) is derived from रम् verb stem (enjoy, delight, rest, etc.). For example, रमन्ते योगिनो यस्मिन् चिदानन्दे चिदात्मनि in the शाङ्करभाष्य on विष्णुसहस्रनाम. Additional etymologies can be found in the Adhyatma Ramayana and Ramcharitmanas of Tulsidas (जो आनंद सिंधु सुखरासी। सीकर तें त्रैलोक सुपासी।।). From the perspective of Vyakarana, राम is constructed by applying घञ् प्रत्यय to रम्. The learned grammarians in this forum can provide additional color.
Therefore, while Rama is related to रमण, I don't see evidence for its etymological relationship to "roam." Moreover, the theory of the migration and settlement of nomadic tribes in northern and Southern India is disputed. It may not be advisable to connect such a hypothesis with the story of Shri Rama but I understand that it has been done so by some in the past.
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Niranjan Saha
May 28, 2020, 10:00:08 AM5/28/20
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Dear Kushagra Aniket-ji,
Thank you so much for your simple and profound note on the point.
But I wonder if the children who are being taught this lesson now would only get chance to know the fact in distant future.
With regards,
Niranjan
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Niranjan Saha <shri...@gmail.com>: May 28 02:37AM +0530
Dear List,
One of my old students who is teaching in a West Bengal (India) Government
aided primary school has pointed out the following to me (I've also
attached the screenshots sent by him, which are in Bengali script).
In a text book it's mentioned that the Sanskrit word 'Rāma' and the
English one 'Roaming' have similarity in terms of their pronunciation and
meaning, as 'Rāma' means 'roamer' (i.e. a person who roams), and that Rāma
is a hero in the Ramayana which refers to the fact that a group of nomads,
while roaming, entered the Indian subcontinent and settled in the southern
part of India after being settled in the northern part of India.
I'd appreciate to know if the word 'Rāma' bears any such meaning
etymologically.
Sorry for cross posting.
With regards,
Niranjan
Niranjan Saha, PhD, FRAS
Department of Philosophy
Kaliachak College (Gour Banga University)
Sultanganj, Malda, West Bengal, 732201
Publications:
https://ismdhanbad.academia.edu/NiranjanSaha
Kushagra Aniket <ka...@cornell.edu>: May 27 06:12PM -0400
Dear Niranjan Ji,
According to this, "roam" is derived from a root that yields रिणाति in
Sanskrit.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h%E2%82%83reyH-
We know that Rama (राम) is derived from रम् verb stem (enjoy, delight,
rest, etc.). For example, रमन्ते योगिनो यस्मिन् चिदानन्दे चिदात्मनि in the
शाङ्करभाष्य on विष्णुसहस्रनाम. Additional etymologies can be found in the
Adhyatma Ramayana and Ramcharitmanas of Tulsidas (जो आनंद सिंधु सुखरासी।
सीकर तें त्रैलोक सुपासी।।). From the perspective of Vyakarana, राम is
constructed by applying घञ् प्रत्यय to रम्. The learned grammarians in this
forum can provide additional color.
Therefore, while Rama is related to रमण, I don't see evidence for its
etymological relationship to "roam." Moreover, the theory of the migration
and settlement of nomadic tribes in northern and Southern India is
disputed. It may not be advisable to connect such a hypothesis with the
story of Shri Rama but I understand that it has been done so by some in the
past.
Best,
Kushagra
Kushagra Aniket
Cornell University'15
ka...@cornell.edu
"Venkatakrishna Sastry" <sastr...@gmail.com>: May 28 12:56AM +0530
Namaste
1. The script reform approach of 1970 -to-1980 is a very narrow window to understand the decays that were already set in in the traditional Education system at India.
The ' historic narrative , useful for a good postmortem analysis can be seen in the 44 page report report available at the following link
https://sg.inflibnet.ac.in/bitstream/10603/69112/5/chapter%203.pdf .
Good people have advised in the past on what needs to have been done. The failure to implement the good advise, as ' Ravana , Dhrutarashtra' syndrome lies elsewhere.
One can see this scenario for each of the indian languages; and focusing on Sanskrit, the failure to implement the three education commission reports so far.
What is happening at the current period in the name of ' pushng digital literacy' as New NAtional Education policy is struggle to fit an elephant to the pigeons hols :: Indic langague repertorie to fit on the given unicode framework and 'legacy encoding', which is on the exit mode in A.I for Human Langauge technologies framework.
2. Knowledge of history is important to diagnose the malady. But pushing ' hisotry to be the detiny of present endeavor' needs a justification by several factors, especialy the econmic factor.
The 'makret for 'Moksha- Spiritual dimension of langauge -education offers ' is not same as ' 'Market-Social dimension of langauge -education offers accelearted through technology power'.
If 'we the langauge people' do think that the 'langauge standards of specific texts and resoruces' are of value, then we need to show the relevance of these studies ,today and for future.
We are not going to live in past. We just slide down time-line to become 'past' , post our active life and life span.
The script reform committee used a specific reform under a social and technological constraint. And it was good for the literacy of the specific writing system. Scripts evovled ever since IVC to Ashokan to current period. But the voice of the sacred texts still remain the ancient one and standard.
The language user communities seem to have become insensivitie / developed new snsitivities in articulating the sounds of sacred texts; an inchecked unrestrained drift in slippage of ear-sensitivity to language sounds and standards.
The missing dimension of 'Tradiitonal Langauge' is it connection to socio-economics of nation and relevance to ' techno-economics' due to ' langauge user community apathy.
3. Cleaning up the three hundred years ' dust of langauge reform and social apathy' using a few millennia old texts for referencing and then aligning it to a alien language phonetic structure and standards --- There seems to be some thing misisng in the entire discourse here.
The human voice with all its potential, remains the same, waiting for any one to be discovered and used. This is Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya as 'Vak-Yoga' appraoch to study and experience. This pursuit to discover the potential of human speech is not constrained by langauge tag classifications and use in historic time. Langauge sound is a current moment and person specific reality. Script is only a pointer ( upalakshana, soochaka, shaakhaa -chandra nyaya).
Regards
BVK Sastry.
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Radhakrishna Warrier
Sent: Wednesday, 27 May, 2020 10:59 AM
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
The saṃvṛta ukāram is a short vowel, that can be described in English as a schwa at the end of words. Dravidian languages do not like to end words in consonants, i.e., as halanta, unless the final consonants are any of the nasal consonants or r, l, or ḷ. The vowel ‘u’ is a very common word final vowel. When foreign words are adopted into the language, a final u is added to the words if there is a word final consonant. So, Sanskrit vāk becomes vākku. In Malayalam and Tamil, this ancient word final hrasva ukāra evolved into the saṃvṛta ukāram. Vākku became vākkŭ. Bonafide Dravidian words also underwent this evolution. Examples nāḍŭ (country), kāḍŭ forest).
Before the 1980’s this saṃvṛta ukāram was shown in writing by placing the halant symbol (“chandrakkala” in Malayalam) over the consonant+u character. It looks like this:
വാക്ക് वाक्क् Vākk - halanta
വാക്കു वाक्कु Vākku – hrasva ukāra
വാക്കു് वाक्कॅ Vākkŭ - saṃvṛta ukāra
As a result of the script reform of the 1970=80, the saṃvṛta ukāram was dropped. It was decided to write വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ) as വാക്ക് (Vākk) under the assumption that Malayali would anyway read it as വാക്കു് (Vākkŭ).
The saṃvṛta ukāram is not in the chart you forwarded.
Instead, the chart has the following entry:
Virama
0D4D ് MALAYALAM SIGN VIRAMA
= candrakkala (the preferred name)
= vowel half-u
The last, “vowel half-u” is the saṃvṛta ukāram. But it is equated to the virāma, or the halanta symbol chandrakkala (്).
Regards,
Radhakrishna Warrier
_____
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki) <vishvas...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, May 26, 2020 9:10 PM
To: bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} उच्चारणदोषाः
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 9:29 AM Radhakrishna Warrier <radwa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
In my personal opinion, that was not a wise move, like the discarding of the samvrta ukaara in the 1970 - 1980 period.
What did this saMvRta ukAra look like? When was it adapted? Do you see it in https://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U0D00.pdf <https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unicode.org%2Fcharts%2FPDF%2FU0D00.pdf&data=02%7C01%7C%7C362089e61cad4035d0e208d801f3f304%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637261494546061445&sdata=zAAew4iRhdl01xbGErB76N6fNrlxVKfIR8HElLE9j68%3D&reserved=0> ?
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Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan <b.ra...@gmail.com>: May 27 03:30PM -0400
Dear Sri Venkat
Actually the late Srimati MSS is correct and pretty much right on the
money. As per the nannUl, there are specific rules on how the ca-kAra
should be pronounced. An old (free) translation of the nannUl can be found
here https://archive.org/details/atamilgrammarde00lazagoog/mode/2up. The
relevant sections are
[image: image.png]
[image: image.png]
One can argue how close to the Sanskrit sha-kAra the ca-kAra in tamil icai
is, but it's certainly not isai. More "Brahmanical" accents use the
Sanskrit sha very clearly, while purists may say it slightly different, but
definitely not the Sanskrit sa-kAra. That sound is just not there in
classical Tamil, although pretty much everyone uses it. We did learn these
nuances in high school Tamil grammar.
The author has pointed out an equivalent Telugu alphabet, but I don't know
Telugu to know what this means. An interesting note: my wife always says
sharkara (similar to Tamil cakkarai), but means jaggery in Malayalam. I
verified from her, they actually write the equivalent of the Sanskrit sha.
Ramakrishnan
On Tue, May 26, 2020 at 10:52 AM venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Roland Steiner <ste...@staff.uni-marburg.de>: May 27 06:55PM +0200
> so it's Slaje behind it?
It is not clear to me what this strange formulation is meant to express.
> There is no date and year when it was started as far as I can see.
https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/?lang=en
Best,
Roland Steiner
"Mārcis Gasūns" <gas...@gmail.com>: May 27 10:17AM -0700
On Wednesday, 27 May 2020 19:55:08 UTC+3, Roland Steiner wrote:
> > so it's Slaje behind it?
> It is not clear to me what this strange formulation is meant to express.
Who inspired the work?
> > There is no date and year when it was started as far as I can see.
> https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/?lang=en
It is said it started in 2013, strange,
because https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/PWScan/disp2/index.php
we there by that time available.
Roland Steiner <ste...@staff.uni-marburg.de>: May 27 07:34PM +0200
> because
> https://www.sanskrit-lexicon.uni-koeln.de/scans/PWScan/disp2/index.php
> we there by that time available.
There is nothing strange about it, because it is a "KUMULATIVES
NACHTRAGSwörterbuch ZU den Petersburger Wörterbüchern (pw) von Otto
Böhtlingk und den Nachträgen von Richard Schmidt" (= "a CUMULATIVE
SUPPLEMENTARY dictionary TO the Petersburg dictionaries (pw) by Otto
Böhtlingk and the supplements by Richard Schmidt"-
Description:
"[...] For a more detailed assessment of the search results, the
following remarks about the construction of the portal and its three
components, the NWS (left), pw (middle) and Schmidt (right) may be of
help. First of all, the object of the project funded for three years
by the DFG was a cumulative search of a large number of „Nachträge“
(addenda), which resulted in the NWS (left). The left window will
display only information not contained in pw or Schmidt. This means
that, for instance, the dictionaries of Edgerton and Grassmann are not
contained in the NWS as a complete set of data, merely what is missing
in the pw is given. The idea behind the portal was to allow the user
to review all three sources of lexical information at a glance. The
data of the pw and of Schmidt were given to our project for this
purpose by Thomas Malten, Köln. Basically they are identical with the
data in the background of the Cologne Dictionary Project, but there
are obvious modifications to the presentation on screen, and perhaps
more importantly, we have started to apply our own corrections to the
data, which will thus fork into a new śākhā.
Unfortunately this history of the portal needs to be kept in mind for
using the search tools. Only the addenda in the NWS were fully tagged
by the present project, whereas the data from the Cologne project
could not be reworked in this way. For this reason, all specifications
of search only apply to the left window. The same limitation affects
the information popping up during lemma entry: the suggestions are
taken from a list of NWS lemmata, not of pw lemmata! It is also worth
noting that the popups are not static, but change with further inputs.
If one tries to search for vyavahāra, entering the first six letters
produces the correct lemma. If one continues entering letters, the
system produces further lemmata, for instance compounds as
vyavahārapāda etc., which are generated from NWS entries only. The
difference is made clear when one actually starts the search, which
yields many more hits. [...]"
Full Description:
https://nws.uzi.uni-halle.de/description?lang=en
Best,
Roland Steiner
Anil <anil.l...@gmail.com>: May 28 12:35AM +0530
Respected sir,
After Using Advance Option (Pattern Search), I could be able to find 37
instances of आनर्च्छत् in Mahabharata. We are improving it more and very
soon you would have a flexible search option with more encoding options
where this kind of problems will not occur. At present, if you have some
idea about pattern matching or regular expression, you can use advance
search option.
[image: Screenshot from 2020-05-28 00-24-13.png]
--
Anil Kumar
Sridhar Padmanabhan <srisa...@gmail.com>: May 27 11:38PM +0530
Namaste.
Abhinav, you can try Aksharamukha website.
On Wed 27 May, 2020, 12:47 PM Abhinav Kadambi <abhinav...@gmail.com
wrote:
Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>: May 27 11:00PM +0530
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prahlad_Jani#Reactions
was what was covered in the thread under 'sceptics'.
On Wed, May 27, 2020 at 9:05 PM ajit.gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/5d3b352d-a03e-45cc-b3f0-62a040fc5837%40googlegroups.com
> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/5d3b352d-a03e-45cc-b3f0-62a040fc5837%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
> .
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Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy
BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
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