Buddha in Ramayana

[ramchander deekonda]

vidvadbhyo namaH,

In ,अयोध्याकाण्ड  while replying to जाबालि, श्रीराम  says "यथा हि चोरः स तथा हि बुद्धस्तथागतं नास्तिकमत्र विद्धि .........". 

I request the scholars to enlighten me whether the referred बुद्ध of this sloka is Lord Buddha of कलियुग or does it refer to an enlightened person.

Regards,

Ramchander Deekonda

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

Dear Shri Deekonda,

According to R.C.Hazra this part of the Raamaaya.na is a later interpolation that is to say it was not in the Raamaaya.na composed by Vaalmiiki. I cannot immediately cite from Hazra but , as far as I remember, the remarks occur in his Studies in the Upapuraa.nas.

Bset

DB

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/bvparishat.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thank you Prof. Dipak Bhattacharya, for this pointer.

 

This verse is being used for dating the authorship of Ramayana later to Buddhism. But this identification of the verse as interpolation counters all such approaches.

 

Some people tried to remove the meaning of Buddha as a specific personality and interpret the words buddhah and tathaagatah in a different meaning than referring to a personality.

 

e.g. In Desiraju Hanumantha Rao and KMK Murthy uploaded version at

http://www.valmikiramayan.net/ayodhya/sarga109/ayodhya_109_frame.htm

 

it is interpreted as follows: 

yathaa hi choraH sa tathaa hi buddha |
stathaagataM naastikamatra vidhhi |
tasmaaddhi yaH shaN^kyatamaH prajaanaam |
na naasti kenaabhimukho budhaH syaat 2-109-34

34. yathaahi tathaa hi= It is an exact state of the case; saH= that; buddhaH= a mere intellection; choraH= (is deserves to be punished) as a thief; viddhi= and know; naastikam= an atheist; atra= here; tathaagatam= to be on par with a mere intellectual; tasaat= therefore; yaH= he who; shaN^kya tamaH= is the most suspectable; prajaanaam= (should be punished in the interest of) the people; na syaat= In no case; buddhaH= should a wise man; abhimukhaH= consort; naastikaa= with an atheist.

"It is an exact state of the case that a mere *intellection deserves to be punished as it were a thief and know an atheist to be on par with a mere intellectual. Therefore he is the most suspectable and should be punished in the interest of the poeple. In no case should a wise man consort with an atheist."

* It is the word that is responding to the chanllenge, which we call intellection. Truth/God is very subtle. A mind that is caught in the net of words/arguments cannot understand truth/God.

 

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

You are welcome!

I must find out where Dr. R.C.Hazra, the most well-knoiwn authority on the history of the Puraa.nas said this. Perhaps it is the the first volume of the Studies in the Upapuraa.nas. I remember the revered Hazra, who never said anything that he was not definite about. I miss my teacher often.
Best
DB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

Quite sometime ago I happened to read the Kapila-Asuri Samvada, the most ancient version of the Sankhya in the Southern-recension of the Mahabharata, and that does mention Buddha, who is none other than the Sankhya-jnani, the ultimate goal of the seeker on the Sankhya-path.

Lord Buddha learnt Sankhya by his guru Allada (Allara) Kalama. Lord Buddha was not satisfied with the multiplicity of the souls and he contested that the multiplicity cannot be the final step in the search. On further meditation he realized the truth of the Universal unity and then he became Buddha.

Thus it is beyond doubt that the word "Buddha" is more an Epithet or Designation, known from the Mahabharata times five thousand years ago, if not earlier.

Regards,

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

Dear Shri Bhattacharjya,

Could you kindly mention the location and also if the Kapila-Asuri-Samvada has been retained in the critical edition?

Best

DB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Yes, This is retained in the BORI - Critical edition of Mahabharata as an appendix to Volume 12.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

That means it has not been given place in the main body. It is another interpolation like the Devi stuti

DB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

Let us agree to disagree. I am sure those who have read the materials of the last four lectures of Dr. Sukhtankar on the Mahabharata, which he delivered at the Asiatic Society, Bombay, would know the reason. The Asiatic society had published these materials and made a very succinct comment stating that Dr. Sukhtankar reversed his editorial policy, for which he stood all his life. Out of the scheduled four lectures, Dr. Sukhtankar could deliver only three lectures on three days and it is very sad that on the fourth day (i.e., on the last day)  he passed way before he could deliver his last lecture.  I was fortunate to read those lecture materials along with the editorial comments and that was some forty years ago.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

​​
​Dear Sunil Bhattacharya,​

On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:15 AM, sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was fortunate to read those lecture materials along with the editorial comments and that was some forty years ago.

​

Donor you think this is your opinion until you can share what you have read Thanks​ I too would have read some thing some where 30 years back until I can share and the material is available it will be my own opinion

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Madhav Deshpande]

By chance, are these lectures of Sukhtankar available anywhere in an online access?  Thanks.

Madhav Deshpande

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor of Sanskrit and Linguistics
Department of Asian Languages and Cultures
202 South Thayer Street, Suite 6111
The University of Michigan
Ann Arbor, MI 48104-1608, USA

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear Ajitji,

The four lecture-details  of Dr. V.S.Sukhtankar were published later on by Motilal Banarsidass in a book form under the name "The Meaning of Mahabharata" and manycould have read the same. I happened to read that long ago and it is not possible to supply the book. Had it been available to me in pdf, I would have sent that without delay.

Secondly I would like to draw your attention to the fact the Mahabharata in the final form has been said to have 100,000 verses. To my knowledge nobody has found any version of Mahabaharata with more than 100,000 verses. that shows that there were very good chances of dropping off verses in some verses but there is very little chance of interpolation. Had there been interpolation the total number of verses should have exceeded 100,000. If you are aware of any version of Mahabharata with more than 100,000 verses, you may kindly let us
know.

Dr. Pradip Bhattacharya from Kolkata had recently made the following announcement in the "mahabharata_study" yahoogroup,  and I congratulate Dr. Pradip Bhattacharya for his laudable effort.

Quote
I have just sent to Writers Workshop my complete English translation, sloka by sloka, in free verse and prose (there are prose passages too in the original) of the Mokshadharma Parva. It runs to nearly 1,81,000 words, 928 pages of A-4 size in single space. Let's see when it comes out. This conflates the Gita Press, Bhandarkar and Haridas Siddhantavagish editions (the last has many passages not found anywhere else). The Gita Press includes much from the Southern Recension. So this will be most complete translation so far--much more than K.M.Ganguli or M.N.Dutt's.

Unquote

Regards,

Sunil KB

--

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

One will find an account of the history of the stage by stage growth of the Mahābhārata on pp.323 - 327 of the 1926 - 27 edition of the Mrs. Ketkar's English translation of the first volume of Winernitz's (1907) Geschichte der indischen Literatur. It speaks of internal evidence for pre-Śatasāhasrī-Saṃhitā versions in 8800 and 24000 verses.

Best

DB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

It is true that the Mahabharata had the three stages of composition / compilation and the Mahabharata itself was the first to divulge that. In the beginning the sage  Vedavyasa composed the Jaya-Samhita, which had 8,800 verses. This was expanded by Vedavyasa himself to the Bharata-Samhita, which had 24,000 verses. It was this Bharata-Samhita, which Vaishampayana nrarrated to Janmejaya at the Sarpayajna, on the express directive of Vedavyasa himself. Vedavyasa was present during that narration. There were questions cropping up during that narration and additional materials got added at that time and that is the genesis of the Mahabharata of 100,000 verses. Thus Vedavyasa was thoroughly involved in the production of the version of the Mahabharata with 100,000 verses and the Adi parva attributes the 100,000 verses to Vedavyasa only.

As regards Prof. M. Winternitz, the writer of"Geschichte der indischen Literatur" ("A history of Indian Literature" - in English) I have no doubt that he was a great scholar, yet we all know now, that the scenario on  the India's antiquity has changed considerably, since the days of Prof. Winternitz, who worked for some years as an assistant of Prof. Max Muller, the architect of the Aryan invasion theory (AIT).  Prof. Winternitz was obviously  influenced by the AIT, like his contemporaries were in those days, and he  obviously subscribed to the view that the Mahabharata period was around 6th century BCE, in keeping with the AIT time-line. We now know that the AIT view was wrong, thanks to the archeological findings on the lost river Sarasvati as well as the astronomical studies, which  support the Pauranic Chronology,  according to which the Mahabharata period was in the 32nd century BCE. Had Prof. Winternitz been alive today it is possible that he might have changed some of his views, after seeing these fresh evidences.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Dear friends,

Kindly permit me to address the very first question posed by Shri Ramchander Deekonda. Lord Ram lived long before Lord Buddha, Valmiki mentions the four-tusked elephants in Lanka and that type of elephant disappeared from the Earth, about eight to nine thousand years ago.  Therefore any mention of Buddha would obviously not refer to Lord Buddha,

I am attaching a page with that particular verse (Ramayana :  2,109,34) from D.P. Sharma's translation, which appears to make sense.

Regards,

Sunil KB

--

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

=====Mod Note===========

Lord Ram lived long before Lord Buddha, Valmiki mentions the four-tusked elephants in Lanka and that type of elephant disappeared from the Earth, about eight to nine thousand years ago.

Whats the basis of this absurd chronology and four-tusked tusk elephants, I think Suniji, needs to post main stream research here. Wild speculations are best left out

Request to Suniliji not post non mainstream speculations

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Vineet Chaitanya]

In this connection it may be interesting to read: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomphothere

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Valmiki had seen or had knowledge Gomphothere and its description is given in Ramayana. Hence Ramayana was composed 8 or 9 thousand years ago Thanks I never had thought about it

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[K S Kannan]

There is the S"aD-danta-jAtaka (षड्-दन्त-जातक) tale, in which the elephant, a previous incarnation of the Buddha, had six tusks. The story of the conception has it that the Buddha's mother dreamt it as entering her womb.

- Kannan

Dr. K.S.Kannan

Professor, Centre for Ancient History and Culture,

Jain University

Postal Addr: CMS Annex, 319, 17th Cross, 25th Main,

J P Nagar 6th Phase, Bangalore - 560 078

(Ex-Director, Karnataka Samskrit University)