time of patanjali
Veeranarayana Pandurangi
Head, Dept of Darshanas,
Yoganandacharya Bhavan,
Jagadguru Ramanandacharya Rajasthan Samskrita University, Madau, post Bhankrota, Jaipur, 302026.
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
Sivasenani Nori
Maybe the word SramaNa was appropriated by Buddhists later, and maybe Prakrit usages deliberately or otherwise retained improper forms - the way we see certain same-meaning words repeated in Telugu: చనిపోయెను (chanipoyenu; went-went, meaning dead) పేపర్ కాగితము (paper-kaagitamu, meaning simply paper - not used by Sishtas, but by certain uneducated rural people).
History does not give up its secrets easily, I guess.
--
PRADEEP VARMA
--
Surendra Mohan Mishra
--
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
*****
Surendramohan Mishra
Dept of Sanskrit,Pali & Prakrit
Faculty of Indic Studies,Kurukshetra University
KURUKSHETRA-136 119,Haryana,INDIA
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http://surendra-shaastram.blogspot.com
subrahmanyam korada
vartamAne lat. - ks.an.abhan'gavAda.h?
Please read the Udyota carefully -- anupalabdhipramAn.Acca tadabhAvanis'caya iti bhAva.h . ks.an.abhan'gavAdyevAtra vakteti tu na yuktam , tasya ' medhAvisammata iti vis'es.an.Anupapatte.h , ' yadi samprati ' iti uktisambhavAbhAcca .
A ks.an.abhan'gavAdI cannot be accepted as a MedhAvI . ' yadi samprati patasi ' - is not acceptable to Ks.n.ikavAdI because it goes beyond one ks.an.a .
S'amkarAcArya (BrahamsUtrabhAs.yam - Adhyaya 2 ) calls Bauddhas by the name ' vainAs'kA.h ' ( ardhavainAs'ikA.h = KAn.AdA.h )
- vinAs'a.h prayojanam yes.Am te ( t.ha~n by 'Prayojanam' Panini) . They follow ' asatkAryavAda' .
Bonus Info -- Nagesa under this SUtra committed a mistake - ' kAkana ' - is a ParyAya of ' kAka ' . In fact usages are there with two na~n -- na krodho na ca mAtsaryam .. (BhagavadgItA ) .
dhanyo'smi
--
Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)
S P Narang
| Generally the time of Patanjali is related to the invasion of Mathura on the basis of the Mahabhasya and later works on sanskrit grammar. the variants of the reading has created another problem. the details are discussed in Keith, Puri,: India as known to Patanjali; Agnihotri (PD)....Patanjalikalina bharata; works on Kushanas and Mathura Art. Most probably the invasion referred to is in the Ist cent. A.D. the invasions continued upto Harshavardhana who went to uproot Hunas. Perhaps, they tried to make a city at erana which was not successful. Kalidasa's ref. to prathitavidishalakshanam raajadhaaniim.....indirectly refers to this raajadhaanii of Hunas only which was interpreted differently. by commentators particularly Mallinatha who had less knowledge of history and did not visit Ujjaini. the concept of simile of Sun with ksiibaanganaa is not an
Aryan. It is most probably Huna poetry in content and style. Regards, spnarang --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Surendra Mohan Mishra <dr.surendramo...@gmail.com> wrote: |
Shrisha Rao
> Recently Shrisha Rao quoted ग्रामे ग्रामे काठकं कालापकं च प्रोच्यते
My point in this regard was this: how would there be a situation where learning was so prevalent that the काठक and कालापक were taught in village after village in a significantly widespread area, as Patanjali says? Many people would hold that this is impossible, and some modern educational theorists would argue that it would be unrealizable unless a lot of "wired connectivity," computers, and other modern technologies were widespread, which of course was not the case in ancient India. Thus, such widespread learning is even less plausible than the existence of a true university like Nalanda with diverse faculties of study. Yet, we must acknowledge that the sheer volume and scope of our classical literature (across various fields/doctrines) entails the past existence of a system of learning that is beyond the scope of today's imagination.
> I have a question as to what was the time of patanjali?
> it is difficult to believe that in first or second century BC there existed, as stated by Patanjali
>
> "(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {49/62} saptadvīpā vasumatī trayaḥ lokāḥ catvāraḥ vedāḥ sāṅgāḥ sarahasyāḥ bahudhā vibhinnāḥ ekaśatam adhvaryuśākhāḥ sahasravartmā sāmavedaḥ ekaviṃsatidhā bāhvr̥cyam navadhā ātharvaṇaḥ vedaḥ vākovākyam itihāsaḥ purāṇam vaidyakam iti etāvān śabdasya prayogaviṣayaḥ".
>
> is it possible in second century BC? how much time is needed for the loss of atleast nearly 19-20 of the rgvedic shakhas?
I don't know if an answer is possible to such a question. It may be too much to ask to calculate such precise historical details from mere linguistic analyses. (This is one of my difficulties with the recent fancy that academic Indology has had with philology.) It could however be said that the number of Vedic recensions was considerable even in relatively recent times (say the 16th or 17th centuries CE). The loss of the traditions has by no means been uniform, e.g., it appears that the SV traditions, at one time most numerous, were mostly lost first, and then the rest.
Besides, the very point that Patanjali is making in the context you cite, अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत्, is that one cannot dismiss words as unused (useless?), because there is a vast literature where they may have been used even if they do not appear to be in use currently. Thus Patanjali advises in the same context that we should make efforts to find out where such uncommon words have been used, and dismisses idle talk of words not being unused as साहसमात्र. From this it can certainly be inferred that Patanjali was in fact citing the *classical* counts of Vedic recensions, etc., rather than the sizes/counts of textual corpora that were in fact present before him at the time.
> I think Patanjali never makes any reference to Buddhism. does he? if not he must be pre-buddha. may be around 1500- 1000 BC. (not sure of exact dates) if this is accepted as his time what is the difficulty in ग्रामे ग्रामे काठकं कालापकं च प्रोच्यते? it is quite acceptable that when there was no alternative religion in that part of india.
Not having competing religions around is hardly a guarantee in this regard. Such learning is not widespread even today in Islamic and other countries where there are no other religions, for instance; such societies are indeed mostly illiterate.
Information in early Buddhist works also does not suggest that there was a single religion around at the time of the Buddha. There are lists of dozens of doctrines given that were said to be prevalent at that time.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> veeranarayaa
Shrisha Rao
> Besides, the very point that Patanjali is making in the context you cite, अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत्, is that one cannot dismiss words as unused (useless?), because there is a vast literature where they may have been used even if they do not appear to be in use currently. Thus Patanjali advises in the same context that we should make efforts to find out where such uncommon words have been used, and dismisses idle talk of words not being used as साहसमात्र. From this it can certainly be inferred that Patanjali was in fact citing the *classical* counts of Vedic recensions, etc., rather than the sizes/counts of textual corpora that were in fact present before him at the time.
This is actually under the next statement सर्वे देशान्तरे, which follows अप्रयुक्ते दीर्घसत्रवत्. However, the statements न च एते उपलभ्यन्ते, उपलब्धौ यत्नः क्रियताम्, and "सन्ति अप्रयुक्ताः" इति वचनं केवलं साहसमात्रम् invite our attention in this regard. It is not obvious that Patanjali would say न च एते उपलभ्यन्ते and उपलब्धौ यत्नः क्रियताम् if all the classical texts he mentioned had been available at the time.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
Veeranarayana Pandurangi
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {45/62} sarve khalu api ete śabdāḥ deśāntare prayujyante .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {46/62} na ca ete upalabhyante .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {47/62} upalabdhau yatnaḥ kriyatām .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {48/62} mahān hi śabdasya prayogaviṣayaḥ .
--
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
Veeranarayana Pandurangi
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {45/62} sarve khalu api ete śabdāḥ deśāntare prayujyante .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {46/62} na ca ete upalabhyante .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {47/62} upalabdhau yatnaḥ kriyatām .
(Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {48/62} mahān hi śabdasya prayogaviṣayaḥ .
subrahmanyam korada
'should one go to Svarga to find out these words' - Prof Veeranarayana
There are two kinds of people in terms of S'abdAnus'Asanam (Laghus'abdendus'ekhara , Ma~njUs.A etc) - Lks.yaikacaks.us.ka and Laks.an.aikacaks.us.ka .
The former refers to Panini, Katyayana , Patanjali etc - for whom all the Laks.yas ( examples ) are available due to Yogas'akti (already discussed two years ago) --
AvirbhUtaprakAs'AnAm anupaplutacetasAm I
atItAnAgataj!~nAnam pratyaks.Anna vis'is.yate II
atIndriyAn asamvedyAn pas'yantyArs.en.a caks.us.A I
ye bhAvAn , vacanam tes.Am nAnumAnena bAdhyate II Vakyapadiyam - Brahmakanda 37&38)
Also , under 'pr.s.odarAdIni yathopadis.t.am ' (6-3-109) this aspect is discussed .
So if one wants to find out as to whether a particular S'abda is right or wrong , used or not , then one should try the way of Trimunis , i.e. YogasAdhana .
This is applicable to YogAnus'Asana and Ayurveda also. Otherwise let someone do a matching work .
This is what was meant by Sasmkaracarya under ' s'AstrayonitvAt ' ( BrahmasUtram 1-1-3) - pAn.inyAdInAmiva .. vyAkaran.Adi ... j~neyaikades'a ... .
Laks.n.aikacaks.us.kas are people like us - we infer the 'laks.ya' thru the 'laks.n.am' . We do not have the capacity Panini etc. had had .
What about 'aprayukta' -- it is better not to use this term for obvious reasons . 'aprayukte dIrghasatravat' - since today such a S'bda is not seen one should not remark that such a S'abda is / was not there .
If it is said in the case of any word - na hi vaci.h antipara.h prayujyate (Bhasyam) , i.e. 'vacanti' , although it can be achieved thru Paninisutra , is not SAdhu - Patanjali etc say / clarify then that can be taken as an authority .
Pl see S'bdakaustubha also (Paspasa) .
Ars.aprayoga - means used in Smr.tis , Kalpa and other works done by R.s.is - chando vat kavaya.h kurvanti , na hi es.A is.t.i.h -- Bhasyam under 'yUstrAkhyau nadI ' ( 1-4-3)
dhanyo'smi
2011/10/18 Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veer...@gmail.com>
--
S P Narang
| Pradipa and Udyota are quite late. in this duration, a number of concepts in Buddhism developed which overpowered Hindu thought. The commentators sources may be different from those of Patanjali. Patanjali can be appreciated in the light of the conemporary Buddhism which was not very complicated like that of Dharmakirti and Candrakirti and Dinnaga. even poets like kalidasa are afraid of dinnaga in the Megh0. I do not see a special clue in the commentators that can be near the spirit of Patanjali. It is a matter of serious investigation for the historical Buddhism. Regards, spnarang --- On Thu, 10/13/11, PRADEEP VARMA <dr.prad...@gmail.com> wrote: |
|
Shrisha Rao
> patanjali is clear in saying that though these words are not used in this country, they are used in desantara. Q- A series goes like this.
> A. these words are used in other countries
> Q. we dont find them (in this conutry)?
> A. try to find them. there is very large area where these words are used. seven dvipas, three lokas, four vedas along with rahasyas divided into various types, 100 yajurvedas............ etc.
>
> sarve deśāntare .
> (Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {45/62} sarve khalu api ete śabdāḥ deśāntare prayujyante .
> (Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {46/62} na ca ete upalabhyante .
> (Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {47/62} upalabdhau yatnaḥ kriyatām .
> (Pas_12) KA_I,8.23-10.3 Ro_I,35-39 {48/62} mahān hi śabdasya prayogaviṣayaḥ .
> saptadvīpā vasumatī trayaḥ lokāḥ catvāraḥ vedāḥ sāṅgāḥ sarahasyāḥ bahudhā vibhinnāḥ ekaśatam adhvaryuśākhāḥ sahasravartmā sāmavedaḥ ekaviṃsatidhā bāhvr̥cyam navadhā ātharvaṇaḥ vedaḥ vākovākyam itihāsaḥ purāṇam vaidyakam iti etāvān śabdasya prayogaviṣayaḥ".
>
> it these are not available in his time he wont tell the opponent to find these sabas in these shakhas etc.
>
> here from Q-A series it is clear that na ca ete upalabhyante purvapaksha rather than siddhanta.
Beg your pardon, but though you are correct in the details, I do not find the overall reasoning very persuasive. Patanjali here is saying that the *words* are all to be found in other countries, and that the scope of usage of the words extends to the massive amounts of traditional literature including the various recensions of the Vedas, etc. However, he is making no promise, and he does not have to, that the various *recensions*, etc., are themselves found in other countries; to conclude so is quite invalid, and showing the error of such a conclusion formally using first-order logic would be an easy student exercise using semantic tableaux or such. To consider an informal example, let's consider that I say to someone that I knew a number of working people a while ago but I do not hear of them now, so I think they have all retired. Then that someone could respond to me that no, the people I have lost touch with are all working but in other countries, and I would have to look at the entire Forbes list of corporations to find where they might be working. This can be quite accurate, but does not constitute a guarantee that all the companies on the Forbes list are themselves around; some may well have gone out of business also. It is in general not a good idea to conclude a time-variant property (such as that of being extant) of a superset (like a text corpus) based on the same property existing in a proper subset (like a set of words), unless there is an ironclad guarantee that the property of the subset and superset cannot change independently.
> shall one go to svarga to find these words if it is held that these shakhas were not available in that time.
There however is no proven need to find every शाखा in order to find the words that Patanjali may be concerned with. For one thing, certain words can be found even though some source in which they occur is lost, because they occur in others. For instance, it is known from secondary sources that शं नो देवीरभीष्टये occurs in the पिप्पलाद-शाखा and तत् शं योरावृणीमहे occurs in the बाष्कल-शाखा of the RV. However, even though these शाखाs are lost, one would hardly regard a word like वृणीमहे as unused, because it is also found in other sources. The fact that a word exists is no guarantee that *all* sources where it could be found also do (only that there is *at least one* extant source for it), and therefore, one cannot conclude the simultaneous existence of all sources simply because some subset of words of interest did/do continue to exist.
On the original topic of this thread, the date of Patanjali, the only relevant material I am personally aware of is the Collected Works of Sir R.G. Bhandarkar, vol. 1 (1933), particularly pp. 108 ff. This is available online also:
http://oudl.osmania.ac.in/bitstream/handle/OUDL/2428/218867_Collected_Works_Of_Sir_R_G_Bhandarkar_Vol_I.pdf?sequence=2
Bhandarkar thinks Patanjali lived in Pataliputra and "probably wrote the third chapter of his Bhasya between 144 BC and 142 BC." I leave to others to discuss whether, and to what extent, this is considered accurate as per the latest research.
Regards,
Shrisha Rao
> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Veeranarayana Pandurangi
--
अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि।
ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः।
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Hello All,
I do have attached Patanjali life history and his works which collected from one the magzine. It is in Sanskrit. It may be useful.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bytwr8HZ8S-GYXhyV2lfb0ludE0
Thanks,
Jaya Prakash
e-mail: Jayaprak...@gmail.com
ph:8105879200
Ajit Gargeshwari
Jaya Prakash Ji,
You have sent a quick reply for a question posted on October 13, 2011 Today is August 14, 2016
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Dear Prof Deshpande Ji,
This is from Chakrvarti, Ram Prasad “Patanjali As He Reveals Himself in The Mahabhashya” Indian Historical Quarterly Vol 2 1926: Pages 67-86, 262-289, 464-494, 738-760
The complete volume is available at DLI
Please See Panini A Survey of His Research by George Cardona Page 35
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Linguistic Speculations of The Hindus by Prabhat Chandra Chakravarti is an independent book. This book is also available at DLI. The PDF enclosed Sri Jaya Prakasji are articles of Prabhat Chandra Chakravarti which appeared in Indian Historical Quarterly Vol 2 1926: Pages 67-86, 262-289, 464-494, 738-760.
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Madhav Deshpande
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2016 9:17 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re:
time of patanjali
Dear Ajit-ji,
Thanks for the reference. However, the last page of the pdf is signed off by Probhatchandra Chakravarti, and the article itself, footnotes, refers to "my work: Linguistic Speculations of the Hindus", which is authored by Probhatchandra Chakravarti.
Madhav Deshpande
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 8:25 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Prof Deshpande Ji,
This is from Chakrvarti, Ram Prasad “Patanjali As He Reveals Himself in The Mahabhashya” Indian Historical Quarterly Vol 2 1926: Pages 67-86, 262-289, 464-494, 738-760
The complete volume is available at DLI
Please See Panini A Survey of His Research by George Cardona Page 35
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
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rniyengar
Jaya Prakash
On Thursday, October 13, 2011 at 3:12:37 PM UTC+5:30, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote:
R. N. iyengar
Madhav Deshpande
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shankara
shankara
From: R. N. iyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, 15 August 2016 6:57 PM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of patanjali
RNI
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sunil bhattacharjya
skb
Madhav Deshpande
sunil bhattacharjya
rniyengar
Thanks to Prof.Deshpande for commenting on my post and for further elucidating the commentary on Gururatnamālā by Ātmabodha. Thanks to Sri Shankara for providing the original text of the Pañcaprakaraṇī. My interest is about the Greek names mentioned by both the author and the commentator. Sadāśivabrahmendra, I believe is same as the famous music composer (the immortal mānasa sañcara re; bhajare gopālam etc). He mentions in verse 10 (p20) the name of Apollonius only. However the commentator quite correctly knows the names of Prāvṛti the Śaka king and Dāmis (the Assyrian) who accompanied Apollonius to Takṣaśila. The commentator Ātmabodha on p.89 of the above book gives the date of his commentary as netrābdhirasacandreṣu yātsu śāliśakeṣu.
This, if I am correct, corresponds to ~ 1720 AD. It follows both the author (c1600) and the commentator knew about the visit of Apollonius to India. Some reliable details of this should have been available to them. I wonder what could have been these indigenous historical literary sources for this tradition which was carried on for nearly 1700 years ?
I looked into the Patañjalicaritam cited by M.Hiriyanna, which I guess should be later than the above works. I could not locate any reference to the Greeks. Scholars may like to comment.
RNI
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shankara
shankara
From: rniyengar <narayana...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, 16 August 2016 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of patanjali
N.R.Joshi
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Aug 16, 2016
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Harshada Sawarkar
Harshada Sawarkar
Mumbai
Madhav Deshpande
Harshada Sawarkar
Harshada Sawarkar
University of Mumbai.
Harshada Sawarkar
sunil bhattacharjya
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
sushamA and the gururatnamAlA are a different matter, because they claim to provide chronological details, but reveal themselves as being more or less fanciful accounts, which cannot be substantiated even for relatively recent historical times, let alone for one or two thousand years ago.
Overall, my conclusion is that when Keith doubted the antecedents of a Sanskrit verse referring to Apollonius and Iarches, he had really very good reasons for doing so! Even TMP Mahadevan, in his slim monograph on gauDapAda, finds it necessary to cast doubt upon the authorship and time of composition of the gururatnamAlA and sushamA.
Best regards,
Vidyasankar
Ajit Gargeshwari
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
rniyengar
Madhav Deshpande
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sunil bhattacharjya
Surendra Mohan Mishra
Surendramohan Mishra
Dept of Sanskrit,Pali & Prakrit
Faculty of Indic Studies,Kurukshetra University
KURUKSHETRA-136 119,Haryana,INDIA
Tel : (Off.)01744 238410(extn.)2504
(Mob.)098960 86579;(Res.)01744-238567
Blogs : http://surendrashastram.blogspot.com
http://surendra-shaastram.blogspot.com
Madhav Deshpande
Madhav Deshpande
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,Thank you very much for your useful suggestions. The notion that Candraśarmā was the pūrvāśrama name of Govindabhagavatpāda is something new to me, and reference to him by the Paramacharya of Kanchi is also interesting. I wonder if either of you can give me some bibliographic information for these references. It is very likely that the references to Candraśarmā in the commentary on the Gururatnamālā has some traditional sources. Whether this reference to Candraśarmā is a conflation with the Candrācārya referred to by Bhartṛhari as being responsible for the revival of the Mahābhāṣya is a different question. In any case, the belief within the Advaitic tradition that Gauḍapāda and Candraśarmā alias Govindabhagavatpāda were somehow related to the revival of Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya is an important indicator of the value placed on the Mahābhāṣya within the Advaitic tradition. This may also be an indirect way of distancing from the Śabdādvaita of Bhartṛhari (rejected by Śaṅkara), but claiming the Mahābhāṣya itself to be within the Advaitic lineage. These are just my speculations, but seem to suggest to me likely avenues of future research.Madhav DeshpandeAnn Arbor, Michigan, USA(Currently in Palo Alto, California)
Madhav Deshpande
by
V. A. DEVASENAPATI
M.A., Ph.D.
1
To be known to all posterity as the preceptor of a world teacher – Jagadguru Sri Sankaracharya – is indeed a rare honour. It evokes our sense of wonder. When we remember that Isvara Himself was born as Sri Sankara for the spiritual rejuvenation of Hinduism, our wonder knows no bounds. But it may be asked whether a world teacher – especially if He is none other than the Supreme Lord Himself – needs a teacher. The answer is that the world will learn more readily by example rather than precept. The need for a teacher, especially in spiritual matters, is generally recognised. It is he who dispels the darkness of ignorance and frees us from all sorrow. He quickens our understanding and makes us see either what we had not seen before or what we had seen all too dimly. He makes the effulgence of wisdom which is latent in us shine forth in all its splendour. To make us realise this need for guru, He who is the preceptor of all preceptors set an example by Himself sitting at the feet of a guru. He wants us to realise that one who has not learned to obey is not fit to command and that one who has not himself sat at the feet of a worthy teacher, cannot become a teacher himself.
The preceptor who enjoys this honour of being the preceptor of Sri Sankara is Sri Govinda Bhagavatpada. In his purvasrama, he was Chandra Sarma, a handsome Brahmin of Kashmir. Yearning to hear Patanjali’s exposition of the vyakarana at Chidambaram, he was coming to the South. On the bank of the River Narmada, he saw Gaudapada who under a curse from Patanjali for leaving the place of instruction without permission had become a Brahmaraksas. Patanjali had decreed that the curse would be lifted when Gaudapada found a disciple fit enough to learn the vyakarana. It so happened that till the arrival of Chandra Sarma, every scholar who came that way went wrong in giving the ending of a tricky word and was eaten up by the Brahmaraksas. Chandra Sarma proved an exception. He gave the correct ending. The time for the lifting of the curse had come. Gaudapada asked Chandra Sarma where he was going. On being told that he was going to Chidambaram to learn at the feet of Patanjali, Gaudapadasaid that the exposition at Chidambaram was over and that he would himself teach the young man. But the condition was that without getting down from the tree on which the Brahmaraksas sat, and without sleeping, the disciple should learn what he was taught as quickly as possible. Having no access to writing materials, Chandra Sarma made a deep scratch in his thigh and with the blood that oozed out wrote on the leaves of the tree all that he was taught. The instruction continued night and day without food and sleep for nine days. On the completion of his instruction, he gathered up the leaves and tying them up into a bundle, took leave of his teacher.
According to the Patanjali-vijaya, a work by Ramabhadra Dikshita written about 200 years ago, Chandra Sarma is none other than Patanjali himself. Feeling that Gaudapada was not likely to secure a suitable disciple and thus might have to languish under his curse, Patanjali took pity on him and was himself born as Chandra Sarma. This was but one more of the many roles that Patanjali played. Patanjali is none other than Adisesha. Among the roles he played, those of Lakshmana and Balarama may be remembered.
To continue the narrative, Chandra Sarma walked some distance with his precious bundle. Overpowered by sleep and hunger, he slept for a while. On waking, he found that a sheep had eaten away part of the leaves in his bundle. He took the bundle with the remaining leaves and on reaching Ujjain, he lapsed into a state of unconsciousness on the pial of a Vaisya. The daughter of the Vaisya who was struck by the radiant face of Chandra Sarma found him in this state of unconsciousness on account of complete starvation and exhaustion. She fed him by applying on his body curd rice. The nourishment entered his body through the pores of the skin and Chandra Sarma woke up. He wanted to resume his journey. But Vaisya wanted him to marry his daughter who had saved his life. On finding him disinclined for marriage, the Vaisyatook Chandra Sarma to the king. The king who was favourably impressed by the striking appearance of Chandra Sarma wanted him to marry his own daughter. He sent for his minister to consult him in order to see whether there was sanction in the Dharma Sastra for such a marriage. It so happened that the minister himself had a daughter; and so he was keen on giving her in marriage to this stranger. Thus, Chandra Sarma had to marry all the three girls. He stayed with them till each of them had a son by him. Then he continued his journey to find his teacher – Gaudapada, from whom he had learnt the vyakarana. Gaudapada had become a sannyasin and was in Badarikasrama. Chandra Sarma also become a sannyasin, receiving diksha from his preceptor and henceforth came to be known as Govinda Bhagavatpada.
While Govinda Bhagavatpada was with his teacher at Badarikasrama, sage Vyasa, the author of the Brahma-sutra visited them. He asked Govinda Bhagavatpada to go to the bank of the River Narmada and await the arrival of Sri Sankara who was the incarnation of LordSiva. The purpose of this incarnation was to write a commentary on the Brahma-sutra. Prior to that, Sri Sankara was to be accepted formally as a disciple by Govinda Bhagavatpada. Govindha Bhagavatpada came to the bank of the River Narmada. It is significant that Gaudapada was his teacher both before and after he became a sannyasin. It is significant again that to play the role of the teacher he was at the foot of the same tree on which he had sat earlier to receive instruction from Gaudapada.
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,Thank you very much for your useful suggestions. The notion that Candraśarmā was the pūrvāśrama name of Govindabhagavatpāda is something new to me, and reference to him by the Paramacharya of Kanchi is also interesting. I wonder if either of you can give me some bibliographic information for these references. It is very likely that the references to Candraśarmā in the commentary on the Gururatnamālā has some traditional sources. Whether this reference to Candraśarmā is a conflation with the Candrācārya referred to by Bhartṛhari as being responsible for the revival of the Mahābhāṣya is a different question. In any case, the belief within the Advaitic tradition that Gauḍapāda and Candraśarmā alias Govindabhagavatpāda were somehow related to the revival of Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya is an important indicator of the value placed on the Mahābhāṣya within the Advaitic tradition. This may also be an indirect way of distancing from the Śabdādvaita of Bhartṛhari (rejected by Śaṅkara), but claiming the Mahābhāṣya itself to be within the Advaitic lineage. These are just my speculations, but seem to suggest to me likely avenues of future research.Madhav DeshpandeAnn Arbor, Michigan, USA(Currently in Palo Alto, California)
Ajit Gargeshwari
Please see this Thread from another mailing list
http://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2012-February/030966.html
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Madhav Deshpande
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2016 10:42 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of
patanjali
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,
On the website [http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html], I find the following statement in relation to Govinda Bhagavatpāda and Gauḍapāda.
"The yogi, Sri Govinda Bhagavatpada, recipient of the Mahabhashya from the lips of Sri Gaudapada, asked from within the cave, who was standing near the cave."
Do the various Śaṅkaravijayas describe this connection of these two Ācāryas to the Mahābhāṣya of Patañjali? Being away from my home library, I cannot check the texts of the Śaṅkaravijayas. This connection or at least a belief in this connection of the Advaitic teachers before Śaṅkara to the Mahābhāṣya of Patañjali seems most interesting to me.
Madhav Deshpande
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
(currently in Palo Alto, California)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,
Thank you very much for your useful suggestions. The notion that Candraśarmā was the pūrvāśrama name of Govindabhagavatpāda is something new to me, and reference to him by the Paramacharya of Kanchi is also interesting. I wonder if either of you can give me some bibliographic information for these references. It is very likely that the references to Candraśarmā in the commentary on the Gururatnamālā has some traditional sources. Whether this reference to Candraśarmā is a conflation with the Candrācārya referred to by Bhartṛhari as being responsible for the revival of the Mahābhāṣya is a different question. In any case, the belief within the Advaitic tradition that Gauḍapāda and Candraśarmā alias Govindabhagavatpāda were somehow related to the revival of Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya is an important indicator of the value placed on the Mahābhāṣya within the Advaitic tradition. This may also be an indirect way of distancing from the Śabdādvaita of Bhartṛhari (rejected by Śaṅkara), but claiming the Mahābhāṣya itself to be within the Advaitic lineage. These are just my speculations, but seem to suggest to me likely avenues of future research.
Madhav Deshpande
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
(Currently in Palo Alto, California)
*****
Surendramohan Mishra
Dept of Sanskrit,Pali & Prakrit
Faculty of Indic Studies,Kurukshetra University
KURUKSHETRA-136 119,Haryana,INDIA
Tel : (Off.)01744 238410(extn.)2504
(Mob.)098960 86579;(Res.)01744-238567
Blogs : http://surendrashastram.blogspot.com
http://surendra-shaastram.blogspot.com
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*****
Surendramohan Mishra
Dept of Sanskrit,Pali & Prakrit
Faculty of Indic Studies,Kurukshetra University
KURUKSHETRA-136 119,Haryana,INDIA
Tel : (Off.)01744 238410(extn.)2504
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Vidyasankar Sundaresan
The general tradition about govinda bhagavatpAda in all the known Sankaravijaya texts is that he was an avatAra of patanjali. Or that he was an avatAra of AdiSesha, and that patanjali was an earlier avatAra of AdiSesha too. In some of these texts, the emphasis in the description is on patanjali as the yogasUtrakAra. In others, it is the vyAkaraNa mahAbhAshyakAra. Of course, none of the texts refer only to yoga to the exclusion of vyAkaraNa or vice versa.
Giving a specific name candragupta as the birth name of govinda bhagavatpAda is unique to the patanjalicarita. I haven't seen such a reference in any of the other texts that set out to describe the life of Sankara. And this candragupta of the patanjalicarita gets transformed to candraSarman at a later time. Then again, the references to gauDapAda, govinda and Sankara are all found only in the final, eighth chapter of that kAvya. The first seven chapters have no place for these advaita vedAnta teachers. I, for one, find that transition rather odd and abrupt, and the possible equation of this candragupta/SarmA with candrAcArya of vyAkaraNa as well as with govinda bhagavat of advaita seems rather forced.
One can conjecture various reasons for how these identifications and transformations came to be, but I'd rather not get into the details of my own thoughts about it at this time, on this forum. I've already said much in the past, on other forums.
Best regards,
Vidyasankar
Madhav Deshpande
BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
May be I am raising a side tracking issue on this debate < Time of Patanjali> which has touched the relation of < Vyakarana- Schoalrship > and < Advaita –Philsophy > :: Language Grammar and Mystic -Philosophy – transcending the nameability and describability of an entity :: Avaachyataa – Anirvacahneeya – Naama Roopa ateeta >.
These two ‘side-questions’ are triggered by the note by Professor Deshpande < but seem to suggest to me likely avenues of future research > where a clarity needs to emerge on direction to engage eastern and western linguistic study in the domains of Rules of Language usage and Application, distinguished from the ‘ Advanced discourse on Philosophy of Language, leading to language bind and boundary Transcendence ( = A – nirvachaneeyataa) ’ ; more so in the context of ‘Samskrutham’.
Side questions -1 : ( On Prof: Madhav DeshPande: , the belief within the Advaitic tradition that Gauḍapāda and Candraśarmā alias Govindabhagavatpāda were somehow related to the revival of Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya is an important indicator of the value placed on the Mahābhāṣya within the Advaitic tradition. )
Vyakarana-Shaastra, as Vedanga, is a unified grammar approach to understand the sacred spiritual linguistics ( Language Focus - Primary) of languages present in two major classes of works, namely Veda-Shaastra and Kaavya-Shaastra. Vedanga Vyakarana is presenting a Unified Document and Approach for Learning Language -Tradition of Chandas and Bhashaa , for Spiritual and Sacrificial usage ( Adhyatma = Brahma Chintana and Adhi-Yajna = Karma –Yajna Chintana ) .
The plan in Vyakarana, seems to be, to work around and present a means to understand words already in – use in the texts of tradition; and further generate as needed proper word-designators for a contextual application. ( Vibhaktim kurvanti) . It is generating a ‘Naama as Shabda /Pada for use in a Vaakya’ for ‘ Yaajnika Tradition usage’. It is to connect pada with artha: ‘Roopa ( Aakruti-Kriyaa- Jaati-Samjnaa / Phala )’ – Truly and Totally through a ‘Yoga’ ( = unifying) process for a purpose.
The entire mechanics is one of ‘Shabda –Nirmiti’ – Art of Word-Architecture, Word-Sculpting (Shabda-Shilpa) for a purpose (Viniyoga).
The audit of ‘Saadhutva –Shishta Sampradaaya’ is a standard of Samskruth Grammarians. The philosophy of Grammar marks the boundary on working with ‘What falls within the realm of Vaak’ and What falls beyond the realm of ‘Vaak’; the clarity of distinction between Vachaneeyataa < Expression – Articulation - Naming – Designation > and Anirvachaneeyataa -Transcendence.
(Advaita) Darshana Shaastra –as Vedanta, is a specific flavor of understanding the essence of three works presenting three paths in two language modes for a unified goal ( = Pra-Sthana- Traya : uses Language modes of (Chandas and Bhashaa) . This is transcending the ‘Vedanga’ boundary to explore ‘ What falls beyond the realm of Vaak’. Such unified construction of a philosophy from a meta-physical document using meta-language needs appropriate skills of grammar-tradition as ‘Vedanga’ .
‘Vedanga’ understands world-languages/ Human Social languages in a specific context and paradigm : Daivee and Maanushee . ( Daiveem vaacham ajanayanta devaah ; taam Vishva-roopaah pashavao vadanti). Here ‘Deva is Not ‘God’ and certainly not ‘God in Abrahamic theology and scriptures ; pashu is not animal. The four fold-layered structure of such language is presented and fourth phase of it is called ‘Human usage language’ (Tureeyam Vaachah). Spirituality (Adhyaatma) is an integral part of this language – discussion. The primary units of language (Varna-Akshara / Naada) are deeply connected with ‘Brahma’ – the ultimate unique postulate of Vednata. ( Gita 3-15: karma brahmodbhavam viddhi brahmakshara-samudbhavam tasmat sarva-gatam brahma nityam yajne pratisthitam.) The premise in ‘Vednaga –Bhashaa Chintana’ is built around the anchor of upanishad : Yato Vaacho nivartante, apraapya manasaa saha , tadeva Brahma tvam viddhi , nedam yat –idam – upAsate’ . This is the ‘ Mantra –Practice Instruction. If some thing is not nameable, but still can be sensed and engaged ( Asti – BhAti , Jaanaami tam eva/ evam anu-bhAntam) as real personal experience which is NOT an illusion or hallucination , experienced as ‘Sat- Cht- Aanadna’ in a ‘ Time –Transcendent and Time-Permeating ( Kalaateeta – Sarva-Kaalika) , how does one write a ‘Shaastra’ of such a ‘Darshana’ ? How does one teach it ? How does one debate it ? Using what means ? A challenge of explaining and expressing ‘meta-language’ in social language idiom ?
This ‘paradigm of language of Shaastra ’ is totally outside the boxed thinking of ‘Academic Linguistics/ Applied Linguistics ’ used in ‘ Indology. The scope of definition used in these modern disciplines would be called ‘ Saamaajika Vyaavaharika –Prakrutha / Mlecchita Bhashaa, Jaati-Bhashaa / Desha -bhashaa’ in the parlance of Samskruth traditional studies.
In this context, a thorough knowledge of ‘Shada-Shaastra’ (Patanajli Vyakarana ) and ‘Shaastra –Bhashaa’ and ‘Yoga-Bhashaa’ may have been considered a ‘ Pre-qualification’ for a student before admission to the further advanced instructions of ‘Shabda –Brahma –Darshana Shaastra where Vak-Yoga pedagogy and methodology ’ is needed. This is Yoga way of studying Samskrutham beyond ‘ using Bhashaa aspect of Samskrutham for localized contextualized conversation ( = Sambhaashnam). It is clarity in the use of language for a social purpose for conversation and a Spiritual exploration of ‘ Communion/ Union/ Yoga as Mantra-Brahmana). This line of argument and debate-discourse is a part of the discussion and objections made on ‘Advaita’ in many ‘Vaadas’ addressing the word ‘Brahma-Anirvachaneeya’ part of commentary and attacking ‘Maayaa –Tatva’ as ‘ illusion’. In reality it is ‘ Shabda-vichara –charchaa’ and not ‘Shabda-Brahma- Jijnyasa’.
Then, in this context, would it be right for me to infer the statement in Shankara vijaya as a recollection of the traditional standard : Knowledge of Vedanga-Vyakarana is a pre-qualification before entering the portals of Vedanta ; Patanjali connection to Advaita Guru-Shishya Sampradaya ? The question by Guru of Shankara seems to seek an assurance that the seeker had a clear understanding of the ‘Shabda –Shaastra’ prerequisites before learning ‘Shabda-Brahma Tattva –Darshana’ practice ?
As far as I am aware, within Shankara sampradaya, the insistence on ‘Sarva- Shaastra –Abhyasa’ before ‘ Sannyasa –Deekshaa’ is insisted upon. This is to ensure sufficient physical, mental, social and practice-based maturity before treading the path for a ‘ position of Spiritual leadership = Sannyasa Deekshaa ’. To understand ‘Acharya Shankaras message in Bhaja Govindam’, to know the last stop of ‘ Dukrunj - Karane’ , one needs to have a full engagement with Vyakarana which teaches what all needs to transform ‘Du-Krunj Karane’ to ‘ karomi’ in Samkalpa and ‘Arjunas commitment of ‘Karishye Vachanam Tava ’ to Sri Krishna . The wisdom of Bhagavatpada in Bhaja –Govindam is not to reject Vyakarana without full engagement with it.
Side questions -2 : On < web site statement related : Śaṅkaravijayas describe this connection of these two Ācāryas to the Mahābhāṣya of Patañjali? >
The works like Shankara Vijaya have an unspecified mix of history and faith; and aim to endorse a ‘ faith tradition continuity’ beyond a desire of functioning like ‘Shaastra –Itihasasa – PramaNa- grantha’.
How right are we in contemplating ‘ Advaita Tradition-Shankara history- bridges’ using such works ? The tracing of < belief continuity part> needs to have additional support from < Shaastra- Paramparaa and Scrutiny of the person chosen for continuity of succession to the tradition>.
I do understand that this is a slippery and socially sensitive issue for open debate, arising out of the link between < Advaita and Samkrutha- Vyakarana –Patanjali Standards > .
I will raise the question and leave it at that ( for private communications) . The question, for all ‘Vedanta Sampradaya instituitions would be this :
Do we see foot-prints of ‘Shakara Vijaya Sampradaya’ reflected in Practice footprints as the guidelines and Standards adapted in ‘grooming and selecting the succession candidate ‘ Shihsya ’ by ‘ current holding - guru-peetha-adhipati’ to carry on the torch-light of tradition ? In the current period, which ‘Guru-Kul’ is providing the relevant training for grooming a ‘ Peetha-adhi-pati and a Sannyasi’? A Saffron – Robed Person for spreading the message anchored to ‘ Vyasa- Granthaavali’ in Samskrutham ? Will the ‘Sarvajna-Peetham’ occupation be decided by selection or election or invitation ? How True and Truant are the practices in various Vyasa - Sampradaya institutions in grooming their successors for ‘ Yati-Dharma / Shaastra sampradaaya rakshaa’ and ‘ Moksha -Sannyasa Yoga’ responsibilities in line with last chapter of Srimad Bhagavad-Gita ? Do we have a 21st century community – in India or abroad who love to have such ‘ Personnel’ in our times ? What needs to be done – Kim Karaneeyam ?
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Madhav Deshpande
Sent: Friday, 19 August, 2016 1:12 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of patanjali
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,
On the website [http://www.kamakoti.org/peeth/origin.html], I find the following statement in relation to Govinda Bhagavatpāda and Gauḍapāda.
"The yogi, Sri Govinda Bhagavatpada, recipient of the Mahabhashya from the lips of Sri Gaudapada, asked from within the cave, who was standing near the cave."
Do the various Śaṅkaravijayas describe this connection of these two Ācāryas to the Mahābhāṣya of Patañjali? Being away from my home library, I cannot check the texts of the Śaṅkaravijayas. This connection or at least a belief in this connection of the Advaitic teachers before Śaṅkara to the Mahābhāṣya of Patañjali seems most interesting to me.
Madhav Deshpande
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
(currently in Palo Alto, California)
On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:
Dear Sunilji and Surendraji,
Thank you very much for your useful suggestions. The notion that Candraśarmā was the pūrvāśrama name of Govindabhagavatpāda is something new to me, and reference to him by the Paramacharya of Kanchi is also interesting. I wonder if either of you can give me some bibliographic information for these references. It is very likely that the references to Candraśarmā in the commentary on the Gururatnamālā has some traditional sources. Whether this reference to Candraśarmā is a conflation with the Candrācārya referred to by Bhartṛhari as being responsible for the revival of the Mahābhāṣya is a different question. In any case, the belief within the Advaitic tradition that Gauḍapāda and Candraśarmā alias Govindabhagavatpāda were somehow related to the revival of Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya is an important indicator of the value placed on the Mahābhāṣya within the Advaitic tradition. This may also be an indirect way of distancing from the Śabdādvaita of Bhartṛhari (rejected by Śaṅkara), but claiming the Mahābhāṣya itself to be within the Advaitic lineage. These are just my speculations, but seem to suggest to me likely avenues of future research.
Madhav Deshpande
Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
(Currently in Palo Alto, California)
*****
Surendramohan Mishra
Dept of Sanskrit,Pali & Prakrit
Faculty of Indic Studies,Kurukshetra University
KURUKSHETRA-136 119,Haryana,INDIA
Tel : (Off.)01744 238410(extn.)2504
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sunil bhattacharjya
As Govindapada was a brahmin I wonder how can there be any attachment of " -Gupta" to his name. Is it possible that some transcriber could have tried to change "Sarma" to "Gupta" ?
Sivasenani Nori
In this context, the book Parmarthasara (https://archive.org/details/AdisesaParamarthasara_201306), an early manual of Advaita in Aryas, by Adisesha might be of some interest. Based on evidence within the text, some hold that this is later than Mandukyakarika. Nagesa quotes liberally from this work in Manjusha.
This fits in with a disciple of Gaudapada, an avatara of AdiSesha, teaching Advaita - though I never heard such a conjecture earlier (nor am I making one here - as I said, it might be of interest, that's all).
Regards
N. Siva Senani
Surendra Mohan Mishra
sunil bhattacharjya
As regards the dating of Gaudapada, any suppositions on the date of the text of Adishesha's Paramarthasara will be a weak proposition. At best one may consider that Abhinavagupta's time is known and it is also known that his (Abhinavagupta's) Paramarththere is a Shaivite adaptation of Adishesha's Paramarthasara.
rniyengar
Dear Vidyashankar,
After reading your well researched and carefully argued article on Śankaravijaya texts, I can only exclaim, confusion confounded! You are not partial to either party, but you have presented data with eye on details. I was aware of the controversies, but not of the broad picture and its possible influence on Indian traditions. Rāmānujācārya (1017-1137 CE, luckily no controversy about this figure) is also considered to be the incarnation of Ādiśeṣa and in fact his given name was Lakṣmaṇa. You may know that there is a temple at Thondnur near Melkote where a relief shows the Ācārya as Ādiśeṣa sitting behind a screen answering his numerous opponents (Jains?) simultaneously. When I read the Patañjali-carita, which belongs to a later date, I could not miss this parallelism. I had not known till I read your paper that there is a Sanskrit work that holds all the three ācāryas to have been contemporaries! Ignoring all such fanciful stories, still I wonder why the Kāñci maṭha (even if called Kumbhakoṇam) parampara is longer than that of Sṛṅgeri? My interest is more in the ancient (BCE-CE) transition period, rather than in the recent past, even though chronology sequencing may be rather hazy. Without going into the various conflicting claims; Śankarācārya having established a monastery at Kāñci and attaining Mukti there sounds realistic. In the 7-8th Cent Kāñci was at its peak in many fronts. It was the border town between the Sanskritic and the Tamil cultural traditions. Buddhists and Jains had strong roots at Kāñci from c 400 BCE contemporaneous with Vedic/Vedāntic schools, if not earlier. Now coming back to the historical claims of K-Maṭha going back to 482BCE and that of Śṛ-Maṭha reaching only 820 AD as shown on their respective web sites, one needs to ponder whether both can be reconciled, instead of brushing aside one in preference to the other. Since Śankarācārya’s date is 8-9th Cent, Kāñci monastic order must have had some strong reason to trace its origin to BCE period. Is it probable an already existing monastery (Vedic/Bauddha) was brought into the Advaitic fold in the above period? This is of course a speculation, but from available evidences can such a possibility be denied?
I have read in some history books that Patanjali in his Mahābhāṣya refers to Kāñcipuraka to mean a person from that city. Also he seems to have remarked that southerners are fond of Taddhita words even when not necessary (I am no scholar of Pāṇini and Patanjali. I apologise for any mistaken information and request BVP scholars for corrections). If legends are a way to keep traditions alive (matter of fact history is quickly forgotten!) it seems quite reasonable for the grammar tradition to have reflected back from south to north. Since there does not seem to be any academic necessity for the Kāñci Vedānta school to trace its relation to Patanjali, some real cultural links might be hidden in fossilised fashion.
Two minor points: a) Gupta may not be a definitive marker of caste. Chāṇakya/Kauṭalya was known as Viṣṇugupta although he was a Brahmin. b) The royal emblem of Mysore Wodeyars was/is the double headed eagle and not the boar.
Best regards
RN Iyengar
Madhav Deshpande
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Nagaraj Paturi
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sunil bhattacharjya
Kadakshe dayardhraam, kare gnana mudhraam,
Kalabhir vinidhram, kalapai subhadhraam,
Purasthreem vinidhraam, pura sthunga bhadram,
Bhaje Saradambhaam ajasram madhambham., 2This Kudali-Shringeri math is situated at a distance of about 12 KM from the Shimoga town, the head-quarters of the Shimoga district, in Karnataka This math claims itself to be the original Shringeri math and the Kanchi math too recognizes this math's guruparampara, going back to the 5th century BCE. It is interesting to note that the Sringeri math and the Kudali Shringeri math both have the Vidyashankara temple at their premises and both the maths claim Vidyashanka Tirtha to be a mathadhipati in their maths at contemporary times. This also seems to indicate the age-old relationship between these two maths. One may consider this as an added point while looking at the date Adi Shankara.If all the mathas come together and earnestly try to look for the real date of Adi Shankara afresh, that too using the historical information combined with calendrical and astronomical studies, and not depending on the hagiographical details alone, it is quite possible that we myy arrive at the true date pf Adi Shankara. I feel that it is also worth considering the astronomical studies of Prof. Narahari Achar from the Memphis University on the date of Adi Shankara.
BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
An interesting thread with issues coming together to trace the history –time line of Advaita personalities and footprints of Advaita tradition used by different ‘ Peethams/ Paramparaa’, which seem apparently irreconcilable. There is a need to revisit and rewrite ‘ A consistent and reconciled history of all the peethams and traditions which would project a seamless understanding of ‘Advaita’ Tradition from a reference point of ‘Gita’ and ‘Brahma Sutras’ going back to some 3000 BCE ! Way before Patanjali , Claimed date of 1500 BCE for Shankara and Buddha by some schools. A period way before ‘ Greek intervention’ ( unless Mahabharata history itself leads to Greeks in India –Kurukshetra ).
There are some larger issues with which these need to be linked and addressed. I articulate these without taking sides and look forward for scholarly inputs.
1. Looking at the ‘Advaita Darshana – Acharya –Peethams History’ in the expanded frame : Additional input regarding Acharya Shankara’s date related : The Veerasaiva Panchacharya Tradition propounds Acharya Shankara was initiated by Siddha-Yogi Renuka Maharshi, who ‘ emerged in a manner of self-manifestation’ from a ‘ Lingam’; and initiated Acharya Shankara to the secrets of Vedic Worship. This is a live tradition, held strongly by the ‘ Panditaaraadhya / Jagadguru Renukacharya paramparaa - Veerasaiva community’ and anchored to Sri Sailam Jyotirlinga Peetham, at Andhra-Pradesh and certain other parts of Karnataka.
http://www.rambhapuripeetha.info/history-of-panchapeethas.htm ;
Article in the link - http://jssonline.org/jss/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/Sharanapatha-July-Dec2012.pdf
If this connection is to be traced per claims, the landscape of this debate would stretch beyond ‘ resources used by Shankara peethams for historicity’ and the connection of Karnataka, Tamil Nadu, Siddhar tradition, Ujjain and Kashmir become relevant.
2. Understanding ‘Abhinavagupta’ as a Person and Acharya, properly: The connection of Kashmir Saivism / Abhinava Gupta is another contentious issue. The portrayal of Abhinavagupta as a tantric, in resources used by Shankara –Peetham is not resonating with the known history of Abhinavgupta as a lochana-kaara and author of several works on Saivism flavor of Advaita, even though the flavor of explanation may look different ! It would be interesting to note that Vaishnvadvaita uses almost a mirror imaged model of this explanation to explain vedic tradition. Both are locked to Aagama while Vedanta schools are locked directly to Prasthana –Traya.
All these schools are built on the foundational criticality of Samskrutham Language Scholarship by ‘Panini-Patanajli - anchor’ along with its ‘Mantra-Yoga’ Flavors as ‘Yoga-Samskrutham’ linked to ‘Vedanga –Shadanga Samskrutham Education ( = Vak-Yoga Sampradaya)’.( So is the case with Buddhists and Jains also.)
3. Understanding the anchor of Kashmir based ‘Shaaradaa Devi’ to worship at Sringeri’ in the sloka: Namaste Shaaradaa Devi, Kashmeera –Pura –Vaasinee : What is the importance of this link beyond a faith of ‘Goddess walking down to South from North’ ? How the worship of ‘Sri Maha-Rajnee’ at Kashmir and Sri Shaaradaa are connected through the first line of Lalitaa worship and Sri –Vidyaa Tradiitons? The first line of Lalitaa ashtottara reads : Srimaataa – Sri maharajnee ,srimat simhasaneswari’ . The Same Sharadaa is worshipped as ‘Sri Mahaa Rajnee’ in Kashmir. At Sringeri, she is goddess of learning. At Kashmir, she is the benevolent queen.
Surely, There is a need to revisit and rewrite ‘ A consistent and reconciled history of all the peethams and traditions’ ; and this may be one of the major reasons to fight a Battle: Sanskrit ! and Swadesi History of Masters of Religions and Religious Institutions ?! That would also help to resolve whether the Samskruth word <Gupta> would mean <Secret, embedded> OR < a tag name to a Royal dynasty> OR < tag name after a Samskara for religion-practice Identity>.
Regards
BVK Sastry
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of sunil bhattacharjya
Sent: Monday, 05 September, 2016 2:55 PM
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of patanjali
Sathya Narayanan N
rniyengar
K S Kannan
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K S Kannan
K S Kannan
Madhav Deshpande
rniyengar
shankara
Patanjali Kalin Bharat - Prabhudayal Aganihotri 1962
shankara
From: K S Kannan <ks.kann...@gmail.com>
To: bvparishat <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2016 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} time of patanjali
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shankara
From: Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2016 8:25 PM
Bijoy Misra
K S Kannan
- [1] Paper by Paul Kiparsky on 'Economy and the Construction of the Śiva sūtras'.
- [2] Paper by Andras Kornai relating the Śiva sūtras to contemporary Feature Geometry.
- [3] Paper by Wiebke Petersen on 'A Mathematical Analysis of Pāṇini’s Śiva sūtras.'
- [4] Frits Staal's Euclid and Panini.
Madhav Deshpande
sunil bhattacharjya
Bijoy Misra
Bijoy Misra
Vidyasankar Sundaresan
I'm happy that you find my paper to be well researched and written impartially. Usually, I am accused of being quite partisan. On the other hand, I'm a bit concerned that it has confounded confusion! My goal was to clarify a lot of issues of tradition, legend and history, to the best of my ability.
I will be making a trip to India in December. Rather than rewrite here much of what I've written elsewhere, I would welcome an opportunity to talk in person. I estimate that would also be the better course of action, because this topic of historicity of reported paramparAs of various institutions becomes a very sensitive one, perhaps a bit too sensitive today!
Namaskaras,
Vidyasankar
sunil bhattacharjya
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rniyengar
Dear Prof.Deshpande,
I read your paper with interest. Pāṇini hearing the Māheśvarasutras coming out of Shiva’s Damaru is a fascinating story, (heard since my childhood) 100% mystical with likely links to Mantraśāstra. You have made many interesting points that are of general historical interest for persons like me outside the circle of specialist Vaiyākaraṇas. I like to offer the following discussion:
1) The emphasis you make about the Śivasūtras is that they seem to have close cultural and historical connection with Chidambaram, Naṭarāja and the South Indian Śaiva tradition. This needs more evidences is my view; not because I am a Vaiṣṇava! Chidambaram even though popularly known as a śaiva kṣetra now, it was not so 1200-1300 years ago. There is a temple for Viṣṇu lying on the ādiśeṣa (Patañjali if you like) watching the Dance of Shiva in the same raṅga the large Nataraja-complex and this is one among the 108 canonical temples for Śrīvaiṣṇavas. I realize that this by itself has nothing to do with your proposition. But the history of Chidambaram does not seem to go as far back as that of Kāñcīpuram. It is said that the first structural temple in the south is the Kailasanatha Temple at Kanchi of the Pallavas (7th Cent). This temple has several stone reliefs that could be the preliminary simulations of the Nataraja concept. Nirupama Raghavan has an interesting publication “Is Siva iconography inspired by the Stars” (IJHS 2006, pp.271-295). She also refers to the important point that although the famous bronze Natarajas belong to the Chola period (when I guess Chidambaram attained its peak) the initial conception (and an image at the Albert Victoria museum) belongs to the Pallava period. More details on this point are in the paper available at (http://www.sharadasrinivasan.com/data/shivacosmicdancer.pdf). My feeling is that the legend of the fundamental-sutras emerging out of the Damaru of Śiva might have had its origin at Pallava-Kanchipuram, before 6-7th Century. If the physical feature of Chidambaram is any evidence to depend on, then the śaiva-vaiṣṇava sectarian bifurcation should have happened a century or so after the founding of the temple-city in happier times with both icons in the same enclosure.
2)The Atharvaveda pariśiṣṭa (43.4.16) knows Pāṇini by name. I don’t know whether this is same as the grammarian, but most likely to be so. The text knows Dīnāra the NW Indian currency and hence my guess is AVP in its present form should have got fixed c 300 BC. My question is about (AV Pariśiṣṭa.47. Varṇapaṭalam) It starts with: oṃ varṇān pūrvaṃ vyākhyāsyāmaḥ prākṛtā ye ca vaikṛtāḥ| śrutinirvacanāt sarve vivadante vivṛttiṣu|| and ends with: (47,3.6) varṇāḥ pancaṣaṣṭiḥ svarā dvāviṃśatiḥ samānākṣarāṇi caturdaśa aṣṭau saṃdhyakṣarāṇy ekonaviṃśatir nāminas tricatvāriṃśad vyanjanānisparśāḥ pancaviṃśatiś catvāras tv antaḥsthāḥ catvāro yamāś cāṣṭāv ūṣmāṇo 'yogavāhā daśāyogavāhā daśa || This chapter is followed by 48 kautsavyaniruktanighaṇṭuḥ.
My question is; has there been any investigation of this text vis-a-vis Sanskrit Grammar?
3) The author Śivarāmendrasaraswati, whom you cite, seems linked to the Kanchi Kamakoti-peetham through his name.
Best regards
RN Iyengar
Madhav Deshpande
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Jaya Prakash
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sunil bhattacharjya
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BVKSastry(Gmail)
Namaste
A side note, yet which may be of some critical importance for scholarly pursuit in this thread, emerging from various pointers.
First step is in refined articulation of the references of exploration by Time frame, Common Points of reference and Zone for investigation with pointers to ‘data’.
For me, this is a key issue in tracing a continuity and consistency of a language standard and tradition which goes by the name of ‘Samskrutha Vyakarana –Darshanam (also known as Vedanga Vyakarana / Shabda Brahma Darshanam / Vak-Yoga / Sphota Vada / Shabda –Shakti Niroopanam) ’ for which the hypothesized pedagogic approach is called ‘Yoga way of studying Samskrutham’. The technical name ‘Vak-Yoga, is a Vedic word cited by Patanjali.
a) Framing a Time –window and focus: The preferred broad window would be <3100 BCE to 1700 AD> ; with sharper and short focus in < 650 AD to 1400 AD> to explore the local histories of prime centers of three Vedanta schools .
RNI has already identified a window marked for exploring up to 1000 BCE. My earlier mails were talking about 700 BCE to 6000 BCE covering a back period From Buddha –Mahaveer back up to Valmiki. Dr. Kalyanaraman has pushed this window beyond 6000 BCE.
b) Zone of investigation : Expanding from current south India narrow centricity to entire India, covering mainly Kedarnath, Badrinath, Nepal and Kashmir. The legends connect all three Acharya in one way or another to these punya-kshetras. The Dashanami Sadhu sampradaya /Akahadas , with different lens of Tantra and Yoga Sadhana are relatively more strong in these areas compared to knowledge oriented scholars and urban model ( = NagarI model) centers of Vedanta in south. I am aware I have not included some of the famous seven moksha-kshetras like - ‘Ayodhya, Mathura, Maya, Kashi, Avantika ’ in which list Kanchi figures prominently.
c) Some ‘Data’ that seems hanging loose and yet to be integrated : Claims of ‘ Somanth –First of Jyotirlingas also known as Prabhas Temple at Gujrat, claiming a 60,000 year ancestry by Puranas (?!) ; History of Bodh Gaya ( a place which still gets covered in all three Acharya’s travels somehow or other) ; History of Kashmir –and Abhinava Gupta ; Historic records of Nepal –Pashupatinath, another Jyotirlinga place linked to visit and worship by Shankaracharya . There are differing claims from the ‘Shakti-Peethas’ on history, which again get deeply linked to Shanakras date, beyond ‘ Kanchi and Sringeri’.
I would prefer to call the expansion of the subject theme : From -‘Time of Patanjali’ To ‘ Footprints of Vedanta Brahma Jijnayasa :Vyasa tradition in India’ . This would adequately cover the time stretch of 3100 BCE (at the lower end as widely accepted date of Mahabharata and therefore for Vyasa, who had a clear inheritance of Vedas, Upanishads and probably many understandings of essence of Veda as Kapila-Samkhya Darshana; and documented Srimad Bhagavad-Gita ) and Patanjali ( circa 200 BCE) and diversified continuity of Vedanta documented in Samskrutham, consistently taking recourse to ‘ Paninian Guideline’ for language and Vedas for purpose authentication.
These would certainly rip open the colonial constructions of history and linguistics of ‘ Brahmi languages’ and address the core common question in the post below : < some detailed analysis of how 19th century Indians under British colonial rule started assigning dates to our own historical events in the alien Christian calendar.> at the base of which is buried the ‘disturbed soul of Yoga and Samskrutham’ - The distortion in understanding Yoga technicalities of Samskruth language studies need a greater attention. The words in Amarakosha for ‘Samskrutham’ are : brAmI –BhAratI – BhaAzA- GIh – Vak- vANI – SarasvatI. Would all these be synonyms ? freely substitutable vocabulary OR different perspectives and pedagogies related to one language ? May we need a focused contemplation why the word ‘Samskrutham does not figure in classical lexicon Amarakosha for what we call and debate today as ‘Sanskrit’. And what would the word ‘DevabhazhA’ –sura-BhAratI’ mean in the context of Amarakosha. Patanjali tradition sets and guards the Yoga Standards of Samskrutham as language. (Shabda –Brahma –Bhashaa). Vedanta Tradition by Acharyas provides guidance and sets standards of practice and philosophy to understand the ‘ Brahma from the Shabda, Vak’. In this sense, both seem to me as intertwined unified traditions flowing in two streams, which can not be artificially separated using ‘ history’.
Regards
BVK Sastry
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rniyengar
sunil bhattacharjya
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Ajit Gargeshwari
Dear Sunilji,
Are we talking about personal convictions or historical facts. It will be always good to speak what facts warrant. Beyond facts it’s all narration and different individuals have different abilities. Its left to ones decision if one wants to go beyond sentiments and narratives may it be historical dates or philosophical debate.
As Vidayasankarji has already said that he will be making a trip to India in December. Rather than rewrite here much of what I've written elsewhere, I would welcome an opportunity to talk in person. I estimate that would also be the better course of action, because this topic of historicity of reported paramparAs of various institutions becomes a very sensitive one, perhaps a bit too sensitive today!”
Regards
Ajit Gargargeshwari
sunil bhattacharjya
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Ajit Gargeshwari
All the dates offered by astronomical methods including Rajatrangini chronicle is not beyond dispute. At best for ancient chronology one can offer tentative dates. Relative chronology makes a lot more sense. We are talking about Patanjali dates on this thread and probably we can stick to that. Stars don't lie but their interpretations does. Astronomical dating is not a substitute for archaeological epigraphical evidence where there are no such evidence one can look into other methods as tentative keeping ones own guesses and theories behind .