To Grammarians

Madhav Deshpande

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Jul 16, 2021, 8:44:15 AM7/16/21

to Madhav Deshpande

To Grammarians

एकधो वा द्विधो वायमेकयो वा द्वियस्तथा ।

शब्दचिन्तां परित्यज्य सुध्युपास्य: सदा हरि: ।।

Whether he [or the word "sudhypāsya"] has two “dh”s or one, or two “y”s or one, the wise should forget about the word and always focus on Lord Hari.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

Achyut Karve

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Jul 17, 2021, 11:59:41 AM7/17/21

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If as proposed by Madhavji the word is written and pronounced as सुध्युपास्य: there will be a विराम between सु and ध्युपास्य: and hence will result in the loss of the समास. It should be written and pronounced as सुद्धुपास्य:

Achyut Karve

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Madhav Deshpande

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Jul 17, 2021, 12:06:14 PM7/17/21

to Bharatiya Vidvat parishad

Dear Karve Ji,

I have been studying and teaching Pāṇini all my life, and I am not aware of any rule that would require us to place a virāma as you suggest. You probably know something that I don't. Would like to hear your reasoning. Thanks.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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Achyut Karve

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:48:01 AM7/18/21

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Dear Madhavi,

One need not place a virama, it occurs in faulty speech. A virama is experienced as a guttural stop in between letters of a word. It occurs in all syllabic languages. For eg. in the word 'compound' there occurs a guttural stop in between 'com' and 'pound'.

As suggested in my book a rule needs to be made for Sanskrit that while voicing successive letters of a word the tongue invariably needs to pulled back each time so as to avoid a virama.

1) In the word in question I suppose that श is replaced by स.

2) As in the Marathi word शुद्ध the द and ध are by no means dental. The द is alveolar and the ध is palatal.

3) Now one needs to answer why श is replaced by स. The answer possibly is on account of ध losing it's vowel and य coming in its place.

4) Once this is done one need not remove the द् resulting in sanyoga of three consonants द् ध् and य.

5) Since the time taken to sound consonants is negligible the matra remain the same.

I would like to hear from you what Paninian rules have been applied that the द is dropped.

Without prejudice.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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Nityanand Misra

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Jul 18, 2021, 1:29:17 PM7/18/21

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On Sunday, 18 July, 2021 at 9:18:01 pm UTC+5:30 Achyut Karve wrote:

Dear Madhavi,

One need not place a virama, it occurs in faulty speech. A virama is experienced as a guttural stop in between letters of a word. It occurs in all syllabic languages. For eg. in the word 'compound' there occurs a guttural stop in between 'com' and 'pound'.

As suggested in my book a rule needs to be made for Sanskrit that while voicing successive letters of a word the tongue invariably needs to pulled back each time so as to avoid a virama.

1) In the word in question I suppose that श is replaced by स.
2) As in the Marathi word शुद्ध the द and ध are by no means dental. The द is alveolar and the ध is palatal.
3) Now one needs to answer why श is replaced by स. The answer possibly is on account of ध losing it's vowel and य coming in its place.
4) Once this is done one need not remove the द् resulting in sanyoga of three consonants द् ध् and य.
5) Since the time taken to sound consonants is negligible the matra remain the same.

Dear Sh. Achyut Karve Ji

Apologies, but I am thoroughly confused on reading all this. I do not understand most of what you wrote. How does द become alveolar? How does ध become palatal? What does श in Sanskrit changing to स in Marathi (happens in Hindi also) have to do with य coming in place of the vowel following ध?

Can you please share publication details of your book where this is discussed in depth. Are these your original ideas/theories or have they been expressed by other Marathi linguists/grammarians also? If so, can you please share their publication details also?

Thanks, Nityananda

Madhav Deshpande

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Jul 18, 2021, 1:56:57 PM7/18/21

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I second the comments of Nityananda Ji. "The द is alveolar and the ध is palatal." This type of phonetics would be like shooting Pāṇini with a gun. I am sorry to say, but this kind of "wisdom" is very upsetting. I will not respond to this any further.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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उज्ज्वल राजपूत

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Jul 18, 2021, 11:27:27 PM7/18/21

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शुद्ध उपास्यः

शुद्ध्य् उपास्यः (ता॒ल॒व्या३॒॑द्धाद॒तो यः)

सुद्ध्य् उपास्यः (शस्य॒ सः)

सुद्ध्युपास्यः / सुध्युपास्यः Eureka! (अवि॑दम्)

अच्युताजी, हा शब्द "सुधी" आणि "उपास्य" या दोन शब्दांनी बनलेला आहे।

Achyut Karve

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Jul 19, 2021, 4:51:39 AM7/19/21

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Dear Ujjwalji,

मग तो 'सूध्युपास्यः' असा व्हायला पाहिजे.

आपला,

अच्युत कर्वे.

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Dr. Yadu Moharir

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Jul 19, 2021, 11:44:56 AM7/19/21

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Dear Scholars,

One can easily understand the core principle what Sri Achyut Karve-Ji is saying if one understands difference between terms "taala", "maatraa" and "laya (tempo)" in Indian classical music.

Ek taala has 12 maatra's. but the division of thees 12 maatraa's is not evenly divided like "teen taala" that has 16 maatra's.

Tabla Lesson # 1 Ek Taal | Ektaal - For Beginners | How to play Ek Taal on Hands

Learn Ek Taal on Tabla - Famous Tabla Player Teaching Tabla

Pt Ravi Shankar when teaching his students the concept of "tihaaii" (a phrase repeated 3 times), he used to ask students to repeat "मेथि पालक चूका" 3 Times but the "SUM" must arrive (land on का and not चू ". This teaches student how to sub-divide for remaining faithful the the bandish.

My 2 cents

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Sunday, July 18, 2021, 11:47:09 AM MST, Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

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