Lightning rods in Ancient India -clarification

[Madhusoodana Bhat]

मान्याः ।

मम मित्रस्य संदेहः एवमस्ति । 

कृपया सूच्यतां किं प्राचीनभारते भवनं विद्युत्पातात् त्रातुं शिखरे लोहशलाका स्थाप्यते स्म ? 

किमेतद्विषयकं ज्ञानं प्राचीनजनानामासीत् ? 

यद्यासीत्तर्हि  किमपि प्रमाणं प्रस्तूयताम ।

--
Madhusoodana Bhat

[narayanan er]

महात्मन्,

मन्दिरादीनामुपर्युच्चैः कूर्चायिताः मुकुटाः ताम्रनिर्मितास्तावद् विद्युत्प्रवाहं प्रतिरुन्धन्तीति प्रत्यक्षसिद्धमेव। अनेन मन्दिरादीनां भित्तीर्न विद्युतो भिदन्ति। विद्युत्प्रवाहतिरस्कारे तत्र संकुम्भितानां मुकुटानां कूर्चायितत्वं कारकम्। विशेषतस्ताम्रस्य विद्युदनुकूलत्वं प्रातिकूल्यकल्पं तत्र तत्र कुम्भादुत्कूर्चायितया विद्युत उपरिष्टात् पतन्तीर्दूरीकुर्वन्ति। इमे कूम्भकूर्चमुकुटा विद्युद्रोधकाः (Lightning Arrester) सन्तः प्रवर्त्तन्ते। केरऴेषु पुराकाले प्राचीनमन्दिरेषु गर्भगृहोपरि कुम्भमुकुटान् ताम्रनिर्मितानुत्कूर्चितानेव तान्त्रिकाः स्थापयन्ति स्म। एतत् तु प्रत्यक्षं प्रमाणं यत्, बह्वीषु सामान्यगृहभित्तिषु विद्युदाघातभिन्नास्वपि त्रिशतादपि वर्षेभ्यः पुराणानि मन्दिराणि न लवमपि भग्नानीति। ताम्रस्य विद्युदनुकूलत्वं तस्य विन्यसने उत्कूर्चनत्वं च विद्युतो सामीप्यमप्यानेतुं मुकुटा नानुकूलयन्ति। प्रतिहननं (repellent) नाम तत्। विद्युत आकृष्य भूमौ निपातनं (earthing) अन्यत्। 

इति सविनयं निवेदयन् नारायणः।

---

From: Madhusoodana Bhat <madhus...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Cc: Vijay Pal Shastri <sanskri...@gmail.com>; H R Vishwasa <hrvis...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2012 10:45 AM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Lightning rods in Ancient India -clarification

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[Ganesh R]

No, no such fittings are mentioned either in the aagama-s or in the shilpashaastra-s. Ancient Indians  had no knowledge of current flow in a circuit. Strained interpretations can only  reflect our inferiority complexes:-)

2012/7/5 narayanan er <drerna...@yahoo.com>

[Navaratna Rajaram]

 

   I wholeheartedly agree with Sri Ganesh. let us understand and admire our real achievements, not worship fanciful creations.

 

   let us also understand knowledge from modern science and not dismiss it as 'white' or 'alien'.

 

Best regards,

N.S. Rajaram

2012/7/5 Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com>

[Ganesh R]

Dear Rajaram Sir,
I am happy that you are with me:-)

regards

ganesh

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 9:38 AM, Vijay Pal Shastri <sanskri...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

[narayanan er]

Respected scholars,

Namaskarah.

Could it not be too early to predict that Indians hadn't been aware of protection from from lightning? As being an architectural text, the Tantrasamuccaya recommends the copper crests being hooked up to be established atop. There are copper plates installed under the earth before constructing a temple. I hope I can quote a few verses in the coming days after referring to the Tantarasamuccaya. It has not at all been said the purpose of such fittings for such and such protections etc. But it was a general assumption on the context of conductivity of metals where copper is more electro conductive to Iron etc. There is no question of any sort of complex of being an Indian to be an inferior or superior. I didn't neither claim that the ancient Indians knew about electricity or electronics as we are accustomed to work with nowadays. But we have to assume that there could have thunder and lightning in ancient times too. Inverted club like copper crests atop temples could hardly be an ornamentation that I believe.

In the first mail by Madhusoodana Bhat there had no hint about Professor Vijay Pal Shastri's quotations from Ravigupta's Lokasamvyavaharapravrtti, which is claimed to be a 7th century A.D. work. Professor Shastri quotes the following verse:

कश्चित् क्वचिद् बलीया-

न्नैकः सर्वार्थसाधनायालम्।

शैलं भिनत्ति वज्रं

स्वयमेति भिदां विषाणेन।।

Professor Shastri gives a prose order to this:

कश्चित् क्वचिद् बलीयान् एकः सर्वार्थसाधनाय अलं न। वज्रं शैलं भिनत्ति स्वयं विषाणेन भिदाम् एति।

This verse also does not claim that the Indians had a knowledge of electric current or electronic flow at that time. Professor Shastri assumes the meaning for वज्रम् (thunderbolt) as lightning which hits the mountain in the form of a flow of current and विषाणः as a discharger (please see MM Williams Dictionary). From the pdf (prasna) file that he sent to the BVP and others the intentions are quite clear that the current could be broken with the help of metal dischargers and as if this case is applicable to the mountains, it could be for the buildings too.

Moreover, yes, Sirs, it was naturally a strained effort to write in Sanskrit but that interpretation is not at all a result of any complex and I consider myself as neither superior nor inferior rather than trying for perfection.

Thanks with respect and many regards,

Narayanan 

---

From: Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com>
To: drerna...@yahoo.com
Cc: "madhus...@gmail.com" <madhus...@gmail.com>; "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>; Vijay Pal Shastri <sanskri...@gmail.com>; H R Vishwasa <hrvis...@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2012 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Lightning rods in Ancient India -clarification

[narayanan er]

Respected scholars,

I hereby forward the message to the BVP for the benefit of others, which was send to me only by Satavadhani Professor R Ganesh.

Regards,

Narayanan

----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Ganesh R <avadhan...@gmail.com>
To: narayanan er <drerna...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, 6 July 2012 12:11 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Lightning rods in Ancient India -clarification

Dear Sirs,

I have not ill feeling for any thing or any body here.:-) But unless we have strong and unchallenged evidences one should not end-up in theorizing. Strained interpretations always spoil the efforts of the true seekers. Taken for granted that the copper kalasha-s on the top and plates below the temples protect them from thunderbolts, how on earth it  is possible unless a strong wire connects both the ends? If not instead of the setup protecting the structure, would in-turn attract more thunderbolts! Above all, if interpretations take an upper hand over experimental verifications and hard evidences, any thing and every thing can mean all is in our agenda. This is how, i honestly feel that the Vedic and other aspects of Sanskrit  literature is interpreted by various schools of philosophy since time immemorial. Here more  than the Rjvartha, the elbowing of of interpretation-tools gain an undue upper hand.

regards

ganesh

2012/7/6 narayanan er <drerna...@yahoo.com>

[Vijnasu]

Namaste,

Electric current is one type of Chaitanya. Veda give basic
formulas for the same. In Vaidika Bauthashastra, the Rishis elaborate
the explanation of ChaitanyaVaahakaas, ChaitanyaBhedaka, Mitrabheda,
Tantrabheda, etc., with respect to Anu Vidhya. Kapila Muni, the
supreme scholar of Anu Vidhya also gives lot of Prayogas with these
kind of Parikaras. The basic formulas are practically implemented in
Tantras. In Dakshin Kannada, Kerala and also some parts of India there
are Agamokta Devalayas, the engineer to design & maintain the same is
called Tantri. Its common that engineers do a plan and the technical
team implement with the help of workers. But the plan the Tantri
designs is known only to him. Its called Tantra Rahasya, which may not
be known to public. It may not be published in available books. But
the traditional Tantris know it well. Only one Tantra Samucchaya is
available now. That too its a part of Devalaya Pratista & related
issues. There are 64 Tantra Samucchayas covering crores of Shlokas.

Our Poorvajas were well aware of thunderbolts & had taken
necessary precautions to avoid the same. Just an instance is Dhwaja
Sthanba which acts as thunder resister and also to protect the Graama
from 13 other Utpaatas. The circuit design is Shadadhara. Every Agama
available now discusses rituals of Shadadhara Pratista. But technical
details are hidden. The design plans were also Pranthiya (Regional).
An instance is that the seers understood the necessity of resisting
the thunderbolts in Dakshin Kannada and the result of their plan made
lakhs of Deva & Daiva Sthanas to neutralize the lightning. The power
to resist is the Kalaa Vruddhi by doing various Sevas, Upasanaas,
Alankaaras, Utsavaas, etc., But nowadays in the name of renovation
most of the Devalayas opened by people who are unaware of the circuit
design, proper connections & working details do Punarpratista which
may give Phala to Bhakta but the resistivity to natural phenomenon is
gone. The result of which from decades, the amount of lightning being
hit to the ground has drastically increased.

The formulas are properly explained in Vaidhika Bautashastra's
"Ananda Naamaka Adhyaya". Which gives all the necessary details about
nature, its vitality, variations, Utpaatas & Upasamhaaras. Direct way
of holding a resister against the lightning is also done by using
suitable metals. But tantra sutras caution that its not permanent. On
top of this temporary materials Utpaata Upasamhaara should be done in
the Tatwa level. The corresponding tatwas (much much minute than
atoms) should be treated well and corrections should be done in
Khagola for which Khagola Ganita with combination of Astra Ganitha is
there for calculations purpose. Then the Pooja Vidhana & other special
rituals are combined to neutralize the intended utpaata by increasing
the capacitance, resistance. Conductance will also be used for Deva-
Bhakta Sambanda.

What are Yantras? Nothing but convertors of Shabda Taranga to
Kirana Taranga. Electricity is nothing but the vyavahaara of Electro-
Magnetic Waves. Tantra is thousand time advanced, mature & cautious
than the present science.

The available Bruhit Samhita of Varahamihira at least discusses
about some of the Utpatas like Dhumaketu, AshaniPaata, etc., Its just
a collection from various sources. Lot more is there in the Prabandhas
submitted by lot of Rishis, Tantris, Dharshana Shastrakaaras,
Siddhantis, Jyotishkaas, Pandits, etc.,

Just by decoding some sutras from Tantras and Vedas, there are
lot of Bombs, Missiles, Weapons have been prepared for self
destruction. Its better that there should user based access level for
all the branches of Knowledge.

On Jul 6, 11:17 am, narayanan er <drernaraya...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Respected scholars,
> Namaskarah.
>
> Could it not be too early to predict that Indians hadn't been aware of protection from from lightning? As being an architectural text, the Tantrasamuccaya recommends the copper crests being hooked up to be established atop. There are copper plates installed under the earth before constructing a temple. I hope I can quote a few verses in the coming days after referring to the Tantarasamuccaya. It has not at all been said the purpose of such fittings for such and such protections etc. But it was a general assumption on the context of conductivity of metals where copper is more electro conductive to Iron etc. There is no question of any sort of complex of being an Indian to be an inferior or superior. I didn't neither claim that the ancient Indians knew about electricity or electronics as we are accustomed to work with nowadays. But we have to assume that there could have thunder and lightning in ancient times too. Inverted club like copper crests atop
>  temples could hardly be an ornamentation that I believe.
>
> In the first mail by Madhusoodana Bhat there had no hint about Professor Vijay Pal Shastri's quotations from Ravigupta's Lokasamvyavaharapravrtti, which is claimed to be a 7th century A.D. work. Professor Shastri quotes the following verse:
> कश्चित् क्वचिद् बलीया-
> न्नैकः सर्वार्थसाधनायालम्।
> शैलं भिनत्ति वज्रं
> स्वयमेति भिदां विषाणेन।।
> Professor Shastri gives a prose order to this:
>
> कश्चित् क्वचिद् बलीयान् एकः सर्वार्थसाधनाय अलं न। वज्रं शैलं भिनत्ति स्वयं विषाणेन भिदाम् एति।
> This verse also does not claim that the Indians had a knowledge of electric current or electronic flow at that time. Professor Shastri assumes the meaning for वज्रम् (thunderbolt) as lightning which hits the mountain in the form of a flow of current and विषाणः as a discharger (please see MM Williams Dictionary). From the pdf (prasna) file that he sent to the BVP and others the intentions are quite clear that the current could be broken with the help of metal dischargers and as if this case is applicable to the mountains, it could be for the buildings too.
> Moreover, yes, Sirs, it was naturally a strained effort to write in Sanskrit but that interpretation is not at all a result of any complex and I consider myself as neither superior nor inferior rather than trying for perfection.
> Thanks with respect and many regards,
> Narayanan
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >________________________________

> > From: Ganesh R <avadhanigan...@gmail.com>
> >To: drernaraya...@yahoo.com
> >Cc: "madhusood...@gmail.com" <madhusood...@gmail.com>; "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>; Vijay Pal Shastri <sanskrit.ved...@gmail.com>; H R Vishwasa <hrvishw...@gmail.com>

> >Sent: Thursday, 5 July 2012 9:12 PM
> >Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Lightning rods in Ancient India -clarification
>
> >No, no such fittings are mentioned either in the aagama-s or in the shilpashaastra-s. Ancient Indians  had no knowledge of current flow in a circuit. Strained interpretations can only  reflect our inferiority complexes:-)
>

> >2012/7/5 narayanan er <drernaraya...@yahoo.com>

>
> >महात्मन्,
>
> >>मन्दिरादीनामुपर्युच्चैः कूर्चायिताः मुकुटाः ताम्रनिर्मितास्तावद् विद्युत्प्रवाहं प्रतिरुन्धन्तीति प्रत्यक्षसिद्धमेव। अनेन मन्दिरादीनां भित्तीर्न विद्युतो भिदन्ति। विद्युत्प्रवाहतिरस्कारे तत्र संकुम्भितानां मुकुटानां कूर्चायितत्वं कारकम्। विशेषतस्ताम्रस्य विद्युदनुकूलत्वं प्रातिकूल्यकल्पं तत्र तत्र कुम्भादुत्कूर्चायितया विद्युत
>
>  उपरिष्टात् पतन्तीर्दूरीकुर्वन्ति। इमे कूम्भकूर्चमुकुटा विद्युद्रोधकाः (Lightning Arrester) सन्तः प्रवर्त्तन्ते। केरऴेषु पुराकाले प्राचीनमन्दिरेषु गर्भगृहोपरि कुम्भमुकुटान् ताम्रनिर्मितानुत्कूर्चितानेव तान्त्रिकाः स्थापयन्ति स्म। एतत् तु प्रत्यक्षं प्रमाणं यत्, बह्वीषु सामान्यगृहभित्तिषु विद्युदाघातभिन्नास्वपि त्रिशतादपि वर्षेभ्यः पुराणानि मन्दिराणि न
>  लवमपि भग्नानीति। ताम्रस्य विद्युदनुकूलत्वं तस्य विन्यसने उत्कूर्चनत्वं च विद्युतो सामीप्यमप्यानेतुं मुकुटा नानुकूलयन्ति। प्रतिहननं (repellent) नाम तत्। विद्युत आकृष्य भूमौ निपातनं (earthing) अन्यत्।
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >>इति सविनयं निवेदयन् नारायणः।
>
> >>>________________________________

> >>> From: Madhusoodana Bhat <madhusood...@gmail.com>
> >>>To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
> >>>Cc: Vijay Pal Shastri <sanskrit.ved...@gmail.com>; H R Vishwasa <hrvishw...@gmail.com>

[subodh kumar]

Respected Scholars,

From the on going discussions about Lightening rods, I am emboldened to share with all my  study of Yajurved Chapter 17. This apter is basically addressed to Maruts, but on closer scrutiny also lays bare the latest knowledge on microbes. The last mantras are repeat of Rig Ved 4.58. I see in these mantras modern knowledge about lipids, cholesterol, cow's milk HDL, LDL and a healthy heart.

I shall be grateful to get expert comments on my layman interpretations.

I have been also studying Rig Ved Marut sookts also with this concept in mind, and will be glad to share my interpretations with like minded scientist veda scholars.

With best regards to all,

Subodh Kumar

Subodh Kumar,
C-61 Ramprasth,
Ghaziabad-201011
Mobile-9810612898

Maharshi Dayanand Gosamwardhan Kendra , Delhi-96

http://subodh-vedainspirations.blogspot.com
http://subodh-cowsinindia.blogspot.com

A bird sitting on a tree is never afraid of  the branch breaking, because his trust  is NOT  on the branch but on it's own WINGS !!

Believe in yourself & WIN the world..

.

[Madhusoodana Bhat]

Respected scholars,

I am greatly indebted to all scholars who gave their learned opinion in the matter. I am sure many more would give their versions soon.

The mail of Sri Subodh Kumar appears to have diverted the issue from this thread. I request Sri Subodh Kumar to initiate a fresh discussion about Maruts in a new thread, so that Maruts and Lightning Rods are not mixed confusing every one in the process. 

Request scholars to continue discussion in this thread about Lightning Rods in Ancient India.  

Madhusoodana Bhat