My Master Class lecture on “Mahabharata Astrology”

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Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 13, 2021, 2:35:05 PMOct 13
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Dear Scholars, 

I am glad to share the link to my Master Class lecture on “Mahabharata Astrology” delivered on 9th October 2021, on the occasion of the 109th Jayanti of Dr. B.V. Raman, organized by Raman & Rajeswari Research Foundation chaired by Bangalore Niranjan Babu, the son of Dr. B.V. Raman.

Vedic Astrology MASTER CLASS 2021 - Mahabharatha Astrology - YouTube

Starting with the basic classification of Astrology, I showed how all the planetary references in the Mahabharata, tagged as nimitta-s are part of Phala Bhaga of Jyothisha, that rejects any reference to the newly discovered planets, namely, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto. This clarifies that any work on dating the Itihāsa-s, done by using these planets can be rejected outright at the outset.

Then I went on to show how all the planetary and the calendar references in the Mahabharata are aligned with Vedic astronomy and the Ashtānga system of Time. Some salient points are as follows:


(1) Only 27 functional stars at any point of time, and not 28.


(2) The 13th tithi Amavasya was caused by a disturbance to the Z-axis of the Earth- Moon system by an extraterrestrial impact causing the moon to go on a shorter revolution, that is perpetuated into memory by the concept of Bodhāyana Amavasya.

(3) This disturbance had thrown off the earth from its X-Y axis temporarily, which caused it to take a longer path to reach the Uttarāyaṇa-point, making Bhishma to wait for his exit. This anomalous change in Time is remembered as Ratha Saptami.


(4) This also caused the earth to wobble more than normal before attaining its natural orientation that is detectable by unusual appearances of the sky reported by Vyāsa in the altered appearance of Arundhati-Vasishtha pair and the reverse movement of Dhruva and Mars.

My paper published on this cosmic impact in the Academia Letters (https://doi.org/10.20935/AL1385) brought me into contact with one of the reviewers of my paper, Prof. Joachim Seifert of Germany. He shared with me the graphs and the details of an extra-terrestrial impact already recorded in the Temperature chart of the Holocene. The year was 3136 BCE, which I validated as the year of the Mahabharata war, which took place thirty-five years before the beginning of Kali Yuga, when Krishna left. 


The verses of the Mahabharata suggesting the impact that I shared with him convinced him further about the impact that he recognized as the “Hastināpura Meteor Event”, the details of which are going to be published by him in his upcoming paper in a science journal. This event becoming the world’s first ever recorded eye-witness account – earlier than the Kaali impact of Sweden – the Mahabharata is set to come out of the tag of Mythology and as a true account that did take place in 3136 BCE, 35 years before Kali Yuga began.

From this I went on establishing the Vedic concept of the to-and-fro oscillation of the equinoxes -fundamental to understanding the lack of change in month-season combination - that is totally different from the ever-precessing equinoctial model of the west. This model rejects the axial precession of the earth – which is also revealed by the archaeo-astronomy of the ancient monuments of the world – and supports the precession of the entire solar system caused by the helical path of the sun as it surges ahead in the Universe. This path causes the sway of the sun for 27 degrees on either side of the sidereal Aries in lateral view from the earth. As a result, the seasons do not change much but oscillate around Caitra which we have retained as the standard configuration at all times in the past and even now.




In this context I am explaining the crucial factor called the “Ayanāmśa”- the difference between the tropical position of the equinoctial sun from the sidereal position which is very much a part and parcel of horoscopy even today, but missing in western astronomy. The absence of this concept in the astronomy simulations shows absurd levels of addition of the ayanāmśa value, say, 35 to 45 degrees for 3067 BCE and 5561 BCE, 150 degrees for Bali’s time when the vernal equinox was said to be in Virgo and 180 degrees if one dates the Ramayana at 14,000 years ago. Were the Vedic sages so illogical in conceiving the ayanāmśa concept with such large deviations?


In a continuously precessing equinoctial system, there is no need for the ayanāmśa, but then the sages had proposed the use of ayanāmśa shows that the equinox was not continuously precessing. The ayanāmśa concept based on the oscillatory model of the equinoxes, ingrained in our more or less static state of month-seasons and incorporated in casting our horoscopes, must make us realize how irrelevant it is to use the western astronomy calculations that have no place for ayanāmśa correction.

In this context I have shown that it is not possible to extrapolate or approximate the rate of the ayanāmśa for the past. The only exception being the zero degree point of the sidereal Aries, which the sun crosses every 3600 years, where the super conjunction of all the planets (except Rahu) had taken place at the time of the departure of Krishna when Kali Maha Yuga began. That date (22nd January 3101 BCE) is reproduced from Jhora for Vedic / Surya Siddhanta ayanāmśa, Lahiri ayanāmśa and Pushya Paksha ayanāmśa along with the simulation from the Stellarium astronomy software. Only the Vedic / Siddhāntic ayanāmśa shows the congregation. All credit to Sri. Vinay Jha who computed this from the ancient works.

I further went on to demonstrate how the eclipses and the planetary data found in our inscriptions do not match with the astronomy catalogue computations used in the astronomy simulators and in the Jhora astrology simulator. By 400 years ago, the position of both the sun and the moon had deviated. This had increased more by 1000 years ago. Prof. Vahia’s research also establishes that the NASA data does not concur with the eclipse sightings in India.



The cause can be traced to the inability to solve the n-body equations. Any eclipse should solve 4-body equations, involving the moon, the sun, the star in the backdrop and the latitude and longitude of the observer.


Mr. Nilesh Oak claimed in his book on the date of the Mahabharata that the makers of his software vouchsafed for the Proper motion of the stars in his simulator. That pertains to the single-body equation with no scope to solve the other problems that must have been addressed to make them appear in a particular configuration in the observer’s sky.


Similarly, Prof. Achar also addressed the single-body equation when he wrote in his 2014 paper that the motion of the slow-moving planet such as Saturn is enough to date the Mahabharata war. His rationale was that Saturn with 200 revolutions in a period of 5000 years compared to 60,000 revolutions of the moon in the same period, had less margin of error, but simulations show that the location of Jupiter, another slow-moving planet could not be correctly identified in the simulation in a very recent past, say, in 1601 CE, due to problems in getting the precession rate of the day accurately.


Though he agreed that eclipses cannot be simulated correctly for periods 5000 years ago, he did not seem to realize the mismatch within the four bodies – the sun, the moon, the background star and the earth in the event of an eclipse not simulated correctly. At best he thought that the simulators concur with the astronomy catalogues, but of what use do they have for Vedic astronomy calculations?


Compared to any combination, the Kali Yuga congregation is a 10-body problem which can be solved only in the limited equinoctial model at the point of the zero ayanāmśa, at the beginning of sidereal Aries.

Unable to reproduce the Kali Yuga date, the colonial writers rejected it as fabricated. Fleet even rejected the Janamejaya inscription that incorporates the 8-body equation on the pretext that the date is impossible. As one coming from a background that believes that the earth was created only 5000 years ago, he could not accept the prospect of advanced dynasties in India at that time. Why should we inherit a colonial obsession and reject the history of Janamejaya, the second king of Kali Yuga?

Our time scale is such that we have 9-body equations concurring at every moment of Time. They are not reproducible at a later date due to limitations in calculating the precession rate and the current limited knowledge of the equinoctial movement. The sages who handed down the knowledge of the limited equinoctial movement did not give us any formula for calculating precession at any point of time. They wanted us to watch the shadow of the sun regularly to calculate the deviation and adjust it as ayanāmśa. For now, it is Lahiri ayanāmśa but at the beginning of sidereal Aries, it was zero ayanāmśa. Fortunately, this point happened to see the Kali yuga conjunction in 3101 BCE. Thirty-five years before that, the Mahabharata war had taken place (3136 BCE).

 

Jayasree Saranathan: My Master Class lecture on “Mahabharata Astrology” 

Regards, 
Jayasree Saranathan


Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 13, 2021, 6:45:01 PMOct 13
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Congratulations to Ms. Jayasree Saranathan. Her proposed date of Mahabharata war, 3136 B.C., aligns closely with the date of 3138 B.C., claimed by Pandit Kota Venkatachalam, in his 1940s work, " The plot in Indian Chronology ", page no. 45., published by Kota Venkatachelam Historical Research Institute (KVHRI). He has laid out very precise arguments on how he arrived at his conclusions. Books are available from the publisher. I have a copy.

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273


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Ramesh Rao

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Oct 13, 2021, 8:27:49 PMOct 13
to bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्, Jayasree Saranathan
The Hastinapura Meteor Event is really intriguing, and if it did happen and gave the Earth a jolt, then so much of the data about aberrant sightings would have a powerful explanation. 

Where else can one one find corroboration for a meteor strike in that period, because a Google search gives statistical probabilities but not specific dates.

Ramesh Rao

Raja Roy

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Oct 13, 2021, 11:15:41 PMOct 13
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Congratulations Dr. Saranathan. A very illuminating talk. As you rightly point out, there are serious issues in using astronomy software for dating as people using them do not realize the margins of errors involved as one goes further back in antiquity. The points about validation of eclipses are also very intriguing. Things are not as simple as looking into NASA catalogues. As Prof. Ramesh Rao pointed out, the comet impact also needs further investigation. Congratulations again.

Best regards,
Raja

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 14, 2021, 7:09:23 AMOct 14
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Thanks Mr. Krishna for the congratulatory message.

Pandit Kota Venkatachelam's contribution to the decipherment of the year of the Mahabharata war is immense and laudable.  

However the year of the Mahabharata war was not 3138 BCE but 3136 BCE. 
The difference of 2 years is due to the following: 
1. He assumes that there was a 36 year gap between the war and the year of Krishna's departure. It was 35 only as per the Mahabharata text. There are four verses referring to Krishna's exit in the 36th year, by which we understand that the gap was 35 years. It was Krodhi, 35 years before Pramathi, when the Kali Yuga began.
2. He has quoted the Julian date for Kali Yuga in his works which turns out to be 3102 BCE. Since Kali Yuga began 3179 years before the  Shalivahana Shaka, the year was 3101 BCE, which we use as the base year in deciphering inscriptions. This is the year in the Gregorian calendar too, that we use today. I am suggesting this correction as one among a few rectifications to be done, in my upcoming book validating 3136 BCE as the year of the Mahabharata war. 

Regards, 
Jayasree

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 14, 2021, 8:07:59 AMOct 14
to Ramesh Rao, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Namaste Dr. Ramesh Rao, 

There is more data in support of the -3136 event. These are available in GISP2 graphs that people have been working on. Maybe it will take time for someone to enter them in the wiki article. The graph I have shown is based on many inputs including the data on 14-C and 10-Be spikes in that year. This particular Hastinapura event is going to be given in his upcoming paper, which is likely to be his 8th paper in a series on climate patterns in the Holocene. You can read his 7th paper here where he has worked on the Canterbury event that caused a disturbance to the earth-moon system and how the earth regained its position. (PDF) CLIMATE PATTERN RECOGNITION IN THE LATE-TO-END HOLOCENE (550 AD TO 1650 AD, PART 7) (researchgate.net) 


We may be close to identifying that comet, going by this NASA article published recently on the parent comet of ATLAS that was supposed to have broken into pieces during its previous sojourn around the sun 5000 years ago. Comet Atlas May Have Been a Blast From the Past | NASA. When I contacted Dr. Quanzhi Ye, the corresponding author of the paper, he confirmed that the parent comet had broken near the orbit of Mercury but left the solar system. His paper here: Disintegration of Long-period Comet C/2019 Y4 (ATLAS). I. Hubble Space Telescope Observations - IOPscience 

It is plausible that the broken parts had headed towards the earth and the moon and rained on them over 13 days, starting from the day Krishna left Upaplavya on a peace mission. I am producing more evidence in my upcoming book, though some of it is already written here: Jayasree Saranathan: Evidence of the comet-hit of 3136 BCE from Sindhu kingdom (Mohenjo-Daro) to the Alps. (Part 15: Mahabharata date) 
On the first day, a major hit was taken by the Lower Town of Mohenjo-daro. Attached a pic from Hemphil's paper, to show the oddity of the four sites falling in the same line. More in my book. 

Regards, 
Jayasree
Comet hit at Lower Town.jpg
3136 BCE comet hit (1).jpg

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 14, 2021, 8:22:17 AMOct 14
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Thanks a lot Dr. Raja Roy. 

The software issue is too serious to be ignored. 
The equations can be framed in any way to give different results.
To give an example, the Mesha Sankramana of current times can occur on different days depending on the ayanamsa used. 
If it is 14th April as per Lahiri ayanamsa, it is 13th April if we use Pushyapaksha ayanamsa.
What we call ayanamsa is precession in astronomy, which I showed, differed by 2 degrees 400 years ago. 

Regards, 
Jayasree 

Ramesh Rao

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Oct 14, 2021, 8:32:47 AMOct 14
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Dhanyavada, Dr. Saranathan 🙏

Ramesh Rao

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi

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Oct 14, 2021, 1:18:10 PMOct 14
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Congratulations Jayasree ji for the new findings.

However I draw your attention to JHora Creator PVR Narasimha Rao who said using Surya Siddhanta for Mahabharata Dates is not very sound. Kindly also check the paper of Dr Ashok Bhatnagar. He has studied the Equinox Solstice position with respect to the Nakshatras during the period of Kurukshetra War. Based on this he has produced upper and lower limit dates for the occurrence of Kurukshetra War which is very interesting.
I am also interested to know how many scientists agree that there is no continuous precession for the planet Earth? Every planet does precession due to the acquired angular momentum when they coalesce from gas clouds that spin like whirlpools in the water turning into planets. How can they give up this precession?

Even if some pendular swing motion due to the motions of the sun around the galaxy is superimposed onto the precision motion of the planet (in this case Planet Earth) the precession component still has to be there. What has your collaborator scientist has to say about it?

I am also interested to know about this Hastinapura event. Is it recorded in geological or meteorological records which I can examine?

Regards
Jijith

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
Former Scientist ISRO,
Founder: Dharma Digital, AncientVoice
Dharma Digital:- Dharmic revival through holograms, virtual worlds and digital technologies 
AncientVoice:- World's 1st and Largest Veda-Puruana-Itihasa wiki portal website with 23700 plus pages


Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 14, 2021, 2:56:17 PMOct 14
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Dear Dr. Jayasree Saranathan,

Thank you for a patient reply. I agree I am not as knowledgeable as you, but the difference in the year count of 35 years by you and 36 by Pandit Kota Venkatachelam between Krodhi and Pramati years is perhaps due to the fact that in Indian counting systems we use 1 as the starting point instead of 0 as westerners do. I am not saying you are wrong; on the contrary. I am trying to explain to myself with other logic on why there would be a difference at all between you and Sri Venkatachelam, and wondered perhaps this is one aspect that might be considered. When people mention their age in Indian terms, they may say 45, whereas in the western system of the same person counting his age, he might say 44. The mapping to Gregorian calendar might have introduced an additional year's error, I agree.

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 14, 2021, 2:57:35 PMOct 14
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Dr. Raja Roy,

Do you agree with Dr. Jayasree's observation of 3136 BCE as the date of Mahabharata war?

Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 14, 2021, 2:58:33 PMOct 14
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---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Jayasree Saranathan <jayasree....@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Oct 15, 2021 at 12:26 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} My Master Class lecture on “Mahabharata Astrology”
To: Jijith Nadumuri Ravi <jiji...@gmail.com>


Dear Mr Jijith, 

Thanks for your congratulations.

For your information, there is no new finding done by me. The date of Kali Yuga is followed by us for all these millennia and is used in dating inscriptions and from that I deduced the year of Mahabharata date as per the 35 year gap given in the text. All that I did was validation of the year through primary sources of evidence. I didn't discover a year.

Secondly, the cosmic impact is understandable from the oral tradition that continues to exist in Tamil, of Krishna doing tarpan well before the arrival of Amavasya. If you have seen the Tamil movie "Karnan" then also you would have known. I only explained by my hand gestures how Trayodaśī Amavasya is impossible to happen, and if it all it happens, under what circumstances it can happen. The events that unfold since the beginning of Krishna leaving Upaplavya describe these circumstances.  

Your questions and doubts make me understand that you have not listened to my lecture. 
All your questions are answered there.

Anyway quick replies:

# On PVNR's version of rejecting Surya Siddhanta and sticking to Drik : 
Lahiri ayanamsa works for now and Vedic / Surya Siddhanta works for zero ayanamsa. Check by yourself with any date and with all the ayanamsa to see this. I explained in the lecture why only at two points of time - now and zero ayanamsa. 
Drik works for the time under consideration. Parasara's Drik can not be used for now. What is Drik today is not valid even a century later. What is Drik in Mahabharata time must be used for deciphering that date. Zero ayanamsa of Surya Siddhanta / Vedic astronomy was the Drik of Kali yuga / Mahabharata time. That is why it comes into picture to decipher the date. I deciphered all the events as per traditional and calendric dates using this. Did anyone get the date right for Kali Yuga by the models they use? Kali Yuga date and the calendric cycles that started then are the tests of reliability for the model one uses. Only Surya Siddhanta / Vedic model passes the test. Explained with graphs.

# On Mr. Ashok Bhatanagar's version  on equinox and solstices: Is the equinox - solstice of the 5-year Yuga same as those simulated on astronomy software? I explained this part also. Did he or any one construct the 5-year Yuga of the Mahabharata period? For that you need to know the equinoctial position at that time. More importantly one needs to know that its is not western tropical. 

# On what scientists say about precession: 
If you want to reject Vedic version, no one stops you, but the fact of the matter is that the Mahabharata date cannot be simulated in the current model of precession. Another fact is that only a society that had lived for more than 3600 years could have known that the equinox does not always precess. The Vedic society had lived for so long, and longer than that, but western science has only 100 years of data on precession. Explained all these and more in the lecture. 

# More importantly, why do we use ayanamsa for our horoscopes even today? If you find out the answer for this, you will know that Vedic sages had known something that modern science had not yet known. Explained these also. 

# I raised  a question, that we use ayanamsa for everything - finds it ingrained in month- seasons such that they don't change - but use a model for dating the Mahabharata that doesn't incorporate ayanamsa. Why? 

# No comments on your 3rd and 4th paragraph as there is a huge gap between us on what we are talking about precession.

# What does the collaborator scientist say? 
Precession is not his cup of tea, but my son is an astronomer who has taught precession to undergraduates  and continues to use the precession theory for his satellite projects. He agrees in principle with the Vedic model of equinoxes, because he concedes that science is continually evolving and not static. He is aware of the anomalies, giving rise to doubts on the current model of precession. He knows its application for current / Drik because it is the solution for space probes, satellite positioning and more BUT not meant for extrapolating to the past. The n-body problem comes in that context. Do you know the current orientation of the earth? It is not precessing, it is moving forward since 2000. The causes are internal to the earth - which violates the luni-solar pull of the precession theory. Couple of evidence I cited in the lecture, which if grasped, will make one understand that a new branch of Physics is waiting to be discovered. Already people have started working on it. I wanted my son to work on it, but with his current commitments, he has shared Vedic insights with his friends who work on precession. The race for a Nobel has started. 

# You want to know about the geological and the meteorological records for the Hastinapura event. I suggest you first gather the evidence for the event from the text of the Mahabharata as I did. Then you will understand the question you asked.

Hope I clarified.

Regards, 
Jayasree

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 14, 2021, 3:05:25 PMOct 14
to Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear Mr. Krishna, 

There is no zero year problem here.
Kali Yuga began in Pramathi, in 3101 BCE when Krishna left.
He left in the 36th year after the war.
Please check the four verses and give your opinion 
Mahabharata: 11-25-41
16-1-1
16-2-2
16 -3 –verses 18 & 19 
in this source Sacred-Texts: Hinduism 

Regards, 
Jayasree 

Raja Roy

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Oct 15, 2021, 7:13:40 AMOct 15
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Dear Shri Krishna Kumar,
I am not in a position to resolve this issue. I can only offer some information that may help in better understanding.
1. I read about the date being Feb. 18, 3102 BCE as the start of Kaliyuga, but I don't know how it was derived. I would love to read the first paper on it, where the connection between Indian text details were made with the European calendar. I checked pages 44-45 of the book by Shri Kota Venkatachelam, but he seems to have assumed this date. There is no calculation verifying this date.
2. The use of Gregorian vs. Julian calendar should not result in an extra year as the difference between them is only 26 days in 3101 BCE or 3102 BCE.
image.png
Stellarium also provides Julian Days akin to Ahargana calculations. Here they are for these two years.

image.png
Please note that -3100 means 3101 BCE and -3101 means 3102 BCE. This is due to the fact that there was no zero AD/BC and 1 BC (BCE) was followed by 1 AD (CE), while astronomy software use zero year. 

3. I checked the verses referred by Dr. Saranathan, and could locate these in Gita Press edition:
image.png
image.png
image.png
Now, how do we interpret 36th year? We are in 2021 now. What is 36th year from now? Is it 2056 or 2057? 
Look forward to the opinion of other scholars in this forum.

Best regards,
Raja



Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 15, 2021, 2:37:23 PMOct 15
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Dr. Raja Roy,

"Now, how do we interpret 36th year? We are in 2021 now. What is 36th year from now? Is it 2056 or 2057? "

That is exactly the question I was asking. The reason I was trying to resolve this in my mind, for my own benefit is that the two year difference between Dr. Jayasree Saranathan's date of 3136 BC and Kota Venkatachelam's 3138 BC may be explained by omitting zero in conversions to Gregorian calendar. May be more research is needed if similar error was spotted in any other dating for other phenomenon. Dr. Jayasree's explanations in her presentation seem to hold their own without any other dependencies, ( I will wait for comments from other, more qualified people than me) so we must look for these type of answers. I will also read 'The Plot in Indian Chronology' in detail once again. If I can get hold of the original in Telugu, it may explain this difference. Unfortunately I only have the translation. If any scholar on the forum has a copy of the original, I request them to share it with me. Thanks in advance.


Best Regards,

Krishna

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri
Ph-Cell: 408-373-9273

Nagabhushana Rao K

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Oct 16, 2021, 12:30:01 PMOct 16
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Pandit Kota Venkatachalam has published an exclusive book on The Age of the Mahabharata war.

His English books (10 nos.) are available at archive.org- https://archive.org/details/ChronologyOfAncientHinduHistoryPart1

I can share his Telugu works as well, if someone is really interested.

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 16, 2021, 2:09:23 PMOct 16
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Dear Sri Nagabhushana Rao,

I have the English version books. In order to study the difference of two years between Dr Jayasree’s 3136 BC and Sri Venkatachalam’s 3138, I wanted the Telugu versions. I would be grateful if you could share the Telugu version with me.

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Raghav Prasad

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Oct 16, 2021, 9:08:51 PMOct 16
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The paper "Mahabharata Yuddha Kaala Nirnayam" in Telugu by Pendyala Venkata Subrahmanya Shastri may be of interest to some. 


Regards,
Raghavendra


Nagabhushana Rao K

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Oct 17, 2021, 6:54:29 AMOct 17
to भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्
Here is the work by Nadimpalli Jagannatha Rao (1931), which was THE base reference for many later works on Indology as per Indian traditional texts (incl. Kota Venkatachalam)-

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

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Oct 19, 2021, 10:00:01 PMOct 19
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Dear Sri Nagabhushana Rao garu, 

There is an obvious variation in the dating of the Mahabharata war between Sri Nadimpalli Jagannatha Rao and Smt Jayasree Saranathan and Sri Kota Venkatachalam. What I mean is that he is at variance from these two. And such details are what I would like to resolve, if not for others, for myself. So please do share the Telugu versions of Sri Kota Venkatachalam Gary’s books. From what I read, I am even more concerned that there is no agreement among scholars on how to deal with zero year (or year 1). 

Regards,

Krishna Kumar Pillalamarri

Nagabhushana Rao K

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Oct 20, 2021, 11:51:49 AMOct 20
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Shared the relevant Telugu books of Sri Kota Venkatachalam by personal mail & Google Drive, Mr. KrishnaKumar.

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi

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Oct 22, 2021, 1:02:42 PMOct 22
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Dear Dr Jayasree ji

Once again thanks for the illuminating talk on the Mahabharata Astrology.

Below are my observations after watching your full one and half hour presentation.

A momentum disturbance in the Earth-Moon system usually continues without any correction. Sure, it is possible to have the Earth-Moon system to attain a new equilibrium, but it will take a very long period. It will be a totally new equilibrium different from that which existed before the momentum-disturbance in the Earth-Moon system caused due to some meteor impact, like the one you are propsosing. If this occurred in around 3000-3100 BCE period, that means only 5000 years has elapsed and I don't think it is sufficient time to recover from the kind of impact you are proposing, which caused the shortening of the lunar half-period to 13 days from 14 days.

Such an impact will certainly cause many 13 day lunar-half periods in the subsequent months or years or centuries. But none of that is hinted at in the Mahabharata. Certainly the Earth-Moon system hit by an impact and momentum-disturbance cannot recover and regain its original state in such a short period as 30 months or 30 years or 300 years.

The shift on the mark of the moon can also be due to atmospheric disturbances. Atmospheric disturbances can cause change in the refractive-index in the local regions of the earth's atmosphere. If our line of sight passes through this local area where the refractive index is different, than the other regions of the sksy, then it can cause the particular stars to change their apparent positions.  I have already told you this a few years ago, while we were jointly refuting Nilesh's far fetched date of Mahabharata at 5561 BCE.

Thus, if our line of sight towards Arundhati-Vasistha  is passing through such an atmospheric disturbance in the sky where the refractive index is shifted from the other adjacent regions of the sky, then it can cause the shifts in the relative position of Arundhati vs Vasitha. It can also cause an apparent shift in the mark of the moon.

Thus, none of the observations in the Mahabharata require any huge meteorite impact. The kind of meteor impact which can disturb the Earth-Moon system strong enough to reduce the half-period of the moon to 13 days, will certainly also cause devastating impacts on earth like Tsunamis and terrible loss of life all over the world. Moreover, it will cause a global shift in the apparent positions of all the constellations and stars of earth, and not just the Pole star and Arundhati-Vasistha alone. Because, if earth changes its orientation / spin axis vector due to any impact and the resultant  momentum transfer, everyone on Earth will be seeing the sky in a different shifted up-vector, and it will cause ALL the stars in the sky of earth to shift, not just one or two local stars. 

If shifts happen to just one or to stars, it has to be atmospheric disturbances and not any shift in Earth's orientation.

However small meteor entry to Earth atmosphere, which burns out on entry before hitting earth can cause similar atmospheric disturbances. The meteor descriptions in Mahabharata are closer to such a scenario.

Again, a tilt in the earth's orientation (due to impact and momentum-exchange) cannot cause any relative change in the position of Arundhati vs Vasistha due to parallax effects. Because the diameter of earth is extremely small in comparison to the distance towards these  stars from earth or solar-system. Any tilt in the earth's orientation will only cause a shift in the position of both Arundhati and Vasistha along with ALL other stars in the sky of Earth. Thus, any apparent momentary change in the relative position of Arundhati vs Vasistha has to be due to atmospheric disturbances, which can also cause the mark on the moon to apparently shift.

Hence the amplitude of the impact that your co-researcher scientist (Joachim Seifert) mentioned as occurring in 3136 BCE needs to be examined. Many low level impacts do occur every now and then. But none of them were big enough to cause any big disturbances in the Earth-Moon system so as to cause a shortening of the Moon's half period to 13 years or to cause the earth's orientation to wobble.

You also know that the prevalent Yuga of Mahabharata is just 5 year long. Panchvarshiya Yuga. The total duration of the Chatur Yugas were redefined to be bigger and bigger, as we see it within Mahabharata itself as 12000 years (Markandeya-Samvada, Vana Parva). Later this 12000 years was multiplied by 360 to give rise to 43,20,000 year long Yuga (Shanti Parva). These large Yugas (like 43,20,000 years long) have no relevance in Bharatiya pre-History, in my view and have to be taken as a mathematical construct to compute theoretically recurring planetary alignments only.

Hence, dating of Kurukshetra War and Rama's birth based on the later expanded Chatur Yuga definition has no relevance, in my view. Even otherwise, the verses describing the Jataka of Rama are found to be later additions and hence removed from the critical edition of Ramayana. Rama is mentioned in the 10th Mandala of Rgveda. Samtanu too is mentioned as contemporary in the 10th Mandala of Rgveda. Hence both are more or less contemporary to the 10th Mandala of Rgveda. Between Samtanu to Parikshit is only 5 generations or 125 years. Parikshit was born a year after the Kurukshetra War. Hence Samtanu and Rama can be dated to around 125 years older to Kurukshetra War. Even otherwise Vasistha was the priest of Rama. Vasistha's son Shakthi, his son Parasara. Parasara's son Vyasa is a contemporary of Vichitravirya and Bhishma and like a grandfather to the Pandavas. Thus in both ways Rama cannot be dated far away in 5000 BCE or 5114 BCE. 

The more important question here is the dating of the Vedang Jyotisha. The late AK Kaul has dated it to 1400 BCE using internal evidence of Vedanga Jyotisha itself. 

If we go by 1400 BCE, then the Kurukshetra War period has to be a few centuries earlier to 1400 BCE since it exhibits some basic features of a developing Vedanga Jotisha. In this case Kurukshetra war period has to be around 1504 BCE (like that done by Krishna Kumar R) or 1793 BCE (like that done by Dr Ashok Bhatnagar). The dates beyond 3000 BCE are then far away from the 1400 BCE date of Vedanga Jyotisha. But of course, if there is an older  date for Vedanga Jyotisha based on its own internal references or by some other means, a rethink is possible here. Hence I need to know what is your date of Vedanga Jyotisha?

The oscillatory theory of precession is interesting. That is what I can say at the current moment.

However I don't see wide acceptance of an oscillatory precision in scientific parlance as against the cyclic precession taking around 25,772 years to make one cycle. Most of the scientists with whom I discussed after seeing your talk, said that the case of a cyclic precession of earth is a more-or-less settled matter.  

The same thing I said in my previous email to you on 14th October. 

Earth is basically a spin-top. Like anything that spins, it has to exhibit a cyclic precession by its very basic nature. There may be other pendular / oscillatory movements caused by the sun's movement around the Milky Way Galaxy. I am not ruling that out. But such pendular motions cannot nullify the precession movement of earth. Not only Earth, but any planet which spins, has to preccess due to its angular momentum and the forces acting on it due to the Earth-Moon system tug forces and due to other minor external forces like the tiny forces exerted on it by other planets and planet configurations. Hence, any pendular / oscillatory movement due to the sun has to be superimposed on the precession movement of Earth to understand the sky configuration or the Kalachakra.

The former cannot cancel out or conceal the latter.

Regards
Jijith






Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
Former Scientist ISRO,
Founder: Dharma Digital, AncientVoice
Dharma Digital:- Dharmic revival through holograms, virtual worlds and digital technologies 
AncientVoice:- World's 1st and Largest Veda-Puruana-Itihasa wiki portal website with 23700 plus pages

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 at 00:27, Jayasree Saranathan <jayasree....@gmail.com> wrote:
Dear Mr Jijith, 

Thanks for your congratulations.

For your information, there is no new finding done by me. The date of Kali Yuga is followed by us for all these millennia and is used in dating inscriptions and from that I deduced the year of Mahabharata date as per the 35 year gap given in the text. All that I did was validation of the year through primary sources of evidence. I didn't discover a year.

Secondly, the cosmic impact is understandable from the oral tradition that continues to exist in Tamil, of Krishna doing tarpan well before the arrival of Amavasya. If you have seen the Tamil movie "Karnan" then also you would have known. I only explained by my hand gestures how Trayodaśī Amavasya is impossible to happen, and if it all it happens, under what circumstances it can happen. The events that unfold since the beginning of Krishna leaving Upaplavya describe these circumstances.  

Your questions and doubts make me understand that you have not listened to my lecture. 
All your questions are answered there.

Anyway quick replies:

# On PVNR's version of rejecting Surya Siddhanta and sticking to Drik : 
Lahiri ayanamsa works for now and Vedic / Surya Siddhanta works for zero ayanamsa. Check by yourself with any date and with all the ayanamsa to see this. I explained in the lecture why only at two points of time - now and zero ayanamsa. 
Drik works for the time under consideration. Parasara's Drik can not be used for now. What is Drik today is not valid even a century later. What is Drik in Mahabharata time must be used for deciphering that date. Zero ayanamsa of Surya Siddhanta / Vedic astronomy was the Drik of Kali yuga / Mahabharata time. That is why it comes into picture to decipher the date. I deciphered all the events as per traditional and calendric dates using this. Did anyone get the date right for Kali Yuga by the models they use? Kali Yuga date and the calendric cycles that started then are the tests of reliability for the model one uses. Only Surya Siddhanta / Vedic model passes the test. Explained with graphs.

# On Mr. Ashok Bhatanagar's version  on equinox and solstices: Is the equinox - solstice of the 5-year Yuga same as those simulated on astronomy software? I explained this part also. Did he or any one construct the 5-year Yuga of the Mahabharata period? For that you need to know the equinoctial position at that time. More importantly one needs to know that its is not western tropical. 

# On what scientists say about precession: 
If you want to reject Vedic version, no one stops you, but the fact of the matter is that the Mahabharata date cannot be simulated in the current model of precession. Another fact is that only a society that had lived for more than 3600 years could have known that the equinox does not always precess. The Vedic society had lived for so long, and longer than that, but western science has only 100 years of data on precession. Explained all these and more in the lecture. 

# More importantly, why do we use ayanamsa for our horoscopes even today? If you find out the answer for this, you will know that Vedic sages had known something that modern science had not yet known. Explained these also. 

# I raised  a question, that we use ayanamsa for everything - finds it ingrained in month- seasons such that they don't change - but use a model for dating the Mahabharata that doesn't incorporate ayanamsa. Why? 

# No comments on your 3rd and 4th paragraph as there is a huge gap between us on what we are talking about precession.

# What does the collaborator scientist say? 
Precession is not his cup of tea, but my son is an astronomer who has taught precession to undergraduates  and continues to use the precession theory for his satellite projects. He agrees in principle with the Vedic model of equinoxes, because he concedes that science is continually evolving and not static. He is aware of the anomalies, giving rise to doubts on the current model of precession. He knows its application for current / Drik because it is the solution for space probes, satellite positioning and more BUT not meant for extrapolating to the past. The n-body problem comes in that context. Do you know the current orientation of the earth? It is not precessing, it is moving forward since 2000. The causes are internal to the earth - which violates the luni-solar pull of the precession theory. Couple of evidence I cited in the lecture, which if grasped, will make one understand that a new branch of Physics is waiting to be discovered. Already people have started working on it. I wanted my son to work on it, but with his current commitments, he has shared Vedic insights with his friends who work on precession. The race for a Nobel has started. 

# You want to know about the geological and the meteorological records for the Hastinapura event. I suggest you first gather the evidence for the event from the text of the Mahabharata as I did. Then you will understand the question you asked.

Hope I clarified.

Regards, 
Jayasree


On Thu, Oct 14, 2021 at 10:48 PM Jijith Nadumuri Ravi <jiji...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 22, 2021, 2:34:32 PMOct 22
to Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear Mr. Jijith, 

Thanks for taking time to watch my lecture. 

At the outset I would like to state that there is far more scientific research taking place in too many fields than what we deal within our circle.

# This earth- moon system disturbance has already been detected in other events. In Hastinapura, the earth regained its orientation in 2 days, in the Burckel event in 2 weeks - all these are deduced on the basis of paleo-climatic proxies by scientists. 

# For what happened with the moon, we have to go by what is stated in the Mahabharata. If you have read my 2019 book, or my blogs of 2020 Dec- 2021 Jan, you would know where that is traceable. 

# Not the first time we come across a disturbance to the moon in the Hindu- Vedic texts. In Raivata manvantara, the fall of Revati by the kick of the sage Rtavak and the subsequent return to the original path by the moon is suggestive of a simultaneous cosmic hit on the earth-moon in a distant past, by which we come to know that the early society had noticed a change in the path of the moon and a return to the path in course of time. I did a video in my series on Indic Past.   https://youtu.be/x5OoX4NHXI4  

# I want to clarify that we have not done any talk or programme together and I was the first one to have talked about the atmospheric refraction theory for describing Arundhati observation in my 2019 ebook critiquing Mr. Oak's Mahabharata. Can be read here:

That theory is based on the after-effect of the meteor crash.
That refraction theory was based on the negative refraction which is IMPOSSIBLE in Nature.
I reasoned out that the plasma trail or the extreme heat conditions at the time of crash of the extra-terrestrial object caused a momentary deviation in the refractive index at which time the anomalous appearances were seen. 
I produced maps with the help of my son in his simulator. For a quick go-through, you can check this Jayasree Saranathan: Arundhati (Alcor) shifted position, so did Dhruva (Polaris) (Part 14: Mahabharata date) 

Now after my interaction with Dr. Seifert, I came to know that momentary rocking of the earth can cause such appearances of the celestial sphere momentarily. The canterbury event was one such instance which he had described in his paper here: Page 5 and 6 (PDF) CLIMATE PATTERN RECOGNITION IN THE LATE-TO-END HOLOCENE (550 AD TO 1650 AD, PART 7) (researchgate.net)
If you interact with meteor-experts you will know more. 

# After my discussion with him on the nature of 75 + nimittas given by Vyasa to Dritharashtra and 20 + by Karna to Krishna, I could get scientific reason for each and every one of them - all related to the entry of a space object through the atmosphere and crash- landing-  which you will read my upcoming book on validating the year of Mahabharata (3136 BCE). You are welcome to critique it. 

# On the Yuga issue, the 5 year yuga calendar is decipherable and done by me in my 2019 book and also posted in my blog Jayasree Saranathan: Deducing the beginning of the 5-year Yuga period in Mahabharata. (Part 3: Mahabharata date)

To understand yuga, we have to start from the basics, so it is not possible to write here. I have  a 50 page chapter in my upcoming book, for clarifying all the issues around the Yugas. For now, you can start reading my series. One of the topics of Yuga yoked by Dharma and adharma: Jayasree Saranathan: Sandhya, Sandhyamsa and the entry of Kali in Dharma Yuga scale. (Supplement to Mahabharata date series - 7) 

Kali Maha Yuga computation is used by us even now, and epigraphically proven too, so can't be ignored in dating Mahabharata.  

# Earth doesn't behave like a spin top, but a gyroscope in zero gravity space whose orientation can never change. There is an experiment in the Space station showing that. 
I have given evidence for the absence of axial precession of the earth from archao-astronomy. 

We seem to get stuck with what is taught in textbooks, and not keep in tune with the ever evolving surprises in science. Some of them  were listed out by me in the 4th chapter of my 5 part paper published last year. Can be read here    

One important phenomenon is happening now on the earth that is explainable in the Vedic oscillatory model. The last time it happened, the sages had written it as the Fall of Nahusha. Now again Nahusha is pushing Agastya, sarpa, sarpa, and he is going to fall down soon. I didn't have time to explain that part in the lecture, but will do a short video on that after I publish my book next month.

The present rate of movement of Nahusha's palanquin is 15 mt per year, It was 38 mt, 130 years ago when the journey started. Only in the last 20 years, some people have started watching this movement. The day the speed gets reduced, the scientific community will wake up and work on it which would lead to the re-discovery of Vedic concept of oscillatory equinox. Only after that we, the Indians will wake up and say we already said so.

With regards, 
Jayasree

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi

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Oct 22, 2021, 11:40:55 PMOct 22
to Jayasree Saranathan, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear Dr Jayasree ji

You mentioned the following:-
# I want to clarify that we have not done any talk or programme together and I was the first one to have talked about the atmospheric refraction theory for describing Arundhati observation in my 2019 ebook critiquing Mr. Oak's Mahabharata. Can be read here:

I did not say we did a talk or programme together. I am only mentioning the email exchanges. If my memory is correct, you first contacted me based on my writings in the website AncientVoice, which I established in November 2010. I don't remember when exactly our interaction started but I can search my emails and AncientVoice Forum logs to find out when it started and how it proceeded and what all topics we have discussed.

But regarding your 2019 eBook claim, I wish to draw your attention to two of my online interactions with Nilesh in 2017.

I mentions about atmospheric effects as the cause of Arundhati-Vasistha relative position shift and the shift in the mark on the moon as early as 1/12/2017

First in Subhash Kak's FB Wall

Myself (Jijith) to Nilesh
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I have mentioned  the same in an FB Debate with Nilesh organized by Indic Academy 30/7/2017, 4 months earlier too.
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If i search my emails in Indic Academy I can get me mentioning the same atmospheric effects as the cause of Arundhati-Vasistha relative position shift and the mark on the moon shift even earlier too. In fact, I am telling this since the first time I met Nilesh in 2016 July during Neera Misra ji's Indraprastha conference at Delhi where both myself, Nilesh and Dr Ashok Bhatnager presented our research papers.

Now since you are denying that I have not told you about these atmospheric effects I am having doubt whether I did tell (i.e. emailed) you this. You may be true. I will search my email records to check this.  But the fact remains that I am telling this since 2016 and more prominently since 2017 and certainly earlier than 2019.

In your response I noted the following:-
  1. You are not revealing your date for Vedanga Jyotisha. It is an important piece of the puzzle and I humbly submit that you please provide it or arrive at a date for it by your own unique way of dating texts.
  2. You mentioned Earth will retain its orientation even if there is an impact. That is scientifically impossible in my limited knowledge of planetary science. Any disturbance will upset the Earth-Moon system from its existing equilibrium. New equilibrium will certainly be achieved. But there is 0.0000000000001% chance that this new-equilibrium will be the same as the older equilibrium. There will certainly be some permanent change - like an fraction of a degree change in the spin axis, precession axis etc
  3. The restoration of new equilibrium certainly take time depending on the intensity of the disturbance
  4. You did not give a counter argument when I mentioned that change in the orientation of earth will cause shifts in the entire sky with all its stars as a whole in contrast to changes in the location of a few local stars. I am eager to hear your counter argument regarding that.
Regards
Jijith

Jijith Nadumuri Ravi
Former Scientist ISRO,
Founder: Dharma Digital, AncientVoice
Dharma Digital:- Dharmic revival through holograms, virtual worlds and digital technologies 
AncientVoice:- World's 1st and Largest Veda-Puruana-Itihasa wiki portal website with 23700 plus pages

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 23, 2021, 1:05:00 AMOct 23
to Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear Mr. Jijith, 

Please check your mails. We have not interacted anytime on Mr. Oak's book or atmospheric refraction. The last time we exchanged mails was when you wanted me to refrain from questioning Mr. Elst for his claim that Rama was not a reality. That was way back in 2012 or so when Mr. Koch and Mr. Elst claimed that the Indians borrowed 'rashi' concept from the Greeks.

On atmospheric refraction: You may have talked about it for long, even I did, but I made a specific observation in my 2019 book about the right-ward shift of Dhruva, Mars and Arundhati- Vasishtha (A-V) alignment which can not happen under the  normal rule of atmospheric refraction. In normal course the celestial object will appear to shift to the left, towards the zenith. Only in the case of negative refractive index - which is impossible in Nature- the shift towards right, to the horizon can happen. The negative atmospheric refractive value can happen under extreme heat and rarity of atmosphere near the ground. Possible for a few moments when an extra terrestrial object hits the ground. 

# point 1:
Vedanga Jyothisha offers the framework of rules to construct the 5 year Yuga. Based on that we can create for the current time too. I created for the Mahabharata time. The basic requisite is the knowledge of tropical position of the sun. That's were ayanamsa comes into picture. Kali Yuga starting at zero ayanamsa gives us the location of the tropical sun during Kali yuga / Mahabharatha, based on which I constructed the 5 year yuga of Mahabharata time. 

# Dating Mahabharatha requires a 3- discipline approach- history, epigraphy and astrology. Year name and year number are crucial for zeroing on a particular year. One should know the Kali year for dates of Kali yuga of 5122 years now. Mahabharata coming 35 years before Kali Yuga gives the year. That was Krodhi.

Now we should know in which of the 5 years of the 5 year yuga, Krodhi was running. I deduced it in my book and posted in my blog link given in my previous mail. The ayanamsa of that time being zero, it needed no correction. I have shown how all the planetary references fall in place for the year Krodhi, for zero ayanamsa of vedic ayanamsa. 

# point 2 and 3:
I go by the version and findings of experts in meteor- hit field. Those information form a separate chapter in my upcoming book.

# point 4:

How could someone see a shift in the entire sky? 
It was palpable in the case of a few such as the tilt A-V, not in the entire constellation of Saptarishis (Ursa Major) which is too huge and which is seen changing direction within hours. And one must have been watching the sky at that moment. 

A-V and Dhruva are always watched as a sequence (Arundhati Darshana nyaya). Vyasa had taken a look at them when he found something wrong around him. The sound of thunder in cloudless sky ( sonic boom) must must alerted him to look at the sky. It is also very much likely he was doing evening twilight oblations to the Saptarishis. The crash happened at sunset time. In the same conversation he says the Saptarishis were obscured by the glowing red crown of 2 planets. 

This solves the issue. Mars and Venus were low in west horizon on that month of Karthika. Direction of Scorpio sinking in the west is easily palpable (I am a regular sky watcher right from my 8th year). So the tilt of Mars was palpable. 

The red crown of the planets is NOx that is abundantly produced in the case of an object's entry from outer space. In the dark surrounding at that time, the reddish hue was palpable on the two shining objects - Venus and Mars on his left ( west) after he looked at north. The crash kicked off atmospheric turbulence immediately which blurred the saptarishi constellation right in front of his eyes. 

Every description of Vyasa was discussed with the meteor expert who confirmed the crash. That appears in the GISP2 data /graphs. 3136 bce was the only event among the four of Piora oscillation, that was not historically documented until I brought to the attention of the world. 

Regards, 
Jayasree
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Jijith Nadumuri Ravi

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Oct 23, 2021, 11:01:42 AMOct 23
to Jayasree Saranathan, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear  Dr Jayasree ji

I go by your word that you have independently developed the idea of atmospheric aberrations to explain Arundhati-Vasistha etc. 
In my searches so far, I got a trail of communicating this to Dr Manish Pandit ji but not to you.

But you mentioned Dr Koeanraad Elst. Since your comments create confusion among the readers of this group, I need to clarify my stand. 

My support and opposition to every individual researcher including Nilesh is not personal, only issue based support or opposition. Thus, I may support a particular idea of a researcher, all the while opposing another idea of the same researcher. I don't extrapolate any opposition to just one of the ideas of a researcher, into rejecting the researcher as a whole, or into rejecting all of his / her good ideas which are reasonable or endorsable. I also don't do the reverse:- because one idea of a researcher is good, I don't automatically assume all of his / her ideas are good or reasonable or endorsable. 

In my searches, I encountered the email you mentioned regarding Dr Koeanraad Elst. 

The subject of that email was not at all Sri Rama

My previous email to you in this thread itself makes it amply clear that I consider Rama as a historic personality

Of Course I don't accept those dates, which in my view, are the exaggerated dates of Rama such as those place Rama at 12008 BCE or 5114 BCE. But, that is based on solid data that i described in my previous mail (Rama Jataka rejected by Valmiki Ramayana Critical edition by observing that it is later addition, the presence of Rama in 10th Mandala Rgveda along with Samtanu as contemporaries, the generation gap between Samtanu and Parikshit which is around 120 years and so many other reasons). 

Dr Elst was one of the most vocal researchers who argued with solid evidence for the Sri Rama temple at Ayodhya. When the entire leftist ecosystem with all the Indian newspapers aligned on the opposite side, by saying that there is no evidence for Sri Rama temple at Ayodhya and that whatever evidence got from Ayodhya was planted by the Sangh Parivar / Karsevaks, he was one of the researchers who stood against that collective lie!!

Here are the two strong books Dr Elst has authored in support of Sri Rama's Temple at Ayodhya:-

1
AYODHYA: The Case Against the Temple. 2002. - Koenraad Elst, Voice of India, New Delhi
http://voiceofdharma.org/books/acat/
In this book he collects all evidences for the Ram Temple at Ayodhya and criticizes historians like Irfan Habib and the newspapers for falsifying evidence 

2
Ayodhya And After: Issues Before Hindu Society, Koenraad Elst. 1991
Some extracts from the forward of this book:-
The Ayodhya movement, which wants to reintegrate the sacred place of Ram Janmabhoomi into the living Hindu tradition by building a Mandir on it, is at the same time an invitation to the Muslim Indians to reintegrate themselves into the society and the culture from which their ancestors were cut off by fanatical rulers and their thought police, the theologians. It is thus an exercise in national integration. While Islamic resurgence may pose a physical threat to Hindu society, the deeper challenge and the sharpest disdain are coming from the Left-leaning westernized (short : Nehruvian) establishment... read on

An early writing of Dr Elst arguing for Ram Janmabhumi, whose link i can't find in quick search is mentioned below:-
Ram Janmabhoomi vs Babri Masjid, a Case Study in Hindu-Muslim Conflict. Dr Elst, Koenraad. 1990
I don't know how a person who wrote all this can deny the historical existence of Rama?

-

Leaving this aside, when I look at your Asteroid impact based Earth-Moon disturbance theory (1) and your older simple atmospheric disturbance theory (2) (which I too independently developed in my writings since 2017), I prefer to go with (2) atmospheric disturbance theory. But you seem to have abandoned theory 2 and are leaning more on theory 1.

Even if theory 1 is true, it will be difficult to convince the global research community to accept it because it involves huge investigations into the after-effects of such an impact in 3136 BCE. You are also not clear if the impact occurred on the Moon or Earth. If yes, do specify. If it occurred on the moon, which is the corresponding impact crater on the Moon? If it was on Earth, which is the corresponding impact crater on the Earth? This event will not just make the moon lose a tithi and have its half-orbit reduced to 13 days, but it will cause many geological, seismic, climatological and tidal activities on Earth and will affect the normal life of people, even death due to the fury of nature. Terrible loss of life due to geological shocks cannot be ruled out. Did any of that happen in 3136 BCE which is your year for the 18 day war? 

Mahabharata does not mention any Tsunami or huge loss of life due to Earthquake during the 18 days of the War.  But interestingly, huge loss of life occurred in the 18 War itself! But Mahabharata does mention Tsunami-like events in Dwaraka, but it is in the 36th  / 35th years after the 18 day war. Finally, how did the moon magically regain its original orbital period? Ideally if the moon's half orbit period is reduced to 13 days due to impacts, it ought to continue like this for years unless another equal and opposite impact miraculously corrects it, or it get corrected when the Earth-Moon system re-established another equilibrium in which the Moon's orbit period magically regained the the precise original state. These are my genuine concerns about this theory 1 and I am not getting a clear answer for this.

If there is a shift in the orientation of Earth we will see all the stars, planets in the celestial sky shifted, like how when an airplane changes its orientation we see everything seen through its window shifting orientation. Change in the orientation of Earth is a global event affecting the terrestrial sky as a whole. How can it affect few local stars like Arundhati-Vasistha? 

If you are talking about the parallax effect, the distance from Earth to Arundhati (Alcor) and Vasitha (Mizar) is 80 light years. Their angular gap is 12' (12 minutes). The distance between them is around 17800 AU. Diameter of Earth is 12742 km. The length of Earth's orbital ellipse (major-axis) is 2 AU = 29,91,95,741.4 km. Compared to the distance from Earth to Arundhati-Vasistha (80 LY), their separation (17800 AU) is miniscule. Both the diameter of Earth (12742 km) and the length (major-axis) (2 AU) of its orbit is negligible compared to the distance from Earth to Arundhati-Vasistha (80 LY). Hence the parallax effects on Arundhati Vasistha due to anything happening on Earth-Moon system or solar system is negligible, not good enough to shift the relative position of Arundhati with respect to Vasistha.

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Theory 2 can be caused by small, normal meteors entering into Earth's atmosphere causing atmospheric refractive index aberrations, red glows etc. In fact it can explain almost every anomaly that Vyasa lists out to Dhritarashtra. Since this is a mere small sized meteor event (a dozen or dozens of shooting stars for example) it will not require to challenge the entire global scientific community to convince that such meteor showers did occur close to the 18 day Kurukshetra War (whenever it occurred, of course). 

Here I remember an advice I gave to Dr Vedaveer Arya ji when he come up with the Chronology Revision which proposed to modify the date of Buddha Nirvana advancing it from 483 BCE to 1865 BCE, thereby advancing the date of Mahapadma Nanda and Chandragupta Mourya into the past so as to support his Kurukshetra War date of 3162 BCE. This shift is required because the gap between Parikshit and Mahapadma Nanda is only 1015 years as per Vishnu Purana (1050 year as per Vayu Purana) and 1500 as per one version of Matsya Purana). His objective was noble. But when he mentioned to me that this will also require the revision of the entire world chronology - the chronology of the Greeks, all European chronologies, the revision of the date of Jesus and Muhammad, the Chinese and Mongolian chronologies etc, I said the same thing to him:- this is an uphill task and even if his chronology revision theory is true, the matter will not be settled by the world wide chronologist researchers even in a decade.   

Science demands that whenever two explanations are possible to solve a scientific puzzle, you need to select the simplest one, not the complex one.

I am nobody to criticize you and I have no interest in opposing your developing theory. But, this is my final word to you as a well wisher. 

Regards
Jijith

Jayasree Saranathan

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Oct 23, 2021, 11:51:24 AMOct 23
to Jijith Nadumuri Ravi, bhAratIya-vidvat-pariShad भारतीय-विद्वत्परिषद्
Dear Mr. Jijith, 

Thanks for the clarification.
Since I am busy with my manuscript, I am not able to write in detail.
Whatever I have written in this thread is given in detail in my blogs - the links given earlier. 
The 13th tithi amavasya heralded the concept of Bodhayana amavasya. That is expressed in a story form for ages and found in the Jyothisha texts in Tamil (attached). Written in my book and in my blog also. 
Tithi is different from a day.
The moon's recovery went on for sometime. Mahabharata gives evidence for anomalous movement  till the 69th day after the crash. After that we have no textual record. 
Only scientists like Dr. Seifert will elaborate on it, based on the proxies as was done for the Canterbury event. 
This is not the first time such an event had happened.  
25 such events on the earth with a few on the moon too, have happened so far in the Holocene. 
I go with the view of the experts on meteor studies.
The bottom-line is the crash has happened. 

My paper generated a lot of responses from academia.edu on the probable sites in Europe that match with the Biblical Flood date given by Dr. Hales. 
You will read them in my book. 

For the rest of the topics, epigraphy and the continuing use of Kali Yuga by the Hindus cannot be set aside in any dating work on the Indic past.

PS. Even the Ketu-sthala in Keezha Perum Pallam is a meteor-hit site. How many people know of this? 
The probable date of the crash is 7th century CE which was recorded in a Chinese chronicle. 
The temple was built in the 10th century.
Since I could not find textual evidence from the local area, they have just kept it at bay. This is like looking for primary evidence in the concerned site. 
I am saying this to convey that the meteor experts follow a protocol for identifying a meteor crash. 
Foremost is the historical mention or documentation in some form. 
Mahabharata offers an excellent documentation and even authenticates some of the derivations made from other crashes. 
 
Regards, 
Jayasree 
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