Accents in the Rig Veda.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

Is there uniformity in markings of the Udatta, annudatta and swarita in the various recension or manuscripts of the Rig Veda.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Generally, the marking of accents in the manuscripts of the Rigveda is the same in manuscripts, except, as reported by Witzel, the Kashmiri manuscripts mark the Udātta, while other manuscripts mark the Svarita and Anudātta.  Staal reports that the recitation of the Kramapāṭha of the Rigveda in Kerala shows a distinct pronunciation of the Udātta.  The actual oral rendition of the accents of the Rigveda is slightly different in different regions of India.  Studies of the oral tradition by Wayne Howard's study of Veda recitation in Varanasi and Frits Staal's study of the Nambudiri Veda recitation and others may be useful in providing information regarding local variation in recitation of different Vedas, including the Rigveda.  The Keral pronunciation "धियो यो न: प्रचोदयाळ्" is one well known instance of regional variation.

Madhav Deshpande

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Madhav Deshpande]

I am attaching here an article by Michael Witzel on some unknown systems of marking Vedic accents that may be of use to some.

Madhav Deshpande

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

In the event the accents are unmarked can they be reconstructed with the help of Paninian grammar.
In short had we had recensions of the Rig Veda without accent markings would we have been in a position to reconstruct the accents independently.

The reason for asking this question is I have at hand a manuscript of the compositions of the tabla without accent markings.  I need to go about marking the accents.  How far can Sanskrit help me achieve this task?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

Thank you very much for the valuable information you are rendering.  

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 22, 2017 8:28 PM, "Madhav Deshpande" <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

Is Udatta,. Annudatta and swarita accents or intonations.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Panini's rules are not specific for any one Veda or Shakha. One needs to look at the Pratishakhya specific to a given Veda and Shakha for details that are unique to that text. The different Vedas and Shakhas differ somewhat in accentuation and sandhis etc. 

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 9:51 AM Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars,

Is Udatta,. Annudatta and swarita accents or intonations.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 22, 2017 9:22 PM, "Achyut Karve" <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

Thank you very much for the valuable information you are rendering.  

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 22, 2017 8:28 PM, "Madhav Deshpande" <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

I am attaching here an article by Michael Witzel on some unknown systems of marking Vedic accents that may be of use to some.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

Generally, the marking of accents in the manuscripts of the Rigveda is the same in manuscripts, except, as reported by Witzel, the Kashmiri manuscripts mark the Udātta, while other manuscripts mark the Svarita and Anudātta.  Staal reports that the recitation of the Kramapāṭha of the Rigveda in Kerala shows a distinct pronunciation of the Udātta.  The actual oral rendition of the accents of the Rigveda is slightly different in different regions of India.  Studies of the oral tradition by Wayne Howard's study of Veda recitation in Varanasi and Frits Staal's study of the Nambudiri Veda recitation and others may be useful in providing information regarding local variation in recitation of different Vedas, including the Rigveda.  The Keral pronunciation "धियो यो न: प्रचोदयाळ्" is one well known instance of regional variation.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars,

Is there uniformity in markings of the Udatta, annudatta and swarita in the various recension or manuscripts of the Rig Veda.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

[rniyengar]

Anudātta, Swarita, Udātta (Asu)

This topic would be of perennial interest in the context of Vedic cultural practices, not just limited to RV. I like to present a few points that may seem quite tangential to what is being discussed in the thread, but which I sincerely feel are relevant to Vedic Studies. The dictionary meanings given for accent and intonation are insufficient to characterize the Vedic ASU-triplet.  My argument is, it is this triplet which became seven in the case of the Sāmaveda. Perhaps in the Yajus we can find the transition between the three and the seven. I have read (correction requested) that the SV is textually same as RV, the difference being in its rendering (chanting performance) only. This provides a clue to what originally ASU could have been. This is the origin of frequency modulation which forms the foundation of classical music. This is not a new finding any way! While expert opinions on what constitutes ASU are many, attempts at objective definitions are scarce. I know of one fundamental research work

Ragas of Karnatic Music, by N.S.Ramachandran  Univ. Of Madras 1938.

He discusses (Tamil Nadu) RV chanting at length and concludes if S=1, then A=8/9 and U=10/9 in terms of their basic frequencies as harmonic sound waves. This is based on concepts of music but that need not deter one if one likes to map regional variations of ASU in RV. This does not exhaust all the questions related to RV tradition but points to one important discriminator which in oral recitation gets confused with loudness and regional style in pronunciation of the aksharas and the time wise rendering or speed. When ASU text markings remain same but rendered differently, we can suspect that in the above triplet (8/9, 1, 10/9) the first and/or the third values have been altered. Does this or any other attested triplet style remain stable during a long recitation? This is a moot question. Only systematic spectral analysis of recordings using modern mathematical methods can show a way forward.

Thanks

RN Iyengar

 

On Saturday, July 22, 2017 at 10:21:46 PM UTC+5:30, Achyut Karve wrote:

Dear Scholars,

Is Udatta,. Annudatta and swarita accents or intonations.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 22, 2017 9:22 PM, "Achyut Karve" <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

Thank you very much for the valuable information you are rendering.  

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 22, 2017 8:28 PM, "Madhav Deshpande" <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

I am attaching here an article by Michael Witzel on some unknown systems of marking Vedic accents that may be of use to some.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 7:36 AM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

Generally, the marking of accents in the manuscripts of the Rigveda is the same in manuscripts, except, as reported by Witzel, the Kashmiri manuscripts mark the Udātta, while other manuscripts mark the Svarita and Anudātta.  Staal reports that the recitation of the Kramapāṭha of the Rigveda in Kerala shows a distinct pronunciation of the Udātta.  The actual oral rendition of the accents of the Rigveda is slightly different in different regions of India.  Studies of the oral tradition by Wayne Howard's study of Veda recitation in Varanasi and Frits Staal's study of the Nambudiri Veda recitation and others may be useful in providing information regarding local variation in recitation of different Vedas, including the Rigveda.  The Keral pronunciation "धियो यो न: प्रचोदयाळ्" is one well known instance of regional variation.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 5:29 AM, Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Scholars,

Is there uniformity in markings of the Udatta, annudatta and swarita in the various recension or manuscripts of the Rig Veda.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+...@googlegroups.com.

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

In a Homa you may notice the frequency pitch of the Mantras will increase sharply for the Poornahuti. The ending Mantra for Poornahuti will have very high frequency. It feels like the priests are almost screaming in high pitch.  Was this a rule in the ancient Yaagas or recent? What is the reason for increasing frequency so much?

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[S. L. Abhyankar]

Increasing the pitch during पूर्णाहुति appeals to be a well-thought out concept. If the attention span of the audience would have diminished towards the end of the याग, increasing the pitch would be a way to rejuvenate the attention of the audience  

[Nagaraj Paturi]

This discussion is a digression from the ASU discussion. 

Let us be careful with the words pitch, frequency etc. 

Both svaras within an octave (such as mandra, madhya, taaraa ) and the octaves themselves and the the voice types voice ranges (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_type) such as tenor, dass etc. are issues of frequency. Loudness is amplitude. 

ASU, as Prof. Iyengar reminded from the books on history of Indian music, is an issue related to svaras within an octave. 

Voice range issue that is being pointed out here can be discussed as a different thread.  

On Sun, Jul 23, 2017 at 11:15 PM, S. L. Abhyankar <sl.abh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Increasing the pitch during पूर्णाहुति appeals to be a well-thought out concept. If the attention span of the audience would have diminished towards the end of the याग, increasing the pitch would be a way to rejuvenate the attention of the audience  

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bvparishat+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

This is an extract from my book 'Unveiling the Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology'

"The larynx plays an important role while intonating

vowels, as it helps in modulating the tone and pitch of

a vowel. The larynx moves sympathetically during

phonation of letters. However, during the process of

intonation, it has a key role to play, as it modulates

the pitch of the vowel sound. While intonating a

vowel downwards the larynx moves downwards and

while intonating a vowel upwards the larynx moves

upwards. Apart from the above, the vocal folds in the

larynx help in creating turbulence in the air, when it

passes over the vocal folds, thus producing sound."

Thus it is the larynx that is instrumental in intonating a vowel.  The larynx helps in lengthening of shortening the length of the resonator thus raising or lowering the pitch of the vowel.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

There was a discussion on svaras on BVP here.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

I am not Sanskrit literate.  If there is an English translation it would be helpful.

Secondly I have tried to describe the articulatory process or मध्यमा of Udatta and Anudatta.  This aspect does not seem to have been dwelt with in the reference of the previous discussions.  I would like scholars to dwell on the articulatory or Madhyama aspect among the Vaikhari, Madhyama, Pashyanti and Para.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

In my humble opinion if anyone wants to go deep diving into any ancient Sastra it is important to gain proficiency in Sanskrit. Translations may be there but they do not go deep. The Translator may also have his biases. Better read the original and understand it. There are many manuscripts without any translation. The researcher will miss all of them without Sanskrit proficiency.

Regards

 

-Venkatesh

[Nilakantha Dash]

Dear scholars, I feel like writing. Mr Achyut karve wants to know the rules that would help him putting accent (or some theoritical) marks on tabla notations. Musical books have marks on letters. They follow some different rule. Music notation marking is not applicable to Tabla also.

Udatta, anudatta and svarita of Veda, pratisakhya and paniniya siksa are different. Again there one may find anta, adi and madhya differences.

Again Madhyama, vaikhari, pashyanti and para are something different.

So I feel, these are three different methods and process related to  music, mantra chanting and speech grades.  Thank you.

Nilakantha Dash, Department of comp. Litt & India Studies, EFLU, Hyderabad-500061.
Mobile-09989353187

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks for trying to clearing the confusing mixing of ideas. 

You are bold. Please keep trying.

Thanks. 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Nilakantha Dash,

The three i.e.music, mantra chanting and speech grades appear to be different.  However that they are the product of a single mechanism i.e., the madhyama (articulation of speech sounds) in speech is what is important.  Does this mechanism operate in three discreet and different modes?  If so what are they?

It is important to note that Western Music evolved out of a string instrument mathematically.  That is not the case with Indian Classical Music. Indian Music evolved from recitation be it Rig Vedic, Sama Vedic or Yajur Vedic.  In other words the difference of forms in recitation of the Vedas is on account of a subtle differetiation in the use of the human voice organ which the Indians innovated.

Yadnyavalkya in his shiksha describes how musical notes could be produced with the help of the technique of Udatta, Annudatta and Swarita and in the process linked Rig Vedic recitation with Sama Vedic recitation.  With the Tabla the recitation is that which is used in the recitation of the Rig Veda.  The compositions of the Tabla are not sung. In this sense the recitation of the compositions are different from vocal music. 

In fact a detailed study of Indian Classical Music and of percussion instruments like the Pakhawaj, the Mridingum and the Tabla which have a language of their own will help analyse the recitation of the Vedas.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.   

On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 5:00 PM, Nilakantha Dash <dash.ni...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Raghava Akshintala]

Respected Scholars,

Below are articles on Vedic svaras that may be relevent to this discussion:

"Vedasvarasvaroopamu: On the significance of the Vedic Svara" (in Telugu) by late Sri Vishwanadha Acyutadeva Rayalu:

https://vedaravindamu.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/5-4-vedasvaraswaroopamu.pdf

"Svaras" by Sri Shriramana Sharma:

http://www.sanskritweb.net/sansdocs/svaras.pdf

Regards,

A Raghava Krishna

Akshintala Raghava Krishna
Savitr Software Services (P) Ltd.
www.savitr.com

[Madhav Deshpande]

In my opinion, the accents of Sanskrit need to be viewed in two different contexts, namely the accents of spoken colloquial Sanskrit, and the accents as they are rendered in the recitation of the Vedas.  The identification of the accents with musical notes like gandhāra etc. (as in Shriramana Sharma's document) and a more elaborate identification with musical notes in texts like the Nārada-Śikṣā represent musicalization of the recitational tradition over long periods of time.  The natural accents of spoken Sanskrit on the other hand, as described by Patañjali (and the Śaunakīya-Caturādhyāyikā) are relative high and low pitch levels within the range of a given person (the important term is samānayame = in the same key).  Two people speaking Sanskrit (or any other language for that matter) do not speak in the same key, and the women and children generally speak in a higher pitch, and yet their speech can reflect relative pitch differences.  The historical accent of Sanskrit begins with this natural relative pitch differences (high = udātta, low = anudātta, transition from high to low = svarita), but in the recitation of the Vedas, these differences were rendered in terms of musical notes.  Wayne Howard's study of the Sāmavedic recitation shows that different reciters evidently used different keys, and yet maintained relative differences between different notes.  In some of the modern recordings of Vedic recitation, I hear an accompanying instrument like a Veena, and that shows a full musicalization of the Vedic recitation.  To my perception, the Veda recitation in Maharashtra is not as musicalized as it appears to be in the South, and the range of high and low notes in Maharashtra seems to be smaller than that in the Southern recitation.

Madhav Deshpande

[Nagaraj Paturi]

What a treasure (Vedasvaraswaroopamu by Vishwanadha Acyutadeva Rayalu) you gifted to all the Telugu-knowing members Sri Raghava Akshintala garu! 

How I wish someone translated this into English, Hindi or Sanskrit!

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

Is there any article written on the use of the larynx in intonation.  For many years I was unable to exactly reason out the up and down movement of the larynx in speech until I discovered that this movement is on account intonation of vowels during speech.

If you have any references kindly share them.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Karve,

     I have attached a pdf of a modern introduction to articulatory phonetics.  This is a very comprehensive book on the subject.  Hope you find it useful.

Madhav Deshpande

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Shri Madhav Deshpande,

Thank you for the pdf.  It will help in aligning myself with contemporary thinking on the subject of articulation of speech.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nilakantha Dash]

Thanks Mr Achyut Karve  and  Prof Nagaraj Paturi. This discussion leads to many truth and contemporary knowledge. The book (pdf) sent by Prof Deshpande is a big book on the right subject.

I think it is better to listen some vedic chanting live. or some vedic prayer live (like the suprabhatam live done every morning in Venkateswaram temple of Tirupati for about 15 minutes - Kaushalya supraja-----). I know it is very difficult to stand there around 3.30 am. But it is once in a life-time experience. No recorded version is equal to listening live there what 7 vedic pundits chant. 

Thank you. 

[Raghava Akshintala]

Thank you Sri Nagaraj Paturi garu. Sri Vishwanadha Acyutadeva Rayalu was the elder son of the celebrated Kavi Samrat Sri Viswanatha Satyanarayana (who won Jnanpeeth Award for his book Ramayana Kalpavriksham). 

Sri Rayalu had conducted a deep study of Vedas and had a very unique insight. He had written several articles (in Telugu) and published them in 5 volumes titled "Vedaravindamu". The articles are available individually at https://vedaravindamu.wordpress.com/

I would also like to bring to notice of this august body of scholars another book that is relevant to this discussion, viz. Svarasiddhāntacandrikā of Srinivasa Yajvan, edited by Sri K. A. Sivaramakrishna Sastri and published in 1936 as part of “Annamalai University Sanskrit Series – 4”. This book is an exhaustive commentary on Pāṇini’s Svarasūtras.

The book is available for download at https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.313390

A text version of the introduction in English is available at https://vedaravindamu.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/sri-srinivasa-yajvas-svarasiddhantacandrika-introduction-in-english/ (please excuse typos).

Regards,

A Raghava Krishna

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks again for all such excellent sources. I am a great fan of Kavi Samrat Sri Viswanatha Satyanarayana (who won Jnanpeeth Award for his book Ramayana Kalpavriksham). But did not know that one of his sons contributed such great literature. 

Thanks.