visarga sandhi question

[vishal jaiswal]

Namaste, can someone point me to the sequence of rules from the Ashtadhyayi applied to form the following ,

I am puzzled because visarga in उच्चैः , etc is preceded by something other than अवर्ण 

उच्चैरुदात्तः

नीचैरनुदात्तः

Thanks,
Vishal

[Praveen R. Bhat]

Namaste Vishalji,

The rule is the most general that the sakAra at the end of the pada becomes रुँ रेफ। The visargasandhi is a kind of a misnomer in the sense that visarga was never born, though Laghu may categorise it as a visargasandhi.

उच्चैस् उदात्तः

=उच्चैर् उदात्तः                ८.२.६६ ससजुषो रुँः। (उपदेशेजनुनासिक इत्। तस्य लोपः)।

Kind rgds,

--Praveen R. Bhat

/* येनेदं सर्वं विजानाति, तं केन विजानीयात्। Through what should one know That owing to which all this is known! [Br.Up. 4.5.15] */

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Can उचैतुदात्तः be the proper form which the sandhi between उचैस् उदात्तः can take?

With regards,

Achyut Karve

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[vishal jaiswal]

Dhanyavaad Praveenji,

So the sandhi viccheda for the sutra is, 

उच्चैः उदात्तः ।

How did उच्चैस् come from उच्चैः ?

Very sorry if this sounds like a noob question !

Vishal

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[Praveen R. Bhat]

Namaste Vishalji,

On Mon, Mar 23, 2020 at 12:20 AM vishal jaiswal <tovisha...@gmail.com> wrote:

So the sandhi viccheda for the sutra is, 

उच्चैः उदात्तः ।

How did उच्चैस् come from उच्चैः ?

Very sorry if this sounds like a noob question !

Vishal

In a sandhi-kArya, you have to start from the pada with the suppratyaya ending considering what follows. When you start with a visarga ending उच्चैः instead of the avyaya which is originally उच्चैस्, you are already assuming that there is an अवसान or a full-stop/ pause. Then sandhi is not possible. However, when you know that सकार of उच्चैस् is followed by उकार of उदात्तः, there is no rule to substitute that सकार to विसर्ग but it is replaced by रेफ which never becomes a विसर्ग। That is why I said earlier that the name विसर्गसन्धि is misleading as विसर्ग was never there to become रेफ, सकार became रेफ|

When you do sandhi viccheda though, an अवसान/ pause is assumed between the two words, which is why sandhi is not done. In that case, the following happens with the standalone word उच्चैस् now:

उच्चैस् 

उच्चैरुँ                     ससजुषो रुँः।

उच्चैर्                      उपदेशेजनुनासिक इत्। तस्य लोपः।

उच्चैः।                     खरवसानयोर्विसर्जनीयः।  <-- You can't start here; else there is no way to go back in त्रिपादी।

I hope that helps.

[vishal jaiswal]

This definitely helps, thank you so much for your time, Praveenji !!!

So when we see a sutra with its sandhi vichheda, each shabda in that viccheda has already undergone transformation from its pratipaadik to reach its final form assuming there's avasana after it ?

Correct ?

Vishal

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[vishal jaiswal]

As an addendum to my reply above, citing the concrete example from the site,

http://ashtadhyayi.com/sutraani/

उच्चैरुदात्तः ।

१ । २ । २९ ।

उच्चैः उदात्तः ।

उच्चैः (अव्ययम्) , उदात्तः (प्रथमैकवचनम्)

So the above in the last line are derived final forms , each derivation followed by avasana?

Vishal

[Hnbhat B.R.]

First of all, one should learn sandhi before discussing Ashtadhyayi. This is my opinion.

Correct ?

Vishal

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[vishal jaiswal]

Bhatji, I have learnt sandhi as covered in the laghu.

Correct ?

Vishal

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Can the रु or रेफ in उचैर् उदात्तः or उचैरुदात्तः be phonated as murdhanya? 

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

रेफ is always मूर्धन्य.

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Dr. Bhat,

     The R̥k-Prātiśākhya (1.8, 10) classifies r̥ as a jihvāmūlīya "produced at the root of the tongue" and r as as either dantamūlīya produced at the root of the teeth" or barsvya "alveolar.  The Vājasaneyi-Prātiśākhya (1.65.68) classifies r̥ as jihvāmūlīya and r as dental.  The Śaunakīya Caturādhyāyikā (1.20, 28) holds the same view.  For the Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya (2.18, 41) both r̥ and r are alveolar.  It is in some Śikṣās, which are generally late compared to the Prātiśākhyas, the classification of r as a mūrdhanya emerges and becomes commonplace in Pāṇinian commentaries.

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Thank you Prof. Deshonde for clarification.

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[Hnbhat B.R.]

Sorry for the typo crept in the previous message.

[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Very interesting, prof. Deshpande ji.

In Malayalam we have two r's. Let me represent the "soft" r as  r (ര) and the "hard" r as ṟ (റ).  Kari (കരി) with the soft r means burnt wood and kaṟi (കറി) with the hard r is the curry we eat with rice or roti. To the Malayali, even to a four year old child, these two r's are very distinct and interchanging them can change the meaning of words.  The soft 'r' is pronounced with the tongue touching ("trilling") the place where the teeth and the roof of the mouth meet.  Not sure if it should be termed alveolar or dental.  The hard r is pronounced by touching the tongue farther back, "trilling" the roof of the mouth (not sure what to call it, mūrdhanya or jihvāmūlīya; maybe, I would call it just "retroflex").  Maybe, the ancient treatises you mention are dealing with these two different pronunciations of r.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

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From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2020 6:19 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} visarga sandhi question

 

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Perhaps the jihvāmūlīya pronunciation of r is similar to the European French pronunciation of r in words such as “Paris”.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier 

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Radhakrishna Ji,

     I believe the Prātiśākhyas are giving us a glimpse of dialectal variation in Sanskrit.  We don't know the details of these dialects most of the times.  The R̥k-Prātiśākhya, for instance, attributes the change of ड>ळ, ढ>ळ्ह to Vedamitra, but this change now shows up in the Śākalya Saṃhitā as it is recited today.  We don't know the relationship between Vedamitra and Śākalya.  Similarly, the Vājasaneyi Prātiśākhya says: डढौ ळळ्हौ न सन्ति माध्यन्दिनीयानाम्.  This difference between the Kāṇva and the Mādhyandina traditions is probably regional.  The Mādhyandinas are mostly found in North India, while the Kāṇvas are found in Maharashtra and southern regions.

 

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

Can the same star appear at two different places at the same time?

Is a letter to be defined by the place of its articulation or by the sound it makes to the human ear?  

If there is more than one place for the articulation of a particular letter can all of them be taken to follow dharma?

So गोणी गोता गावी as words  are as valid as गौः taken that ग and त can be phonated at many places?

Could this hypothesis that letters are distinguished by what sound they make rather than their specific place of articulation and their modulation be the basis of a treatise like the Ashtadhyayi?

It is therefore a matter of choice whether one follows the Panini tradition or gives himself to interpretations of convenience resulting in confusion.

According to Patanjali the purpose of grammar is to make one self free of doubt.

Is the Asthadhyayi together with the Maheshwar Sutras a Darshana treatise or otherwise (A systematic arrangement of word forms prevalent in society as grammar is thought to be now-a-days - A book of science)?

With regards,

Achyut Karve

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[G S S Murthy]

I request to be pardoned for taking the discussion off the track but I find it hard to suppress myself. I have observed a subtle difference in pronunciation of त in Kannada between नन्न तन्दे (my father) and नेन्ने तन्दे ([I] brought [it] yesterday). Can other Kannada knowing scholars here vouchsafe for this difference and if yes, is this difference discussed somewhere?

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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and also my Sanskrit blog :

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http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

[K S Kannan]

And so with

बीज बित्तु .

हण्णु बित्तु.

भार एत्तु.

भारि एत्तु.

इवरु अवन अत्ते.

दुःखदिंद अत्ते.

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Member, Academic Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthana.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[G S S Murthy]

Thanks, Prof.Kannan. Only in the third item नानु अत्ते and नन्न अत्ते do I perceive a subtle difference in pronunciation. Are these subtle differences in pronunciation discussed in any study/book?

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

In Marathi one will see two distinct places of phonation of all the स्पर्श consonants to the exception of प class consonants as in

कप but कंठ  or कर  but कळ 

चष्मा but चक्कर

टण but टणक

तड तड but तट

In this way for all the consonants of each class.

With regards,

Achyut Karve

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