satyanArAyaNa vrata

[శ్రీకర]

Dear listfolk,

Is there any evidence to the commonly propounded academic theory that the satyanArAyaNa vrata/pUjA is Islamic in origin or has syncretized Islamic elements from an Islamic "Satya Pir"?

Thanking in advance.

[Siddharth Wakankar]

I faintly remember that the late Dr.P.K.Gode had written a paper saying that the Shiraa which is offered as a naivedya for the Satyanarayana puja in Maharashtra is not native to india.I have to go back to search for that article for exact reference.

In the meanwhile,Shankar ji.might enlighten us on this.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

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[Mamata Dash]

With regards to all vidvaans, if the origin of Satyanarayana puja us Satya piira, then how the word satya will be justified. There is a special temple inside the jagannath temple of Puri named satyanarayana temple. The icon is of black granite stone. 

And I have edited a book named Satyanarayana puja but in Odia. 

I think Satyanarayana puja was very much there in India, but to create an impression, the procedure was followed suitable to Muslim style.

With regards

Mamata Mishra

[Hnbhat B.R.]

Why the procedure followed suitable to Muslim style? No muslim is said to worship any deity or idoll! All nonsense publicity! 

On Saturday, January 5, 2019, Mamata Dash <mamat...@gmail.com> wrote:

With regards to all vidvaans, if the origin of Satyanarayana puja us Satya piira, then how the word satya will be justified. There is a special temple inside the jagannath temple of Puri named satyanarayana temple. The icon is of black granite stone. 

And I have edited a book named Satyanarayana puja but in Odia. 

I think Satyanarayana puja was very much there in India, but to create an impression, the procedure was followed suitable to Muslim style.

With regards

Mamata Mishra

On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 9:44 AM Siddharth Wakankar <sywak...@gmail.com wrote:

I faintly remember that the late Dr.P.K.Gode had written a paper saying that the Shiraa which is offered as a naivedya for the Satyanarayana puja in Maharashtra is not native to india.I have to go back to search for that article for exact reference.

In the meanwhile,Shankar ji.might enlighten us on this.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

On Sat 5 Jan, 2019, 7:18 AM శ్రీకర <sreeka...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear listfolk,

Is there any evidence to the commonly propounded academic theory that the satyanArAyaNa vrata/pUjA is Islamic in origin or has syncretized Islamic elements from an Islamic "Satya Pir"?

Thanking in advance.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Commonly propounded academic theory ?

There is neither such an 'academic' theory nor is it common. 

Seems to be some from some nonserious source.

On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 1:26 PM Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com wrote:

Why the procedure followed suitable to Muslim style? No muslim is said to worship any deity or idoll! All nonsense publicity! 

On Saturday, January 5, 2019, Mamata Dash <mamat...@gmail.com> wrote:

With regards to all vidvaans, if the origin of Satyanarayana puja us Satya piira, then how the word satya will be justified. There is a special temple inside the jagannath temple of Puri named satyanarayana temple. The icon is of black granite stone. 

And I have edited a book named Satyanarayana puja but in Odia. 

I think Satyanarayana puja was very much there in India, but to create an impression, the procedure was followed suitable to Muslim style.

With regards

Mamata Mishra

On Sat, Jan 5, 2019, 9:44 AM Siddharth Wakankar <sywak...@gmail.com wrote:

I faintly remember that the late Dr.P.K.Gode had written a paper saying that the Shiraa which is offered as a naivedya for the Satyanarayana puja in Maharashtra is not native to india.I have to go back to search for that article for exact reference.

In the meanwhile,Shankar ji.might enlighten us on this.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

On Sat 5 Jan, 2019, 7:18 AM శ్రీకర <sreeka...@gmail.com wrote:

Dear listfolk,

Is there any evidence to the commonly propounded academic theory that the satyanArAyaNa vrata/pUjA is Islamic in origin or has syncretized Islamic elements from an Islamic "Satya Pir"?

Thanking in advance.

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[shankara]

Paturiji,

In fact, some leading Indologists have suggested such a possibility.

1. The idea that Satyanarayana Vrata Katha (SNVK) has Muslim origin was first suggested by Hara Prasad Sastri in 1928 in his preface to 'Descriptive Catalogue of Sanskrit Manuscripts at Asiatic Society, Calcutta' Vol 5, page 65 (extract attached to this mail).

2. This is also mentioned by PV Kane in vol 5 part 1 of History of Dharmasastra, page 437. Kane quotes from an article by Hara Prasad Shastri published in JBORS (Joural of Bihar and Orissa Research Society vol 15, page 328), 'the Mahomedan custom of offering 'Sirni' to Satyapir was adopted by Bengal Hindus as worship of Satyanarayana.'. Extract from Kane's book is attached to this mail. Though JBORS vol 15 is available online at https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.280418 I could not find Hara Prasad Sastri's article on SNVK in it. If anyone finds this article, please share it with all.

(Based Wakankarji's post I gues 'Sirni' must be 'Siiraa' offered to the deity during the Puja. I request Wakankarji to provide the title of PK Gode's article on SNVK.)

3. SG Kantawala in an article titled 'Satyanarayana Vratakatha and Upabrimhana' published in the proceedings of World Sanskrit Conference concludes that SNVK is a Puranic Upabrmhana of the Vedic concept of Satya and other concepts associated with the Vedic Vishnu, Varuna and Indra..... (Article attached to this mail).

I requeste scholars of BVP to point out any critical study on the probability of Islamic influence on SNVK or Hindu influence on Satyapirer Katha.

regards
shankara

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The whole thing seems to have started with Hara Prasad Shastri's article. 

When a cultural item or any other such human practice is studied as being found in two different social 

[K S Kannan]

It is not merely with Satyanarayana Katha.

And it is not merely the Occidental writers who indulge in such fantasies 

even where there is evidenced no logical/legitimate link.

Many Indian scholars, their veritable sepoys, take pleasure in positing such ideas,

anxious to prove they are more loyal than the king:

asked to bend, they delight in grovelling.

There are many among Westerner scholars who suggest that Sankara was influenced by Islam,

or that Ramanuja was influenced by Christianity.

As sympathetic a scholar as ALBasham too stooped to suggest such ideas!

Political victory, won in wily ways, not unoften fathers

academic rodomontades and educated desperados.

Dr. K.S.Kannan

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Member, Exec Committee, Indian Institute of World Culture, Bangalore.

Member, BoS, Chinmaya University.

Member, BoS, University of Hyderabad.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Principal, Evening College, Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[Aravinda Rao]

We see that both words 'Satya' and 'Narayana' are as old as the Vedas. Is it not possible that Satyanarayana was worshiped by the Muslims in the name of Satya pier? Bengali Brahmins might have adopted the naivedyam aspect while the puja remained purely Hindu and was adopted by the Muslims. We have not studied the different pirs worshiped by the Shia Muslims. Satyanarayana vratam is quite popular in the Telugu states too. 

Hari Prasad Shastri is no doubt a big name as he was the teacher of A.J.Alston who has wonderfully summarized the philosophy of Sri Shankara in his several volumes. It seems he has made some hasty observation. 

Dr. Aravinda Rao K

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Dr. Rao-ji

The article is by Hara Prasad Sastri, who I am fairly certain was different from Hari Prasad Sastri, the teacher of Alston.

Ramakrishnan 

[Aravinda Rao]

I am not aware of it. 

Aravinda Rao

[Nagaraj Paturi]

All the details of the performance /execution of the Satyanarayana vrata are Hindu specific. None of the details prompt an investigation into any non-Hindu influence.

As a name of a Pier the word Satya does not match. That prompts an enquiry into non-Moslem influence.

[shankara]

Namaste,

Meanwhile, I could locate the other article of Hara Prasad Sastri wherein he mentions about Hindus imitating the Satya Pir Katha of Muslims. It was published in vol 14 of JOBRS and not in vol 16 as said in PV Kane's HOD vol 5 part 1. (Relevant pages from HP Sastri's article are attached to this mail).

Title of the article is 'Mahapuranas'. While discussing the differences between the Bengali & Southern recensions of Skanda Purana, Sastri points out that Satyanarayana Vrata Katha (SNVK) is not found in Southern recension of Skanda Purana published by Venkatesvara Press, Mumbai while SNVK is found in Reva Khanda of Bengali Recension of Skanda Purana published by Bangabasi Press. It was in this context that he comments that 'the Mahomedan custom of offering Sirni to Satya Pir was adopted by Bengali Hindus as worship of Satyanarayana'. He makes this statement as if he had no doubt at all about its accuracy. What is more surprising is that PV Kane and other scholars who quoted HP Sastri in their works did not even try to challenge Sastri's theory.

regards
shankara

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Shankara-ji

Maybe I am missing something, but the pages do not talk about the vratam.

Ramakrishnan

[shankara]

Ramakrishnanji,

Thanks for pointing out the error.

There was an error when I extracted pages from HP Sastri's article. Right set of pages are attached herewith.

regards
shankara

[Nagaraj Paturi]

To me the reference seems to be only to the extent of Sirni offering. Not to the entire worship of Satya Narayana. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Does anyone know Sirni in general and/or Sirni as a Bengali Moslem dish?

Does anyone anything about any Satyapir from any part of Bengal?

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namsate:

I have checked with my Muslim Friend from Bangladesh.  He confirms that Satya-Peer is a traditional worship in Bangladesh.

What has always puzzled me is that SatyanarayaNa vrata is not found in Bombay Edition of Skandha puuraaNa but is there in the Calcutta edition of Skandha puraaNa.

This observation was noted is P.V. Kane's book History of dharma shaastra.

May be scholars from Bengal will be able to enlighten us on this observation.

Thx

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Saturday, January 5, 2019, 1:08:37 PM MST, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Does anyone know Sirni in general and/or Sirni as a Bengali Moslem dish?

Does anyone anything about any Satyapir from any part of Bengal?

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019, 1:07 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com wrote:

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Let me reiterate:

All the details of the performance /execution of the Satyanarayana vrata are Hindu specific. None of the details prompt an investigation into any non-Hindu influence.

As a name of a Pier the word Satya does not match. That prompts an enquiry into non-Moslem influence

Please ask your Bangladeshi friend 

Is Satya peer worshipped as part of Moharram rituals?

If yes, is Satya the name of a local Moslem paigambar whose ruh is bel8evec to return during Moharram and is placed alongside the panja s of Hasan, Hussain and Bibi Fatima?

Mohaarram peers are worshipped in by placing the panja in an Ashurkhana not inside any household.

If not, is it the name of a local paigambar who is worshipped in a Dargah?

If yes, is the paigambar's peer worshipped only in a Dargah or in a household?

Is Satya a Moslem name or a Hindu name?

If a Moslem name, is it a usual practice in that part of the world for Moslems to have vowel ending Sanskrit or Sankrit like names?

Is Satya the name of a Hindu saint worshipped by Hindus and Moslems in the form of his ruh /spirit ?

Is Satya the name of a Hindu saint worshipped originally only by Moslems and later under Moslem influence by Hindus?

There is a dish called phirni. 

Is the dish offered to Satya peer phirni or Sirni?

Is shodashopacharapuja very important part of Satya peer worship? 

Is the narration of the story of vratakatha a compulsory element of Satya peer worship?

If yes, does that story contain the aspects of all four varna's being eligible to perform etc?

..........................

What made Hindus borrow Satya peer worship? Fear of Satya peer? If yes, is this element of fear of consequences of not worshipping , part of Satya peer cult?

Was it because the Hindus liked Sirni , a new dish unknown to them before the Satya peer cult? 

Is Sirni being offered not part of any Hindu ritual?

Which part of the vrata is not part of Hindu vratas and hence leads to the suspicion of a Moslem influence?

[Ram Kumar Krishnan ராம குமரன்]

An unrelated fact is that Satyanarayana vratha is unheard of in TN or Kerala not sure why it did not reach here

வெள்., 4 ஜன., 2019, பிற்பகல் 8:48 அன்று, శ్రీకర <sreeka...@gmail.com> எழுதியது:

Dear listfolk,

Is there any evidence to the commonly propounded academic theory that the satyanArAyaNa vrata/pUjA is Islamic in origin or has syncretized Islamic elements from an Islamic "Satya Pir"?

Thanking in advance.

[ken p]

Here are some links.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya_Narayan_(Hindu_deity)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satya_Pir

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hara_Prasad_Shastri

Temples: Laxminarayan Temple,Changu Narayan,Ichangu Narayan,Char Narayan,Jagat Narayan,Trijugi Narayan ,Badrinarayan Temple, Swami narayan

page-95 Chapter xi,xii

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.12589/page/n111

http://en.banglapedia.org/index.php?title=Satya_Pir

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satyanarayan_Puja

https://www.harivara.com/product-tag/satyanarayana-pooja-cost/

https://www.divine-rudraksha.com/products/sri-satya-narayan-katha-puja

This Satyanaaryan kathaa is very popular in Gujarat but people never heard of Pir naaraayan. Prasaad is served in form of Shiraa prepared with pure ghee, wheat flower, sugar and needed  cashew, almond and raisin . This way Brahmins earn their livelihood performing kathaa mostly at farmers homes.

Shri Satyanarayan Bhagwan Katha in English

https://youtu.be/6l-PwAP2Uy4

Here is another Ramdev pir story leading towards inner faith.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramdev_Pir

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Thanks for the extract Shankara-ji. It seems that the offering of shirni (I don’t know what this dish is) seems to be the main point here. Perhaps that dish culturally Muslim. But Prof. Paturi’s questions need to be addressed, especially the word satya in satyapir for influence one way or the other.

As a side note, the first time I heard about the Satyanarayana pUjA was in North America. I had never seen this in Tamil Nadu in my younger days, although from a fairly orthoprax background. I later found that it is quite popular among Telugu and Kannnada smArta-s, but not with Tamils.

Ramakrishnan 

[shankara]

Ramakrishnan ji,

I guess you read PV Kane's note (extracted from HOD) on Satyanarayanavrata that I had attached to an earlier post. In it, PV Kane refers to HP Sastri's comment in Desc. Catalogue of Skt. Manuscripts vol. 5 and article on Mahapuranas published in JBORS and summarises, 'HP Sastri says that the worship of Satyanarayana has a Mahomedan origin. It was originally (and even now in many places) called Satyapirer Puja.' 'The same author says that the Mahomedan custom of offering Sirni to Satyapir was adopted by Bengal Hindus as worship of Satyanarayana.'

Our questions can be answered only by someone who has made an indepth study of SNVK tradition.

Tony Stewart in his book on the legends of Satya Pir, 'Fabulous Females and Peerless Pirs: Tales of Mad Adventure in Old Bengal' (OUP), focuses more on the folk tales centered on Satya Pir and does not discuss the origin of the tradition. Though he refers to Satyanarayana Katha a few times, he does delve into its origin or growth or its influence on Satya Pir's Katha.

regards
shankara

[Nagaraj Paturi]

One of the links shared by Sri Ken has already resolved the problem.

It says Satya pir is an adaptation from some folk cult. It is found among converts into Islam from Hinduism. 

If it is theorised that it is from Islam into Hinduism , it means it is from Hindu folk cult to Islam back to Hinduism. 

Most of the popular Hinduism has folk origins. 

Vratas having folk origins should be no surprise. 

[shankara]

Paturiji,

Your argument is convincing. Since you consider that 'most of the popular Hinduism if of folk origin', could you please suggest any books or articles on this topic for further reading?  I have not read any books dealing with this topic.

regards
shankara

[Kalyan K]

Sri Paturiji says - //Most of the popular Hinduism has folk origins.//


I am beginning to appreciate the above. Earlier I was under the impression that all aspects of Hinduism must have been present in written form. Now I doubt whether this is the case. Theory of folk origins makes more sense.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

That what is now viewed as "Hinduism" , evolved over centuries if not millennia of interaction , interface, resulting in various kinds of admixtures of various strands of cultures  Vedic  and non-Vedic is a well known understanding /theory. 

At the linguistic level, this is analysed as interaction among different languages belonging to different language families. " India as a Linguistic Area " by M B Emeneau")

Obsolete simplistic versions of such analyses are found in the form of Aryan-Dravidian interaction mostly viewed as a conflict relation. What is being called as 'folk' in my post had been , in these obsolete simplistic versions of  analyses were called 'Dravidian'. 

On Sun, Jan 6, 2019 at 10:32 PM Kalyan K <pk.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri Paturiji says - //Most of the popular Hinduism has folk origins.//


I am beginning to appreciate the above. Earlier I was under the impression that all aspects of Hinduism must have been present in written form. Now I doubt whether this is the case. Theory of folk origins makes more sense.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Ramakrishnan wrote:

As a side note, the first time I heard about the Satyanarayana pUjA was in North America. I had never seen this in Tamil Nadu in my younger days, although from a fairly orthoprax background. I later found that it is quite popular among Telugu and Kannnada smArta-s, but not with Tamils.

Ramakrishnan 

********************

Additional comments & question:

PV Kane's History Dharmashastra also mentions that SatyanarayaNa vrata is not found in Bombay Edition of Skandha puuraaNa but is there in the Calcutta edition of Skandha puraaNa.

Name SatyanaraayaNa is as a last name in Bihar and neighboring regions.

As far as I know there is no mention or records of SatyanaaraaNa puujaa in Peshva Daftar. Peshva's were well known for their meticulous documentation of their accounting practices.

Taking this into account along with Ramakrishnan's observation & commen does it not suggests that this "SatyanaaraayaNa ritual / vratakathaa" seems to have migrated slowly to Eastern and Southern regions on India.

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated from scholars.

Rgds

Dr Yadu

[rniyengar]

My two-paise contribution to the discussion:

Muthuswami Dikshitar (1775-1835) was a great South Indian Vaidkika, VaiNika, Upaasaka, music composer - a polymath. His compositions are in Sanskrit and MaNipravALam. It is known that he travelled widely and lived in Varanasi for several years, learning north Indian classical music and Yoga under Chidambaranatha Yogi. His composition:

 shrI satyanArAyaNam upAsmahE nityam satya~nAnAnandamayam sarvam viShNumayam

vAsavAdi pUjitam varamunigaNa bhAvitam dAsajana paripAlitam bhAsamAna badarIsthitam

vaishyajAti kAraNam vaTuvEShadhAriNam kaliyugaprasannam vasupradAnanipuNam

matsyakUrma varAhAdi dashAvatAraprabhAvam shankhacakrAbjahastam gurugughanuta prasiddham||

is quite popular in Karnatic music. Dikshitar invariably highlights some special characters of the deity or the sacred location eulogized in the song. Here SatyanArAyaNa is equated with Badarinath. What is interesting is his statement: vaishyajAti kAraNam.   Probably he knew something more about Satyanarayana legends. A general observation I have made in the old Mysore region is that business community families were the main votaries of the Satyanarayana-vrata. It used to be a family based ritual some 50 years back. Now a days it is more a pooja than a vrata and observed in many temples as a group worship on Full Moon day.

Thanks

RNI

[Ramaratnam S.]

Almost all of the songs of Muttuswami Dikshitar are in Sanskrit. I am not aware of any manipravala song of Sri Dikshitar. I request Dr. Iyengar to enlighten us on this point. What are the songs in manipravaala?

Dr.S.Ramaratnam

--

[Kalyan K]

//Taking this into account along with Ramakrishnan's observation & commen does it not suggests that this "SatyanaaraayaNa ritual / vratakathaa" seems to have migrated slowly to Eastern and Southern regions on India.//


From the information on the internet, Satyanarayana vrata is done in western parts like Maharashtra and Gujarat too. People from these regions may let us know if this is correct.

There is a famous Satyanarayana swamy temple at Annavaram in Andhra Pradesh. A search on the net shows Satyanarayana temples in Tamil Nadu and Odisha also. On youtube, I found Satyanarayana puja and katha in Tamil. The vrata is done not only by brahmins but by other castes too in Karnataka.

Is there any evidence to show that this vrata originated in Bengal and then spread to the other parts of India?

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Satyanarayanavrata and puja is very popular in Maharashtra as well as in Gujarat and all those places where these communities migrated like M.P.,U.P.,Bihar,Bengal and even in Southern parts of India.The puja is performed by people from all strata of society.

There is one big Satyanarayana Mandir in the Free Gunj area of Ujjain also.

It is just possible that these migrated people carried their culture to distant places like Assam,Bengal etc.because,I found that there are some Marathi.looking words in Assamese,Bengali,Bihari etc.

One striking similarity which I experienced in December,1986.

In the western part of Howrah station area near the Homeopathy College,I saw a dispensary of an opthalmologist named Dr.Modak,a typical Maharashtrian surname.I met that gentleman and he emphatically said that he is a pakka Bengali,though originally they are/ were from Maharashtra,but,for many generations,they are in Bengal,so,are now full.fledged Bengalis.

I think,this sufficiently proves the cultural migration.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

[Yogananda CS]

Namaste,

There is a composition of Sri Muttuswamy Dikshitar (24 March 1775 – 21 October 1835), shrI satyanArAyaNam upAsmahE nityam  (http://www.shivkumar.org/music/shrisatyanarayanam.htm). In the charanam of that kriti you will find  `vaishyajAti kAraNam . . .' (He created (“kAraNam”) the business (“vaishya”) community (“jAti”)). 

regards.................................yoga

[rniyengar]

I am neither a musician nor a musicologist. I collect information of cultural interest from sources that appear reasonably reliable. The following is my source.

Extracts from  www.nadasurabhi.org

".... The most popular Manipravalam composition of Dikshitar is ‘Sri Abhayamba ninnu’ in ‘Sri’ Ragam set to Adi Talam.  It is the last kriti (9th) the Mangala kriti in the ‘Abhayamaba Vibhakti Kritis’ group.  Here Dikshitar employs three languages, Sanskrit, Telugu and Tamil.  The other 2 Manipravala kritis are ‘Sri Venkata Chalapathe (Adi), and ‘Sri Maharajni’, both in ‘Karnataka Kapi’ Ragam."

Thanks for the question.

RNI

[Ramaratnam S.]

Respected Sri Iyengar,

I thank you for the information. Sri. Dikshita has composed about 500 krtis out of which only three are in manipravala style. The rest are all in Sanskrit, that is about 99.5%. Therefore, the sentence

'His compositions are in Sanskrit and MaNipravALam.'may be modified as 'His compositions are mainly in Sanskrit (two or three  are in manipravala style).' This is only a suggestion.

with regards,

ramaratnam

[Prakash Pandey]

Pranam to all learned scholars, 

The book I have has following sentence as colophon at the end: 

इति श्रीस्कन्दपुराणे रेवाखण्डे सत्यनारायणव्रतकथायां षष्ठोऽध्यायः ॥

Scholars who have access to Skanda Purana can verify this. 

विदुषाम् अनुचरः 

प्रकाशः 

[shankara]

Namaste,

This was already discussed in this thread. Satyanarayana Katha is found in Bangabasi edition of Skanda Purana, but not in Southern recensions like Venkatesvara Press edition.

Please read the thread from the beginning so as to avoid repetitions.

regards
shankara

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namaste Prof Wakankar

Your line of thinking does add additional support.  To me the inclusion of SatyanaaraaNa vrata in Skandha pureaaNa from Bengal Edition and it's absence from the Bombay Edition of Skandha puraaNa provides a clue for the origin in the Eastern regions of India.

I checked with my friend from Bangladesh.  He still narrates this traditional story (katha) within the family only.

Rgds

Dr. Yadu

On Monday, January 7, 2019, 8:05:50 PM PST, Siddharth Wakankar <sywak...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Satyanarayanavrata and puja is very popular in Maharashtra as well as in Gujarat and all those places where these communities migrated like M.P.,U.P.,Bihar,Bengal and even in Southern parts of India.The puja is performed by people from all strata of society.

There is one big Satyanarayana Mandir in the Free Gunj area of Ujjain also.

It is just possible that these migrated people carried their culture to distant places like Assam,Bengal etc.because,I found that there are some Marathi.looking words in Assamese,Bengali,Bihari etc.

One striking similarity which I experienced in December,1986.

In the western part of Howrah station area near the Homeopathy College,I saw a dispensary of an opthalmologist named Dr.Modak,a typical Maharashtrian surname.I met that gentleman and he emphatically said that he is a pakka Bengali,though originally they are/ were from Maharashtra,but,for many generations,they are in Bengal,so,are now full.fledged Bengalis.

I think,this sufficiently proves the cultural migration.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

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[శ్రీకర]

Dear Dr. Yadu,

Do you have any idea of the vrata kathA of satya pir and its procedure? The only tale about satya pir I am seeing here is a link posted which instead of looking like any syncreticism to me is more of an idea of actively downgrading nArAyaNa instead. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.12589/page/n111

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

There seems to be a several mix up strands and thoughts in this thread of discussions, especially an overflow of ' cultural sensitivity at one end and insensitive academic argument on the other end, which seems to miss the social flow and dynamics of religion -ritual in community; especially in India. Here below are my arguments and line of thinking:

Given Facts: 

a) Current model of  Satyanarayana Pooja is a global Hindu celebration in which ' Glory of Truth, God's intervention and punishment for violation of a Promise failed' is the conclusion as ' Katha narrative '. Of course, the same story is also the ' authentic origin'  of the  expression' ' Dardira Brahmana' (= Poor Brahmin) for over two centuries now. A statement oft repeated to make the equation 'Brahmin must be poor if one is a real brahmin' ! 

b ) The observance, irrespective of its socio-cultural origin is observed as a 'Hindu Observance' and NOT as a ' ISLAMIC observance'. The glory of Truth, the name of ' Allah as Truth'  does not drive the Islamic community to adapt the 'Vrata observance format of Satyanarayana pooja'.

Note: Google up ' Islam Truth,    Truth holy Quran' . These statements would be found in abundance:

‘Truth’ is a name of Allah. Truth or Haqq is a name of God in the Quran:
“Supremely exalted then is Allah, the King, the Truth.”—20 :114
“That is because Allah, He is the Truth,” —22 :6
“Allah, He is the Evident Truth.”— 24: 25
Hence Abdul Haqq is a name of men among Muslims which means the servant of Truth, by Truth being meant Allah.
God is truthful
Truth being a name of Allah, the Quran says that God is the most truthful:
“Allah speaks the truth”—3 :95; “And Allah speaks the truth and He shows the way.” — 33: 4
“He (Allah) said: The Truth is, and the truth I speak…” — 38: 84
The following statement is repeated more than ten times in the Quran:
“…surely Allah’s promise is true”— 10:55; It also says:“It is Allah’s promise, in truth. And who is more truthful in word than Allah?” —4 :122
God created the world with truth. It is stated some ten times in the Quran that Allah created the heavens and the earth with truth:

http://ahmadiyya.org/islam/concept-of-truth.pdf

https://www.al-islam.org/hayat-al-qulub-vol3-allamah-muhammad-baqir-al-majlisi/part-18-traditions-explaining-sun-moon-stars

c) Vrata format of worshipping Devatas is older than islams entry to India !  and recognition of TRUTH (Satya) as Supreme is Vedic. (Satyam Jnanam Anantham Brahma; Satyam param dheemahi ;  Satyam is one of the lokas mentioned as a part of Gayatri Samkalpa).

Argument : Given the  social need to find a common value base to connect  common core values  of new religion embraced due to social compulsions and hearts desire to connect back to Vedic roots,  it may be possibility  that a ' Vedic Scholar at Heart, yet a social Outsider of Varna-ashrama frame' might have designed a  new 'VRATA'  which bridged the social gap  between  Varna Brahmin community and New-converts . Purely as a Social Bridge to  bring together the people- mostly like modern ' Ishwara Allah Tero Naam,  Ram- Rahim'  models.  

Plausible ending of this argument:  TRUTH is Universal. Worship format of Truth can take many shades of cultural attire.  Satya-Narayana Pooja seems to be one such exercise; another similar model is 'Ganesha Pooja, Navagraha Pooja,  Amman Pooja', and the like.

For contemplation please.

Regards

BVK Sastry

.

 

Regards

 

Dr. B V Venkatakrishna Sastry
(G-Mail)

 

 

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namaste Sreekarsaha:

I have no clue whether this is practiced by other follower of Islam.

We somehow think that things in our culture are "FIXED", which is not really true.  Even for any language including Sanskrit grammar things are always susceptible for modifications with the passage of time. Panini refers to vertebral grammarians before him and recommends applying them as needed.

In science, this is known as the "Information Theory".  It is only on the basis of this theory Bell Labs developed MP3 Format and Transmission over Cable by preserving the critical points of information.  Theory state, "Information that is certain in the beginning tends to become uncertain with the passage of time".

In thermodynamics this is the essential principle concept on Entropy.

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019, 8:05:28 AM PST, శ్రీకర <sreeka...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Dear Dr. Yadu,

Do you have any idea of the vrata kathA of satya pir and its procedure? The only tale about satya pir I am seeing here is a link posted which instead of looking like any syncreticism to me is more of an idea of actively downgrading nArAyaNa instead. https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.12589/page/n111

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019 at 8:36:16 PM UTC+5:30, "Dr Yadu" wrote:

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Dear Dr.Yadu Moharir,

Suprabhat.

Thanks for your kind and appreciative mail.

Our actual experiences do come handy at a later date to support someone .

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar.

[Aravinda Rao]

Sri BVK ji has summed up the arguments in a good perspective. The word 'satyam' as told in the Upanishads is loosely translated as truth, whereas Sri Shankara's commentaries on ' satyam, jnanam anantam Brahma' and in other places explain the word to mean the foundational existence which forms the substratum for various phenomenon on the one Reality and which is not negatable at any time, i.e, past, present and future, trikaalaabaadhyam. The word satyam is perhaps taken by later religions, for which we need not bother much. Certainly Satya pir is not older than the Taittiriya Upanishad. Even the Sikhs have taken the words 'sat' and 'akaal' which almost mean the same. 

Regards,

Aravinda Rao K

[Venkata Sriram]

Dear Aravinda Rao Garu,

The roots of 'satya-nArAyaNa' is found in  त्रिपाद्विभूतिमहानारायणोपनिषत् ....There is also a secret yantra which is implicit in the upanishad and the same yantra is carved in Satyanarayana Swamy temple in Annavaram. One may see the ground floor to have the glimpse of the yantra.  At the bindu sthAna, the pillar is there which continues till 1st floor. On the 1st floor, the vigrahas of hiraNyagarbha-hari-hara. 

Don't know about the antiquity of 5 stories related to this vrata.  However, we perform this at our home.  When we were in Bengal, we used to attend 'nArAyaNa-katha' at our family friends' house.  In Gujarat, we attended 'satyanarayana katha' where importance is laid to 'katha' bhAga. They take almost 5 hours for the puja and we must be patient enough to sit for 5 hrs at a stretch !

rgs,

sriram 

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 6:54:31 AM UTC+5:30, Aravinda Rao wrote:

Sri BVK ji has summed up the arguments in a good perspective. The word 'satyam' as told in the Upanishads is loosely translated as truth, whereas Sri Shankara's commentaries on ' satyam, jnanam anantam Brahma' and in other places explain the word to mean the foundational existence which forms the substratum for various phenomenon on the one Reality and which is not negatable at any time, i.e, past, present and future, trikaalaabaadhyam. The word satyam is perhaps taken by later religions, for which we need not bother much. Certainly Satya pir is not older than the Taittiriya Upanishad. Even the Sikhs have taken the words 'sat' and 'akaal' which almost mean the same. 

Regards,

Aravinda Rao K

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[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste,

On a side note....on 'pir' issue at Telangana

There is a large banyan tree in Mahaboobnagar called 'pillala-marri' (a telugu word) which means 'banyan tree with many offshoots / branches around the trunk'.  This tree is supposed to be 700 years old and has become a beautiful tourist spot in telangana and people from far off places come to visit this tree.  

Next to it is an encroachment by local muslims and placed a darga nearby and constructed a wall so as to divide the banyan tree & darga.  This darga is supposed to be of a fakir and named the place as 'pirla-marri' (the banyan tree associated with 'pir' (fakir)).

There was lot of arguments b/w tourism officials and local muslims and ultimately the name 'pillala-marri' got stuck due to pressure from tourism officials.  That beautiful banyan tree can be seen in the below link:

https://www.telanganatourism.gov.in/partials/destinations/heritage-spots/mahabubnagar/pillalamarri.html

rgs,

sriram

On Wednesday, January 9, 2019 at 6:54:31 AM UTC+5:30, Aravinda Rao wrote:

Sri BVK ji has summed up the arguments in a good perspective. The word 'satyam' as told in the Upanishads is loosely translated as truth, whereas Sri Shankara's commentaries on ' satyam, jnanam anantam Brahma' and in other places explain the word to mean the foundational existence which forms the substratum for various phenomenon on the one Reality and which is not negatable at any time, i.e, past, present and future, trikaalaabaadhyam. The word satyam is perhaps taken by later religions, for which we need not bother much. Certainly Satya pir is not older than the Taittiriya Upanishad. Even the Sikhs have taken the words 'sat' and 'akaal' which almost mean the same. 

Regards,

tout.

[kapoor kapil]

Dear Sri Rao ji  - satya,  satyam  etc are derived from SATT  which= ' what is'. 'Set'  in Khalsa greeting means this and therefore not equal to 'Akaal' which is = 'all time or timelessness' and is sometimes a synonym of 'parabrahman'.

    Regards

kapil kapoor 

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namaste Scholars:

There has been considerable amount of discussion pertaining to the Origin and Migration of satyanaaraayaNa vrata / kathaa. In reality, this does not add much value to comprehend why this ritual may have become so popular and has taken a root through various provinces.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts,

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Tuesday, January 8, 2019, 6:23:23 PM PST, Aravinda Rao <karav...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Sri BVK ji has summed up the arguments in a good perspective. The word 'satyam' as told in the Upanishads is loosely translated as truth, whereas Sri Shankara's commentaries on ' satyam, jnanam anantam Brahma' and in other places explain the word to mean the foundational existence which forms the substratum for various phenomenon on the one Reality and which is not negatable at any time, i.e, past, present and future, trikaalaabaadhyam. The word satyam is perhaps taken by later religions, for which we need not bother much. Certainly Satya pir is not older than the Taittiriya Upanishad. Even the Sikhs have taken the words 'sat' and 'akaal' which almost mean the same. 

Regards,

Aravinda Rao K

On Wed, Jan 9, 2019 at 5:27 AM Siddharth Wakankar <sywak...@gmail.com> wrote: