The letter ळ

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

In which languages other than those of South India and Marathi and of course vedic Sanskrit is the letter ळ a letter in the alphabet.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nityanand Misra]

Gujarati (ળ). 

Odia (ଳ).

And I guess Punjabi also (ਲ਼).

Sinhalese has it too (ළ) .

 

[उज्ज्वल राजपूत]

राजस्थानी।

[vasantkumar bhatt]

In Gujarati Language also. नळ-दमयन्ती ।

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

It appears that the letter ळ as on date exists only in South India and Western India does it exist in any of the so called Indo European Languages?

My next question would be out of the languages in which it is still prevalent in which of these languages it is just used as a letter in a word and in which of the languages, if any, it used as a suffix?

With regards,
Achyut Karve

On Jul 12, 2017 5:01 PM, "vasantkumar bhatt" <bhatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:

In Gujarati Language also. नळ-दमयन्ती ।

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com>

Date: 12/07/2017 12:55 (GMT+05:30)

To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The letter ळ

Dear Scholars,

In which languages other than those of South India and Marathi and of course vedic Sanskrit is the letter ळ a letter in the alphabet.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

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[Gandhar Kulkarni]

Namaste,

We can observe that southern india, west and south Maharashtra and gujarat has the pronunciation of ळ in their languages. 

The main reason of specifying the regions of Maharashtra is that Marathi in northern Maharashtra doesn't contain ळ as we could listen all the Marathi words containing ळ with replaced pronunciation as ड.

The Northern districts of Maharashtra and some Sothern territories of Madhya Pradesh sharing the boundries with the districts ranging from Nashik to Jalgaon popularly known as "Khandesh" has its clear pronunciation as ड.

केळे= banana = केड़

खेळ = game = खेड़

कमळ =lotus =कमड़, etc.

Regards,

Gandhar.

[manoj sankaranarayana]

Malayalam

On 12 Jul 2017 5:01 p.m., "vasantkumar bhatt" <bhatt...@hotmail.com> wrote:

In Gujarati Language also. नळ-दमयन्ती ।

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

-------- Original message --------

From: Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com>

Date: 12/07/2017 12:55 (GMT+05:30)

To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} The letter ळ

Dear Scholars,

In which languages other than those of South India and Marathi and of course vedic Sanskrit is the letter ळ a letter in the alphabet.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

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[Subodh Bhat]

The very first mantra of Rg Veda starts from अग्निमीळे, hence ळ is a part of Sanskrit from time immemorial. However Panini did not include ळ in Maheswara Sutra and hence ळ was banned from Sanskrit by Panini.

K, Subodh Bhat

Vision Automation

#1281, 33rd Cross,

Kumaraswamy Layout,

Bangalore 560078, India

 

TeleFax:+91-80-26609765

Mob: +91-9845756611

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The following are not my views, Sharing to show that these issues have been addressed and discussed thoroughly in the concerned academic disciplines. In stead of trying to reinvent the wheel, it is better to read the stuff and contribute new ideas if any to the existing body of knowlege:

Although in modern times speakers of the various Dravidian languages have mainly occupied the southern portion of India, while those of the Indo-Aryan (Indic) tongues have predominated in northern India, nothing definite is known about the ancient domain of the Dravidian parent speech. It is, however, a well-established and well-supported hypothesis that Dravidian speakers must have been widespread throughout India, including the northwest region. This is clear because a number of features of the Dravidian languages appear in the Rigveda, the earliest known Indo-Aryan literary work, thus showing that the Dravidian languages must have been present in the area of the Indo-Aryan ones. The Indo-Aryan languages were not, however, originally native to India; they were introduced by Aryan invaders from the north. Several scholars have demonstrated that pre-Indo-Aryan and pre-Dravidian bilingualism in India provided conditions for the far-reaching influence of Dravidian on the Indo-Aryan tongues in the spheres of phonology (e.g., the retroflex consonants, made with the tongue curled upward toward the palate), syntax (e.g., the frequent use of gerunds, which are nonfinite verb forms of nominal character, as in “by the falling of the rain”), and vocabulary (a number of Dravidian loanwords apparently appearing in the Rigveda itself).

Thus a form of Proto-Dravidian, or perhaps Proto-North Dravidian, must have been extensive in northern India before the advent of the Aryans. Apart from the survival of some islands of Dravidian speech, however, the process of replacement of the Dravidian languages by the Aryan tongues was entirely completed before the beginning of the Christian Era, after a period of bilingualism that must have lasted many centuries. Finally, the almost universal adoption of Indo-Aryan in the north and of Dravidian in the south has covered up the original linguistic diversity of India.

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sorry, forgot to share the reference info:

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~haroldfs/sars238/encybrit.html

Outline., Encyclopædia Britannica by K. Zvelevil

[Nagaraj Paturi]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0024384196000502

The historical development of retroflex consonants in Indo-Aryan

by T.A.Hall

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://www.quora.com/How-did-retroflex-consonants-first-come-about-in-the-Indo-Aryan-languages

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dravidian Theories

By R. Swaminatha Aiyar

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratum_in_the_Vedic_language#Dravidian

[ajit.gargeshwari]

Tulu (ತುಳು ಬಾಸೆ)
Kannada (ಳ)

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

The main reason for initiating this thread is to highlight that all studies into the origin of the Vedic Language are around etymology.  Looking to the uniqueness of the Vedic language one has also to look at its evolution from a phonetic and phonological point of view rather than just an etymological one.  

If there are at all an papers which deal with the evolution of the Vedic Language from a Phonetic, Phonemic and Phonological angle rather than an etymological one I would be deeply interested in reading them.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Please refer to vedic bibliography available at archives.org.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear scholars,

With what letter is the letter ळ in vedic Sanskrit replaced when it is used in later Sanskrit commonly called laukik (लौकिक) Sanskrit.

For example the letter ळ in अग्निमीळे is to be replaced by which letter in लौकिक Sanskrit.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I shared a page from a book where the author says that अग्निमीळे is in laukika samskritam, अग्निम्+ ईडे 

[vasantkumar bhatt]

वैदिक संस्कृते दृळ्हा इति शब्दः यदा लौकिके  संस्कृते प्रयुज्यते, तथा दृढा- इति   शब्दः भवति ।

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

​​ळ is not replaced by​ ​ल in Callsical Sanskrit. ​​ळ is found in Vedic Sanskrit an not in classical Sanskrit. There are several such pronunciation or accents found in Vedic Sanskrit. Please refer to vedic Siksas

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Madhav Deshpande]

The R̥gveda-Prātiśākhya says: द्वयोश्चास्य स्वरयोर्मध्यमेत्य सम्पद्यते स डकारो ळकार: "Occurring between two vowels, the ड becomes ळ."  However, this change is not recorded by Pāṇini, and does not occur in shared verses found in other Vedaśākhās.  The Śuklayajuḥ-Prātiśākhya says डढौ ळळ्हौ न माध्यन्दिनीयानाम् "ड and ढ do not become ळ and ळ्ह in the Mādhyandina Śukla Yajurveda."  This change is found in the Kāṇva branch of the Śukla Yajurveda which is generally found in Southern India, while the Mādhyandina Śākhā is generally found in Northern India.  There is a long-standing debate whether the occurrence of ळ in the R̥gveda, not yet known to Pāṇini, is a phenomenon that developed in some Śākhās due to local language influences.  One cannot assume that the "original" R̥gveda necessarily contained this sound.  The best we can say is that some Śākhās developed this variation.  My own views on the genesis of R̥gvedic Retroflexion are contained in a long article published in 1979.  The pdf of this article is too large to be sent as an attachment to this message.

Madhav Deshpande

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

While reciting is ळ pronounced very close ड?

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 7:42 PM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

The R̥gveda-Prātiśākhya says: द्वयोश्चास्य स्वरयोर्मध्यमेत्य सम्पद्यते स डकारो ळकार: "Occurring between two vowels, the ड becomes ळ."  However, this change is not recorded by Pāṇini, and does not occur in shared verses found in other Vedaśākhās.  The Śuklayajuḥ-Prātiśākhya says डढौ ळळ्हौ न माध्यन्दिनीयानाम् "ड and ढ do not become ळ and ळ्ह in the Mādhyandina Śukla Yajurveda."  This change is found in the Kāṇva branch of the Śukla Yajurveda which is generally found in Southern India, while the Mādhyandina Śākhā is generally found in Northern India.  There is a long-standing debate whether the occurrence of ळ in the R̥gveda, not yet known to Pāṇini, is a phenomenon that developed in some Śākhās due to local language influences.  One cannot assume that the "original" R̥gveda necessarily contained this sound.  The best we can say is that some Śākhās developed this variation.  My own views on the genesis of R̥gvedic Retroflexion are contained in a long article published in 1979.  The pdf of this article is too large to be sent as an attachment to this message.

Madhav Deshpande

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 9:32 AM, Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com> wrote:

​​ळ is not replaced by​ ​ल in Classical Sanskrit. ​​ळ is found in Vedic Sanskrit an not in classical Sanskrit. There are several such pronunciation or accents found in Vedic Sanskrit. Please refer to vedic Siksas

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Sun, Jul 16, 2017 at 5:18 PM, Achyut Karve <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear scholars,

With what letter is the letter

​​

ळ in vedic Sanskrit replaced when it is used in later Sanskrit commonly called laukik (

​​

लौकिक) Sanskrit.

For example the letter ळ in अग्निमीळे is to be replaced by which letter in लौकिक Sanskrit.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

--

[Madhav Deshpande]

Another interesting thing to note about ळ in some Vedic Śākhās is that this is a variant for ड and not for ल, as one sees in the Southern pronunciation [कमलम् > कमळम्].  The occurrence of ळ in Pāli is similar to that in the Vedaśākhās [Skt दृढ > Pali दळ्ह, Skt (?) एडमूक > Pali एळमूग, but Skt बाल remains बाल in Pali].  In this respect, Pali shares some features found in certain Vedaśākhās.

Madhav Deshpande

--

[Srinivasakrishnan ln]

Thank you, Prof Deshpande, for several instructive remarks on the subject.  The following remark  you made though thought provoking needs to be taken, I feel, with some counterfactuals:

> One cannot assume that the "original" R̥gveda necessarily contained this sound. 

1. The ळ sound has a northwest-southeast gradient within south Asia. For example, Bangla is a classic example of a language which falls outside this gradient. It has no ळ

2. In Tamil and Malayalam (may be true for Telugu and Kannada too though I cant say), there's a phonemic contrast between ल and ळ. Thus, 'kalam' (vessel) vs 'kaLam' (field), 'kal' (stone) vs 'kaL' (toddy). This is probably not true in north Indian languages which contain the sound. I'm willing to be corrected here.

3. The Gurmukhi script does not have it eventhough Punjabi language does have the sound. It's likewise indeed curious that Panini does not record it while a  treatise concerned with pronunciation such as the Rg Pratisakhya seems to provide for it.

Thanks and Regards,

Srini

Srini

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Srnivasakrishnan,

Do you mean to suggest that Panini was not well versed with Vedic recitation or that the shakha with which he was conversant with would pronounce ड  or ढ in place of ळ?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Sivasenani Nori]

In Telugu, the only example that I can readily think of with a phonemic contrast between l and L is mangalam (a large metallic vessel, used only in sayings like ఉరుము ఉరిమి మంగలం మీద పడ్డది in Andhra and Rayalaseema,  and generally also in Telangana)  versus mangaLam, auspicious.

Regards

N. Siva Senani

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Sri Achut Karveji should desist from making needless comments. I hope you have read and understood what prof Deshpandeji and other scholars said. Did any one say Panini did not Know to pronounce ड  or ढ in place of ळ?

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Madhav Deshpande]

I am attaching a relevant page from my 1979 article on R̥gvedic retroflexion that discusses the situation of ळ in Vedic Saṃhitās.  This is part of a 100 page long article.  If anyone is interested, I can send the whole article privately.  Again, this is a disputed subject, and there are other scholars who have expressed different views.

Madhav Deshpande

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In Telugu 'minimal pairs' establishing the phonemic distinction between l and L are as follows:

kala = dream ; kaLa = art;

kAli = past participle of the verb kAlu =burn; kALi = goddess kALi

........

There is a popular scene of a recent Telugu movie in which a Telugu teacher on his deathbed , daunts his student for pronouncing kaLlu =eyes as kallu = a liquor. 

..........

-L(u) is a plural suffix 

mullu (sing) = thorn  > muLlu (pl) =thorns 

kaalu =leg > kaaLlu =legs

paalu = part/share/portion > paaLlu = parts/shares/portions

......

baDi = school > baLlu =schools

baNDi = cart > baLlu =carts

paNDu =fruit > paLlu = fruits

....... 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> While reciting is ळ pronounced very close ड?

---- ळ and  ड are similar in being retroflex phones. among the retroflex consonants, ळ is closer to ड than to  ट, ठ, ढ  or ण.  

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

Actually the letter ழ் in தமிழ் has in pronunciation of some Tamil words (maybe not all words containing this letter, but yes, some words) has an element of the sound of ड् !!! Note, I am cautiously using the phrase "an element of the sound of ड्". In those pronunciations, it is neither completely ळ् nor completely ड्. By that Tamilians are probably right, that Tamil pronunciations have to be inculcated by being in Tamil environment, not by any formal learning. 

Tamil friends in the group may please comment, better still, with examples of related words and their pronunciations.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

In Marathi two ळs are phonated out of which one is retroflex and the other is not.  For example in बाळ, कमळ, काळ or नाळ   ळ is retroflex however in कळ, मळ, फळ or तळ it is not retroflex.  Thus we find two variations in Marathi one retroflex and the other with a plain blade and neither the retroflex nor the plain  touch the palate.  However in the case of Marathi dialects the ळ is voiced as a dental ल and not as ड़. The conversion of ळ to ड़ however it not so.  The ड़ invariably will be voiced as a touch consonant.

What is the situation in Vedic Sanskrit?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Jul 17, 2017 3:56 AM, "S. L. Abhyankar" <sl.abh...@gmail.com> wrote:

Actually the letter ழ் in தமிழ் has in pronunciation of some Tamil words (maybe not all words containing this letter, but yes, some words) has an element of the sound of ड् !!! Note, I am cautiously using the phrase "an element of the sound of ड्". In those pronunciations, it is neither completely ळ् nor completely ड्. By that Tamilians are probably right, that Tamil pronunciations have to be inculcated by being in Tamil environment, not by any formal learning. 

Tamil friends in the group may please comment, better still, with examples of related words and their pronunciations.

[Srinidhi A]

The sound appear in Marathi,Odia,Gujarati,Rajasthani,Malvi,Nimadi of Madhya Pradesh, Kumouni,Garhwali of Uttarakhand, Haryanvi, some Pahari dialects of Himachal and some dialects of Punjabi. It is absent in Ganga,Jamuna,Brahmaputra plains like Hindi,Bhojpuri,Maithili,Magahi,Bengali,etc in Indo-aryan languages.From THE  INDO-ARYAN LANGUAGES of COLIN  P.  MASICA.