" Punarjanma and Atmagatividya" , a compilation by Sri Vishal Agarwal

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sharing the message by Sri Vishal Agarwal to another group 

Namaskar,

I am attaching a brief compilation that I did on the topic of Atmagati and Punarjanma from a Hindu perspective - looking at our Shaastric as well as modern views/findings. Kindly take a look and revert to me privately with any corrections and edits (thanks to Nithin Sridhar for his corrections - I have not incorporated them yet in this PDF but will do so).

Note that this touches the topic of Karma; and also the question of 'Who am I' only tangentially because these are covered in two separate compilations. Therefore, phenomena like NDE, OBE, Brain Plasticity, ESP, Reiki etc., are not covered in this compilation.

The note of these compilations is to provide a Hindu framework to discuss these topics. They are not exhaustive and cannot be. Otherwise each compilation will be a mini-encyclopedia. Interfaith perspectives are provided and I do not shy away from them.

With regards

Vishal Agarwal

[Lokesh Sharma]

नमस्सर्वेभ्यः

I'm offering my viewpoint here -

पुनर्जन्म as in some entity travelling from one body to another is impossible from perspective of वेदान्त which again and again teaches us the reality of one and only one आत्मा. Even कर्म सिधान्त can't be real in view of वेदान्त for there is no individual जीव to being with.

नमोनमः

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Lokesh Sharma,

Please share references from the three major sources of Vedanta in support of your claims. 

Those talking about punarjanma , karmaphala are quoting from the sources of Vedanta only in support of their claims. 

If you can quote statements to the effect of no punarjanma, no karmaphala or prove that the sources quoted for punarjanma or karmaphala from the major sources of Vedanta as in fact not to be found in those sources, then you can effectively substantiate your claims. 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Senior Director, IndicA

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

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Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Lokesh Sharma]

नमस्ते श्री नागराज जी

This game of quoting scriptures to defend and assert our position is unending and often fruitless unless the intention is of learning rather than just winning. Dualists took the same scriptures and came to conclusion of duality, opposite to that of Advaitins. Many centuries have gone by, times totally changed, countries created and destroyed but the debate hasn't settled and probably never will till प्रलय.

I believe a meaningful debate is only possible if both parties realize within themselves the core philosophy of Vedanta and then debate with the intension of learning rather than winning. Without that it is of no use.

There are hundred citations which prove there's no पुनर्जन्म and there are hundred others which don't. How will quoting scriptures back and forth will help? Instead we should ask within ourselves if पुनर्जन्म is real, why does Vedanta tell us that merely through ज्ञानं we can attain मुक्ति? Why does Vedanta say that ज्ञानं turns कर्म to ashes? If one reflects on this point, it becomes clear that पुनर्जन्म is just another अज्ञानं. When this life in front us is itself a false notion of ours, how can previous lives which no one has seen be real?

नमोनमः

[Krishna Kashyap]

namaste lokesh Ji,

It was interesting reading your views. Though I disagree with you quite strongly, I have no intention to spend time defending one position over other. I think learning and understanding the sources such as the 14 vidya sthanas, though there are different interpretations possible, is a good exercise in shravana and manana. Of course, nidhidhyasana and higher levels of yoga are important. Only if someone can go there and find out about punarjanma finally we know the truth. However, this is an internet medium for exchange of ideas. For this medium shastra charcha is essential and valuable. 

Those who can go to a different level of yoga and find out truth directly need not read this internet info!

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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[Aravinda Rao]

Sri Vishal Agarwal's note is in accordance with scriptures and so is the note of Sri Lokesh. Yet they seem to be clashing because Sri Vishal is talking at the level of empirical reality (vyavaharika satta) and sri Lokesh is talking from the point of absolute reality (paramarthika satta) that we find in the karikas of Gaudapada. Both are right at different levels.

Aravinda Rao

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[Lokesh Sharma]

नमस्ते अरविन्द आचार्य जी

भवतः भगवद्गीतायाः व्याख्यानि मया श्रुतानि। बहु सम्यक् सन्ति।

मम मतेन तु व्यवहारिकजगति अपि पुनर्जन्मस्य सत्ता संशययुक्ता एव। स्पष्टं दृश्यते खलु यदा कस्यचिद् शरीरं मृत्युं प्राप्नोति सः अपि न जीवति।

यदि प्रत्यक्षानुमानानि प्रमाणानि त्यक्त्वा शास्त्रस्य बलेन भवन्तः वदन्ति पुनर्जन्म अस्ति तर्हि शास्त्रबलेन आत्मनः असन्दिग्धसत्ता किमर्थं न अङ्गीकुर्वन्ति जीवस्य सत्तां त्यक्त्वा?

ॐ

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[Madhav Gopal]

Respected Scholars,

Pranams!!

I wish to submit the following on this subject. Your kind comments will help me to bring more clarity on this topic.

Rebirth is very simple to understand in the light of our Sanskrit shastras. Various shastras believe in the concept of sthoola shareera, sukshma shareera and karana shareera. Sukshma shareera is the entity that travels from one body to another following the karma siddhanta. When we die, we die personally, not the whole humanity. It means we have an individual existence. This individual existence is loosely called ‘atman’ which is technically wrong. Technically it is ‘jiva’. It is sukshma shareera which common people call ‘atman’, but they are wrong from the view point of shastras. People should call it only sukshma shareera, not atman, because atman is only one whereas sukshma shareeras are many.

 

So, when a person dies, his sukshma shareera is separated from the sthula shareera. The sthula shareera is cremated and thus finished, or we can say the five elements are now dissolved into their original sources. The sukshma shareera that has just separated from the sthula shareera is also made up of those five elements. Thus, we can say that in the event of death some part of panchabhutas is disowned and some part of panchabhutas continue to be with the jiva in form of sukshma shareera.

 

Now, what will happen to this sukshma shareera? This sukshma shareera, when things are ok according to its karmas, will undergo to rebirth, otherwise will keep on waiting to get suitable circumstances. Thus, this sukshma shareera through the body of a mother will acquire again a sthula shareera.

 

This cycle of rebirth will continue till the time of ultimate liberation. In the event of death after realizing ultimate liberation, the sukshma shareera of that jiva will finally dissolve into the original sources. Thus causing the dead end of the cycle of the rebirth of that jiva.

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Dr. Madhav Gopal

University of Delhi

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[Aravinda Rao]

Namaste, 

Generally in religions we see blind beliefs and logical beliefs. Beliefs of the second category are like hypotheses to explain certain observed facts. 

The blind beliefs are such as saying, 'our God X is the only true god and believers of X alone go to heaven and all others are roasted in hell' etc. 

Logical beliefs arise in order to explain certain phenomena. For instance, if we say that God has created human beings, a question arises as to why someone is created rich and someone is created poor; someone is handsome and someone is lame or blind. Such disparity has to be explained. Otherwise god would be held as kind to some and unkind to some others. We are aware of the vaishamya-nairghrunya adhikaranam in the Brahma Sutra-s which says that God has equal love for all. No favourites and no enemies. He is a karma-phala-daataa. 

One more reason is that the human being has to be held accountable for the good or bad karma he does. It is the basic law of cause and effect. Mere belief in god does not take away the good or bad karma-phala. If religion says that God takes away all your sins if you merely believe in him, then it is like a political party promising doles to people for keeping it in power.

 

Hence the Indian philosophers proposed the idea of karma and karma phala. As the karma phala cannot be experienced in one lifetime, they proposed the idea of rebirth. Such rebirth and death continues so long as the jiva is identified with the body-mind-complex. It is the linga-sarira which is said to transmigrate and the most important part of the linga sarira is the ego, ahamkara. Rebirth continues as long as the ego exists and stops only when the ego is dissolved in the knowledge of Brahman. The mechanism of rebirth is also discussed in the Brahma sutras. Of course, this is what the non-dual system says and it  may not be accepted by other branches of Hinduism.

 

Anyway all Hindu schools accept rebirth and all schools accept that god is neutral. God merely gives good buddhi to do good karma and helps the human being to neutralize the bad result; he himself does not take away the sin. 

Shastra itself talks at two levels for two levels of people and so we cannot debate on it. 

Aravinda Rao

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[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Not only Sanatana Dharama ,(at least the major philosophical schools within Sanatana accepts Law of Karma. Even Buddhists schools accept Karma and rebirth. The answer is not  simple if one reads various schools of Vednata and sub schools within Advaita Vedanta. If One says there is end to the cycle of births and deaths is possible, accommodating concepts of pralaya, Mahapralya, cyclic concepts of time, Isvawara, puranic statements become quite perplexing and difficult.  For Adavita escapes answering Law of Karma simply by saying it is at Vyavaharic level. If there is only one truth then why bother about Karma. lf one accepts the concept of Avatara then the law of Karma breaks down. If an Avatara is free from Law of Karma then why does an Avatara get again into the cycle of Karma.

​Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari

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[Vishal Agarwal]

My purpose in writing the document and many others (will share the one on Karma and Karmavipaaka soon) is contained in the attached file. My compilations are intermediate level readings for those who want to know the most widely held and understood Hindu viewpoints. I have tried my best not to privilege particular Darshanas at the cost of others. Also, I present these topics from an insider's perspective, and largely ignore etic works while being familiar with them.

Regarding why the Avatara enters into the cycle of Karma while being outside it, the answer is what Krishna says in the Gita - I take birth by bring my Maya under control. The Karma-s of an Avarata are Samaarambha, not Aarambha Karma. Krishna himself defines that Karma is 'bhuutabhaavodbhavakara' in chapter 8. In other words, Karma which generates a Bhuutabhaava (bondage, causes the Jiva to be a Bhuutaatmaa) alone is Karma, actions that are free from Kleshas are not really Karmas but rather they are non-Karma.

Regards,

Vishal Agarwal

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