ABVP burns Manusmriti copies in JNU

[V Subrahmanian]

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/abvp-burns-manusmriti-copies-in-jnu/article8328792.ece#.Vt-1mkr7VRY.gmail

The purpose of posting this news item in BVP is with a view to find out if modern scholars of Sanskrit have a stand on these issues. Not only the Manusmriti but also the Mahabharatha has similar verses with other popular scriptural texts not being an exception.  

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[Satish Kumar Dogra]

When ABVP burns copies of Manusmriti, one could see a political motive in it. One could be to please the Dalits in view of the forthcoming elections and the other could be to distant themselves from the charge that ABVP is trying to gain domination in educational institutions in order to bring about saffronisation and a resurgence of the Hindu past.

Burning ancient books is a symbolic rejection of one's history. Today we may disagree with a lot that we find in ancient books, but these remarks were made in a context that is a part of our history. If we have outgrown those narrow feelings, we should be happy. But instead of outright rejection of those ideas, we must put them in their historical perspective. An ancient building may not possess the type of ventilation that modern architecture provides. Yet, for that reason, it would not be logical to bring down that building. It is a part of our heritage and we must protect it.

============================================
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[Nityanand Misra]

On Wednesday, 9 March 2016 11:07:40 UTC+5:30, V Subrahmanian wrote:

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/abvp-burns-manusmriti-copies-in-jnu/article8328792.ece#.Vt-1mkr7VRY.gmail

The purpose of posting this news item in BVP is with a view to find out if modern scholars of Sanskrit have a stand on these issues. Not only the Manusmriti but also the Mahabharatha has similar verses with other popular scriptural texts not being an exception.  

Gott sei Dank, the liberal students standing with women on International Women's Day did not read things like this. Else they may have burnt the wrong book and all hell would have broken loose. 

 

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gott sei Dank, the liberal students standing with women on International Women's Day did not read things like this. Else they may have burnt the wrong book and all hell would have broken loose. 

​This site https://quran.zendesk.com/hc/en-us Doesn't give information about who wrote the translation or any information about themselves. The reliability of such webpages comes into question​

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

Neither they have got courage for that

[sunil bhattacharjya]

This is all happening due to poor knowledge of Indian history and culture, some group of people have.  Manu Smriti was a text valid for the very ancient society. After the Manu Smriti  there were the Gautama Smriti and the Yajnavalkya smriti for the times of Ramayana. Later during the Mahabharata times the the valid Smritis were of Sankha and Likhita. After the Mahabharata times Parashara Smriti is the Smriti to be followed. Ignorant people who are burning the Manu Smriti are living in their imaginary world or they have some ulterior motive behind their agitation by taking up a fake issue.

Regards,

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast. www.avast.com

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[shankara]

Namaste,

I think ABVP is not aware of 6.4.6 and 6.4.7 of Brihadaranyaka Upanishad.

(From English translation by Swami Nikhilananda of RK Math)

6. Now, if a man sees himself (his reflection) in water, he should recite the following mantra: "May the gods bestow on me vigour, manhood, fame, wealth and merit."
In praise of the wife who will bear him a son: She (his wife) has put on the soiled clothes of impurity; she is, verily, loveliness among women. Therefore when she has removed the clothes of impurity and appears beautiful, he should approach her and speak to her.

7. If she does not willingly yield her body to him, he should buy her with presents. If she is still unyielding, he should strike her with a stick or with his hand and overcome her, repeating the following mantra: "With power and glory I take away your glory." Thus she becomes discredited.

 

regards
shankara

---

From: V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>
To: BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 9 March 2016 11:07 AM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} ABVP burns Manusmriti copies in JNU

[kkapoor40]

You have got it wrong Ajit ji. 

Leftists of all hues did burnt photocopies of  Manusmrti + 3 who QUIT JNU ABVP a few days back.

  Those who burnt it should read it also to know what they are burning.

My regards

kapil  kapoor 

Sent from Samsung Mobile

--

[Nityanand Misra]

On Wednesday, 9 March 2016 11:47:39 UTC+5:30, ajit.gargeshwari wrote:

On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 11:36 AM, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gott sei Dank, the liberal students standing with women on International Women's Day did not read things like this. Else they may have burnt the wrong book and all hell would have broken loose. 

​This site https://quran.zendesk.com/hc/en-us Doesn't give information about who wrote the translation or any information about themselves. The reliability of such webpages comes into question​

Mea culpa. I should have linked here, which has English translations by Sahih International, Muhammad Marmaduke Pickthall, Abdullah Yusuf Ali, Muhammad Habib Shakir, Shaykh Muhammad Sarwar, Muhammad Muhsin Khan, and Arthur John Arberry Arberry. I should have also linked to the 30+ English translations of Ephesians 5:22, 5:23, and 5:24 in the New Testament. 

The point I am making is one can easily find similar content in sacred books of other religions. No prizes for guessing why the students chose only the Manusmṛti, which is as sacred a scripture to me (यद्वै किं च॒ मनु॒रव॑द॒त्तद्भे॑ष॒जम्, कृ॰य॰ तै॰सं॰ २.२.१०.२) as the Quran is to a practising Muslim or the New Testament is to a practising Christian: offending Hindus is safe for them. Shows their hypocrisy.

PS: I have not cross-checked the two sites with the published versions of translations for inconsistencies (if any), those interested may do so. 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The whole issue is going berserk:

Leaving aside whether current or ex-members of ABVP are involved or not, protesting a book that has no impact or influence today is just a misplaced misguided diversionary activism .

Reasons:

1. For the handling of the issues covered by Manusmriti , majority of Indians do not follow that book. They follow their own caste -codes and tribe-codes that are secured by their respective caste panchayats. 

2. The particular section mentioned by the news report is 2/213 etc. is part of a section of Manusmriti dealing with the code for a Brahmacharya-bound vidyaarthi living in the residence of his teacher. Hence the code applies only to such vidyaarthis, not to everyone. 

3. Statements are to be viewed from the reference frame, from where they are made. The verses before and after the ones under question are all talking about the behaviour of the vidyaarthi towards the teacher, his wife etc. The verses under question are directed towards the indriyanigraha on the part of the male student are not directed towards the nature of women. 

4. In many western countries, there are regulations not allowing children of opposite sex to share the bed or bed room. 

मात्रा स्वस्रा दुहित्रा वा न विविक्तासनो भवेत् 

is not more weird than this, as this is talking about a sexually mature person. 

5. अर्हति in न स्त्री स्वातंत्र्य मर्हति is similar to अर्हसि in  न स्त्वं शोचितु मर्हसि . Just as in  न स्त्वं शोचितु मर्हसि , the idea is you are too high in stature to weep, in न स्त्री स्वातंत्र्य मर्हति too, the idea is woman is too high in stature to be left to self-protection. The preceding three lines of the verse are talking about protection /looking after /taking care of only. Rule of consistency compels only one meaning to the word स्वातंत्र्य, i.e., being left to self-protection/ self-care, to be left as a destitute only. Thus this unduly notorious line from the book is in fact is ordaining the males not to leave the female members of their family to self-protection. 

6. Male chauvinism is not because of Manusmriti but in spite of it. Male chauvinism is more in societies that do not have Manu smriti. 

7. It is easy to protest currently unused, currently uninfluential books than to be respectful and not lustful towards women. 

8. As long as the universities do not teach their students to critically understand the diversionary propaganda that leaves the lustful to keep the position of women vulnerable, the youngsters keep falling into the trap of such misplaced anger.     

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Let me reword #7 of my previous post, for a better communication of my intentions, as follows:

 

7. It is more advisable to be respectful towards the women other than those with whom lustful relation is mutually agreed upon, than to protest currently unused, currently uninfluential books.

[K S Kannan]

It is only pretended that almost all Hindus are swearing by, and strictly adhering to, the injunctions of Manusmrti, whereas the reality is that even among the "upper classes", less than 0.001 per cent has actually gone through the text even once in their lifetime. Most people know the name of the text only on account of one verse (ably handled by yourself), and nothing more.

Sri Nityananda Mishra has very well set forth the blatant and brazen posturing and speciousness of the protesters.

To heartily concur with Prof Paturi, nothing was deemed beneath dignity than forcing a woman to fend for herself. Such was also the stand taken by Dr DVGundappa, one of the great luminaries of our own times, renowned for his sagacity and wisdom, such as elicited the appreciation even of Ananda Coomaraswamy.

KSKannan

Dr. K.S.Kannan

Professor, 

Centre for Ancient History and Culture,

Jain University

319, 17th Cross, 25th Main,

6th Phase, J P Nagar, Bangalore - 560 078

(Ex-Director, Karnataka Samskrit University)

[Venkatesh Murthy]

Namaste

It is well known Hindu society has oppressed women and even today female babies are aborted. The sex ratio is North Indian states is very bad because of this many eligible males are not even getting girls to marry. It is not a secret today females in India are not respected and even female babies are killed. There are so many problems for parents of girls like dowry and NRI husbands leaving the wives in India and absconding in foreign countries.

But the solution to this is not to burn Manu Smrti. If ABVP is angry about female inequality they have to attack the bad practices of treating women as inequal. Manu Smrti is not connected to this inequality. Conditions in ancient India were not like today. We will not find Manu Smrti saying female babies must be aborted. This female baby abortion is modern invention. Is it not?

[pat...@iitk.ac.in]

I agree with Professor Venkatesh Murthy. Burning of books or pages of
books would take us nowhere.

Incidentally, all societies, not just any particular one, in the past have
been unfair to women, some to a greater, some to a lesser degree perhaps.

I too have not come across any reference to female foeticide (or killing
of girl child after birth) in at least the puranic literature.

Anyway, in the spirit of Professor Murthy, I too think that we must
participate actively in bringing about a change.

Best regards,
B.N.Patnaik

> Namaste
> It is well known Hindu society has oppressed women and even today female
babies are aborted. The sex ratio is North Indian states is very bad
because of this many eligible males are not even getting girls to marry.
It
> is not a secret today females in India are not respected and even female
babies are killed. There are so many problems for parents of girls like
dowry and NRI husbands leaving the wives in India and absconding in
foreign
> countries.
> But the solution to this is not to burn Manu Smrti. If ABVP is angry
about
> female inequality they have to attack the bad practices of treating
women
> as inequal. Manu Smrti is not connected to this inequality. Conditions
in
> ancient India were not like today. We will not find Manu Smrti
> saying female babies must be aborted. This female baby abortion is
modern
> invention. Is it not?
> On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 4:54:59 PM UTC+5:30, ks.kannan.2000
wrote:
>> It is only pretended that almost all Hindus are swearing by, and strictly

>> adhering to, the injunctions of *Manusmrti*, whereas the reality is

>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com <javascript:>>
>>>>> *To:* BHARATIYA VIDVAT <bvpar...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>>
*Sent:* Wednesday, 9 March 2016 11:07 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} ABVP burns Manusmriti copies in JNU

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/abvp-burns-manusmriti-copies-in-jnu/article8328792.ece#.Vt-1mkr7VRY.gmail
The purpose of posting this news item in BVP is with a view to find
out
>>>>> if modern scholars of Sanskrit have a stand on these issues. Not
only
>>>>> the
>>>>> Manusmriti but also the Mahabharatha has similar verses with other
popular
>>>>> scriptural texts not being an exception.
>>>>> regards
>>>>> subrahmanian.v
>>>>> --
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>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>> --
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>> --
>> Dr. K.S.Kannan
>> Professor,
>> Centre for Ancient History and Culture,
>> Jain University
>> 319, 17th Cross, 25th Main,
>> 6th Phase, J P Nagar, Bangalore - 560 078
>> (Ex-Director, Karnataka Samskrit University)

> --
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Retired Professor of English and Linguistics
Indian Institute of Technology Kanpur

Alternative Email: bn.pa...@gmail.com

Blog: http://saralamahabharat.blogspot.com
http://linktopatnaik.blogspot.com
Website: http://bnpatnaik.wordpress.com

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks Prof. Kannan for the supporting observations.

 

Spread of misunderstanding of the line is so widespread that it needs a huge effort to undo that.

 

Thanks,

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

[अलंकार]

Hi,

With all good discussion going on on burning Manusmriti is good but do not agree with the subject of this post, which is wrong. I want to object that the news paper "Hindu"'s title for the news is wrong. There were three people who were connected with ABVP (engaging personally and according to them they are ready to be kicked out from ABVP) in this misadventure but it has no backing from ABVP. It was called by several other Leftist Student unions even after no permission from the JNU University administrators.

If you read different newspapers you'll get gist of it. Actually the media currently do not work as a mediator or balancing actor, it is always tilted towards something and make it news and its title in a way it is catchy and looks wonderful. Any Leftist party's burning of Manusmriti is no news however burning it by BJP, ABVP, or any other right winger is a news and can catch your eyes.

Please avoid such sentimentalization and sensation generated from media at least in this group. I humbly request to change the title of this post to which is the matter we are discussing i.e. "Burning of Manusmriti"

Thanks,

alankar Sharma

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Vidwan Alankar Sharmaji,

 

I agree with you that newspaper title could be misleading, probably for the reasons of sensationalization as you mentioned or with conscious political goals in mind.

 

AadaraNIya Sri V Subrahmanianji just copied the newspaper title as the title of the thread. You may be right in thinking that it helps the purpose of the manipulator, if any. 

 

But since you mention that "There were three people who were connected with ABVP (engaging personally and according to them they are ready to be kicked out from ABVP) in this misadventure but it has no backing from ABVP. It was called by several other Leftist Student unions even after no permission from the JNU University administrators.",

 

may I guess that you have access to some of the youngsters on this campus?

 

If yes, please try to share your knowledge, adding that gained from this forum, among those who are not yet closed in their mind.

 

'Encouraging lustful outlook towards women is the cause of vulnerability of women, not some books which are not used  by anyone today.' should be realized.

 

Thanks for your useful observations.

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[shankara]

Namaste,

Decades of negative propaganda on Manusmriti and similar literature has eventually influenced the views of the right wing also. Please read the article on Manusmriti by Svargiya Ashok Singhalji, wherein he says that ' (we} totally reject the Manu Smriti as it has no place in a civilized & cultured society'.

http://vhp.org/vhps-view-of-manu-smriti-and-other-smritis/

 

I feel that it is the duty of Sanskrit scholars to present a balanced view on Manusmriti before the society.

regards
shankara

---

From: अलंकार <sharma....@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, 10 March 2016 8:21 AM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: ABVP burns Manusmriti copies in JNU

--

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 9:50 AM, 'shankara' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I feel that it is the duty of Sanskrit scholars to present a balanced view on Manusmriti before the society

I agree with

​S​

hankarji  A paper or a book needs to be made accessible to remove distortion and apprehensions raised against the text with historical and social background of the text.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Arya Samaj has an argument that the text that is in wider circulation has many interpolations' Here is a link to a version which the organization calls Visuddh Manu Smriti.

 

Arya Samaj was not happy with the VHP site stuff. Their unhappiness is expressed here.

 

 

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 8:21 AM, अलंकार <sharma....@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

With all good discussion going on on burning Manusmriti is good but do not agree with the subject of this post, which is wrong. I want to object that the news paper "Hindu"'s title for the news is wrong. There were three people who were connected with ABVP (engaging personally and according to them they are ready to be kicked out from ABVP) in this misadventure but it has no backing from ABVP. It was called by several other Leftist Student unions even after no permission from the JNU University administrators.

Here is the news reporting the above, on the same day as the original report emerged: 

http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/at-jnu-caste-trumps-hindutva/article8328823.ece 

subrahmanian.v

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Lets keep ABVP Leftist Student unions JNU University administrators related politics out etc. We should be focusing only on Manusmuriti  Thanks

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Is this not in contradiction with the fact that VHP , a member of Sangh Parivar stated on its website long time back that

 

'' (we} totally reject the Manu Smriti as it has no place in a civilized & cultured society'.'

 

Thus the news item cited latest in the thread is a continuation of the manipulation.

 

On the one hand, the various member organizations of the Sangh Parivar keep on talking about Hindutva unified surpassing all divides including that of caste, the news manipulations of this kind , on the other side, keep reinforcing the stereotype of 'Hindutva' as casteist or caste-based etc.

 

There were news articles blaming Sangh Parivar for forging a Hindutva on the lines of semitic religions, which means unification beyond caste lines and the same news papers blame the idea of 'Hindutva' as casteist and caste-based.

 

Arya Samaj too rejects caste system completely and accepts non-birth-based varNa system. It contends that vishuddh Manu Smriti is in line with their philosophy.

 

In spite of all this, to repeatedly link caste system via Manu Smriti to 'Hindutva' can only be seen as manipulation.  

 

  

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 11:27 AM, V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

David Buxbaum states, "in the opinion of the best contemporary orientalists, it [Manusmriti] does not, as a whole, represent a set of rules ever actually administered in Hindustan. It is in great part an ideal picture of that which, in the view of a Brahmin, ought to be law"

          --David Buxbaum (1998), Family Law and Customary Law in Asia: A Contemporary Legal Perspective, Springer Academic, ISBN 978-9401757942, page 204

Donald Davis writes, "there is no historical evidence for either an active propagation or implementation of Dharmasastra [Manusmriti] by a ruler or any state – as distinct from other forms of recognizing, respecting and using the text. Thinking of Dharmasastra as a legal code and of its authors as lawgivers is thus a serious misunderstanding of its history"

        --Donald Davis (2010), The Spirit of Hindu Law, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0521877046, page 14

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

This is what I wanted to say discussing what Donald Davis or David Buxbaum or others say will help than discussing what political outfits do or have said. Thanks

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

David Buxbaum states, "in the opinion of the best contemporary orientalists, it [Manusmriti] does not, as a whole, represent a set of rules ever actually administered in Hindustan. It is in great part an ideal picture of that which, in the view of a Brahmin, ought to be law"

          --David Buxbaum (1998), Family Law and Customary Law in Asia: A Contemporary Legal Perspective, Springer Academic, ISBN 978-9401757942, page 204

Donald Davis writes, "there is no historical evidence for either an active propagation or implementation of Dharmasastra [Manusmriti] by a ruler or any state – as distinct from other forms of recognizing, respecting and using the text. Thinking of Dharmasastra as a legal code and of its authors as lawgivers is thus a serious misunderstanding of its history"

        --Donald Davis (2010), The Spirit of Hindu Law, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0521877046, page 14

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Ajitji,

It would e more pertinent to refer to any analysis done by any Indian scholar like Swami Dayananda or Sri Aurobindo.

Just my opinion.

Best regards,

Bijoy Misra

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Right All I was sating discussions here should be focused on Manusmriti keeping the politics of political parties outside. That is all Thanks

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Pranava Kumar Vasishta G V]

Respected Scholars,

I believe this a related question to the discussion. This is about the causal entailment of burning a text like Manusmriti or for that matter other blasphemous texts at different points in time.

1. The people who are burning Manusmriti think that their action is going to result in the end of 'discrimination' (this may be a first step in their series of actions) - in the negative sense of the term. Would it result in the end of 'discrimination' which is key for discernment also?

2. Quite contrary to what the actors who are involved in this expect, burning the text, which for the people who are performing the act is full of life personifying the 'evil' they intend to eradicate, are in the process letting the fire consume such 'evil' and thereby raise such kind of smoke which rises to the skies, mixes with the clouds and spreads itself across the board when they shower, which in turn results in the growth of such crops that spread the spirit of that 'evil'.

If on analysis, if the second causal entailment holds, wouldn't it be appropriate for this group to engage in the possibility of strengthening it?

In my little understanding of the study of Dharmasastra-s from Manusmiriti to Parasara Smriti -- and if broadly the Sastra-s are divided as Achara, Vyavahara and Prayaschitta --
(1) I find there is no change in Achara for the entire Manvantara -- so Manusmriti holds;
(2) Vyavahara has changed is what we witness everyday -- so the work of agencies that uphold the Achara should be towards how can the Vyavahara be in line with the Achara.
(3) Prayaschitta-s have been simplified in order to keep the diminished senses of shakti and yukti amongst peoples of the world.

How far can we make causal analyses with the help of our Darsana-s, specifically Nyaya-Vaiseshika and Mimamsa?

Thank you..

Sincerely,
Pranav
Student of Dharmasastra-s and the Constitution of India