Can I know the meaning of this lucky tortoise
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Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj
Nov 12, 2015, 4:15:28 AM11/12/15
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Respected scholars,
I was shown a brass idol of tortoise with snake on its back. Probably it is called a lucky tortoise. I checked in net the meaning behind this but could not get. Though tortoise as such is used in many culture I could not find the meaning of snake on the back of tortoise. Can I get any light from any scholar in this forum?नारायणस्मृतिः
स्वामी करुणाकरानन्दपुरी
Ajit Gargeshwari
Nov 12, 2015, 6:21:18 AM11/12/15
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The images may be related to this narration as seen in wikipedia. I may be wrong experts may please correct me.
In ancient China, the tortoise and the serpent were thought to be spiritual creatures symbolizing longevity. The Fujianese custom of building turtle-shaped tombs may have had to do with the desire to place the grave under the influence of the Black Tortoise. During the Han dynasty, people often wore jade pendants that were in the shape of turtles. Because of ancient Chinese influence on Japan, honorific titles and badges in Japan also often referred to the turtle or tortoise.
The north was associated with a pair of divine beings, the Dark Warrior, a tortoise and snake creature, with the season of winter, and with the color black; however, is also often considered to be a deepish shade of blue. Each of the directions was also associated with one of the wu xing, or five "elements" (sometimes also translated as "phases" or "materials"): that of the north was water. According to Anthony Christie, the tortoise and snake combination was known as the Black Warrior. And, that although the worship of the other directions was an ancient practice, the worship of the north was avoided because the north was considered the dwelling place of a destructive deity of the ocean wind. However, the worship of the north was practiced, with sacrificial ceremonies to the Black Warrior, by the rulers of the Han dynasty, which claimed to rule with the protection of water and the north.[5] Although the Black Warrior (Xuan Wu) is generally depicted as a snake entwining around a turtle, sometimes they are viewed as two separable generals
In ancient China, the tortoise and the serpent were thought to be spiritual creatures symbolizing longevity. The Fujianese custom of building turtle-shaped tombs may have had to do with the desire to place the grave under the influence of the Black Tortoise. During the Han dynasty, people often wore jade pendants that were in the shape of turtles. Because of ancient Chinese influence on Japan, honorific titles and badges in Japan also often referred to the turtle or tortoise.
The north was associated with a pair of divine beings, the Dark Warrior, a tortoise and snake creature, with the season of winter, and with the color black; however, is also often considered to be a deepish shade of blue. Each of the directions was also associated with one of the wu xing, or five "elements" (sometimes also translated as "phases" or "materials"): that of the north was water. According to Anthony Christie, the tortoise and snake combination was known as the Black Warrior. And, that although the worship of the other directions was an ancient practice, the worship of the north was avoided because the north was considered the dwelling place of a destructive deity of the ocean wind. However, the worship of the north was practiced, with sacrificial ceremonies to the Black Warrior, by the rulers of the Han dynasty, which claimed to rule with the protection of water and the north.[5] Although the Black Warrior (Xuan Wu) is generally depicted as a snake entwining around a turtle, sometimes they are viewed as two separable generals
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Bvk sastry
Nov 12, 2015, 8:37:05 AM11/12/15
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Namaste
On snake- tortoise:
1. The pointer by Ajit Gargeswari is in the right direction.
2. Image search with terms-' images snake on tortoise' gives more details on brass images on chinese old copper handwork snake tortoise statue.
3. Japanese legend : Yokai no Sekai : Genbu: Hyeonmu in korean .
This is used as a < personality type reading > model, similar to chinese astrology models.
Black tortoise is one of the four symbols of the chinese constellations. The tortoise and snake are an entire entity: they are not separate . The symbol represents north and the winter season ( direction and season combination image) combined.
According to legends, there are no female tortoise; the tortoise had to mate with snake.
I hope this leads to further exploration of vishnu- vasudeva traditions influence on Buddhism/ saivism and Tantra travelling as a part of tantra- yoga out of sncient India.
Regards
Bvk Sastry
Sent from my iPhone
sadasivamurty rani
Nov 12, 2015, 1:18:47 PM11/12/15
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It has astronomical significance Swamiji!
At the outset let us see the following Sloka of Bhartrhari: -
वहति भुवनश्रॆणीं शेष: फणाफलकस्थितां
कमठपतिना मध्ये पृष्ठं सदा स च धार्यते।
तमपि कुरुते क्रॊडाधीनं पयोधिरनादरात्
अहह निस्सीमान: महतां चरित्रविभूतय:॥ - भर्तृहरिसुभाषितत्रिशत्याम्।
"The Great Serpent Adisesha is bearing the pile of all the Bhuvanas on the surface of His endless hoods. He is always borne at the central place on back of the Lord of Kamathas (Kurma Avatara Vishnu). The Great Ocean (The endless Space) effortlessly brings it into the control of the Varaha form of Vishnu. Oh the virtuous deeds of Great Souls are endless." - Here an astronomical phenomenon is hidden in this sloka of Bhartrhari.
In the astronomical texts like Suryasiddhanta, Kalamanopapatti etc it is said that every planet in our Solar system is in the control of the Sun we see. That controlling power of the Sun is called SESHA SAKTI in those ancient Astronomical texts. According to them our Sun is in the control of Pradyumna Gola. The Controlling power of Pradyumna Gola is technically called KURMA SAKTI. This Pradyumna is in the control of Sankarshana whose power is technically named as Varaha Shakti.
ब्राह्मं दिव्यं तथा पित्र्यं प्राजापत्यं गुरोस्तथा।
सौरं च सावनं चान्द्रमार्क्षं मानानि वै नव॥ (सूर्यसिद्धान्ते)
इत्युक्तनवमानेषु सप्तगत्या खगोळत:।
विनिर्मितानि तन्नूनं भवेतामितरे अपि॥
प्राजापत्यमिति ब्राह्मं खगॊलगतिहेतुके।।
तदर्कमाला गतिहेतुकं तत् महायुगस्स्यान्न हि तावता मे।
तृप्तिस्ततोऽस्या: गतिरस्ति कृष्टॆ: प्रद्युम्ननाम्नोऽपि विचिन्त्यमेतत्॥
संकर्षणस्यात्मकृष: स याति प्रदक्षिणं चैव सदीर्घवृत्ते।
वदेदिति ज्योतिषविश्रुता सा ब्रह्माण्डकक्षाऽस्य भवेद्धि कक्षा॥ - कालमानोपपत्तौ २४ पुटे।
This astronomical phenomenon has its reference in the said beautiful sloka of Bhartrhari.
The brass idol of a Snake lying on the back of a Tortoise is a part this event only.
Warm regards,
Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty
From: Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj <swamikarun...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, 12 November 2015 2:45 PM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Can I know the meaning of this lucky tortoise
Ajit Gargeshwari
Nov 12, 2015, 4:22:13 PM11/12/15
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I thought of it, But that don't you think The Japanese or Chinese legend fit the context of the photographs rather than the Indian mythological story? "Chinese folk brass fengshui lucky tortoise"
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
sadasivamurty rani
Nov 12, 2015, 9:30:50 PM11/12/15
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Dear Ajit Ji!
Good morning!
Here I would like to mention a few things.
1. In the source mail of this thread Swamiji said that he was shown the brass idol. But where it was shown is not specified. Hence I tried to correlate this Ancient Indian Astronomical content.
2. I would like to call this a mythological phenomenon than a mythological thought.
As we call the Sun as Surya according to Astronomical texts the attracting Planet of the Sun is called Pradyumna and its attracting planet is called Sankarshana. The powers of these three were named Sesha Sakthi, Kurma Sakti and Varaha Sakti. The visible Galaxy is known as Milky way. Hence if we can interrelate these astronomical features The Force of the Sun i.e. Sesha is in the control of Kurma sakti (Borne by Kurma) and that Kurma Sakti is in the control of Varaha (Kurma was borne on tusks of the Varaha along with the Bhuvanas and Sesha on its back).
3. As our Indian knowledge migrated to the foreign lands in many ways through the long passage of time, this Kurma yantra also might have migrated to those places at any particular point of time.
4. Fengshui is related to Buddhisim. So along with Buddhism this age old thought also might have reached those places.
5. I have seen Kurma Yantra in this shape in many places. For instance I am giving a better version of Kurma Yantra in the attachment of this mail. Please observe in which there are : Eight Nagas (Quarterly elephants, Sesha and above them the Sumeru Sri yantra)
Power is off in our area now. I shall post it later.
REgards,
Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty
From: Ajit Gargeshwari <ajit.gar...@gmail.com>
To: भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 13 November 2015 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Can I know the meaning of this lucky tortoise
sadasivamurty rani
Nov 12, 2015, 9:40:45 PM11/12/15
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Ajit Ji,
As there was interruption for sometime in the power supply in our are I had to post my previous mail without the Kurma Yantra picture attached to it.
I have seen Kurma Yantras of this type in dozens of shapes in many stone carvings on several Indian temples also.
I can further another snap in the afternoon from Kapila Tirtham Temple one of the ancient temples of Tirupati.
You can be pleased to see it in this mail.
Regards,
Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty
From: 'sadasivamurty rani' via भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत् <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, 13 November 2015 8:00 AM
Ajit Gargeshwari
Nov 12, 2015, 9:49:14 PM11/12/15
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Thanks for sharing the Kurma Yantra picture. Does variation of Kurma Yantra have a coiled serpent on the tortoise as seen in the photograph shown by the Swami ji.? The pictures the Swami ji has shown can also be linked to the Kundalini. Depiction of kundalini as coiled serpent is quite common in iconography. Serpant is also depicted in jaina iconography.
As already said turtle is scared in several cultures but serpent on tortoise back as shown in the picture is common in Chinese and Japanese art works such as fengshui in astrology etc.
3. As our Indian knowledge migrated to the foreign lands in many ways through the long passage of time, this Kurma yantra also might have migrated to those places at any particular point of time.
We have to first know for sure when was Kurma Yantra widely used was it was in Buddhist or Barhmanical or outside brahmanical sources. If you could please point out to any literature on Kurma Yantra it would be much appreciated.
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
sadasivamurty rani
Nov 12, 2015, 10:12:49 PM11/12/15
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Thanks for your fast aknowledgement of mail.
1. I surely saw such variations of Kurma Yantra in many temples and else where. I have seen the idol with coiled serpent on the back of tortoise also some where. I shall try to go to that Kapila Tirtham Temple and snap the picture from its outer walls. Even inside the sanctum sanctorum there was the tortoise its back the coiled Snake over the head of which the Earth and over it the Idol of Siva. But it cannot be photographed.
So I can snap from the outside walls of the temple and present it here in the afternoon.
The main obstacle is it has been heavily raining here for the last three days due to cyclonic effect. So I shall find my convenient time to post further.
2. Very interestingly Varahamihira in his Brhatsamhita compares entire Bharata Desa with Kurma and presents the geographical divisions of our country by name Kurma Vibhaga or Kurma Chakra.
Kurma Chakra
Kurma (tortoise) Chakra is used to find the places and directions of
malefic or benefic events with in a country. Here is an example how
Kurma Chakra is used for the various states in India:
Central: U.P. M.P., Rajasthan, Harayana.
E: Bihar, Orissa, Bengal, Assam etc.
S-E: Tripura, Orissa, Chattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh.
S: Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh.
S-W: Goa, Maharasthra, Gujrat
W: Maharashtra, Gujrat, Punjab, Rajasthan.
N-W: Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Uttaranchal Pradesh
N: Kashmir, (Nepal), Uttaranchal Pradesh.
N-E: Sikkim, (Bhutan), Assam, Arunachal.
Kurma (tortoise) Chakra is used to find the places and directions of
malefic or benefic events with in a country. Here is an example how
Kurma Chakra is used for the various states in India:
Central: U.P. M.P., Rajasthan, Harayana.
E: Bihar, Orissa, Bengal, Assam etc.
S-E: Tripura, Orissa, Chattisgarh, Andhra Pradesh.
S: Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, Andhra Pradesh.
S-W: Goa, Maharasthra, Gujrat
W: Maharashtra, Gujrat, Punjab, Rajasthan.
N-W: Kashmir, Himachal Pradesh, Uttaranchal Pradesh
N: Kashmir, (Nepal), Uttaranchal Pradesh.
N-E: Sikkim, (Bhutan), Assam, Arunachal.
Please find the picture presented in the attachment.
|
Dr. Rani Sadasiva Murty
Sent: Friday, 13 November 2015 8:18 AM
Ajit Gargeshwari
Nov 12, 2015, 10:15:49 PM11/12/15
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Thank you very much for answering my questions.
Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।
Nityanand Misra
Nov 12, 2015, 10:44:03 PM11/12/15
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Svami Ji,
I do not
know the origins of the motif, but Tulasīdāsa in the Rāmacaritamānasa (composed between 1574 and 1576) does allude to the
king of serpents, who supports the earth, resting on the shell of a tortoise.
The reference is in this Harigītikā just
before the 35th Dohā of the
Sundarakāṇḍa (5.35.12):
सहि सक न भार उदार अहिपति बार बारहिं मोहई।
गह दसन पुनि पुनि कमठ पृष्ट कठोर सो किमि सोहई॥
रघुबीर रुचिर प्रयान प्रस्थिति जानि परम सुहावनी।
जनु कमठ खर्पर सर्पराज सो लिखत अबिचल पावनी॥
English translation by
Frederic Salmon Growse (1914), The Rámáyana of Tulsi Dás, Sixth edition (revised and corrected), Allahabad: Ram Narain Lal Publisher and Bookseller, p. 505:
“The huge serpent king could not support the burden; he staggered again and again, but each time saved himself by clutching in his jaws the hard shell of the tortoise; as though he had mastered the stupendous theme of Raghubir’s glorious expedition, and were inscribing it on the tortoise's back as the most imperishable material to be had.”
https://archive.org/stream/rmyanaoftuls00tulauoft#page/505/mode/1up
Thanks, Nityanand
Nagaraj Paturi
Nov 13, 2015, 4:59:56 AM11/13/15
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During the same period (16th century AD) , MollaraamaayaNamu is authored by Molla, a woman-poetess in Telugu.
In the Balakandamu of this book, she describes Lakshmana as cautioning the chain of 'holders' of the earth to watch out, take care and hold each other tightly so that the earth-shaking effect created by Rama's 'breaking' of Shivadhanus was going to create.
Snake over a Tortoise is part of the chain of holders of the earth in this description.
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
Venkata Sriram
Nov 13, 2015, 10:58:00 AM11/13/15
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Pujya Misra Ji and Pujya Swamiji,
Apart from turtle, there is a sentiment of having fish (matsya) at home. That is the reason, fish aquarium has come up that adorns the living rooms of most of the people.
Traditionally, at the time of construction of home, a matsya yantra is put inside and plastered. This is to ward off vastu doshas.
Later, in due course of time, turtles and fishes got replaced.
regs,
sriram
Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj
Nov 16, 2015, 3:58:24 AM11/16/15
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Respected scholars,
My thanks to all the scholars who have contributed possible answers to my question on snake on tortoise.नारायणस्मृतिः
स्वामी करुणाकरानन्दपुरी
--
Karunakarananda
Karunakarananda
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