Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्पर िषत्} Image worship in the vedas
Hnbhat B.R.
a Tasya Pratima Asti - what it means
As we all know, one shloka of from this important sukta 32.3 "Na Tasya Pratima Asti" is highly misqouted by anti Hindu and evil people like Jakir Naik.
Though everybody knows people like Jakir Naik are giving example of their evil deeds, they have no affinity with Vedas but only purpose is to fool Hindus and even muslims. Such lies has been exposed many a times.
This post provides the proper explanation. Please must read and share as much as possible.
Sunil KBRegards,Shankaraji,After reading what the Paripurna Brahman Lord Krishna himself told Arjuna I did not feel the need to look for any other reference on the Image-worship. Lord Krishna said that the image worship is for the alpabuddhinam (i.e. obviously for the beginners in the spiritual journey). He said that the Samadarshis see God everywhere.
--On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 9:14 AM, shankara <shanka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bhattacharyaji,
I starting this search only after listening to a discourse against 'Image woship' in which the speaker had quoted 'na tasya pratima asti'. I felt that he has misinterpreted it. Do you know any book which discusses this topic in detail. In my search I found some books that discuss this topic here & there but not in detail.
Are you sure 'pratima svalpabuddhinam' is Krishna's statement? It is not there in the Gita. Is it from Bhagavata?regards
shankara
From: sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>
To: shanka...@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, 31 May 2013 9:34 PM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Image worship in the vedas
Have you considered the Yajur Veda statement "na tasya pratima asti" as well as Lord Krishna's statement "Pratima alpabuddhinam"Regards,Sunil KB
On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 12:02 AM, shankara <shanka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
--Pranams to all,I am looking for books or journal articles about 'Image worship in the Vedas'. Any info on this subject will be highly appreciated.regards
shankara
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Research Scholar(Retd),
Shrikant Jamadagni
| Well said indeed about the shruti 'na pratima asti'. I believe quotation of this line to condemn 'image-worship' was started by Swami Dayananda Saraswati. As with so many things the revered Swami is misguided on this. regards Shrikant Jamadagni Bangalore --- On Sat, 1/6/13, Hnbhat B.R. <hnbh...@gmail.com> wrote: |
सा. श्रेयसः
Nityanand Misra
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:12:12 PM UTC+8, सा. श्रेयसः wrote:
नमो विद्वद्भ्यःDear Dr. Bhat and scholars,Please see the attached discussion on "नतस्य प्रतिमा अस्ति" wrt स्वर-प्रक्रिया extracted from the text "वैदिक-स्वर-मीमांसा" by Pandit Yudhistar Meemansak.Though the author does not explicitly state that here, it appears that he has applied अनुदात्तम पदमेकवर्जम (६-१-१५८), to show that "नतस्य" has to be split into two padams - "न + तस्य" (as both न् and त् are उदात्तम्) , thereby leading to the choice of one possible interpretation over the the other (unsatisfactory) alternative.
The more relevant question is whether प्रतिमा in this verse stands for प्रतिनिधि/मूर्ति (as the Arya Samajis and Pt. Yudhishthir Mimamsaka interpret) or प्रतिमान/सादृश्य (as most of the other commentators interpret).
And if taken as मूर्ति here, then what about other Vedic verses in संहिताs like कासीत्प्रमा प्रतिमा किं निदानं (ऋग्वेद १०-१३०-३), सहस्रस्य प्रतिमासि (यजुर्वेद १५-६५), संवत्सरस्य प्रतिमां यां त्वा रात्र्युपास्महे (अथर्ववेद ३-१०-३), et cetera? And we are not going into आरण्यक, ब्राह्मण and उपनिषद् even though the traditional position is मन्त्रब्राह्मणयोर्वेदनामधेयम् (आ.श्रौ. २४-१-३१), since Swami Dayananda and Arya Samajis take only मन्त्र (संहिता) part as वेद.
If one श्रुति says no प्रतिमा, other श्रुतिs talk about प्रतिमा of अग्नि and even उपासना of रात्रि which is प्रतिमा of संवत्सर, then प्रतिमा has to be interpreted very carefully.
The Arya viewpoint has been answered in detail by Jwalaprasad Mishra in दयानन्दतिमिरभास्करः, 1920, Khemraj Shrikrishnadass, 4th edition, pages 350 to 407.
sunil bhattacharjya
Dr. Ramanujan
मान्याः
न तस्य इति च्छेदः एव साधीयान् ।
प्रतिमा इत्यस्य मूर्तित्वपक्षे इयत्ताराहित्यं, प्रकृतैतावत्त्वं प्रतिषेधतीति ब्रह्मसूत्रनयेन द्रष्टव्यम् । ब्रह्मणः अनन्तत्वात् । नतु मूर्तिसामान्यनिषेधः । सादृश्यपक्षः युक्ततरः ।
तथाहि - यत्ते रूपं कल्याणतमं तत्ते पश्यामि (वा.सं. 40.) इति, नारायणपरो ज्योतिः, तं देवा ज्योतिषां ज्योतिः आयुर्होपासतेऽमृतम्, वेदाहमेतं पुरुषं महान्तमादित्यवर्णं तमसः परस्तात्, हिरण्मयः पुरुषो दृश्यते हिरण्यश्मश्रुर्हिरण्यकेश आप्रणखात्सर्व एव सुवर्णः तस्य यथा कप्यासं पुण्डरीकमेवमक्षिणी, माहारजनं वासः, यमेवैष वृणुते तेन लभ्यः तस्यैष आत्मा विवृणुते तनूं स्वाम्,
रुद्रो वा एष यदग्निस्तस्यैते तनुवौ घोराऽन्या शिवाऽन्या, यच्छतरुद्रीयं जुहोति यैवाऽस्य घोरा तनूस्तां तेन शमयति, यद्वसोर्धारां जुहोति यैवास्य शिवा तनूस्तां तेन प्रीणाति,
तस्मिन्सुपर्णो मधुकृत्कुलायी भजन्नास्ते मधु देवताभ्यः । तस्यासते हरयः सप्त तीरे स्वधां दुहाना अमृतस्य धाराम्, तद्विप्रासो विपन्यवो जागृवाँसः समिन्धते विष्णोर्यत्परमं पदम्,
तस्मान्मध्यतोज्योतिरुपास्महे (तै.सं. 5.2.9.1), ज्योतिश्चरणाभिधानात् (ब्र.सू.), श्रीमन्नारायणचरणौ शरणं प्रपद्ये, बृहत्ते विष्णो सुमतिं भजामहे, यस्समिधा य आहुती यो वेदेन ददाश मर्तो अग्नयो । यो नमसा स्वध्वरः (ऋ.सं. 8.19.5),
एतत्साम गायन्नास्ते, येनयेन धाता गच्छति तेनतेन सह गच्छति, स तत्र पर्येति जक्षत् क्रीडन् रममाणः, तत्त्वा यामि ब्रह्मणा वन्दमानः तदाशास्ते यजमानो हविर्भिः । अहेडमानो वरुणेह बोध्युरुशँसमा न आयुः प्रमोषीः, अथा ते स्याम वरुण प्रियासः, तव प्रियासः सूरिषु स्याम, पश्येम शरदश्शतं, यस्य देवे परा भक्तिः यथा देवे तथा गुरौ (श्वे. उ.)
ततो ह जज्ञे भुवनस्य गोपाः । हिरण्मयः शकुनिर्ब्रह्म नाम । येन सूर्यस्पति तेजसेद्धः । पिता पुत्रेण पितृमान् योनियोनौ । नावेदविन्मनुते तं बृहन्तम् । सर्वानुभुमात्मानँ सम्पराये । एष नित्यो महिमा ब्राह्मणस्य । न कर्मणा वर्धते नो कनीयान्, हँसः शुचिषद्वसुरन्तरिक्षसद्धोता वेदिषदतिथिर्दुरोणसत् । नृषद्वरसदृतसद्व्योमसदब्जा गोजा तजा अद्रिजा ऋतं बृहत्,
स सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुषः । सहस्राक्षः सहस्रपात् । भूत्वोदतिष्ठत्, अन्तरतः कूर्मं भूतँ सर्पन्तम् ।, स वराहो रूपं कृत्वोपन्यमज्जत्, मृगो न भीमः कुचरो गिरिष्ठाः परावत आजगामा परस्याः, युवा सुवासाः परिवीत आगात् । स उ श्रेयान् भवति जायमानः । तं धीरासः कवय उन्नयन्ति । स्वाधियो मनसा देवयन्तः, अजायमानो बहुधा विजायते । तस्य धीराः परिजानन्ति योनिम्
इत्यादिभिः भगवतः विभिन्नरूपधारणं भक्तानुग्रहाय तदा तदा संभवतीति विज्ञायते ।
विष्णोः कर्माणि पश्यत इति तल्लीलानां भक्तधारकत्वं, आस्य जानन्तो नाम चिद्विवक्तन इति नाम संकीर्तनस्य, विपश्चित् पवमानाय गायत इति तद्गुणगानस्य, त्रीणि शता त्रीषहस्राण्यग्निम् । त्रिँशच्च देवा नव चासपर्यन्न् इति वरिवस्या तु शुश्रूषा परिचर्याप्युपासना इति कोशोक्त पूजापर्यायशब्दानां श्रवणात् चेति बहुधा बहुत्र श्रुतिषु सोपचारा भगवत्लपर्या सपर्या विहिता ।
भागवतापचारेण महती विनष्टिश्च यत्किं चेदं वरुण दैव्ये जनेऽभिद्रोहं मनुष्याश्चरामसि । अटित्ती यत्तव धर्मा युयोपिम मा नस्तस्मादेनयो देव रीरिषः इति प्रार्थनात् ज्ञायते ।
न तत्समश्चाभ्यधिकश्च दृश्यते, तेन कोऽर्हति स्पर्धितुम्, तेनाऽर्हति ब्रह्मणा स्पर्धितुं कः इत्यादौ तस्य निरुपमत्वश्रवणात् प्रतिमा सादृश्यं वक्तीति सुवचम् ।
रामानुजः
From: Nityanand Misra [mailto:nmi...@gmail.com]
Sent: 05 June 2013 03:21
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Cc: skbhatt...@gmail.com; shankara; Sogathur Ramanujachariar; P. V. Satakopa Tatacharya
Subject: Re: Image worship in the vedas - न तस्य प्रतिमा अस्ति
On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 9:12:12 PM UTC+8, सा. श्रेयसः wrote:
नमो विद्वद्भ्यः
Dear Dr. Bhat and scholars,
Please see the attached discussion on "नतस्य प्रतिमा अस्ति" wrt स्वर-प्रक्रिया extracted from the text "वैदिक-स्वर-मीमांसा" by Pandit Yudhistar Meemansak.
Though the author does not explicitly state that here, it appears that he has applied अनुदात्तम पदमेकवर्जम (६-१-१५८), to show that "नतस्य" has to be split into two padams - "न + तस्य" (as both न् and त् are उदात्तम्) , thereby leading to the choice of one possible interpretation over the the other (unsatisfactory) alternative.
The more relevant question is whether प्रतिमा in this verse stands for प्रतिनिधि/मूर्ति (as the Arya Samajis and Pt. Yudhishthir Mimamsaka interpret) or प्रतिमान/सादृश्य (as most of the other commentators interpret).
And if taken as मूर्ति here, then what about other Vedic verses in संहिताs like कासीत्प्रमा प्रतिमा किं निदानं (ऋग्वेद १०-१३०-३), सहस्रस्य प्रतिमासि (यजुर्वेद १५-६५), संवत्सरस्य प्रतिमां यां त्वा रात्र्युपास्महे (अथर्ववेद ३-१०-३), et cetera? And we are not going into आरण्यक, ब्राह्मण and उपनिषद् even though the traditional position is मन्त्रब्राह्मणयोर्वेदनामधेयम् (आ.श्रौ. २४-१-३१), since Swami Dayananda and Arya Samajis take only मन्त्र (संहिता) part as वेद.
If one श्रुति says no प्रतिमा, other श्रुतिs talk about प्रतिमा of अग्नि and even उपासना of रात्रि which is प्रतिमा of संवत्सर, then प्रतिमा has to be interpreted very carefully.
The Arya viewpoint has been answered in detail by Jwalaprasad Mishra in दयानन्दतिमिरभास्करः, 1920, Khemraj Shrikrishnadass, 4th edition, pages 350 to 407.
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shankara
shankara
From: Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Cc: skbhatt...@gmail.com; shankara <shanka...@yahoo.com>; Sogathur Ramanujachariar <ra...@cdac.in>; P. V. Satakopa Tatacharya <srith...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 5 June 2013 3:20 AM
Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Re: Image worship in the vedas - न तस्य प्रतिमा अस्ति
--Dr. Hari Narayana Bhat B.R. M.A., Ph.D.,
Research Scholar(Retd),
Ecole française d'Extrême-OrientCentre de Pondichéry16 & 19, Rue Dumas
--