Why should we celebrate Chaitri-cum-Vasanti Navratra on Sunday, March 14, 2021?
A K Kaul
Madhivanan
Venkatesh Murthy
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Madhivanan
A K Kaul
Dear Dr. Madhivanan,
Jai Shri Ram!
Many thanks for your mail.
First of all, I must congratulate you for proving "beyond all the reasonable" (and even unreasonable!) doubts through your website at: https://madhivanan.in/saptarishis-used-tropical-zodiac/ that Saptarshis followed tropical Rashis within which were subsumed Ashvini, Bharni etc. 27 equal (Sayana) nakshatra divisions from which Vimshottari Dasha-Bhuktis were calculated
It is really an eye opener for the entire nirayana astrological fraternity that it is not only Western astrologers but even "Saptarshis" who followed/used tropical Rashis!
In fact, we find Ashvini, Bharni etc. 27 equal nakshatra divisions subsumed in tropical Rashis in Srimad Bhagavata 5/22/5-7 which has said:
अथ स एष आत्मा लोकानां द्यावा पृथिव्योरन्तरेण नभोवलयस्य कालचक्रगतो द्वादशमासान् भुङ्क्ते राशि संज्ञान सम्वत्सरावयवान् मासः पक्षद्वयं दिवा नक्तं चेति सपादार्क्षद्वयमुपदिशन्ति यावता शष्ठमंशं भुञ्जीत स वै ऋतुरित्युपदिश्यते संवत्सरावयवः |5|
“The sun-god, who is the soul of the worlds, mounted on the wheel of time, which is poised in the upper air, midway between earth and heaven, passes through the twelve months that make up the year and are known by the names of different zodiacal signs like Mesha, Vrisha etc. The month consists of two fortnights, the dark and the bright, according to the lunar reckoning. It is one day and one night (for the manes). And in the course of one month the sun transits the space occupied by two constellations (nakshatras) and a quarter. The period he takes to traverse one sixth of the length of the zodiac is called a season, another division of the year.”
I have explained all these facts in an article at
https://pragyata.com/when-should-pongal-makar-samkranti-be-celebrated-and-why/ in a detailed manner.
Now coming to your question
Quote
So, if Madhu masa is linked to the seasons, then it cannot be equated with lunar months, because lunar months will keep drifting with respect to the seasons over the centuries as mentioned above. For example, if madhu masa (a particular season) happened in the month of Chaitra (obviously, lunar) 4000 years ago, it will happen in the month of Phalguna 2000 years ago, and in the month of Magha, in our times (now).
So my first question is should we celebrate Vasantha navratri during the start of spring season (Madhu masa) or in the lunar month of Chaitra?
Unquote
I find that you have discussed all these "objections" yourself in detail in your own article at the above website and summarized your views as
Quote
Summing it up
Though our saptarishis used a tropical zodiac, this knowledge was lost because of the onset of Kali yuga and various cultural onslaughts. As mentioned by the Calendar Reform Committee, Graeco-Chaldean influence corrupted our Vedic knowledge around 250 BC, and what survived was not the pristine wisdom of our rishis but a hybrid of Graeco-Chaldean-Vedic thought. As a result, sidereal zodiac began to be followed since 400 AD despite the fact that our rishis advocated a tropical zodiac, as revealed in the verses of Saptarishi Nadi. Therefore, it is high time we restored this long-lost aspect of Vedic astrology.
Unquote
In any case, I will be writing separately as to how we drifted to the niraadhaar nirayana from the scriptural sayana!
Now coming to your points < "As i understand, chaitra, vaishaka, jyestha, etc.. are lunar months, and they are named for the nakshatra during/end of the full moon thithi. The seasons are determined by the revolution of the earth around the sun and the earth's tilt (23.5 degrees, as of now), and therefore the seasons are solar (tropical). To clarify, seasons are linked to the tropical/solar calendar. But the lunar months are sidereal.>
This in fact is a very wrong impression that has got ingrained into our psyche since linking Chaitra to Chitra-Purnima and so on is a very late phenomenon----much after the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. I have explained the dichotomy in detail in my article in "Pragyata" as to how Bhishma Pitamaha also was talking of a lunar Magha which was equivalent to Tapas month of the Vedanga Jyotihsa in the following words
Quote
Let us now see the epics:
Mahabharata----Bhishma Nirvana tithi
Mahabharata, Shanti Parva 48/3 (Gita Press edition)
निवृत्तमात्रे त्वयन उत्तरे वै दिवाकरे| समावेशयदात्मानमात्मन्येव समाहितः ||
शुक्ल्पक्षस्याष्टम्यां माघमासस्य पार्थिव| प्रजापत्ये च नक्षत्रे मध्यं प्राप्ते दिवाकरे ||
"As soon as the Sun, passing the solstitial point, entered in his northerly course, Bhishma, with concentrated attention, caused his soul (as connected with and independent of the body) to enter his soul (in its independent and absolute state).
It was the eighth tithi of the bright lunar half of the month of Magha, Moon was in Rohini nakshatra and the time was mid-day". (K. M. Ganguly translation)
Then in Anushasana Parva 167/5-7 we read
उषित्वा शर्वरीः श्रीमान् पन्चाशन्नगरोत्तमे || समयं कौरवाग्र्यस्य सस्मार पुरुषोत्तमः ||
स निर्ययौ गजपुराद् याजकै परिवारितः | दृष्ट्वा निवृत्तमादित्यं प्रवृत्तं चोत्तरायणम् ||
"After having stayed for fifty nights in Hastinapur and on seeing that Uttarayana had already started, Lord Krishna remembered the time of departure of Bhishma and went out of Hastinapur together with Brahmins etc."
दिष्ट्या प्राप्तोअसि कौन्तेय सहामात्यो युधिष्ठिर| परिवृत्तो भगवान् सहस्रांशुर् दिवाकरः |26|
अष्टपञ्चाशतं रात्र्यः शयानस्याद्य मे गताः | शरेषु निशिताग्रेषु यथा वर्षशतं तथा |27|
माघोयम् समनुप्राप्तो मासः सौम्यो युधिष्ठिर | त्रिभागशेषः पक्षोयं शुक्लो भवितुमर्हति |28|
"(Bhishma said) O Yudhishthira! The thousand-rayed maker of day, the holy Surya has begun his northward course. I have been lying on my bed here for eight and fifty nights. Stretched on these sharp pointed arrows I have felt this period to be as long as if it was a century. O Yudhishthira, the lunar month of Magha has come. This is, again, the lighted fortnight and a fourth part of it ought by this (according to my calculations) be over." (K. M. Ganguly translation)
As is common knowledge, Bhishma had a boon that he could shed off his mortal coil only when he desired to do so. He had waited for 58 days on his bed of arrows for the same. Why? Since he did not want to be born again in this world, for which he had to wait for a particular combination of time periods like:
In the Gita, the crest-jewel of the Mahabharata, Lord Krishna has said in 8/24
अग्निर्ज्योतिरहः शुक्लः षण्मासा उत्तरायणम् | तत्र प्रयाता गच्छन्ति ब्रह्म ब्रह्मविदो जनाः ||
"Those who have realized the Brahman, when they pass away during the period presided over by agni, day time, the bright lunar half and the six months of Uttarayana, they attain Para Brahma (and do not return to this mundane world again)"
Uttarayana means when the sun turns North. And this can happen only and only on the shortest day of the year i.e. the Winter Solstice. The six months from that date include the solar as well as lunar six months. They must start after the shortest day of the year. It must also be the bright half of the lunar month.
And Bhishma, after having had fatal injuries, was waiting for 58 days for such an auspicious moment. And that is what he informed Bhagwan Krishna that as it was Uttarayana already, and also the bright lunar half of Magha, so it was time for him to depart".
Lunar Magha starts with the first new moon after the Winter Solstice :
The Mahabharata war is supposed to have taken place anywhere between 5th century BCE and 5561 BCE. Let us take (quite arbitrarily!) a sort of central year of that span of about 5000 years which has been supposed to be 3139 BCE by some scholars. Chitra/Lahiri Ayanamsha these days is about -24 degrees and it is being used by all the panchangas including the Rashtriya Panchanga to decide solar, lunar months and festivals etc.
Thus these days "Lahiri sidereal Uttarayana-cum-solar-Magha" (Lahiri Winter Solstice!) is taking place on January 14/15 i.e. after 24 days of the actual Uttarayana---the shortest day of the year. In 3139 BCE, the same Lahiri/Chitra Ayanamsha was +47 degrees which means "Lahiri sidereal Uttarayana" at the time of Bhishma's Nirvana was 48 days before the real Uttarayana, the shortest day of the year. The real Uttarayana in 3139 BCE was on January 14 (TDT) then and it was Pausha Shukla Shashthi as per the VJ system on that date. Magha Shukla Ashtami was on February 18, 3139 BCE, when Bhishma could have shed off his mortal coil.
On the other hand, "Lahiri/Chitra Uttarayana" had started on Nov. 29, 3140 BCE (TDT). It was "Lahiri sidereal" Pausha Krsihna Chaturthi on that date and "Lahiri sidereal" Magha Shukla Ashtami would have been on December 18, 3140 BCE (TDT). That also means "Lahiri Magha Shukla Ashtami" was 26 days before the real Utttarayana i.e. the shortest day of the year and two months before the real Magha Shukla Ashtami, just as these days (Lahiri sidereal) Bhishma Ashtami is being celebrated one month after the actual Bhishma Ashtami!
So the earlier we get rid of such a so-called nirayana---whether Lahiri sidereal or Chitra sidereal etc.---mess, the better!
Unquote
<Shri Bal gangadhar tilak in his book, "Orion or researches into the antiquity of the Vedas," writes in the 2nd chapter, "Sacrifice alias the year" thus:
"The difference between the sidereal and the tropical year is 20.4 minutes, which causes the seasons to fall back nearly one lunar month in about every two thousand years, if the sidereal solar year be taken as the standard of measurement.">
I am attaching an article in English "Why we must reform the Hindu calendar" which has been translated by Shr T V Sivaraman from Chennai into Malyalam and has appeared in the Malyalam version of "Reformed Hindu Panchang" published by Shri K M Rajan, to whom a copy is being endorsed.
You will find from this article that we do not find any references, even by mistake, to any sidereal year in any of the Vedas or the Vedangas or Puranas or siddhantas, but only to seasonal years.
<According to "The Indian Calendar" authored by Robert Sewell and Sankara Balkrishna Dikshit in 1896, in Part one under the heading "The Hindu Calendar", article 41 titled "Lunar months and their names", S B D states thus: 'The names "Madhu'" and others evidently refer to certain seasons and may be called season-names to distinguish them from " Chaitra " and those others which are derived from the nakshatras.'>
S B Dikshit has himself said in his "Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra" (attachment "SBDikshit-Vedic months are lunar") it was extremely difficult to calculate solar Samkrantis and therefore, only lunar months were used by the Vedic seers, though the (solar) year was tropical.
Since there were no solar months, there were no names like Mesha etc. Rashis for the same. Thus Dikshit has given the details of lunar months viz. Madhu, Madhava etc. which were aligned to seasons!
Dikshit has also said that he did not find any mention of Chaitra etc. months in the Rig Veda and therefore it was a much later "combination".
Dikshit had advocated reforming the Hindu calendar more than a century back:
He has devoted a lot of time and attention in the same work to reforming the Hindu calendar. Dikshit has also quoted the authority of the then His Holiness Jagadguru Shankaracharya of Dwarka that we must celebrate all our festivals as per the tropical system and not nirayana since which is against all the dharmashastras! (Attachment Aadesh-Patra).
Same S B Dikshit has also clarified in his "Bharatiya Jyotish Shastra" that he had been publishing a sayana Panchanga for several years but had to discontinue it because people were hooked to nirayana panchangas!
(And that reminds me that I had to discontinue my own "Shri Krishen Universal Ephemeris and Panchang" which contained both tropical and "Lahiri" longitudes of planets apart from the correct dates of festivals besides their "almighty" Lahiri dates! I had to discontinue it after struggling for several years because "Vedic astrologers" and especially "Vedic Panchanga-makers" were caught on the wrong foot!
<Then in the footnotes he goes on to explain:'Madhu is "honey", "sweet spring". Madhava, "the sweet one". Sukra and Suchi both mean "bright". Nabhas, the rainy season. Nabhasya, "vapoury", "rainy". Ish or isha, •'draught"or "refreshment", "fertile". Urj, "strength", "vigour". Sahas, "strength". Sahasya, "strong". Tapas, "penance", "mortification", "pain", "fire". Tapasya, "produced by heat", "pain". All are Vedic words.'>
S B Dikshit has done a thorough analysis of Savayana-versus-nirayana! In fact, I consider him to be a pioneer for having initiated the Calendar Reform more than 120 years back, when there were not even electronic calculators, much less computers around though Munjal was the first Indian astronomer of tenth century who had advised to align the calculated "longitudes" with the real longitudes by adding one arc-minute per year from Shaka 444 to them!
Dikshit's stand will be clear from the attachment "SBD-advocated-sayana-calendar"---which are "reprints" of some of the pages from his "Bharatiya Jyotisha Shastra" explaining all the pros and cons of Sayana-versus-Nirayana! Kindly take time out to go through the same and let me have our views!
Besides, in my original mail to which you are replying I have attached as many as eight documents from various commentators/translators of the Sama Veda, Shata-Patha-Brahmana, Taittiriya Samhita apart from the Siddhantas and Puranas, which have equated, without exception, lunar Madhu with lunar Chaitra, Madhava with Vaishakha---both the months being of Spring season and so on.
An authority like Acharya Sayana or the commentators like Ranganatha or Sudhakar Dwivedi or astronomers like Bhaskaracharya etc. must certainly have been aware as to what they are/were doing and talking about regarding lunar Chaitra being synonymous with Madhu and so on!
It is not only the commentators of yore like Rangantha or Kamlakar etc. who have translated the Madhu Shuklaadi of the SS as Chaitra-Shuklaadi but even Prof. Ramchandra Pandey of BHU and Mahavir Prasad Shrivastav also have done the same thing in their commentaries.
<full moon day falls on 28th March, 2021. The nakshatra on that day is Phalguna/Hasta and not Chitra. And according to S B D in "The Indian Calendar," the month of the full moon in purva- & uttara-phalguna and Hasta is named Phalguna. >
Dr. B V Raman, the doyen among predictive astrologers would usually say, "Proof of pudding is in the eating"!
So let us have the "pudding" of the Gita-amrita, which has said in 8/23-24
अग्निर्ज्योतिरहः शुक्लः षण्मासा उत्तरायणम | तत्र प्रयाताः गच्छन्ति ब्रह्म ब्रह्मविदो जनाः ||
धूमो रात्रिस्तथा कृष्णः षण्मासा दक्षिणायनम् | तत्र चान्द्रमसं ज्योतिर्योगी प्राप्य निवर्त्यते ||
"(Of the two paths) the one is that in which are stationed the all-effulgent fire-god and the deities presiding over daylight, the bright fortnight, and the six months of the northward course of the sun respectively; proceeding along it after death, Yogis, who have known Brahma, being successively led by the above gods, finally reach Brahma.
"The other path is that wherein are stationed the gods presiding over smoke, night, and dark fortnight, and the six months of the southward curse of the sun, the Yogi (devoted to action with an interested motive) taking to this path after death is led by the above gods, one after another and attaining the lustre of the moon (and enjoying the fruit of his meritorious deeds in heaven) return to this mortal world" --Git Press translation
Here the six lunar months of two fortnights each of Shukla and Krishna Paksha have been clubbed by Bhagwan Krishna Himself with the two Ayanas viz. Dakshinayana and Uttarayana! Naturally, those months are Magha, Phalguna etc. and not solar Rashis Makara Kumbha etc., though lunar months follow solar months---New Moons following Samkrantis!
So obviously, Bhagwan Krishna wanted us to follow Madhu-Madhava as Chaitra-Vaishakha seasonal months!
Nakshatras vis-a-vis stars are a "square peg in a round hole":
I am attaching "CRC-nakshatras-stars" which has decimated the nirayana premise that nakshatra divisions are as star-groups as per their namesake stars! They are really a "square peg in a round hole" since more than 25% nakshatras are not aligned to the respective divisions, especially the much-maligned Chitra, which is away from Svati by less than half a degree whereas the distance between Dhanishtha and Shatabhishak is 25 degrees!
Dikshit also has said in the "papers" that I have attached with this mail that whether it is Sayana or Niraayana, nakshatras do not fit into the scheme of Chaira, Vaishakha months anywhere!
On page 307, Diskhit has said
Quote
Nakhsatras displaced even in Nirayana System---Even today we are leaving the stellar nakshatras. They are not all situated at equal distances. Hence the nirayana almanacs have been required to divide into 27 equal parts and call them nakshatras. Some of the nakshatra divisions include the Junction star of two nakshatras while there are others which include none"
Unquote
In fact the CRC also has come down heavily on this 27 equal nakshatra-division bogey, as will be clear from the attachment "CRC-nakshatras"
< Therefore, Phalguna month starts on March 14, 2021. So when does the actual month of Lunar Chaitra start? April 13th, 2021?>
Nirayana Panchanga-makers can make a new year---whether solar or lunar--- start as and when they like since there are at least half a dozen Ayanamshas in the fray, and depending on the "cherished" Ayanamsha of the Panchanga-maker, he/she can make it start on any day and any time but the worst catch that they have to face is the mantra of Adhika-masa in the Rigveda 1/25/8
वेद मासो धृतव्रतो द्वादश प्रजावतः | वेदा य उपजायते ||
I am attaching a Hindi commentary-cum translation of this mantra which has clearly mentioned that a solar new year starts on the day of Vernal Equinox which is also known as Sayana Mesha Samkranti and the (seasonal) lunar months are subsumed in the same. As and when there are two Amavasyas between two Samkrantis of sayana Mesha etc. Rashis, there is an adhika masa!
The earliest indigenous astronomical work of 15th century BCE, viz the Vedanga Jyotisha of Acharya Lagadha also has advocated an adhika lunar masa after every thirty months only and only with reference to seasonal years and months!
And Acharya Lagadha has also made it very clear that Uttarayana must always take place in the month of Magha and Dakshinayana in the month of Shravana!
No wonder Bishma Pitamaha also was waiting for Magha---related to seasons and not for "almighty" Lairi-nakshatra Magha!
Similarly, Dikshit has also made it absolutely clear that an adhika masa is only and only to keep the lunar months also in sync with the relevant seasons, as otherwise we may as well follow the Islamic calendar which is quite unrelated to seasons!
Lahiri Meshadi is meaningless and without any scriptural sanction:
Then again, about the start of the solar year from ''almighty" Lahiri Meshadi around April 15 every year, every nirayana panchanga-maker knows it that there is absolutely no "marker" either as a star or any solstitial or equinoctial point on that date, but then they are so afraid of losing their clientele that they are just making a song and dance story, which has been decimated by the CRC ---attachment "nirayana-adharma"!
So, respected Dr. Madhivanan, if in spite of all these pleadings and explanations, somebody wants to continue to follow Adharma, who am I to stop him or her!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
Avtar Krishen Kaul
From: Madhivanan <mad...@gmail.com>
Respected sir,
The Hindu calendar is a luni-solar calendar, which means both solar months and lunar months are calculated. As i understand, chaitra, vaishaka, jyestha, etc.. are lunar months, and they are named for the nakshatra during/end of the full moon thithi. The seasons are determined by the revolution of the earth around the sun and the earth's tilt (23.5 degrees, as of now), and therefore the seasons are solar (tropical).To clarify, seasons are linked to the tropical/solar calendar.But the lunar months are sidereal.Shri Bal gangadhar tilak in his book, "Orion or researches into the antiquity of the Vedas," writes in the 2nd chapter, "Sacrifice alias the year" thus:"The difference between the sidereal and the tropical year is 20.4 minutes, which causes the seasons to fall back nearly one lunar month in about every two thousand years, if the sidereal solar year be taken as the standard of measurement."According to "The Indian Calendar" authored by Robert Sewell and Sankara Balkrishna Dikshit in 1896, in Part one under the heading "The Hindu Calendar", article 41 titled "Lunar months and their names", S B D states thus:'The names "Madhu'" and others evidently refer to certain seasons and may be called season-names to distinguish them from " Chaitra " and those others which are derived from the nakshatras.'Then in the footnotes he goes on to explain:'Madhu is "honey", "sweet spring". Madhava, "the sweet one". Sukra and Suchi both mean "bright". Nabhas, the rainy season. Nabhasya, "vapoury", "rainy". Ish or isha, •'draught"or "refreshment", "fertile". Urj, "strength", "vigour". Sahas, "strength". Sahasya, "strong". Tapas, "penance", "mortification", "pain", "fire". Tapasya, "produced by heat", "pain". All are Vedic words.'So, if Madhu masa is linked to the seasons, then it cannot be equated with lunar months, because lunar months will keep drifting with respect to the seasons over the centuries as mentioned above. For example, if madhu masa (a particular season) happened in the month of Chaitra (obviously, lunar) 4000 years ago, it will happen in the month of Phalguna 2000 years ago, and in the month of Magha, in our times (now).So my first question is should we celebrate Vasantha navratri during the start of spring season (Madhu masa) or in the lunar month of Chaitra?If March 14, 2021 denotes the start of a lunar month, then it is obvious that Amanta system is followed for the lunar months.Interestingly, March 13 is a new moon day and the next full moon day falls on 28th March, 2021. The nakshatra on that day is Phalguna/Hasta and not Chitra. And according to S B D in "The Indian Calendar," the month of the full moon in purva- & uttara-phalguna and Hasta is named Phalguna. Therefore, Phalguna month starts on March 14, 2021. So when does the actual month of Lunar Chaitra start? April 13th, 2021?Regards,
Madhivanan.and only seasonal year comprising two Ayanas within which were subsumed solar seasonal and lunar seasonal months aligned to the same!
Madhivanan
maagho'yam samanupraapto maasah' punyo yudhisht'hira
|
tribhaagasheshah' paksho'yam shuklo bhavitumarhati ||28||
O Yudhishthira, the lunar month of Magha has come. This is, again, the lighted fortnight and a fourth part of it ought by this (according to my calculations) be over.' - K. M. Ganguly translation.
Gita press edition clarifies that it was shukla paksha, ashtami tithi, and Rohini nakhshatra. And surely it is after the onset of uttarayana (winter solstice).
Obvious implications of these observations
The lunar month of Magha. Magha is one of the 27 nakshatras; therefore, the lunar months are aligned to the nakshatras and are sidereal. They are not aligned to the seasons.
Ashtami tithi is the 8th tithi, and it is the waxing phase (shukla paksha) of the Moon. This implies that eight tithis back it was a new moon day.
If 3/4 of the lunar month remains, the lunar month should have started on a new moon day. Therefore, it shows that amanta system was used during Mahabharata.
The moon was in Rohini nakshatra on the 8th tithi. On the 15th tithi, 6 tithis later, the moon should have covered another 5 or 6 nakshatras. Therefore, the moon must be near Magha nakshatra on the full moon day. This forms the basis for the naming of the lunar month of Magha. The lunar month is named for the nakshatra that is near the full moon in the middle of that month.
Mahabharata war is widely believed to have occurred during 3140
BCE and Kali yuga started on 3102 BCE.
This can be tested using the planetarium softwares available today,
with the JPL
DE431
ephemerides that allows acceptably accurate computation of the skies from 13201
BCE
to 17191 CE. It is important to use this ephemerides because the computation cannot be accurate enough otherwise. This is not provided by default and therefore needs to be downloaded and enabled separately for Stellarium software.
An important point to note is that proleptic Gregorian calendar will be used for the dates. This just means that that the same Gregorian calendar that is used nowadays is extended backwards through time even before common era. Gregorian calendar is a solar calendar (tropical) and is aligned to the seasons. Therefore, if winter solstice occurs on 21/22 December in a year, this would be true even 5000 years back.
Also note that 1 BCE is followed by 1 CE without an intervening zero year. But some softwares do not follow this convention; 2 BCE would be represented as Year -1 in these softwares. Likewise, 3140 BCE would be represented as Year -3139.
Stellarium software
Using the latest version of Stellarium software (0.20.4) and the calendar plugin, when the skies are computed for the Gregorian year 3140 BCE, winter solstice occurs during the midnight of 18 December and the waxing phase of the moon. On 20 December, 3140 BCE, shukla ashtami, at 12 noon, the moon was very close to Rohini nakshatra (Aldebaran) as can be seen from the screen shot below.
To check whether the full moon of this lunar month occurs near Magha nakshatra, the sky on 20 December, 3140 BCE, when full moon tithi starts has been recreated below. The moon was near Magha nakshatra (Regulus) as can be seen below.
Summary
Tropical zodiac is the true zodiac. Period.
All I want to say is that lunar months are aligned to the nakshatras. I do not subscribe to the present definitions of the nakshatras as is known commonly today; I will be writing on it in the future. But there is no doubt about Krittika nakshatra (which is very obvious) and Rohini nakshatra which is next to it. And i have confirmed that Regulus is part of Magha nakshatra.
The lunar month of Magha was from 12 December, 3140 BCE to 11 January, 3139 BCE during Mahabharata.
The lunar month of Magha was from 13 February, 2021 CE to 12 March, 2021 as of now. The full moon was very close to Magha nakshatra on 26th February night as can be seen from the screenshot below. Please note that the uttarayana/winter solstice has not shifted from 20/21 December since Mahabharata.
We can see that the lunar month of Magha has shifted by two months since the time of Mahabharata.
If Vasantha navratha is to be celebrated, then it should be during the onset of spring, which is officially during March. Magha month starts on February 13th and this may represent Vasant ritu during our times.
My opinion is that Magha and Phalguna months may signify vasantha ritu as of now. Peak summer (Greshma ritu) is during April/May and May/June, officially, which corresponds to Chaitra and Vaishaka lunar months.
I would like to quote the following paragraph from wikipedia:
"
Galileo's championing of heliocentrism (Earth revolving around the sun) and Copernicanism
(Earth rotating around the sun) met with opposition from within the
Catholic Church and from some astronomers. The matter was investigated
by the Roman Inquisition in 1615, which concluded that heliocentrism was foolish, absurd, and heretical since it contradicted Holy Scripture."
Fortunately our scriptures do not contradict what is being observed now. Only the interpretations of those scriptures are against it. If those interpretations by commentators of that time of the shastras is final and not open to further inquiry, then we will be frozen in time. I repeat, I am not questioning our Hindu shastras, only their interpretations if they appear to go against dharma.
I have a lot more to write on this, but it will be very very long. I will discuss further another time.
Regards,
Madhivanan.
विश्वासो वासुकेयः
NamasteTropical or Sayana and Sidereal or Nirayana will get separated more and more with growing Ayanamsha.There is a choice we have to make. If we strictly follow the seasons in the future we will celebrate Rama Navami in wrong Nakshatras like Kruttika or Ashwini instead of Punarvasu. Krishna Janmashtami will be celebrated not in Rohini but in Uttara Bhadrapada or Dhanistha.If we strictly follow Nakshatras we will celebrate festivals in wrong seasons like Rama Navami in summer.Do we follow the seasons? Or do we follow the Nakshatras? What is more important?
विश्वासो वासुकेयः
विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)
On Friday, March 5, 2021 at 9:12:57 PM UTC+5:30 Venkatesh Murthy wrote:NamasteTropical or Sayana and Sidereal or Nirayana will get separated more and more with growing Ayanamsha.There is a choice we have to make. If we strictly follow the seasons in the future we will celebrate Rama Navami in wrong Nakshatras like Kruttika or Ashwini instead of Punarvasu. Krishna Janmashtami will be celebrated not in Rohini but in Uttara Bhadrapada or Dhanistha.If we strictly follow Nakshatras we will celebrate festivals in wrong seasons like Rama Navami in summer.Do we follow the seasons? Or do we follow the Nakshatras? What is more important?Case by case decision is best. One ought to go for the most meaningful and sentimentally appealing option.
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Vishvas /विश्वासः
A K Kaul
/ulb/swetest -b20.12.-3139-greg -n1 -s1 -fPLBRS -pp -ejpl date (dmy) 20.12.-3139 greg. 0:00:00 TT version 2.10 UT: 574916.580610033 delta t: 79435.293115 sec TT: 574917.500000000 Epsilon (t/m) 24° 1'52.5153 24° 2' 0.5453 Nutation -0° 0' 9.3748 -0° 0' 8.0300 Sun 270°18'27.1204 0° 0' 5.9439 0.994738961 0°59'45.7287 Moon 344° 2'46.7201 -1°50'43.5380 0.002703831 11°47'41.8805
On December 20, -3139 Greg. the moon was ahead of the sun by about 74 degrees which means it was Shukla Paksha Saptami and not even Ashtami! It can never be Magha Shukla paksha saptami because as per the Vedanga Jyotisham, the months of Tapas and Magha start on or after the Uttarayana and not before the same!Almost all the Puranas and siddhantas have clubbed Magha with Tapas, which starts from the day of Uttarayana.
The same is the case with Lahiri lunar Magha Shukla Paksha! It can never start before Lahiri Solar Magha i.e. Lahir Makara-cum-Uttarayana!
Thus you are putting the cart before the horse since it was seasonal Pausha Shukla Paksha Saptami and Magha Shukla Paksha would have started only after about 23 days!
So it could never be in 3140 BCE that Bhishma Pitamaha shed off his mortal coil! KALI ERA of 3012 BCE IS IMAGINARY! Kali era is imaginary-----I repeat IMAGINARY----(pl. see the attachment "Kali Era is Imaginary- CRC ---and any superstructure erected on the same is doubly so.
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Madhivanan
Respected shri AK Kaul,
It is with a worrying heart that I write this reply. With all due respect, it seems that you were in a hurry to summarily dismiss the evidence I placed before you rather than evaluating them with an open mind. The bedrock of scientific temper is reproducibility, but you just dismissed the points I put forward without even trying to reproduce them the way I did.
Let me discuss in detail your apprehensions one by one.
Bhishma nirvana<There is an insurmountable problem with your Bhishma Nirvana tithi explanation also!>
The swiss ephemeris test result you have displayed is factually incorrect. Kindly note that you have calculated the result for midnight UTC whereas I have calculated for noon local time, as it should be. I request you to rerun the test as I have indicated. I have attached the test result for noon local time below, nevertheless.
One can see that the Sun is ahead of the Moon by 87° and well into ashtami tithi. So there is no problem at all with my explanation, let alone insurmountable.
Let us not even discuss the various values of Δt when talking about dates in the distant past. I have rerun the simulation with those proposed by Henriksson (2017), with the recommended range of usage between 4000.0 BCE and 2000.0 CE, and my results hold good.
27 nakshatras
The very reason I posted those screenshots from the planetarium software is that one can easily visualize the skies with the stars as was observed by those during the times of Mahabharata.
Never once did I mention ‘tropical’ nakshatras in my reply. Sir, you should know that I follow tropical zodiac with sidereal nakshatras as you have quoted from that very article from my website.
<Then there is further difference with the namesake stars of those divisions, which you claim were being followed in ancient times! That really is making confusion worse confounded!>
<And that is one of the reasons why the "Reformed Hindu Panchanga" by Acharya Darshaneya Lokesh and Shri T V Sivaraman and Shri K M Rajan is/are indicating the actual timing of conjunction with the respective stars as the starting time of that nakshatra!>
I never once referred to namesake stars or whatever you mean by that or the Lahari nakshatra divisions. You then mention the "Reformed Hindu Panchanga" where the respective stars have been listed for the nakshatras. I have reproduced the relevant page you advocate from the "Reformed Hindu Panchanga" below. This calendar credits you for the data supplied in this page. So you should know what I was talking about when I mentioned Aldebaran and Regulus.
The common star name for Rohini is listed as Aldebaran and for Magha as Regulus in this table. So when I showed that the Moon was very close to Aldebaran on 20 December, -3139, I was not referring to any imaginary Lahiri nakshatras or their namesakes. I was referring to those very stars you have advocated in that calendar. The moon was in Rohini nakshatra on 20 December, 3140 BCE.
Vedanga jyothisa
It is Bhisma himself who was saying that the lunar month is Magha,
I did not!
When he did not mention Tapas why do we assume that he mentioned Tapas, Tapasya for the months. Sir, let us not assume anything and just discuss the facts as they stare at us. You have said that VJ mentions Tapas. Kindly quote the relevant slokas in devanagari script and in English; do also provide its English translation. Though I did learn basic Hindi during my school days, my knowledge of Hindi is elementary. I am comfortable in English, and I would request you to provide the English translations for all the slokas you quote.
Kindly state if VJ predates the time of Mahabharata. As we are sure that Mahabharata happened atleast 5000 years ago before the onset of Kali yuga, the astronomical descriptions in Mahabharata should be untainted by the corrupting influence of Kali. As you said, Kali yuga can be discussed later.
I am ready to discuss each and every evidence you place before me
with an open mind as I hope you too would; otherwise we would just be
wasting our time sticking to our intractable views and taking this
discussion nowhere.
When our rishis conceive an idea, they do it based on universal truths and not on any scriptures. Saptarishis are said to have learnt from Lord Shiva himself! They are spiritually much evolved than us, so that they can perceive universal truths that we cannot, using our earthly senses. It is not that such evolved beings are not present in our age; even if sage Agasthya were to voice his opinion now, we would just discard it as not conforming to our interpretation of our shastras.
I would again request you to take an objective look at the points I discussed in my earlier mail and discuss the evidence one point at a time. We shall first discuss about Bhisma Nirvana before discussing other points.
If the object of our discussion in this forum is to seek out the truth
of our Hindu dharma, we should approach it with an open mind as per
the saying, “One can’t fill a cup that is already full,” rather
than just parading our immutable views for the world to behold. Sir,
please evaluate the evidence I have placed before you without
dismissing them outright.
I am also willing to discuss them privately through email as it takes as long as a day to get the response posted in the forum.
Regards,
Madhivanan.
A K Kaul
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A K Kaul
Respected Dr. Madhivanan,
Jai Shri Ram!
My first apology for having misspelled your name as "Madhuvanan" instead of Madhivanan!
And second apology for such a long delay in replying to your very informative and interesting mail!
<The swiss ephemeris test result you have displayed is factually incorrect. Kindly note that you have calculated the result for midnight UTC whereas I have calculated for noon local time, as it should be. I request you to rerun the test as I have indicated. I have attached the test result for noon local time below, nevertheless.>
In your earlier mail you had said
Quote
Mahabharata war is widely believed to have occurred during 3140 BCE and Kaliyuga supposed to have started on 3102 BCE. This can be tested using the planetarium softwares available today, with the JPL DE431 ephemerides that allows acceptably accurate computation of the skies from 13201 BCE to 17191 CE. It is important to use this ephemerides because the computation cannot be accurate enough otherwise. This is not provided by default and therefore needs to be downloaded and enabled separately for Stellarium software.
Unquote
Before we try to find out whether Bharatavarsha used UTC or TT or LMT or any other time-scale in 3140 BCE, and since all our scriptures without exception (including the Mahabharata!) claim that the Mahabharata war took place "during the sandhi period of Dwapara and Kaliyuga" the first and foremost thing we have to find out is the date and duration of Kaliyuga---कलि द्वापर सन्धिः! Then and then only we can go about finding Bhishma Nirvana tithi etc.
And as already clarified in my several mails, as on date there is neither any astronomical nor any historical proof as to when Dwapara-Yuga ended and Kali-yuga started!
We are groping in the dark for the same!
So we do not really know the exact date of the Mahabharata war, whatever our claims!
Did Kaliyuga start in 1431/1531 BCE?
There is however a ray of light from the Vishnupurana and Srimad Bhagavata that Kaliyuga had started either in 1531 or 1631 BCE (attachment Pauranic Kaliyuga) and I request all the scholars with folded hands to try to resolve this issue before jumping to the dates of the Mahabharata war or Rama Ravana Yuddha!
Now coming to UTC vis-a-vis TT (or is it UTC versus TT!)
It is no secret about ET, the earlier ''Avatar" of TT
Quote
"Ephemeris time (ET), adopted as standard in 1952, was originally designed as an approach to a uniform time scale, to be freed from the effects of irregularity in the rotation of the earth, "for the convenience of astronomers and other scientists", for example for use in ephemerides of the Sun (as observed from the Earth), the Moon, and the planets. It was proposed in 1948 by G M Clemence.[7]" which means that nobody had any idea as to whether the ''UTC"---GMT and then UT in its earlier ''Avatar"----was having ''wobbles".
I am also constrained to put on record here my agony that the Surya Siddhanta that my ancestors including my grandfather and father and even I myself worshipped for several decades as a ''divine work" talks of “Lanka Time” which is actually Ujjain Mean Time when the SS (nay even Aryabhatiya!) Kaliyuga is supposed to have started as per Ujjain LMT---either mid-night or “mean sunrise”!
So how on earth would somebody have calculated planetary, especially the lunar longitudes vis-à-vis solar longitudes to determine “Shukla Ashtami tithi” , that also not even mean or true but “apparent!” in 3140 BCE using the latest DE314 ephemeris!
Then again, how did that same “somebody” determine the exact longitude of “Rohini” Aldebaran 3 in that hoary past to check the time of exact conjunction of the moon with the same that too at apparent noon!
SS claims about "tapasya" cannot be factual
If you want me to believe that all such things were “observed” by our "seers" through Tapasya, well, my hats off to them, but I am very reluctant to accept that argument since we have already paid a very very heavy price for believing the SS claims that all its planetary details etc. etc. were obtained by Maya Mahasura through Tapasya from none other than “Surya Bhagwan Himself”.
Fools rush where angels fear to tread!
Maya Mahasura has given orbital elements of planets, their nodes and apogees of the moon etc. for a Mahayuga of 4320000 years---and then advised to calculate true longitudes through them for the whole "kalpa" of 4320000000 years!!
Only fools can make such statements, and I am sure the so-called "Maya Mahasura" was no fool!
Even the JPL/NASA have, after all the satellite and other data, collected over several centuries, not been able to give planetary details in their latest DE431 for more than about 30500 years, i.e. less than 150th part of a Kalpa of the SS!
Obviously, somebody has taken the entire Hindu community for a ride in the name of Maya Mahasura and his "divine work"!
Aryabhata, Brahmagupta, Bhaskaracharya and even Pathani Samant have fallen hook line and sinker into this trap of the cunning "Maya Mahasura" since all of them have shown the audacity of calculating planets over a period of 432000000 years!
My God! Were they astronomers or some conjurers!
We should avoid using the real Vamadevas in conjecture vis-a-vis physical sciences!
<When our rishis conceive an idea, they do it based on universal truths and not on any scriptures. Saptarishis are said to have learnt from Lord Shiva himself! They are spiritually much evolved than us, so that they can perceive universal truths that we cannot, using our earthly senses. It is not that such evolved beings are not present in our age; even if sage Agasthya were to voice his opinion now, we would just discard it as not conforming to our interpretation of our shastras.>
There were no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in India till about the first century BCE at the earliest. As such, if some "Saptarshis" have really compiled some "horoscopes" they are after the Surya Siddhanta since no other astronomical work has given the methodology of calculating planetary longitudes vis-a-vis Mesha etc. Rashis prior to that work. Besides, Varahamihira is silent about any Saptarshi horoscopes though he has talked about a Saptarshi era in his Brihat Samhita!
Thus it is clear that Saptarshi horoscopes were not around till about eleventh century at least!
Bhishma Nirvana Magha-Shukla-Ashtami-vis-a-vis-Rohini Nakshatra
Then again, Bhishma Pitamaha is supposed to have shed his mortal coil at “noon” of Shukla-Ashtami, which means the exact longitudes of the sun or the moon could not even be “observed” at mid-day because of the sun-light! Then again, the time of exact conjunction of the moon with “Rohini” ----that also at noon during day time, could not be “observed” since neither would “Aldebaran” be “observed” ---that too with naked eyes!----nor the moon!
Thus the net conclusion of this discussion up to this point is that neither could the lunar conjunction of Shukla-paksha Ashtami with Rohini be calculated in 3140 BCE nor could it be “observed”. We have thus to find some other way if we stick to 3140 BCE!
All said and done, your logic, arguments and homework were so sincere that I had to ponder on this problem of seasonal Magha Shukla Ashtami and Rohini nakshatra vis-a-vis Purnimanta Moon in Magha in such a hoary past since whereas"Aldebaran" and "Regulus" are subject to precession the seasonal Magha, whether lunar or solar, is not! So how could the two coincide more than 5000 years back!
And the jigsaw puzzle got solved only , thanks to "almighty" Lahiri Chaitra-Shukla-Pratipad vis-a-vis "almighty" Lahiri Mesha Samkranti of the the current year i.e., 2021!
As is common knowledge by now, the "almighty" Lahiri Chaitra-Shukladi i.e. the "Lahiri-lunar-new-year" New Moon was on April 12, 2021 at 8-00 am and lasted up to 10-17 am of April 13. Thus the Lahiri "Navratras" started from the sunrise of April 13, 2021.
And the same day, i.e. April 13, 2021, there was "almighty" Lahiri Mesha Samkranti at 26-33 i.e. 2-33 am of April 14, 2021. ( attachment Mesha-Vaishakha-Samkranti)
And "almighty" Lahiri Chaitra Shukla Purnima is on April 27, 2021 at 9-00 am. The lunar (Lahiri) longitude at that moment is (tropical longitude being 217°6' minu 24 =) about 193 (attachment Chaitra-Shukla-Purnima).
The tropical longitude of Chitra star on that date is 204° 8' which means Purnimanta Moon is ahead of Chitra star by more than 13 degrees
Nirayana Lahiri Chitra division ranges from 173° 20' to 186° 40', which means the Lahiri Purnimanta moon being 193° will be ahead by more than six degrees from the end of Lahiri Chitra division---in fact it will be in Svati division!
So technically speaking, it was not a sidereal Chaitra at all but the whole of India celebrated Chaitri Navrtra on that date, under the impression that it was "sidereal Chaitra"!
which means the Winter Solstice, the Uttarayana for which Bhishma was waiting for, which is another name of solar Tapas/Magha started only on December 20, 3140 BCE, and therefore the Shukla Ashtami that you are talking of on the same date is not Magha Shukla Ashtami, because lunar Magha Shukla Paksha would start only with the new moon i.e. Amanta after that date which was on January 12, 3139 BCE (Gregorian).
Vedanga Jyotisha vis-à-vis modern astronomy!
<Kindly state if VJ predates the time of Mahabharata. As we are sure that Mahabharata happened at least 5000 years ago before the onset of Kali yuga, the astronomical descriptions in Mahabharata should be untainted by the corrupting influence of Kali. As you said, Kali yuga can be discussed later.>
That is exactly the problem! The Vedanga Jyotisha is without any doubt a work of about 1500 BCE. And it just talks of soli-lunar phenomena like Tithi, nakshatra, Paksha, Maasa, Ritu, Ayana, Varsha and Yuga! There is absolutely no mention of any other planet, including the much dreaded Mangal and Shani---much less the “Kalasarpa-dosha-Karaka” Rahu!
To crown it all the VJ talks of mean longitudes of the sun and the moon---not even true, much less apparent!
And those mean longitudes are far from being accurate vis-à-vis even Brown’s Lunar Theorey, leave alone DE431.
Why did Acharya Lagadha do so? Did he deliberately give wrong “mean orbital elements of the sun and the moon” when as per your claims, even in 3140 BCE, i.e. 1600 years before him, we had top notch astronomers of the world on our roll who could calculate the nearest second of the conjunction of the Shukla Ashtami mid-day moon with Aldebaran?
Well, the fact of the matter is that the astronomical parameters the world over----not only in India!---had not progressed to such an extent about 3500 years back, as is clear from other astronomical works of “15th century BCE” the world over!
I am also willing to discuss them privately through email as it takes as long as a day to get the response posted in the forum.>
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