Chronology of Language Evolution
keyur joshi
Chronology
Stage-1 of Language
Start Date: not before 28 lakh years ago (emergence of Homo) and not later than 1 lakh years ago (emergence or Sarasvati + extinction of other Homo species)
End date: Not before 10 lakh years ago (domestication of fire) and not after 5000 years ago (3000 BC -0 Sarasvati drying starts)
1. Communicating dominance and submission – basically to avoid a real fight evolved. Decedents of these grunts are mythicised as ऋ and ल्र of संस्कृत. These are memories of pre-homo sapience species that used sound communications to convey dominance. You can move on ऋ-ल्र dimension with the use of क – hand/ hand held.
2. The ability to distinguish various वर्ण (beyond ऋ-ल्र) emerged and each वर्ण got associated with its meanings. Not all वर्ण emerged in one go. But eventually all 47 वर्ण emerged.
3. वर्ण teaching started. शिव सूत्र and वर्ण माला that emerged later are only surviving सूत्र of this kind. शिव सूत्र are operational classification. वर्ण माला is phonetic guide and product of later period. (post संयुक्त वर्ण era)
4. Other सूत्र start emerging. These teach disciplines other than वाक
5. संयुक्त वर्ण emerged
6. धातु emerges
7. Use of स्वर to indicate language market emerges. This is an abstraction of its earliest meanings.
8. सूत्र are compiled in सूत्र पाठ. In this era, These texts were understood in their procedural meaning also.
9. Anatomy of species changes resulting in some वर्ण being difficult to pronounce and/or comprehend. शिक्षा is added to education materials. The only शिक्षा we have access to is from Panini.
10. Songs that we refer to as छंद, आम्नाय, श्रुति, ब्राम्हण, निगम, संहिता is getting composed. It is not compiled as one set. That happens later with व्यास. These texts are considered sacred and are preserved but not altered. Because these are procedures (देवता) that are known to produce the desired outcome (called देव) when followed correctly and fail to produce a result when not followed exactly. In this era, they are understood also. Later they are called spoken instructions (वेद)
कर्ता कर्म करण are interchangeable. कर्म means ईप्सितमं and not object.
काल is understood but not incorporated in the language. चतुर्थी पंचमी सप्तमी विभक्ति are understood. षष्ठी has not evolved fully and is expressed by चतुर्थी
सूत्र पाठ itself is expressed in Stage-2 Language, its contents originally are formed in stage-1 era of language. Thru सूत्रपाठ and धातुपाठ we are able to peek into this era. More work is needed before we can decipher what is now called वेद.
Stage 2 of language
Start date: Not before 10 lakh years ago (domestication of fire) and not after 5000 years ago (3000 BC -0 Sarasvati drying starts)
End date: not after 4000 years ago (2000 BCE – Sarasvati dries)
11. (डु)कृञ् revolution happens.
12. संज्ञा revolution happens
13. काल gets incorporated in the language, mainly for agricultural purposes
14. .विभक्ति evolve in to कर्ता, कर्म (yet as ईप्सितमं), करण, संप्रदान (receive joint), अपादान (detaching joint), षष्टि (continued joint), आधी-करण and सम्बोधन.
15. धातु-प्रत्यय mechanism evolves and language detaches itself from physical symbolism and becomes abstract communication
16. वर्ण-धातु-पद-प्रतिपादिक-शब्द-वाक्य process evolves. वर्ण-धातु conversion process gets lost and all धातु become संज्ञा-fied. Original meaning of धातु and सूत्र as material process is forgotten.
17. Efforts are made to preserve meanings of पद-शब्द arising from root meanings of वर्ण. निघंटु निरुक्त.
18. The drying of Sarasvati beings.
19. व्यास-ification of what we now call वेद starts. Mass migration out of Sarasvati valley starts.
Regads
Keyur Joshi
9925031711
Damodara Chaitanya Das
What an imagination?
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Rajesh Verma
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keyur joshi
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keyur joshi
Damodara Chaitanya Das
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keyur joshi
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Rakesh Joshi
Vedas are apaurusheya, meaning never created by anyone. Everyone has defects namely: he commits mistakes, is illusioned, has imperfect senses and has a propensity to cheat. Hence any human creation will be defective. Sages have always identified Vedas as apaurusheya, not created by anyone and hence free from defects. They are eternal for this reason. Previous to this formation of the world, when there was another world, Vedas were guiding the people there also.
Sanskrit being the language of the Vedas is also eternal.
It is called Devanagari because it is spoken in the cities of the Devas (Gods).
Regards,
Rakesh Joshi
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Mayuresh Kathe
Also consider the fact that most people cannot access the Vedas directly, and hence have to read material, which has a high probability of being corrupted editions (since written-down by men/women).
Also, your comment on Devanagari being a language of Gods does ring true.
There is a lore which states that Devanagari was crafted by Lord Ganesha, who has a tendency to mischievously leave behind clues of his involvement.
In the case of the Devanagari alphabet, you'd notice that there are only 3 dis-jointed letters; ग ण श. :-)
Best regards,
~Mayuresh
________________________________________
From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Rakesh Joshi <rakesh...@gmail.com>
Sent: 06 April 2025 06:41 AM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Chronology of Language Evolution
Vedas are apaurusheya, meaning never created by anyone. Everyone has defects namely: he commits mistakes, is illusioned, has imperfect senses and has a propensity to cheat. Hence any human creation will be defective. Sages have always identified Vedas as apaurusheya, not created by anyone and hence free from defects. They are eternal for this reason. Previous to this formation of the world, when there was another world, Vedas were guiding the people there also.
Sanskrit being the language of the Vedas is also eternal.
It is called Devanagari because it is spoken in the cities of the Devas (Gods).
Regards,
Rakesh Joshi
On Sat, 5 Apr, 2025, 4:25 pm Damodara Chaitanya Das, <dcdas...@gmail.com<mailto:dcdas...@gmail.com>> wrote:
I am still surprised...
Why indian scholars need darwinian theory of evolution or any such theory to explain Samskrita?
Why don't they accept already written in the samskrita scriptures?
In Indian tradition, Sanskrit is considered to be a divine language, created by God (Brahma) and gifted to the Rishis (sages) for communication between humanity and the divine, with no beginning or end, and is considered eternal
Jiva goswami
नादशक्तिसमुत्पन्ना वर्णा भान्ति यथार्चिषः।
तेषां मूलं परं ब्रह्म श्रीकृष्णाख्यं निरूप्यते॥
"The letters arise from the power of nāda (sound) and śakti (spiritual potency), just as flames emerge from fire.
Their original root is the Supreme Brahman, known as Śrī Krishna."
----
नारायणाद उद्भूतो अयं वर्ण-क्रमः नारायणात् -
वर्णों की यह श्रृंखला (संस्कृत वर्णमाला) नारायण से प्रकट हुई
Hare Krishna
Dr. Damodara Chaitanya Das
On Sat, 5 Apr 2025, 11:10 am keyur joshi, <keyu...@gmail.com<mailto:keyu...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Namaskar
Please refer to the analysis of the names of लकार<https://keyurhjoshi.wordpress.com/2025/04/04/%E0%A4%95%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%B2-%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%B0%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%9A%E0%A4%AF/>.
Regards
Keyur Joshi
9925031711
Regards
Keyur Joshii
9925031711
What an imagination?
Sharing for views -
Chronology
Stage-1 of Language
6. धातु emerges
Stage 2 of language
Regads
Keyur Joshi
9925031711
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Rakesh Joshi
Namaskara.
There are a couple of issues with that.
If man made ideas are alone accepted, then there will be no standard for morality and ethics, as every person is defective and so the standards that he frames will also be selfishly motivated. Since Vedas have no author, that problem doesn't exist and it can very well be a standard for all.
Secondly Vedas are famously accepted since time immemorial as apaurusheya (one without an author).
To prove Darwinism right, one must find out who the author of Vedas is and scientefically establish that such an author existed and wrote the Vedas.
In their absence, evolution etc just become fairytales without any scientific basis.
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लोकेश
लोकेश
एकं संशोधनम् - invocations इति स्थाने innovations भवितव्यम्।
keyur joshi
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keyur joshi
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keyur joshi
प्रत्याङ्भ्यां श्रुवः न सन् आत्मनेपद
श superior outward wave, limb in water inside float, ङ्भ्यां outside fishing weir post becomes inside
NOT gather pull (collect) untill float inside pull connects outside, limb/leg roll
Don’t collect until water receeds away from superior weir posts श
Stone tools evolved first. That era affected धातु formation and later with active teaching प्रत्याहार came to exist. These unbeknownst to species, was more powerfull tool than stone tools. प्रत्याहार usage resulted in selective hyperplasia and caused संज्ञा revolution c. 2-3 mya.
This predates सन्.
सन् evolved with H Erectus. From fishing weir (सन्) evolved सुप् – concepts of संप्रदान(inside furrow leg in water roll pull – inward tide filling weir) अपादान (here leg till roll till pull – originally referring to ebb) अधि-करण (here carry inward hand held flow push – basket in which fish was gathered) – concepts of from, to and at/into.
Thus some of सुप् evolved before तिङ्, because Fishing weir came to exist before any form of launching or docking of raft. तिङ् is all about raft craft. So is युष्मद अस्मद्.
It is most likely that काल (लकार) evolved before तिङ्. Possibly in caves near shores where fire was maintained to measure time to find out when would be next tide.
Interesting to note लकार literally means sand hand held until water (arrives in weir). When the same concept was used only to measure time irrespective of tide, it was called काल – hand held until sand (lasts.) Both presume and at times uses ट – some form of curved bowl/basket.
From this point on, संस्कृत – made in सन्, became a force to reckon with.
#Erectus had become species with language.
हर हर महादेव शिव
Bijoy Misra
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Bijoy Misra
Unfortunately most of these so called 'rigorous efforts' completely overlook the fact that the yuga cycles of Puranic history go for billions of years. So to hypothesize a language evolution over lakhs of years is actually consistent in that sense.In fact, the so-called mainstream 'rigorous and scientific' lingusitics is also unscientific and rudimentary because it works at the level of words. But words are not the central aspect of Sanskrit language vayakarana is. At least this gentleman got this aspect right to think about evolution of Sanskrit grammar instead of Sanskrit words.Also you can actually use various ordering Paninian sutras to derive even words of non-sanskrit langauges of unknown origins and yet this aspect of linguistic evolution remains unexplored. So-called 'scientific and rigorous' methodology that heavily rely on western-set precedence with little faith in the full Paninian lingusitics is only disservice to our traditions. And to dismiss new imaginative efforts as useless is even worse.
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Bijoy Misra
I think being a physicist myself I know this better than all over here but I am an indian as well I am fully aware of the intellectual shortcuts and dubiously mixed methodologies the so-called academics undertake when it comes to Hindu scriptures which causes such disservice to them and their content.
Bijoy Misra
I don't understand the question. Are you implying that the current knowledge that is available in the Hindu corpus lacks continuity and we have to put in additional effort to establish its continuity?Well, this question is easily answered by Lord Krishna in BG 4.1-4.3इमं विवस्वते योगं प्रोक्तवानहमव्ययम् ।विवस्वान्मनवे प्राह मनुरिक्ष्वाकवेऽब्रवीत् ॥ १ ॥एवं परम्पराप्राप्तमिमं राजर्षयो विदुः ।स कालेनेह महता योगे नष्टः परन्तप ॥ २ ॥स एवायं मया तेऽद्य योगः प्रोक्तः पुरातनः ।भक्तोऽसि मे सखा चेति रहस्यं ह्येतदुत्तमम् ॥ ३ ॥The knowledge is always continuous and any breach in its continuity is fixed by God Himself. And I don't understand this restriction to the vedas as the vedas with the Puranas and itihasas are all legitimate texts for any discussion related to Hindu metaphysics.
Abhishek Mehta
Unfortunately most of these so called 'rigorous efforts' completely overlook the fact that the yuga cycles of Puranic history go for billions of years. So to hypothesize a language evolution over lakhs of years is actually consistent in that sense.
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