punarjanma concept in the vedas.

[Krishna Kashyap]

Namaste,

Sorry to bring this controversial topic to this group.

I wanted to get various views on this topic.  If someone has addressed this already, please let me know.

Some opponents of Vedas state that - 

"The concept of punarjanma is never mentioned in the vedas. Hence, Vedas agree with rest of the semitic religions (such as Christianity and Islam)in this aspect that there is one life only till the judgement day. After the judgement day there may be sort of a rebirth, to facilitate extreme punishment to hardcore criminals, by giving them new skins and torture them again. 

However, Some Hindu scholars using smrtis somehow invented the concept of the 'cycle of birth and death', which is foreign to the Vedas!  Further, the Bhagavadgita does not represent Vedas correctly, since it was told by Sage vyAsa and may have additional authors who may have added stuff to suit their views"

Has anyone looked into this issue? Please guide.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

[K S Kannan]

Repeated deaths should imply repeated births.

Cf.मृत्योस् स मृत्युम् आप्नोति...

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​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

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Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[shankara]

Krishna ji,

Jagannatha Sastri Saraswat has written a commentary on the Bhagavad Gita based on the Vedas. In his commentary on BG 2.21, Vaasaamsi Jiirnaani..., he quotes a number of Rgveda mantras in support of punarjanma.

Title of the book is 'Bhagavad Gita Aur Veda Gita'. It also contains a critical introduction of nearly 250 pages by Gangeshwaranandaji Maharaj.

Its copies can be obtained from http://gurugangeshwaranandjimaharaj.org/?sermon=rebuilding-the-walls

regards
shankara

[shankara]

Namaste,

It is not BG 2.21, but 2.22.

regards
shankara

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[Sundareswaran N.K]

The Taittiriya Aranyaka has a passage in which sage Bharadvaja is said to have continued Brahmacarya for three जन्म s. At the end of the third birth, when Bharadvaja was very old and weak, Indra approached him and asked, 'If I give you another birth, what you would do with that?'. "I would definitely continue my Vedic studies confining to Brahmacarya" was Bharadva's firm answer. See the passage:

nks

On Tue, Sep 17, 2019, 3:13 PM Dr ramanath <rnpm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Professor,
Namaste
the term punarjanm- is not mentioned in vedas . There are many terms
which have not mentioned in vedas like Isvara, punarjanma and many
other. However, punarjanm concept is indirectly mentioned. In
Kathopanisad and also in other upanisada. A wavering answer comes
forth in the Katha Upanishad to this great question. A complete,
satisfying answer can be found in certain other Upanishads, such as
the Chhandogya and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishads. Tentatively Yama
tells Nachiketas that when the body is shed, one takes rebirth. One
can become anything according to the thoughts and the feelings
entertained by the person during the tenure of this life. If there is
even a single desire, rebirth is unavoidable for the fulfillment of
that desire. If we have fulfilled all our desires in this birth itself
and nothing more is left, that would be good for us. All our desires
melt here itself in the light of the Self. No desire can stand before
the blaze of the knowledge of the Self. As the cloud of mist cannot
stand before the blaze of the sun, this muddle of the cloud of desires
cannot stand before the light of the Self, which is the Atman.
With regards
Ramanath

> *Best Regards,*
>
> *Krishna Kashyap*

>
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[Ramanath pandey]

Dear Professor,
Namaste
the term punarjanm- is not mentioned in vedas . There are many terms
which have not mentioned in vedas like Isvara, punarjanma and many
other. However, punarjanm concept is indirectly mentioned. In
Kathopanisad and also in other upanisada. A wavering answer comes
forth in the Katha Upanishad to this great question. A complete,
satisfying answer can be found in certain other Upanishads, such as
the Chhandogya and the Brihadaranyaka Upanishads. Tentatively Yama
tells Nachiketas that when the body is shed, one takes rebirth. One
can become anything according to the thoughts and the feelings
entertained by the person during the tenure of this life. If there is
even a single desire, rebirth is unavoidable for the fulfillment of
that desire. If we have fulfilled all our desires in this birth itself
and nothing more is left, that would be good for us. All our desires
melt here itself in the light of the Self. No desire can stand before
the blaze of the knowledge of the Self. As the cloud of mist cannot
stand before the blaze of the sun, this muddle of the cloud of desires
cannot stand before the light of the Self, which is the Atman.
With regards
Ramanath

Best Regards,

Ramanath

[K S Kannan]

Beautiful passage.

famous, but had just forgotten.

many thanks for providing this.

(Reminded of a similar passage in the MahAbhAs"ya,

with Indra, however, as the student

reg the inexhaustible pratipada-pATha etc.)

Also Cf. ऋषयोऽपि पदार्थानाम् नान्तम् यान्ति पृथक्त्वतः etc.

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[K S Kannan]

The context of

अनन्ता वै वेदाः

[Nagaraj Paturi]

There is the following well researched article on the topic by 

Joanna Jurewicz

https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

   :

https://www.academia.edu/8179799/Rebirth_eschatology_in_the_Rgveda._In_search_for_roots_of_transmigration  

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

There is the following well researched article on the topic by 

Joanna Jurewicz

https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

   :

https://www.academia.edu/8179799/Rebirth_eschatology_in_the_Rgveda._In_search_for_roots_of_transmigration  

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[Shashi Joshi]

It would not be three births, but 3 parts of his life. That is 3/4th of his life devoted to studying/learning. And yet not finished, so vast are the deep meanings of veda. Indira offers him extra another quarter of his lifespan. Please see the commentary below (in the image itself) explaining.

Thanks,
Shashi

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[K S Kannan]

AyurbhiH explained as Ayus'o'ms'aiH

does not look like a very faithful/happy explanation.

The adhyAhAra must have a semantic/logical basis.

Has it been provided?

And preferably any parallel/corroboration elsewhere for this?

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[Shashi Joshi]

Doesn't āyus mean life(span)?

Surely it doesn't mean birth, does it?

Thanks,
Shashi

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[K S Kannan]

Yes, Ayus is life-span.

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[R Balagopal]

Namaste,

If we are looking from the 'pAramARthika satta' both are accepted, one birth or many birth etc. Once we study 'MAndUkya Upanishad', GaudapAdAchArya's 'kArika' and their 'Shankara Bhaashyam' one will miserably fail to establish one is born at all !

Regards

Balagopal

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BALAGOPAL
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[Aurobind Padiyath]

There's a whole chapter in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad as dialogue between King Janaka and Sage Yagnavalkya detailing the two paths of the soul and the path of return back to creation of various beings. Such detailed explanation is in itself unparalleled.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Rigveda Mandal 10, Sookt 59, Mantras 6-7

असुनीते पुनरस्मासु चक्षुः पुनः पराणमिह नो धेहिभोगम |
जयोक पश्येम सूर्यमुच्चरन्तमनुमते मर्ळया नह्स्वस्ति ||
पुनर्नो असुं पर्थिवी ददातु पुनर्द्यौर्देवी पुनरन्तरिक्षम |
पुनर्नः सोमस्तन्वं ददातु पुनः पूषापथ्यां या सवस्तिः ||

English rendering of Swami’s translation by Arya Samaj

“O God! Thou conductest our pranas. We pray Thee that we may be happy whenever we may assume another body after death. Grant us, O God! The eyes and all the other senses, the pranas and the inner senses in our future birth when we may assume another body after forsaking the present. Do Thou grant us that when we are born again we may enjoy uninterruptedly all enjoyable thins. May we be able to see the luminous sun and the ingoing and outgoing pranas in all our rebirths. O God! Thou art the dispenser of honor and happiness, make us happy in all our rebirths, through Thy grace.”
“Be gracious, O Lord! To grant that in our rebirths the earth may give us prana born of food and strength, the bright light of the sun may give us prana and middle region may give us life; the juices of medicines such as soma, may give us body (bodily health and vigor). O God! Thou art the giver of strength and nourishment, show us in our rebirths the path of virtue (dharma). We pray that happiness be our lit in all our births through Thy grace.”

[Rigvedadi Bhashya Bhumika, Part 4, English Version; An Introduction to the Vedas; Translated by Ghasi Ram M.A. L.L.B.]

Yajurveda chapter 4, Mantra 15.

English rendering of Swami’s translation by Arya Samaj

“O God! May the mind with knowledge and other good qualities an may the full term of life come to us in our rebirth, through Thy favor. May pure thoughts come to us in our rebirth and may sight and hearing also come to us. O God! Thou art the guide and director of the universe; in Thee there is no fault such as arrogance, deceit; thou are the protector of our bodies, and art all wisdom and bliss; keep us aloof from evil deeds and protect us in all our birth-cycles, so that being free from sin we may remain happy in all our births.”

[Rigvedadi Bhashya Bhumika, Part 4, English Version; An Introduction to the Vedas; Translated by Ghasi Ram M.A. L.L.B.]

Atharvaveda 7/67/1.

English rendering of Swami’s translation by Arya Samaj

    “O Lord! May we get, through Thy favor in our rebirths all the senses and that force which sustains the pranas. may we be endowed with the noble riches of knowledge and have firm devotion to Thee. May we get human bodies so that we may be able to tend the fires, Ahavaniya, etc. O Lord of the Universe! May we have the same form, intellect and good bodies as we were endowed with in our previous birth so that we may be able with the help of intellect to discharge our duties properly in the world of our rebirth and may we never suffer pain on any account.”

[Rigvedadi Bhashya Bhumika, Part 4, English Version; An Introduction to the Vedas; Translated by Ghasi Ram M.A. L.L.B.]

Atharvaveda 5/1/2 in the hope of establishing reincarnation.

English rendering of Swami’s translation by Arya Samaj

“A man who, has done good actions in his previous birth, gets many good bodies in virtue of those good actions, but if he has done evil deeds he does not get human body and is born into the body of an animal, etc., and suffers pain.”

[Rigvedadi Bhashya Bhumika, Part 4, English Version; An Introduction to the Vedas; Translated by Ghasi Ram M.A. L.L.B.]

Yajurveda Adhyaai 19, Mantra 47.

English rendering of Swami’s translation by Arya Samaj

“We have heard that there are two paths in this world for enjoying the good and suffering the bad consequences of virtue and vice. The first is the path trodden by the pitris (the wise) and the devas (the learned) and such men as are devoid of knowledge and wisdom. The first is divided two fold i.e., the pirtriyana and the Devayana. That in which a jiva obtaining a body from the father and mother enjoys happiness as the fruit of its good actions and suffers pain as the consequences of its evil and deeds and again and again, i.e., in which it is subject to past and future birth is called the pitriyana. That in which it obtains emancipation, is liberated from the world i.e., the migrations of birth and death is called devayana. In the former, after having enjoyed the fruits of its stock of virtue it is born again and dies also. In the latter, it is not born again, nor does it die. By these two paths the whole world passes and repasses.”

[Rigvedadi Bhashya Bhumika, Part 4, English Version; An Introduction to the Vedas; Translated by Ghasi Ram M.A. L.L.B.]

On Wed, Sep 18, 2019 at 10:07 AM Aurobind Padiyath <aurobind...@gmail.com> wrote:

There's a whole chapter in Brhadaranyaka Upanishad as dialogue between King Janaka and Sage Yagnavalkya detailing the two paths of the soul and the path of return back to creation of various beings. Such detailed explanation is in itself unparalleled.

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

What is reborn?  The body or the संस्कार?

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Aurobind Padiyath]

The body one destroyed is not available for any action. Sanskar is not a object(वस्तु) to be reborn. 

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[Ravindranath B S]

Thank you very much Paturiji for sharing these mantras with English translation, the punarjanma is explained very clearly if it is understood the way it is described it will be fantastic.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I must have mentioned that that is a distinct Swami Dayananda Saraswati's, and thus Arya Samaj's way of looking at those mantras. Other commentaries of the same mantras may have a different view. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Rebirth, punarjanma is one of the common , distinct, central ideas of the three Dhaarmic traditions, Vedic , Buddhist and Jain. 

The debate is centred around whether the idea was originally that of the avaidika Dhaarmic traditions namely Buddhist and Jain, borrowed into Vaidika tradition from the avaidika traditions or was it pre-Buddhist in Vaidika tradition. 

I cited the article by Dr Joanna Jurewicz to show the arguments in favor of the idea of rebirth being from the Rig Veda itself. 

The rebirth of the Purusha in Purusha Sukta is prototypical. 

 

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[Krishna Kashyap]

Thanks a lot Sri Nagaraj Paturi Ji.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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