Jyotisha-Ekadashi / Rahu Kalam/ Yama gantam

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venkat veeraraghavan

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Jul 30, 2019, 8:48:21 AM7/30/19
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Dear Vidvans,

1. Can you pls shed some light on Ekadashi calculations?

Why is that the Vaishnava calendar and Madhva Gurukula's claendar always off by one-two days compared to conventional Panchanga?

Since Ekadashi is a NItya Upavasa there shouldnt be discrepancies between Vaishnava Calendar and other calendars..


We are just talking about phases of the moon relative to the lat/longitude of the place we are in right?

Please clarify this for me.

I have spoken to many but have been unable to get a satisfactory answer.

2. How is Rahu Kalam / Yama gantam calculated? What activities is it good / bad for?

Please enlighten.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

Anand Hudli

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Jul 30, 2019, 10:22:44 AM7/30/19
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Namamsi,

Regarding your first question, the answer to which is quite involved, I would like to refer you to links to articles I wrote some time ago:


Anand

venkat veeraraghavan

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Jul 30, 2019, 10:53:44 AM7/30/19
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Dear Shri Anand ji-

Thanks for the enlightening post. 
I however have a some questions/ observations here-->
1. What is the status of Brahmacharis wrt Ekadashi? (There is a prominent mention for Grihasthas and Sanyasins) ...Also what are the standards for fasting? I understand Nirjala is best, but in case of aggravated jatharaagni, can fruits and nuts be consumed ? What other activities are vidhi and nishedha as per shastra on Ekadashis?

2. Drigganita as the observed movement should be pradhana since it reflects reality most accurately. It is also my understanding that bijas need to be added to traditional formulas in order to keep calculations in sync with drik data. Not doing so contributes to the discrepancy and the confusion.

3. I understand Smartha and Vaishnava recommendations are different, but has any one looked into why they are divised in such a manner? As far as I understand, the fasting on Ekadashi has its basis in toxins being secreted in the system. There is also the concept of adharma taking refuge in bijas on that day ( is this an arthavada or something else?) hence the nishedha of grain and seeds.
Eitherway there has to be a uniform day on which all can fast. This is not like the celebration of Janmashtami where some celebrate by tithi and others by nakshatra.

Please elucidate.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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Sivasenani Nori

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Jul 30, 2019, 12:44:06 PM7/30/19
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Dear Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan 

Short answer: Check the ekadasi tithi nirnaya in Dharmasindhu or Nirnayasindhu. The difference occurs when there is vedha (for a shuddha ekadashi, there is no difference). In case of vedha, usually it is the latter day for Vaishnavas. For Vaishnavas, Arunodaya is important whereas for Smartas, Suryodaya is important. 

Regards 
N Siva Senani 

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venkat veeraraghavan

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Jul 30, 2019, 1:34:01 PM7/30/19
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Dear Shri Sivasenani ji:

Thanks for the short form answer which is less daunting than the long form one the Shri Anand ji unleashed on me :). I feel more competent dealing with the short form for now.

I understand (theoretically) the arunodaya/suryodaya issue along with difference in calculative models used.
However what I fail to understand is why the adhikaris have given instructions that are contrarian when applied to Vaishnavas and Smarthas. My understanding of ekadashi (do correct if wrong) is that toxins are generated in the body and hence ingestion is avoided afap. Also ekadashi was the day Halahala was generated during samudra manthan so that bit of esoterica as applied to personal practice I understand. Be that as it may, having two different times for this observance seems contrary to the motive of the dharma shastra which is to aid in deha and eventually chitta shuddhi.
It would therefore help a  bit for me to understand why Shri Madhvacharya gave different directions for Vaishnavas and Smarthas. As a Siddha purusha who understood inner dynamics, he must have had valid reasons that went beyond mere nomenclature.

I hope I have expressed my doubt clearly. 
Sometimes Smarthas celebrate the tithi of Janmashtami while some Vaishnavas wait for the Rohini nakshatra to rise. This I can understand.

Ekadashi which is a nitya upavasa for all, prescribing different days based on philosophical nomenclature is a bit problematic for my understanding.

Regards,

Venkat


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Pradyumna Achar

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Jul 31, 2019, 1:22:40 AM7/31/19
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Namaste Sri. Venkat Veeraraghavan,
One small clarification
   > why Shri Madhvacharya gave different directions for Vaishnavas and Smarthas
I haven't come across any such different directions for Shri Madhvacharya. Could you please provide a quote if you have.
Thank you.
Pradyumna

venkat veeraraghavan

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Jul 31, 2019, 3:54:12 AM7/31/19
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Dear Sri Pradyumna Achar ji--> This is for you-->
QUOTE
Having described the dharma as dealt with in the parasharasmR^iti, mAdhavAchArya
(now) proceeds with the determination of the (proper) time relating to practice of 
dharma. 
 
The kAlamAdhava contains a topic devoted to ekAdashI for those who live practising 
shrauta and smArta karmas and who have not been initiated into VaiShnavism as per the
pAncharAtra or vaikhAnasa Agamas. 
अथ श्रौत-स्मार्त-पर्यवसितानां पञ्चरात्रादि-दीक्षारहितानमेकादशी निर्णीयते ।   
He mentions the significance of aruNodaya vedha for VaishNavas and sUryodaya vedha for
smArtas.
 
अरुणोदयवेधस्य वैष्णवविषयत्वे व्यवस्थिते सत्युदयवेधः स्मार्तानुष्ठायिविषयत्वेन परिशिष्यते ।
अत एव स्मर्यते - 
अतिवेधा महावेधा ये वेधास्तिथिषु स्मृताः ।
सर्वेऽप्यवेधा विज्ञेया वेधः सूर्योदये मतः ॥
 
Vedha at aruNodaya (ie. dashamI tithi prevailing during aruNodaya - the period of 4 
ghaTikAs before sunrise) has been established for VaiShnavas. What remains is the 
sUryodayavedha for smArta practitioners. Therefore, the smriti says:
 
(For smArtas), the vedhas mentioned based on aruNodaya, such as ativedha, 
mahAvedha, etc.,  (are for VaiShNavas) and are not to be considered as vedhas 
(for smArtas). Vedha (for smArtas) is at sunrise.  
UNQUOTE
Source: https://lists.advaita-vedanta.org/archives/advaita-l/2010-March/023899.html

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Pradyumna Achar

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Jul 31, 2019, 4:17:27 AM7/31/19
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Dear Sri. Venkat Veeraraghavan,
From the quote, this appears to be from mAdhavAchArya (who is from advaita), and is different from Sri Madhvacharya (Anandatirtha).
Regards
Pradyumna

venkat veeraraghavan

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Jul 31, 2019, 4:25:38 AM7/31/19
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Ah me bad,

I see where your confusion comes from.

I missed an 'a' in the middle. Shri Madhavacharya it is then. I stand corrected, but my original question still stands.

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Prakash Raj Pandey

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Jul 31, 2019, 9:23:03 AM7/31/19
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A tithi signifies an angular difference of 12 degrees between the sun and moon as seen from the earth.

The moon is some 385,000 km away and the sun is some150 million km away from the earth. 

So the angular distance between these two would be the same from all points of earth in any given time; the distance between any two points earth being miniscule compared to the distances of these two heavenly bodies.

Please correct me if I am wrong.


A K Kaul

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Jul 31, 2019, 3:51:45 PM7/31/19
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Dear Shri Pandey ji,
Jai Shri Ram!
Tithi is the difference in ecliptic longitude I.e. the longitude of the moon minus sun divided by twelve.
When the moon is in conjunction with the sun, I.e. when the difference between the lunar and solar longitudes is zero, it is Amanta (New Moon) and when the moon is away by 180 degrees from the sun, it is Purnima ---- Full Moon.
Ecliptic longitudes are measured from the Vernal Equinox by all the observatories the world over.
These conjunctions and oppositions etc. are all symbolic and have nothing to do with their mutual distance. E.g., the sun is millions of times larger than the moon and away by hundreds of thousands of kilometers from the latter.  
There can thus be no real "opposition" or conjunction etc. between the two.  But irrespective of the same, it is pitch dark on an Amavasya and full "illumination" on a Full Moon!
With regards and Jai Shri Ram!
A K Kaul



N Siva Senani 

द्

Sivasenani Nori

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Aug 1, 2019, 12:41:22 AM8/1/19
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Dear Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan

To continue to use the short answer format, I don't know the answers to your questions. 

Still if I write, it is to draw your attention to another difference. What happens when one has to perform a Sraddha on ekadasi. From where my ancestors came from (Guntur district of AP), apparently the Vaishnavas postponed the Sraddha whereas the Smarthas broke the ekadasi vrata of fasting but performed the Sraddha. 

When it comes to these issues - drigganita (we at our home don't follow that), difference in tithis (either due to difference in calculation or interpretation) etc. - the practical solution is to follow achara. 

Having said that, will one not consciously deviate from Achara? I, for one, will when I am convinced that the circumstances demand it. Now the circumstances could be personal or societal. By and large, I applied this discretion in the personal sphere. For questions which affect society as a whole, like whether we should shift celebration of makara Sankranti from Jan 14 to Dec 21, महाजनो येन गतः स पन्थाः। 

Regards 
Senani


Anand Hudli

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Aug 1, 2019, 11:20:07 AM8/1/19
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Dear Venkatji,

On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 8:23:44 PM UTC+5:30, venkat veeraraghavan wrote:
Dear Shri Anand ji-

Thanks for the enlightening post. 
I however have a some questions/ observations here-->
1. What is the status of Brahmacharis wrt Ekadashi? (There is a prominent mention for Grihasthas and Sanyasins) ...Also what are the standards for fasting? I understand Nirjala is best, but in case of aggravated jatharaagni, can fruits and nuts be consumed ? What other activities are vidhi and nishedha as per shastra on Ekadashis?

 The dharmasindhu states, "aShTamavarShAdUrdhvam-ashItitamavarshaparyantam-ekAdashIvratAdhikAraH". Anyone from 8-80 years of age has adhikAra to follow Ekadashi vrata. If a person is strong enough, the vrata can be continued even beyond 80. Hence, brahmachAris too are included (unless, as in cases where the boy is less than 8 years old, vide garbhAShTame aShTame, etc). 
Those who are considered "ashaktas" can eat once in the  night (naktabhojana), or consume "haviShyAnna", fruits, sesame, milk, water, ghee, panchagavya, or just air. Please see dharmasindhu (first pariccheda) for details. 

2. Drigganita as the observed movement should be pradhana since it reflects reality most accurately. It is also my understanding that bijas need to be added to traditional formulas in order to keep calculations in sync with drik data. Not doing so contributes to the discrepancy and the confusion.

3. I understand Smartha and Vaishnava recommendations are different, but has any one looked into why they are divised in such a manner? As far as I understand, the fasting on Ekadashi has its basis in toxins being secreted in the system. There is also the concept of adharma taking refuge in bijas on that day ( is this an arthavada or something else?) hence the nishedha of grain and seeds.
Eitherway there has to be a uniform day on which all can fast. This is not like the celebration of Janmashtami where some celebrate by tithi and others by nakshatra.

Ekadashi has been followed by two distinct groups traditionally - smArtas and vaiShNavas- and that is the source of variation in the Ekadashi date, apart  from deshabheda and Panchangabheda. For Vaishnavas, the nonmixing of Ekadashi with Dashami is important, whereas for smArtas, the breaking of Ekadashi fast must happen on the dvAdashi, never the Trayodashi. If this means they will have to fast on a Dashami-mixed Ekadashi, they will do so. I have heard one reason for the smArta rule. There are, among smArtas, those who follow the Pradosha vrata (fast) on the Trayodashi. Hence, they would not be happy breaking the Ekadashi fast on a Trayodashi, after having fasted on a dvAdashi. Desha bheda is due to the difference in sunrise times from one place to another. Since Ekadashi vrata is based on the tithi at sunrise (or aruNodaya), it is possible that Ekadashi is on one date in one place and on another date in another place. Panchangabheda is the usage of different panchanga methods, such as sUrya siddhAnta and dRggaNita.

Anand

Kind Regards,

Venkat

On Tue, Jul 30, 2019 at 7:52 PM Anand Hudli <ahu...@gmail.com> wrote:
Namamsi,

Regarding your first question, the answer to which is quite involved, I would like to refer you to links to articles I wrote some time ago:


Anand


On Tuesday, July 30, 2019 at 6:18:21 PM UTC+5:30, venkat veeraraghavan wrote:
Dear Vidvans,

1. Can you pls shed some light on Ekadashi calculations?

Why is that the Vaishnava calendar and Madhva Gurukula's claendar always off by one-two days compared to conventional Panchanga?

Since Ekadashi is a NItya Upavasa there shouldnt be discrepancies between Vaishnava Calendar and other calendars..


We are just talking about phases of the moon relative to the lat/longitude of the place we are in right?

Please clarify this for me.

I have spoken to many but have been unable to get a satisfactory answer.

2. How is Rahu Kalam / Yama gantam calculated? What activities is it good / bad for?

Please enlighten.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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venkat veeraraghavan

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Aug 1, 2019, 12:08:03 PM8/1/19
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Dear Shri Anand ji-

Thank you for your explanation.

I have just one doubt. You say Vaishnavas are more concerned with shuddha ekadashi rather than breaking fast on dwadashi.
The episode of Ambarisha a Vaishnava who got into trouble with Rshi Durvasas because of his necessity to do paraNa on dwadashi.

brāhmaṇātikrame doṣo
dvādaśyāṁ yad apāraṇe
yat kṛtvā sādhu me bhūyād
adharmo vā na māṁ spṛśet
ambhasā kevalenātha
kariṣye vrata-pāraṇam
āhur ab-bhakṣaṇaṁ viprā
hy aśitaṁ nāśitaṁ ca tat

The above passages show the necessity to break the fast on dvaadashi itself failing which the person accrues adharma.
Can you also comment on that please?

Thanks,

Venkat

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Anand Hudli

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Aug 2, 2019, 2:12:18 AM8/2/19
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Dear Venkatji,

The rule for breaking the fast during dvadashi holds only when the Ekadashi fast is observed on a shuddha Ekadashi. If the Ekadashi is viddha, and if the fast is observed on dvadashi, it is possible the fast will be broken on the Trayodashi. This can happen for Vaishnavas, but not smArtas, who would fast even on a Viddha Ekadashi to avoid breaking the fast on a Trayodashi. Please see the examples in the linked articles sent earlier.

Anand

venkat veeraraghavan

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Aug 2, 2019, 8:37:19 AM8/2/19
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Dear Shri Anand ji-

Thanks for the clarification.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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