a question regarding the usage of -gotra versus -sagotra

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear colleagues,

     I am forwarding a question from a friend of mine, for which I do not have a clear answer:

Quote:

Dear Madhav,

I thought you might have a quick answer to this question. When mentioning gotras, one sees "Visvāmitra gotra", but also "Ātreyasa gotra", and "Kāsyapasa gotra". 

Since the ṛṣis in the two latter cases are Atri and Kasyapa, it would appear that the corresponding gotras should be "Ātreya" and "Kāsyapa", without the "sa" suffix. (Indeed, one also sees "Ātreya gotra", and "Kāsyapa gotra".)

Is it the case that the correct terms are "Ātreya sagotra", and "Kāsyapa sagotra", and the conventional usage is simply an incorrect parsing? However, this would require "Visvāmitra sagotra", which one does not see.

Or is there something more to it than that?

Unquote

Why would someone be referred to as Viśvāmitra-gotra, but others as Ātreya-sagotra or Kāśyapa-sagotra?  I will appreciate a clarification.  

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[Krishnaprasad G]

all gotras should be added sa

bhaardhvaaj sagotra etc.
 Charudeva Shastry uses it every where. This rule is said in Grhya sutra etc, I don't remember right now. I will send reference later. But every gotra is added sa and not only few.

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[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

सगोत्रः --

सकारेण तु वक्तव्यं गोत्रं सर्वत्र धीमता ।

सकारः कुतपो ज्ञेयः तस्मात् यत्नेन तं वदेत् ॥ मत्स्यपुराणम्

यथा काश्यपसगोत्रेति ।

पराशरसगोत्रस्य वृद्धस्य तु महात्मनः ।

भिक्षोः पञ्चशिखस्याहं शिष्यः परमधार्मिकः ॥  इति मोक्षधर्मेषु प्रयोगाच्च ।

                          ---- अध्यायः 3 , श्राद्धपरिभाषानिर्णयः , निर्णयसिन्धुः

धन्यो’स्मि 

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

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[rniyengar]

What I have heard (yet to locate textual evidence if any):  When some teachers accepted students who had forgotten their gotra or those without confirmed gotra affiliation, they were treated as belonging to the Guru's gotra that is Sagotra, and could not marry guru's daughter. Such persons in their abhivaadanam had to say ..... sagotrah, etc.  

Thanks to Prof.Korada for the references. But (to the extent I have observed) not all vaidikas add the prefix 'sa' in their Vedic s'raadha rites . Over years due to proximity of  two words mostly used in private and in temple worship, the sound 'sa' might have been treated as a suffix. Some purohits of course add 'sa' for all. May be that is based on the references cited by Prof. Korada. It is also possible there are family and regional differences in this practice. 

regards

RN Iyengar

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

 When some teachers accepted students who had forgotten their gotra or those without confirmed gotra affiliation, they were treated as belonging to the Guru's gotra that is Sagotra, 

                                                              ...... Vidvan R N Iyengar

तत्रैव (=हेमाद्रौ) चन्द्रिकायां च स्मृत्यन्तरे --

गोत्रस्य त्वपरिज्ञाने काश्यपं गोत्रमुच्यते ।

यस्मादाह श्रुतिस्सर्वाः प्रजाः कश्यपसंभवाः ॥

यत्तु सत्याषाढः -- अथ अज्ञातबन्धोः पुरोहितगोत्रेण आचार्यगोत्रेण वा इति तद्वैवाहपरम् ।

                                                 ....... 3अध्यायः , श्राद्धपरिभाषानिर्णयः , निर्णयसिन्धुः

So if the गोत्रम् is not known it is काश्यपगोत्रम् । 

In विवाह , if  the गोत्रम् of बन्धु is not known then it will be पुरोहितगोत्रम् or आचार्यगोत्रम् - this is what is meant by  सत्याषाढ ।

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

--

[Shriramana Sharma]

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 9:24:03 AM UTC+5:30, korada wrote:

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

सगोत्रः --

सकारेण तु वक्तव्यं गोत्रं सर्वत्र धीमता ।

सकारः कुतपो ज्ञेयः तस्मात् यत्नेन तं वदेत् ॥ मत्स्यपुराणम्

यथा काश्यपसगोत्रेति ।

पराशरसगोत्रस्य वृद्धस्य तु महात्मनः ।

भिक्षोः पञ्चशिखस्याहं शिष्यः परमधार्मिकः ॥  इति मोक्षधर्मेषु प्रयोगाच्च ।

                          ---- अध्यायः 3 , श्राद्धपरिभाषानिर्णयः , निर्णयसिन्धुः

With thanks for Prof Korada for the above illumination, I would just like to mention that the practice of adding -sa- is (to my limited knowledge) found in Telugu communities but not in Tamil or Kannada. I am not sure about other regions.
 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thank you Professor Korada for the references that indicate that -sagotra should be added to all Gotra references.  The variation in actual usage may simply be due to people not following this rule.

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[Madhav Deshpande]

To add more of a grammatical note, a term like viśvāmitra-gotra in Sanskrit can have two possible meanings: a) the gotra of viśvāmitra (a Tatpuruṣa compound), and b) one whose gotra is viśvāmitra (a Bahuvrīhi compound).  On the other hand, the term viśvāmitra-sagotra is more clear in having only one meaning: "one who has the same gotra as viśvāmitra."  This may be the reason why the passages quoted by Professor Korada prescribe the use of -sagotra expression.  In my family rituals, the declaration included something like aham bhāradvāja-gotrotpannaḥ ... "I, born in the bhāradvāja-gotra."  In this usage, the term bhāradvāja-gotra is used just to refer to the gotra of bhāradvāja, and not in the sense of "one with the bhāradvāja-gotra."   I don't remember the usage of bhāradvāja-sagotra in my family.  In any case, thanks for all the suggestions, and I have communicated these to my friend, who posed the original question to me.

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

Chtursagar.... Angirasa brahsptyaya bradvaja traya.. Bhardvajasa gotraha asvalyana sutraha

[Madhav Deshpande]

I was surprised to see that in the lists of gotras circulated on the web, in many cases, the "sa" of "X-sagotra" has been attached to the name of the gotra itself, i.e. "Xsa".  One can see several examples in the list below:

http://familypedia.wikia.com/wiki/Brahmin_gotra_system

This list includes "Ātreyasa", for instance, as a gotra-name.  The only way I can think how this came about is a misanalysis of "Ātreya-sagotra" as "Ātreyasa-gotra."  I have not checked the names listed in texts like the Gotra-pravara-mañjarī to see if this phenomenon has affected the lists in Sanskrit texts as well.

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

--

[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 9:16 PM, Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu> wrote:

I was surprised to see that in the lists of gotras circulated on the web, in many cases, the "sa" of "X-sagotra" has been attached to the name of the gotra itself, i.e. "Xsa".  One can see several examples in the list below:

Even I have come across 'Harithsa, Angirasa' in common usage and no 'sa' suffix to other gotras.  

subrahmanian.v

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Just a point to ponder:

All other Gotra names with -sa added are three syllable words and vis'vamitra is a four syllable word. -sa added to vis'vAmitra makes it five syllables. Probably in comparison to all other four syllable - - - +sa words vis'vAmitra + sa might sound longer and the reason for avoiding =sa only in that word could be looking for shorter word length.   

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Ashok Aklujkar]

It is well-known that the consideration of sagotra is important in forming relationships through marriage. Secondly, it is possible but unlikely that in a culture like that of the Brahmins gotra and sagotra will be used indiscriminately — as if they were perfect synonyms or as if the use of a longer word when a shorter word was available did not matter. Should any effort not be made to study more closely the contexts in which the two words occur? Should questions such as the following, for example, not be asked: Does sagotra occur more frequently in those contexts in which sharing or not sharing of a gotra has dharma-śāstric importance/implications/relevance? Are there indications of loose usage becoming more common as we come ahead in time? I hope someone will undertake such a study. It may reveal or clarify some aspects of Indian history.

a.a.

[Madhav Deshpande]

I wholeheartedly support Ashok's suggestion.  The person who put the original question to me is an engineer, and not likely to undertake such a study.  But I do see the value to checking the context of the usage of these terms.

Madhav

On Tue, Jan 3, 2017 at 2:42 PM, Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

It is well-known that the consideration of sagotra is important in forming relationships through marriage. Secondly, it is possible but unlikely that in a culture like that of the Brahmins gotra and sagotra will be used indiscriminately — as if they were perfect synonyms or as if the use of a longer word when a shorter word was available did not matter. Should any effort not be made to study more closely the contexts in which the two words occur? Should questions such as the following, for example, not be asked: Does sagotra occur more frequently in those contexts in which sharing or not sharing of a gotra has dharma-śāstric importance/implications/relevance? Are there indications of loose usage becoming more common as we come ahead in time? I hope someone will undertake such a study. It may reveal or clarify some aspects of Indian history.

a.a.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The original question was

I thought you might have a quick answer to this question. When mentioning gotras, one sees "Visvāmitra gotra", but also "Ātreyasa gotra", and "Kāsyapasa gotra". 

 

 

Since the ṛṣis in the two latter cases are Atri and Kasyapa, it would appear that the corresponding gotras should be "Ātreya" and "Kāsyapa", without the "sa" suffix. (Indeed, one also sees "Ātreya gotra", and "Kāsyapa gotra".)

 

 

Is it the case that the correct terms are "Ātreya sagotra", and "Kāsyapa sagotra", and the conventional usage is simply an incorrect parsing? However, this would require "Visvāmitra sagotra", which one does not see.

 

Or is there something more to it than that?

His question has a small amount of grammatical aspect also in mind, though he could not carry it till the end of his question.

That is about the taddhita forms ātrēya , kāśyapa etc. If he continued the question till the end he would have asked why only viśvāmitra; why not vaiśvāmitra ?

It should be either atri gōtra, kaśyapa gōtra etc. to be in line with viśvāmitra gōtra or it should be vaiśvāmitra gōtra to be in line with ātrēya gōtra, kāśyapa gōtra ; why is it not so, why no taddhita in the case of viśvāmitra , why only in the case of atri and kaśyapa? would have been his question.

But additionally, there is the issue of -sa.

That makes the question why not vaiśvāmitrasa, when it is ātrēyasa, kāśyapasa etc. in other cases.

                                              --------------------------------------

Since Prof. Aklujkar suggested the study of context of use, let us divide the contexts into two kinds: written documented textual contexts from the past and the contemporary oral contexts.

I think the original questioner was keeping oral contexts in the contemporary ritual performances that he witnessed in mind.

To study the oral contexts , fieldwork based ethnographic survey/observation needs to be done if there is difference in usages based on context. If a difference is observed it should be surveyed if the speakers are conscious of it. If it is found that they are conscious, then it should be if they know the reason for the difference.

My hypothesis is that even if a context-based difference in usage is found, the users are either not conscious or do not know the reason. It would then be left to the researcher to infer the reason based on the found pattern.

                                                         -------------------------------------

Since now it has been shown by Prof. Korada that -sa has been instructed to be a norm by scriptures, not using -sa should be seen as deviation from the norm, wherever it is found.

                                                         ----------------------------------------

If the difference is found to be not based on the context, but on the name of the r̥ṣi , then the reason must be identified on that basis only.

Is viśvāmitra treated differently than other r̥ṣis? Is that the difference in the usage?

If attitude towards different r̥ṣis is identified not to be the reason, then other reasons (like the length of the word ) could be looked into.

                                                           ------------------------------------------

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Nagarajji.

Madhav Deshpande

[S P Narang]

Hello: Another institution was Pravara. I think it is absolutely lost. regds. spnarang

---

From: Ashok Aklujkar <ashok.a...@gmail.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 1:12 AM
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} a question regarding the usage of -gotra versus -sagotra

This message is eligible for Automatic Cleanup! (ashok.a...@gmail.com) Add cleanup rule | More info

It is well-known that the consideration of sagotra is important in forming relationships through marriage. Secondly, it is possible but unlikely that in a culture like that of the Brahmins gotra and sagotra will be used indiscriminately — as if they were perfect synonyms or as if the use of a longer word when a shorter word was available did not matter. Should any effort not be made to study more closely the contexts in which the two words occur? Should questions such as the following, for example, not be asked: Does sagotra occur more frequently in those contexts in which sharing or not sharing of a gotra has dharma-śāstric importance/implications/relevance? Are there indications of loose usage becoming more common as we come ahead in time? I hope someone will undertake such a study. It may reveal or clarify some aspects of Indian history.

a.a.

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[Sivasenani Nori]

Sir

For the same gotra both usages are also visible in some cases. For example many people are haritasagotras - i.e. those who belong to the same gotra as sage Harita. This is so common that I am not giving examples. The same set of people (belonging to the gotra of sage Harita) are also referred to as haarIta. One example is from the beginning poems of Andhramahaabhaaratamu where Narayana Bhatta, the inspiration to Nannaya is described as a "haarIta". The reference to ka~ncukI etc. is mostly in a similar manner in Sanskrit plays; yet, in pravara the -sagotra form is used.

Regards

Senani

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Sivasenaniji.  

Madhav Deshpande

Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

One cannot be qualified as, say, Atri-gotra. He is an Ātreya or Ātreya-sagotra that is a descendant of Atri or 'of the same faily as the descendants of Atri have'

Best

DB

[Ashok Aklujkar]

On Jan 4, 2017, at 9:13 AM, Sivasenani Nori <sivas...@gmail.com> wrote:

> For example many people are haritasagotras - i.e. those who belong to the same gotra as sage Harita. … The same set of people (belonging to the gotra of sage Harita) are also referred to as haarIta. 

If Harita has a gotra, he would not be a progenitor of the first order. There would be an ancestor of his whose name would serve as his gotra designation. Do we have any information in that regard? Alternatively, is there any textual evidence enabling us to take Harita in a secondary sense? (Compare: a Buddha can be a Buddhist only in a secondary sense.)

a.a.

[Sivasenani Nori]

​Sir

​I am not aware of any historical usage except the living tradition where people describe themselves as harita.sagotraH ApastambasUtraH.  In order to explain this usage, the above explanation was offered. In my view, it need not necessarily involve lakshaNA - though there is no problem in resorting to it if mukhyArthabAdha is established - as the first progenitor can have a gotra, expressed in terms such as "the gotra which was started with him" (just like we could say that the sAkyamuni Buddha believed in "the teachings of the Buddha")  though he cannot take the patronymic name (as the gotrApatyam rules are clear).​

​

​ Am I missing something here?

budhajanavidheyaH

Sivasenani​

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

Seeking a clarification on a  related yet important question  about Gotra-Identity declaration, as it does call for a ‘ Dharma-Shaastra –Research and understanding of History ; and  Sanskrit-language ’ .

Just as ‘ Varna’ classification method got diluted and distorted to ‘ Jati-Mata- Kula’ patterns to expand the original 4 Varnas to explode to 6000 plus Jana-jatis in India, the limited  ‘Vedic Gotra systems have exploded and diluted to some three hundred plus tags, unlisted so far to their completeness and complexity.   

 

Do we have to pick a meaning of convenience for this word ‘Gotra’  from the Vachaspatyam list entry [L=18038]  OR MW entry on page 364, where  one of the listed meaning of    ‘Gotra’ is  ‘protection for shelter of cows , cow-pen, cow-shed...' ??   as pointed by Prof. Deshpande < It would then be left to the researcher to infer the reason based on the found pattern  >   When I hear a ‘Hindu Priest’ doing a temple archana in the name of ‘Shiva –Gotrodbhavasya… ’ , I get confused on the ‘Gotra issue ’  and  ‘ Gotrodbhava  lineage’!

 

Question:  What is the  scope (=extent, nature and purpose )  of   ‘Gotra’ identity?  Why ‘Gotra’ ?  Is Gotra linked to Varna , Jati  Or Samskara ?

 

                     Is it a ‘ Human –Universal ( inherited / installed or contextually given)   OR a  disposable –language –memory- dynamic tag of convenience?  

                    Is  ‘Gotra identity limited by Gender and Nationality factors ?  

                   Why is ‘ Gotra’ critically to be inherited by family lineage or ‘ Guru’  OR change  in ‘ Marriage’ for only one gender ? What about people who do not recognize  ‘Gotra’ issue at all ? (Eg. Tantra schools) ?

 

Reasoning behind the question:  (1)  The discussions in the thread, have touched in one way or another, on all the above aspects , starting with the ‘ way Gotra identity is declared, with the ‘sa-‘ inclusion or other wise.

 

The   issue then lands on  grammarians lap ! Panini rules deal with ‘Gotra, Gotraapatya, Gotra-Vruddha..’ et al.  Listed names  apart, what provoked a ‘Samskruth grammarian to invest such an intense entanglement on ‘Gotra defining names’, unless they have Human relevance beyond a Historic identity of a proud ( or not so proud ?!) community repeating ( One, Three or Five)  names of the Gotra-pravartaka Rishi’s?  

 

 Is there a reason to stretch this deliberation to vast mixed basket of  Hindu/ Humans Globally ( OR within India, beyond a narrow segment of practicing Brahmanas, still with an unshaken shraddhaa?  As a public National Identity  debate?

 

 For the limited  ‘Brahmanas also,’  Gotra identity  seems to have been so narrowly limited by the defining   ‘Samskara’ of ‘ upanayana’  and optionally there by Father or the Acharya ??   

 

 Is there any Dharma-Shaastra prayaschitta rule which addresses ‘Gotra –Bhrashtataa’ any where like the issue of ‘  barring Sa-Gotra Vivaha / then prescribing a  ‘ prayaschitaa’ ?   

 

(2)   How does one explain ‘Gotra-debate related’ and critical issue of ‘Sa-Pindataa’, used as a criterion  in associating  ‘aashaucha’ ( inaccurately transalted as religious impurity ?  and thus a  prohibitory for undertaking certain auspicious works )

 

(3 ) When the  recent studies of ‘Culture Genealogy’,  were published, this theme surfaced prominently and caused heated debates across academicians, traditionalists and linguists ! The following links may be some interesting reads in this connection of my question:

http://www.hitxp.com/articles/veda/science-genetics-vedic-hindu-gotra-y-chromosome-male-lineage-extinction/   

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogical_DNA_test  

 

http://world.time.com/2013/08/27/what-dna-testing-reveals-about-indias-caste-system/

 

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Dipak Bhattacharya
Sent: Wednesday, January 4, 2017 1:02 PM
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} a question regarding the usage of -gotra versus -sagotra

 

One cannot be qualified as, say, Atri-gotra. He is an Ātreya or Ātreya-sagotra that is a descendant of Atri or 'of the same faily as the descendants of Atri have'

Best

DB

 

--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

 

[rniyengar]

On Thursday, January 5, 2017 at 10:30:20 AM UTC+5:30, Dr.BVK Sastry wrote:

Namaste

 

 Is there any Dharma-Shaastra prayaschitta rule which addresses ‘Gotra –Bhrashtataa’ any where like the issue of ‘  barring Sa-Gotra Vivaha / then prescribing a  ‘ prayaschitaa’ ?   

Something related to this question appears in the Principles of Pravara & Gotra by Chentsala Rao. Please see the attached English Introduction of the book. The scan quality is poor but you would be able to read by zooming.  It seems the penalty for sagotra-vivaaha is that the children would belong to Kashyapa Gotra. 

Thanks

RNI

[Subrahmanyam Korada]

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Yes , I did not attempt the question of -- आत्रेयसगोत्रः , काश्यपसगोत्रः vs  

विश्वामित्रसगोत्रः (तद्धितः)

                                          ( विद्वान्सौ माधवः नागराजश्च) ।

Also the question by विद्वान् BVK शास्त्री - पाणिनेः अपत्याधिकारे गोत्रम् पारिभाषिकम् - अन्यत्र लौकिकम् गोत्रम् ।

I shall go for a full throttle discussion on गोत्रम् - गोत्रावयवः etc taking महाभाष्यम् / धर्मशास्त्रम्etc - next week as I am leaving for Art of Living , B'lore for a Keynote Address on Abhinavagupta .

विद्वान् नारङ्ग may ask for specific question on प्रवर . as it is at once a vast area.

धन्यो’स्मि

Dr.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit, CALTS,
University of Hyderabad,
Ph:09866110741(M),91-40-23010741(R),040-23133660(O)

Skype Id: Subrahmanyam Korada

Blog: Koradeeyam.blogspot.in 

--

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

5.1.17
Gear Madhav,

We do not add any new information. I refer to two works 1. John Brough's The early Brahmaniical system of Gotra and Pravara that includes the Gotrapravaramanjari. baudhayana;srautasuutra's chapter on Gotras and Pravaras is highly illuminating.

DB

--

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Dipak.

Madhav

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

6/1/17
Dear Prof. Akluikar,

If I understood you correctly you are asking about the earliest sage of the family whom one rarely refers to as the original ancestor, and instead the family bears the name of some well-known ancestor descending from the pravartaka sage creating a secondary gotras.

Though that has been the practice, the name of the gotra-pravartaka sage is remembered through the pravara relating to the gotra. Baudhāyana mentions eight pravartaka sages. Six of them are the ¤ṣis of the ¡rṣeyama¸ḍalas ie of the family books. The pravara does not change while the gotra does.

 My views may be commented upon. I wrote from my understanding of the Gotra-Pravara chapter of the Baudhāyana ¿.s£tra, but I do not have the book with me at present. Regret the long lecture

Best

DB

[Ashok Aklujkar]

Dear Prof. Bhattacharya,

My question/comment should be understood on the background of the earlier general discussion, not on the background of any specific text talking about gotras and pravaras. A proposal was made that the use of “sagotra” might have become indistinguishable from that of “gotra” in those compositions or compounds in which “sagotra” appeared after the name of a sage/seer whom we take as the starting point of a gotra line. I had pointed out why synonymity, at least in the early usage, was unlikely. On that background I further pointed out that there was also a logical difficulty in taking uses such as harita-sagotra as virtually the same as harita-gotra in that, under the former — under ‘one having the same gotra as Harita’, the (unwanted) implication would be that Harita is not a gotra-starter — that Harita would come across as having a gotra already (that was now shared by the person being described as harita-sagotra.

a.a. 

[V Subrahmanian]

There is an 'Angirasa' Rishi:

https://sanatanisrivaishnava.wordpress.com/2014/12/27/angirasa-group-of-gotras-and-pravaras-of-smarta-brahmins-and-sri-vaishnava-brahmins-saptharshis-manvantaras-angirasa-14-groups-of-sri-vaishnava-brahmins-srimath-paravastu-swami-mutt/

//Angirasa Maharshi

Angirasa Maharishi was the most renowned and highest ranked Rishi who lived during the Vedic period in Sanatana Hindu Bharata. He was one of the seven Saptharishis of the first Manvantara. And the seven Rishis of the 1^st Manvantara were Angirasa, Atri, Kratu, Marichi, Pulaha, Pulasthya and Vashista.

Many verses in the Vedas are attributed to Angirasa Rishi. The Sixth Mandala of the Rigveda was formulated by Angirasa Rishi and his descendants. Rigveda, Yajurveda and Samaveda were in use during his time. Vedic gods were appeased and various animals were sacrificed in the Yagnas. Everybody during the Vedic period ate both plant and animal food. In that environment, Angirasa Rishi teamed up with his fellow Vedic Rishi Atharvana Rishi to formulate Atharvana Veda, the fourth Veda among the Rig, Yajur, Sama and Athravana Vedas.//

In our (smārta) Sandhya worship, before Japa, we invoke sapta rishis: atri, bhrugu,....angirasa...

If his name itself is Angirasa, how is it possible to have the 'sagotra' suffix to this name? Is it Angirasa sagotra? 

See also this:  http://incarnateword.in/sabcl/10/the-angirasa-rishis

//The name Angirasa occurs in the Veda in two different forms, Angira and Angirasa, although the latter is the more common; we have also the patronymic Angirasa applied more than once to the god Brihaspati.//

regards

subrahmanian.v

 

[N.R.Joshi]

Jan6, 2017

 

This question is to all scholars including Prof Korada.

Nowadays marriages are taking place within Brahmin subcastes-like Yajurvedi marrying Rigvedi, or Yajurvedi marrying CKP or Sarasvata Brahmin. Also I know a case where a Kokanastha doctor lady married Veershaive Lingayata doctor. Under such marriages what will be gotra of their children? Thanks. N.R.joshi.

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Subrahmanyam Korada <kora...@gmail.com>
To: "bvpar...@googlegroups.com" <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} a question regarding the usage of -gotra versus -sagotra

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

>Nowadays marriages are taking place within Brahmin subcastes-like Yajurvedi marrying Rigvedi, or Yajurvedi marrying CKP or Sarasvata Brahmin. Also I know a case where a Kokanastha doctor lady married Veershaive Lingayata doctor. Under such marriages what will be gotra of their children? Thanks. N.R.joshi.

> "within Brahmin subcastes-like Yajurvedi marrying Rigvedi, or Yajurvedi marrying CKP or Sarasvata Brahmin"

'within'? Probably, you mean inter-subcaste marriages are taking place. Yajurvedi, Rigvedi etc. are not subcastes, nor are they endogamous groups.  

Of course, it is true that among those sub-groups of Brahmins which in course of history turned into almost endogamous subgroups within the caste called Brahmins, nowadays, endogamy at that level is gradually disappearing. i.e. the Brahmin sub-group which used to have marriages within that sub-group only is nowadays accepting marriages with another endogamous Brahmin subgroup. This does not lead to any intrigue with regard to Gatra because the patrilineal gotra inheritence of the offsprings i.e., that- the offsprings getting the gotra of the father applies here- is a common knowledge and a simple, well established, well known norm.

>a Kokanastha doctor lady married Veershaive Lingayata doctor

is a different issue. It is an inter-caste marriage. 

If inter-caste marriages take place on account of the people involved not believing in caste, gotra etc., then there is no question of such families bothering about which  gotra to the offsprings ? etc. If they believe in gotra but not in the endogamy rule of the caste, then only the question of which  gotra to the offsprings ? etc. comes. This issue is arising at the time of the offspring performing pujas, marriages etc. They are mentioning the gotra of the father. 

( Non-dvija castes have a non-rishi name gotra system. If the father belongs to such a non-dvija caste, offspring mention such a non-rishi name gotra as their gotra) 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sorry, I should have mentioned that the question from Dr Joshi is a digression from the gotra , sagotra usage discussion, focus of this thread. Let us have further discussion on Dr Joshi's question in a separate thread so that gotra sagotra word usage discussion can continue in this thread. 

[V Subrahmanian]

On the topic of 'gotra / sagotra' expressions, here is the result of a search across the prasthānatraya bhāṣya of Shankaracharya:

न च भृग्वादीनां भृग्वादिसगोत्रतया । [Brahmasutra 1.3.26]

राथीतरः रथीतरसगोत्रः राथीतर आचार्यो मन्यते । [Taittiriya shikshavalli 9.1]

[In the search this two are the only instances of the usage 'sagotra' found]  The rest are all without the 'sa' prefix to the word 'gotra']:

भारद्वजाय भरद्वाजगोत्राय  सत्यवहाय [Mundaka 1.1.2]

जरत्कारुगोत्रो  जारत्कारवः  Br.up. 3.2.1

काप्यस्य कपिगोत्रस्य,  Br,up.3.3.1

कपिगोत्रस्य काप्यस्य  Br.up.3.7.1

दल्भगोत्रो दाल्भ्यः,  Chān.up. 1.8.1

कापेयं कपिगोत्रमभिप्रतारिणं  Chan.up.4.3.5

गार्ग्यः गर्गगोत्रोत्पन्नः ।  [Praśna.1.1.]

From the above it looks like both modes of expressions were prevalent: with and without 'sa' prefix.

regards

subrahmanian.v

On Sat, Jan 7, 2017 at 2:48 AM, N.R.Joshi <gira...@juno.com> wrote:

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[Dipak Bhattacharya]

Could you kindly cite an example; that might make the specific question clear.

DB