' Visarga was completely lost in all Prakrits' and Samskruth articulation teaching

[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

 

I am starting this new thread in connection with the observations made by Prof. Deshpande, in the specific context of ' Visarga was completely lost in all Prakrits'.

 

I am anchoring the post to two references:

          a)  Grammatical Literature- Hartmut Scharfe

               Otto Harrassowitz Verlag, 1977 - India - 139 pages

                https://books.google.co.in/books?id=2_VbnWkZ-SYC&lpg=PA67&pg=PA196#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

          b)  A project of  post independence - Indian on languages supported  by American foundation at Deccan College.

                     https://www.dcpune.ac.in/pdf/215-240%20Deccan-NAAC-Dept.%20of%20Linguistics.pdf - Specific focus on Page 216- Section-C. Thrust development research areas.

 

The question: Are there any studies  on the impact of the following project on Classical Samskruth teaching by standards of Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya ?

 

Basis resource refeence for the question:      The quote drawn from page 199 of the resoruce (a) metnioned above.

 

 

The author, further  makes a pertinent obseration in a different context, which holds good even for today.  the observation on page 193  reads:

 

 

Section (Extract) :   The connection of this research connects to Turkestan ( and convention of writing Visarga).

 

 

 

Request :  Samskruth Varnamaalaa pronunciation unless anchored to Maheswara sutras and norms of Shikhsaa Shastra will fall awfully short of Paninian Standards and fail the expectation of 'Vedanga-Vyakarana'  needed for Vedic studies, practicals and research. Placing 'Vedas' in any other alien frame is like 'studying fish like a bird'.

 

Look forward for help in understanding the issues invovled in teaching ' Samskruth Pronunciation' by Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya standards .

 

The  deeper implications are on current  methods implemented and incoprporated in  Sanskrit teacher training systems, conversation, scripting and transliteration.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

 

 

---

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>
Sent: Friday, May 8, 2020 6:10 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Arabic Visarga

 

Dear Radhakrishna Ji,

 

     The description of विसर्ग in all phonetic texts like the Śikṣās and the Prātiśākhyas is that it is not only a kaṇṭhya sound, it is also an aghoṣa "voiceless" sound unlike ह which is included in the घोषवत् "voiced" consonants.  What happened in the history of Indo-Aryan languages is that the visarga was completely lost in all Prakrits that were the mother-tongues of the later Sanskrit-users.  However, the voiced ह survived in all the Prakrits from the ancient to modern times.  Under the influence of this situation, the pronunciation of visarga was affected and in many regions of India a word like देवै: came to be pronounced as देवैहि.  This is no surprise, as the instrumental plural form reported in Prakrit and Pali exactly matches देवेहि [Skt. ऐ > ए, standard change in Pali and Prakrit]. I am not familiar with Dravidian languages, and don't quite know what influence they had on the pronunciation of Sanskrit in the regions speaking Dravidian languages.  With best wishes,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

 

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear BVK Sastry Ji,

     I want to add one clarification.  The info on Buddhist Sanskrit Grammarians that you have quoted relates to grammars of Sanskrit composed by Buddhist grammarians like Kumāralāta.  These are not grammars of Prakrit. So the fact that Kumāralāta describes Visarga does not mean that the Visarga existed in Prakrit. We have grammars of Pali composed in the Theravada traditions in Sri Lanka and Burma, but those grammars are grammars of Pali and not Sanskrit.   The Buddhist Sanskrit grammarians were all from the northern Mahayana tradition whose scriptures were in Sanskrit and obviously the Visarga did survive in Buddhist Sanskrit as it did in Sanskrit used by the Jain and the HIndu traditions.  But the written representation of Visarga by all these traditions gives no indication of the changing pronunciation of the Visarga.

    Your quoted page about the beginning of the teaching of modern linguistics in Pune in 1954 is informative, but I am not sure what it has to do with the discussion on the pronunciation of the Visarga.  I must be missing something.

     With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. I agree with your observations and clariifcation. Thanks.

 

2.  I was intending to connect and highlight  this post as  a  continuation of previous thread on  ' Visarga' in non Paninian/ non-vedic language  context.

 

       The scripting convention of visarga as two ' bindu's-   in the reference text for Buddhist grammar was interesting, as it comes from a land beyond India and a different langauge-eco system.

 

       The articulation value associated with a visual script symbol, as a oral tradiiton has undergone tremendous change and distortion, to say the least.

        The standard of pronunciation is now one of personal preference and liking. There is a need to rethink on what constitutes a ' Shuddha Uccharana' !

        It is not enough to pass on the baton to 'Vedic scholar and  gurukul-institution'.

 

       What we see in shikshaa- grammar texts is a semi-physiological description of the phonation process.  

        Everything told in Samskruth tradition is  not mapped to or investigated in modern linguistic studies- either in social or scientiifc models.   

         I am limiting my observation  in this thread to basics of teaching language basics  in early schooling. ( I prefer to keep out  Science part  of Speech-analytics in Samskrutham).

 

       The   marker for  ' Visarga' in non Paninian/ non-vedic language  context  is to distinguisn ' visarga' in Samskrutham vis-à-vis  'Visarga' in other Brahmi, brahmi -derived/ linked/ influenced languages. 

 

3.   May be other way of articulating the question is :

 

       What might have been the  design  intention, utility,  and  role  of  indian system of teaching   anuswara and visarga as a part of   barakadi / gunitakshara - scripting and articulation   in all brahmi   

      languages , as a part of language learning in early formal schooling ?

 

     Was it mistaken introduction or  intentional design to align rest of indian languages to Samskruth model  OR  teach something which is just redundant and useless in later languge- literature studies ?

 

3. The grammars of Tamil, at least, don’t seem to list visarga even though they have a partial adoption of Samskruth model. (from early times to  at least till 14th century).

 

     About the equivalence mapping of visarga' in Samskruth to the IPA - Roman alphabet set/ Arabic,  more studies may be needed.

     This stduy needs to cover what happens when the visarga is unified with vyanjana -equivalent units.

 

4.  The  relevance of connecting this discussion to   1954-Pune- Linguistics project (file attached) :  The project, as per the author Hartmut Scharfe - observation made in the year 1977 ( 23 years after commencement of project) - ushered in a different factoring , called  ' Bloomfield and  Chomskian linguistics'. According to Hartmut Scharfe, this  lead to neglect of the historical -literary implications and abandoning the  indian concpets  in samskruth studies. What are the shifts in understanding indian langauge-study resources due to this shift ? The partners in this study and  implementation of outcome  seems to have percolated deep down to the designs of language teaching at schools of india.

 

Is there any follow up study on the outcome and impact of the project ? - is the question.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[Irene Galstian]

I wasn't sure on which thread to post my question, but this one seems closer in spirit. 

Could someone please help me locate what exactly what stated and in which book about how visarga should be pronounced? I'm interested in this from kriya yoga standpoint and would be grateful for the references, since I'd need to find them and study the exact wording of these instructions.

Thank you,

Irene

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Irene-ji

There are different valid traditions on how to pronounce the visarga. The most prominent is the one supported by the taittirIya prAtishAkhya, followed by Tamil, Andhra and Karnataka paNDita-s:

1. कण्ठस्थानौ हकारविसर्जनीयौ 2.46

2. उदयस्वरादिसस्थानो  हकार एकेषाम्  2.47

3. पूर्वान्तसस्थानो विसर्जनीयः 2.48

The sUtras to be noted are the first and third. So hariH would be something like harihi, but not exactly. The subtleties are to be learned only guru-mukha, from at least a kramAnta-svAdhyAyin and no amount of book analysis can get the correct information.

Ramakrishnan

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear BVK Sastry,

     Being born and educated in Pune in its various institutions, I can say that the establishment of the Dept of Linguistics at the Deccan College had no negative impact on the study of Sanskrit and Sanskrit grammar in DC and Pune at large.  The DC itself had a separate dept of Sanskrit and Sanskrit Dictionary.  Prof. Katre who directed the DC himself published many volumes on Pāṇini, and the publications of the DC include dozens of Kośas, editions and translations of the Vākyapadīya, Prauḍhamanoramā with two commentaries, and much more.  The University of Pune had a separate dept of Sanskrit and the Centre for Advanced Study in Sanskrit, where Prof.  S.D. Joshi published more than a dozen Āhnikas of the Mahābhāṣya with TR, worked all his life on the TR of the Aṣṭādhyāyī.  His colleagues at the CASS included grammarians like Professor Palsule and Devasthali, who published many works on Sanskrit grammar.  It was the Bhandarkar Institute in Pune that published the Mahābhāṣya Dīpikā of Bhartr̥hari, its texts and translations.  And the monumental work on the Critical Edition of the Mahābhārata that took 40+ years.  At the Tilak Maharashtra Vidyapith, great scholars like Pt. Vaman Shastri Bhagavat not only taught Pāṇini, he left behind a 1500 hours of recordings of his teaching Pāṇini.

     I am writing all this, which is familiar to most Sanskrit scholars, not to leave an impression that the opening of the dept of Linguistics at the DC had some negative impact on the study of Sanskrit and Sanskrit grammar in Pune.

     With best regards,

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[Irene Galstian]

Ramakrishnan-ji,

Thank you for these. 

I agree with you 100%. But since I only know how to repeat exactly how my teacher taught, it's interesting to find out what the books say.

Irene

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Ramakrishnan,

     However, please note that according to all Prātiśākhyas and Śikṣās, including the Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya, while the Visarga is abhoṣa "voiceless", the pronunciation of ह is ghoṣavat "voiced."  Even though the Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya describes the Visarga  as पूर्वान्तसस्थानो विसर्जनीयः 2.48, it still remains aghoṣa. The Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya 1.12 (ऊष्मविसर्जनीयप्रथमद्वितीया अघोषा:) clearly says that the Visarjanīya is aghoṣa, while the very next sūtra says that ह is not (न हकार:), with the commentary explaining: न भवति अघोषसंज्ञो हकार:. It is the aghoṣa pronunciation of the Visarga that has not survived.  Best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Ramakrishnan,

     However, please note that according to all Prātiśākhyas and Śikṣās, including the Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya, while the Visarga is aghoṣa "voiceless", the pronunciation of ह is ghoṣavat "voiced."  Even though the Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya describes the Visarga  as पूर्वान्तसस्थानो विसर्जनीयः 2.48, it still remains aghoṣa. The Taittirīya-Prātiśākhya 1.12 (ऊष्मविसर्जनीयप्रथमद्वितीया अघोषा:) clearly says that the Visarjanīya is aghoṣa, while the very next sūtra says that ह is not (न हकार:), with the commentary explaining: न भवति अघोषसंज्ञो हकार:. It is the aghoṣa pronunciation of the Visarga that has not survived.  Best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

The ह in हयवरट् in the Mahesh war Sutras is a consonant as it can be suffixed and prefixed to any of the अच् vowels.  This ह is alveolar.

  

   'In Yoga-akshara perspective Visarga is ardhaakshara ( which may  be constrcuted as half svara  or half vyanjana !)' - BVK Sastry.

In contrast the the ह in हल् is not a consonant as it cannot be suffixed or prefixed with any of the अच् vowels. This ह in the Maheshwar Sutras is कंठ्य.

According to Patanjali Sutras are to be considered Vedas.

The barakhadi sutras for हण् letters of Maheshwar Sutras can be compiled as 

रलहयवत्

रिलिहिवित्

रुलुहुयुत्

रीलीहीवीत्

रूलूहूयूत् 

रेलेहेयेवेत्  and so on

However for the शल् letters the barakhadi can be compiled as 

सःशषत्

सिःशिषित्

सुःशुषुत्

सीःशीषीत्

सूःशूषूत्

सेःशेषेत्।  and so on

Note that in the above sutras the visarga (ह in हल्) does not become दीर्घ when recited with दीर्घ swara of सश and ष.  This proves the point raised by Sastryji that the visarga can be called ardha akshara or either as ardhaswara or ardha vyanjana. It can neither be suffixed or prefixed with an अच् vowel to be called a consonant nor can it be prefixed or suffixed to a consonant to be called a swara.  It is therefore a stand alone letter coming at the end of a pada.

This in my view is how shiksha needs to be re-thought for Sanskrit studies both in schools as well as in pathshalas.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

How to check whether a particular articulation is ghosha or aghosha?  What is the test?  Is there any available reference in the shiksha or pratishakhya texts to the effect?

Achyut Karve.

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[Achyut Karve]

Aghosha needs to be reconciled with अदर्शनम् लोपः as well as how aghosha is different from silent letters as in English.

Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Achyut-ji,

Do you want to know which of the consonants in the Sanskrit varnamaala are considered voiced which voiceless ? 

In each of  the five vargas कवर्ग = क , ख, ग, घ, ङ  चवर्ग , टवर्ग , तवर्ग , पवर्ग 

first क, च, ट, त, प are voiceless and the third ग, ज, ड, द, ब are voiced. 

test ? If you touch the throat (bend of front neck connecting neck to chin) while pronouncing the voiced , you experience vibration which you don't experience while pronouncing voiceless. 

If you close your ears and hear your own pronunciation of the voiced , you feel the resonance/ vibration that you don't experience while you hear your own pronunciation of the voiceless. The feel for the voiceless resembles the sound on the central part of the tabla or duggi, the one for the voiced resembles the sound on the  loose part towards the rim.  

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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre , Indic Academy

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.

Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies, 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education, 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

 

 

 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Thanks, Nagaraj Ji, for providing a simple explanation of अघोष and घोष. According to the Prātiśākhyas, the description is at two levels, one appears to be the articulatory process and the other the auditory effect.  When the vocal chords close up, the air passing through them causes vibration (nāda), while if they are open, the air passes without causing a vibration, and this is called breath (śvāsa).  In the pronunciation of h (not Visarga), some Prātiśākhyas describe that the vocal chords are partially closed (madhye hakāraḥ), and so it produces something described in modern articulatory phonetics as "breathy voice."  Further, these distinctions produce different auditory effects.  We are told that nāda or vibration produces vowels and voiced consonants (nādaḥ svara-ghoṣavatsu), while breath without vibration leads to voiceless consonants (śvāso'ghoṣeṣu). In the terminology of the Siddhānta-Kaumudī, these features (śvāsa, nāda, ghoṣa, aghoṣa) are called bāhya-prayatna in the sense that their origin lies in the positioning of the vocal chords, and they are seen as being outside the mouth.  Positioning of the points of articulation and the articulators (sthāna, prayatna) are seen as ābhyantara-prayatna.  However, this distinction is not known to the earlier texts, and the description in the earlier texts is far more elaborate. With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Irene Galstian]

Dear Professor Deshpande,

Could you please list the earlier texts that contain the elaborate descriptions you’ve mentioned? I’d love to find and study them.

Best wishes,
Irene

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Irene,

     The main texts that discuss the process of pronunciation in detail are the Prātiśākhyas, including the R̥gveda-Prātiśākhya, Śukla-Yajurveda-Prātiśākhya (=Vāsajaneyi-Prātiśākhya), Taittirīya Prātiśākhya, Śaunakīya Caturādhyāyika and the R̥ktantra.  General scholarly opinion is that all available Śikṣās are later than the Prātiśākhyas.  A summary description of the phonetics discussed in these texts can be found conveniently in W.S. Allen's book Phonetics in Ancient India.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Irene Galstian]

Thank you, Professor Deshpande, I'll try to find these.

Irene

On Sunday, May 10, 2020 at 3:55:07 PM UTC+1, Madhav Deshpande wrote:

Dear Irene,

     The main texts that discuss the process of pronunciation in detail are the Prātiśākhyas, including the R̥gveda-Prātiśākhya, Śukla-Yajurveda-Prātiśākhya (=Vāsajaneyi-Prātiśākhya), Taittirīya Prātiśākhya, Śaunakīya Caturādhyāyika and the R̥ktantra.  General scholarly opinion is that all available Śikṣās are later than the Prātiśākhyas.  A summary description of the phonetics discussed in these texts can be found conveniently in W.S. Allen's book Phonetics in Ancient India.  

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 7:46 AM Irene Galstian <gnos...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Professor Deshpande,

Could you please list the earlier texts that contain the elaborate descriptions you’ve mentioned? I’d love to find and study them.

Best wishes,
Irene

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[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste Deshpande ji

 

Please excuse me for pushng the same issue once again.

 

1. I have full respect for the great work done at Deccan College and illustrious scholars mentioned by you. That is at the high end of schoalrship, the ivory tower of research.  

 

2.  I seek your specific views on the observations made by the author  mentioned at point 4 below :   summarized by  me as  <  The  relevance of connecting this discussion to   1954-Pune- Linguistics project (file attached) :  The project, as per the author Hartmut Scharfe - observation made in the year 1977 ( 23 years after commencement of project) - ushered in a different factoring , called  ' Bloomfield and  Chomskian linguistics'. According to Hartmut Scharfe, this  lead to neglect of the historical -literary implications and abandoning the  indian concpets  in samskruth studies. What are the shifts in understanding indian langauge-study resources due to this shift ? The partners in this study and  implementation of outcome  seems to have percolated deep down to the designs of language teaching at schools of india.    Is there any follow up study on the outcome and impact of the project ? - is the question. >

3. Reason for pushing the same issue for a second time is the diversity of views that have emerged on the articulation of 'Visarga' and  pushing back the issue to standards by  Shikshaa and Pratishaakhya.

The ground reality stands at the schools, in langauge teaching :

Samskruth as well as Brahmi language families teach barakhadi as a common base to learn langauges;   The pronunciain of Visarga, anuswara, 'ha' - are part of this teaching. 

It is a ground reality that regional language barakadi influence  runs strongly on Samskruth teaching in first learnng of Samskruth.. Example: The same barakadi  teaching in Karnataka , Andhra, bengal, Maharashtra,  Gujrat  and Kerala- does not carry the same standard pattern. (Certainly NOT the vedic standard pattern).

The regional langauge influence makes a clear show in conversation. So does the anglicised scripting and pronunciation, causing a deviant understanding of Paninian sutras.

In simple words, svara-Vyanjana are non translatables; and pushng the 'vowel-Consonant model ' of european langauge brings in a differential gap in understanding ' phonation'.

The 'abhyantara and bahya-prayatna models need a different perspective to  explain  'Maheswara Sutras ' from shikshaa ,  Pratishakhya and Yoga  perspective, as  needed for Chandas and Bhashaa.

This work, if it has been done by any earlier scholar, please help me with a reference. Siddhanta Kaumudi draws reference to this, but does not offer total explanation.  

This is 'Antra-yoga' part of ' Yoga Samskrutham', where the Shikshaa sutra, anchoring ' Varna-Maalaa' to individuals  consciousness and internal effort makes sense'. 

This teaching model is unique to  'vedanga -Shaddanga- Vyakarana- linguistics perspective', clearly distinct from the Social language usage model linguisitcs of eurpoean langauges.  

This teaching is used in Abhinava Guptas teachings to explain practice of  shiva sutras  as ' Mantra -saadhanaa'  ( one of the  upaayas).

4.   Why and how neglecting this issue causes a problem at  a later time, especially  in teaching Samskruth grammar  ?  

 

      Think of challenges in  explaining the two words :   सः (he)   -  सह  ( together)  to a beginner - learner for clarity on ' ह' and    विसर्ग  usage.

       If the teaching in the initial stage gets bad, it will reflect later in interpreting the Paninian sutras :

       आदिरन्त्येन सहेता (१-१-७१)  , सह सुपा । (२-१-४)-  तेन सहेति तुल्ययोगे ।(२-२-२८)  विनञ्भ्यां नानाञौ नसह ।(५-२-२७) 

       As well as importance of  explaining  Paninian use of visarga to understand  the sutras कुप्वोः XकXपौ च । (8-3-37) invoking technicality of 'ardha-visarga sadrushau:: half Visarga like…..

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[Radhakrishna Warrier]

Thank you Prof. Deshpande ji.  I ordered a copy of the book (W.S. Allen's book Phonetics in Ancient India) through Amazon.com.

Free download is available here: 

https://archive.org/details/in.gov.ignca.7855/page/n29/mode/2up

I prefer to read it in book form, so ordered it from Amazon.

Regards,

Radhakrishna Warrier

---

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com <bvpar...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Madhav Deshpande <mmd...@umich.edu>

Sent: Sunday, May 10, 2020 7:54 AM

To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad <bvpar...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} ' Visarga was completely lost in all Prakrits' and Samskruth articulation teaching

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear BVK Sastry Ji,

I think this discussion is now going completely off-track.  I do not agree with Professor Sharfe's opinion, given my personal life experience of studying in Pune with so many eminent scholars.  I have described the many institutions in Pune involved in the study and teaching of Sanskrit, and these have nothing to do with the department of linguistics at Deccan College.  Harping on "neglecting of Sanskrit studies," or not being familiar with traditional ways of teaching Sanskrit in Pune simply does not match the facts on the ground.  I will not continue this outstretched discussion any further.  There are members like Professor Saroja Bhate, an eminent senior grammarian from Pune and Professor Ashok Aklujkar who has spent a lifetime studying the Vākyapadīya, and it is frankly insulting to suggest that the Pune Sanskrists have been led astray by the opening of the department of linguistics at the Deccan College. I know you don't mean to insult anyone, but the points being repeatedly raised are going in that direction. The department of linguistics at the DC itself hardly did any work on Sanskrit, their main focus being on other Indian languages and modern linguistics.  Again, with best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. I am satisfied with your  input   < I do not agree with Professor Sharfe's opinion   >

 

2.  I have no interst or intention to    explorie the  implications  of Sharfes statement .   For me it is an  unproductive wild goose chase. 

 

If my post has gone astry and hurt any  one/ institution ,   my   apologies.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

From: bvpar...@googlegroups.com [mailto:bvpar...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Madhav Deshpande
Sent: Sunday, 10 May, 2020 11:14 PM
To: Bharatiya Vidvat parishad
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} ' Visarga was completely lost in all Prakrits' and Samskruth articulation teaching

 

Dear BVK Sastry Ji,

 

I think this discussion is now going completely off-track.  I do not agree with Professor Sharfe's opinion, given my personal life experience of studying in Pune with so many eminent scholars.  I have described the many institutions in Pune involved in the study and teaching of Sanskrit, and these have nothing to do with the department of linguistics at Deccan College.  Harping on "neglecting of Sanskrit studies," or not being familiar with traditional ways of teaching Sanskrit in Pune simply does not match the facts on the ground.  I will not continue this outstretched discussion any further.  There are members like Professor Saroja Bhate, an eminent senior grammarian from Pune and Professor Ashok Aklujkar who has spent a lifetime studying the Vākyapadīya, and it is frankly insulting to suggest that the Pune Sanskrists have been led astray by the opening of the department of linguistics at the Deccan College. I know you don't mean to insult anyone, but the points being repeatedly raised are going in that direction. The department of linguistics at the DC itself hardly did any work on Sanskrit, their main focus being on other Indian languages and modern linguistics.  Again, with best regards,

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Thanks a lot for your reply.

The technique of determining whether a consonant sound is ghosha or aghosha by keeping once finger on the voice box or Adam's apple and feeling the vibrations in the voice box or by closing one's ears and voicing the letters and feeling the vibrations in the voice box was quite enlightening.

However this is what I experienced.

While voicing the letters in the order of the Devanagari script letters viz.,  क, ख, ग, घ, ङ  the first two viz., could be identified as aghosha and the next three ghosha.  However this difference could not be experienced while reciting the Maheshwar Sutras.  All the हल् letters could be felt in the voice box and therefore all हल् letters are ghosha by Maheshwar Sutra standards.

This experience leads one to believe that the Devanagari script letter sequence was used to instruct letters during the evolution of the pratishakhyas and shikshas and not the Maheshwar Sutras.

Further this difference also shows that voicing or recitation of the Vedas did undergo change as scripting evolved.  In this context Patanjali's  remark that the Maheshwar Sutras are important so that  students pick up the correct pronunciation of the letters is significant.

I am very much grateful to all those who have participated in this thread to make me understand the sense carried by the words ghosha and aghosha.  It has helped me to enhance my commitment  to the Mahesh war Sutras as an instrument of instruction more than ever before.

With regards,

Achyut Karve.

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

Dear Prof. Deshpande

Here's my take, as a researcher in the prAtishAkhya-s and the shikShA-s, as well as a keen practitioner and teacher of the tattirIya shAkhA. You have pointed out the madhye hakAraH (TP 2.6) in one of your other emails. Apart from that the same text continues, nAdo.anupradAnaM svara-ghoShavatsu (2.8), hakAro ha-caturtheShu (2.9) and aghoSheShu shvAsaH (2.10). bhUyAnprathamebhyo.anyeShu. So the TP shows that there is a gradation in shvAsa, hakAra and nAda. 

When I say hariH it is quite different from harihi, though the latter mistake is made by many novices. Since the visarga happens at the end of a sentence (except before the conjunct kSh), there is an elongation after the breath sound (h) and that is indeed a vowel sound. Pronunciation at the end of a sentence is a little varied and traditional Vedic reciters have a particular way of elongating the final vowels/consonants, which are not covered by shikShA-s as far as I know. So to the people untrained in rigorous Vedic recitation, hariH Om may sound like harihi Om, while I can clearly hear and feel the difference. The difference of the visarga not being voiced is especially palpable to me if the preceding vowels are anything other than a/A, since the breath in the visarga takes place at a point other than the throat. The ha- or breathy sound can come with nAda (caturtheShu) or without nAda (dvitIyeShu) - actually technically only anupradAnam or greater proportion as I understand the sUtra-s. So there is already an example of breathy sound (h) without voicing in the second sparsha-s. Such is indeed the case with visarga and I can feel it. May be I am making a tempest in a teapot with the minutiae, or perhaps I am imagining too much - always a possibility, but I know what I can feel is happening. I do wonder if there are any actual palatograms of trained Vedic reciters with regard to the visarga. Allen in his phonetics book points out that Whitney was mocking traditional theories about the sibilants, while much later palatograms showed the traditional phoneticians had it right. Of course the palatograms have to be of extremely trained Vedic reciters and even among those there is some gradation. My current teacher, a kramAntasvAdhyAyI trained in the kumbhakoNam pAthashAlA of the Kanchi Matha, told me once about his late teacher "avar sonna vera maadiri irukkum aNNA" - "If he recites it would sound different". The difference being that at least in the olden days the teachers would not "sully" their learning by reciting or participating in rituals except on rare occasions. That would preserve the purity of the Vedic sound. Since the shikSA-s have a specific purpose - that of Vedic recitation - it makes sense only to look at trained Vedic reciters. When Sanskrit was a more widely spoken language, it's unlikely that everyone had the "BBC accent". The minutiae were likely observed in the Vedic setting. And that can be obtained only by going to the right sources.

Ramakrishnan

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Ramakrishnan,

     I very much appreciate your post.  We have now Vedic recordings being made available through multiple sources, but there are hardly any analytical studies of these recitations, beyond the early efforts by Staal and Howard.  When I was teaching at the University of Michigan at the Department of Linguistics (1972-1985), the department had a phonetics lab equipped with machines for palatograms etc.  Though I was never trained to use it, my two senior colleagues, namely Professor John Catford and Professor Kenneth Pike, were world renowned phoneticians, and on one occasion, Professor Catford recorded my Sanskrit pronunciation, including the first hymn of the R̥gveda, and used these recordings for his phonetics classes.  It has been too many years since then, and I have no idea as to what is happening to the phonetics lab at the moment.  I am no longer physically in the same town any longer.  In any case, it would be a great contribution to Sanskrit studies, if an institution like the Rashtriya Sanskrit Sansthan would undertake a project in collaboration with departments of linguistics in India to analytically study the pronunciation of Sanskrit and Vedic reciters in the various regions of India.  I have seen some studies like this for modern languages, but I have not seen any for Sanskrit.  With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

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[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Ramakrishnan,

     Somehow, I hit the "send" button before finishing what I wanted to say.  Just one point.  Just as there was a Linguistic Survey of India under the editorship of Grierson more than a hundred years ago, I wish there could be a Linguistic Survey of Sanskrit Traditions, including Vedic Recitation, across India.  My hearsay understanding is that there was a more recent government sponsored linguistic survey of India, but for some political reasons, it was shut down.  But such wide ranging surveys are necessary to have an objective understanding of the variation in Sanskrit pronunciation and usage in various regions of India.  Otherwise, our focus tends to be mostly textual and normative.  Anyway, these are just my hopes for the future studies.  With best regards,

Madhav M. Deshpande

Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics

University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA

Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]