query on Sannyasa and symbol worship forwarded

[Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj]

Respected Scholars,

Harih Om. These are the questions put forward by a professor of Geneva University. I need scholars help in this.

1. In Uddhava Gita, and other scriptures, when they speak of vanaprastha to sannyasin, they say that the Sannyasin renounces everything and goes away.
Now the question (put by a professor of Geneva University who comes here) is, "if the man becomes a sannysain, what happens to the woman, his wife, who has become vanaprasthin like him in the forest? Will she go back to the world, or become sannyasin?"


2. In the Brahma Sutra (4.3.15 and 4.3.16). it is expressly stated that, those who meditate on symbols will not go to Brahma loka.
Now, What symbols are meant here? Omkara?. Image of God?
If those who meditate on symbols dont go to Brahma loka, then how can Krishna and others teach meditation on symbols?

Please give scriptural references to your answers is the request of that scholar.


नारायणस्मृतिः

स्वामी करुणाकरानन्दपुरी

[Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj]

Harih Om,

Thanks for the answer Sri Subrahmanyam Koradaji. One more question with regard to this is;

1. If the husband renouncing his wife who would till then was with him, goes away somewhere else taking Sannyasa how the wife maintains her livelihood (as he has entrusted everything to his children and gone to forest along with his wife)? Will she be able to stay alone in the forest and continue till death a Vanaprasthi if she does not want to take Sannyasa? Or could she go back to her children into the society once again? Is such reverting back from Vanaprastha is permitted in the system? Is the remarriage stated by Parashara Smriti as quoted by you apply to wife in the Vanaprastha stage or Grihastha stage?

2. In the answer regarding Pratikopasana- what about 'Ahamgrahopasana' and 'Omkaropasana'. I feel those who do them will attain Parabrahman itself. Ofcourse, needless to add that even these have to be undertaken in 'Nishkama' way to attain Brahman. Am I right?

Narayana Smritih

Swami Karunakarananda Puri

2013/6/20 Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj <swamikarun...@gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: subrahmanyam korada <kora...@gmail.com>
Date: 2013/6/20
Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} query on Sannyasa and symbol worship forwarded
To: swamikarun...@gmail.com


नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

Professor from Geneva Uni  and  Vidvan Swamiji ---

1."if the man becomes a sannysain, what happens to the woman, his wife, who has become vanaprasthin like him in the forest? Will she go back to the world, or become sannyasin?"

वानप्रस्थम्  --  सन्न्यासः

It is up to the  wife in question to decide --

there are four पुरुषार्थs - धर्म , अर्थ , काम and मोक्ष ।

The first three involve both wife and husband - so the प्रतिज्ञा by groom during विवाह - धर्मे च अर्थे च कामे च नातिचरामि ( I do not cross her in terms of dharma artha and kama).

दम्पत्योः सहाधिकारात् (wife and husband have got the equal rights - मीमांसा - अध्याय 6) - this norm applies to the above trio only and that too as long as the conjugal relation continues

Of late I observed some Purohitas adding मोक्ष to the list and it is due to lack of knowledge / understanding of the real tradition.

मोक्ष is individual - if either has got the desire to renounce s/he is free - कामचारः

In case the husband embraced सन्न्यस then the woman has got the right to remarriage --

नष्टे मृते प्रव्रजिते क्लीबे च पतिते पतौ ।

पञ्चस्वापत्सु नारीणां पतिरन्यो विधीयते ॥ पराशरस्मृतिः 4-30

if a lady faces any one of the five troubles she can go for another marriage --

1. नष्टः - lost due to mental disorder or महाकालसर्पयोग ( if all the other planets in the horoscope fall between राहु and केतु and लग्न is out of this line up then the native would go missing)

2.मृतः - dead

3.प्रव्रजितः - taken सन्न्यास

4.क्लीबः - impotent

5.पतितः - भ्रष्टः - one who gives up his धर्म

Ladies are eligible to take सन्न्यास - see सुलभा - जनक वृत्तान्त in शान्तिपर्व of महाभारत । सुलभा was a भिक्षुकी (sannyAsin)

In fact , there is no any hard and fast rule that a person with a desire in मोक्ष has to behave like this --

न हि एतच्छास्त्रेण केनचित् प्रतिपादितं मोक्षार्थी इत्थं समाचरेत् इति (शांकरभाष्यम् - कार्याधिकरणम् - 4-3-14)

There is no any शास्त्रम् which prescribes that a सन्न्यासी should do like this .

So , the popular belief that the husband should take permission of wife to take सन्न्यास is not authoritative , it may be a convention .

A couple of Paninisutras relevant here --

1.षष्ठी चानादरे (2-3-38) - there will be possessive case also if 'disaffection' is there - he took सन्न्यास while the children , wife etc. were weeping .

2.पाराशर्यशिलालिभ्यां भिक्षुनटसूत्रयोः(4-3-110) - there was a भिक्षुसूत्रम् by पाराशर्य ।

3.मस्करमस्करिणौ वेणुपरिव्राजकयोः (6-1-149) - मस्करी means परिव्राजक -- " मा कुरु कर्माणि मा कुरु कर्माणि इति य आह सः मस्करी" (महाभाष्यम्)

परिव्राजक is one who propegates - do not do karmas ...

A सन्न्यासी has to perform नित्यकर्मs like सन्ध्यावन्दनम् and नैमित्तिककर्मs like आब्दिकम् (death ceremony) but can give up काम्यकर्मs -

’काम्यानां कर्मणां त्यागं सन्न्यासं कवयो विदुः’ (भगवद्गीता -18-2)

So he may prefer to stay home .

A सन्न्यासी need not necessarily go out of his house .

For that matter according to Veda the विवाहसंस्कार is not only to get rid of the पितॄणम् ( paternal debt) but also for generating विविदिषा ( ब्रह्म वेत्तुम् इच्छा - a desire to know Brahman , ie to achieve मोक्ष)

2. In the Brahma Sutra (4.3.15 and 4.3.16). it is expressly stated that, those who meditate on symbols will not go to Brahma loka. 
Now, What symbols are meant here? Omkara?. Image of God? 
If those who meditate on symbols dont go to Brahma loka, then how can Krishna and others teach meditation on symbols? 

अप्रतीकालंबनाधिकरणम् (ब्रह्मसूत्रशांकरभाष्यम् 4-3-15,16)

15.अप्रतीकालंबनान्नयतीति बादरायणः , उभयथा अदोषात् तत्क्रतुश्च

This 3rd leg of 4th Adhyaya discusses सगुणब्रह्मोपासना --

This has reference to some प्रतीकs enumerated in छान्दोग्योपनिषत् (7-1-4 to 7-14-2) |

The following are called प्रतीकs --

नाम , वाक् , मनस् , संकल्पः , चित्तम् , ध्यानम् , विज्ञानम् , बलम् ,अन्नम् , आपः , तेजः , आकाशः , स्मरः(स्मरणम् इत्यर्थः , स्मृ पचाद्यच् , not Cupid) and आशा ।

Among the listed things the latter is described as better / sronger than the former .

Following तत्क्रतुन्याय the प्रतीकोपासकs would reach कार्यब्रह्म and not परं ब्रह्म --

तं यथा यथा  उपासते तदेव भवति (श्रुतिः) - the उपासक would get a thing similar to the उपास्य ,ie प्रतीक ।

(this may be the origin of यद्भावः तद्भवति)

The term क्रतु is commented as उपासना (ब्रह्मामृतवर्षिणी) , as संकल्प (दीपिका) etc.

I rather feel that it is बुद्धि - ’ यः क्रतुः शब्दसंज्ञकः’ - वाक्यपदीयम् , बह्मकाण्डः)

If one does उपासना with ब्रह्मक्रतु , then he would get ब्रह्म , ie ब्रह्मप्राप्ति ।

Here since नाम etc  are taken in the place of ब्रह्मन् and not ब्रह्मन्  per se , they cannot get ब्रह्मन् following तत्क्रतुन्याय । 

There is an exception - पञ्चाग्निविद्या -- ’ये चामी अरण्ये श्रद्धां सत्यम् उपासते ......’ ( बृहदारण्यकोपनिषत् 6-12-15) - since it is specifically mentioned people who do उपासना of पञ्चाग्निविद्या will go to परं ब्रह्म ।

सगुणब्रह्मोपासना was preached by Srikrshna etc because it is the beginning and after achieving चित्तशुद्धि (cleansing of mind) one may go for निर्गुणब्रह्मोपासना ।

16.विशेषं च दर्शयति 

Brhaman is one and only one , ie there shall not be any comparison - here the प्रतीकs are described as - better than the former etc. - वाग्वाव नाम्नो भूयसी (छां 7-2-1) - वाक् is better than नाम ।

So due to this reason also प्रतीकोपासकs cannot reach परब्रह्मन् - is the सिद्धान्त ।

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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--
Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)

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Karunakarananda

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Karunakarananda

[Shankarji Jha]

Regarding Vaanaprastha, there is a rule (Vide Manusmriti etc.) that the wife should be entrusted to the Children or be taken along in the forest. Likewise, even for Sannyaasa, there is some rule that  only after settling all matters ---maintenance of wife etc. one is entitled to take Sannyaasa. Ignoring the rules of the Shaastras, one can do whatever he wants. Ther are several injunctions for Sannyaasins. Yatinam Yaana-gaaminam etc. Do the modern Sannyaasins follow them? With regards,

Shankarji Jha,
Professor of Sanskrit,
Deptt of Sanskrit,
Panjab University,
Chandigarh-160014, INDIA

---

Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2013 20:41:33 +0530

Subject: Re: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} query on Sannyasa and symbol worship forwarded

From: swamikarun...@gmail.com
To: kora...@gmail.com; bvpar...@googlegroups.com

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

We can take the case of Adi Shankara. He had to take the permission from his mother to become a sannyashi. Even then he had to return to his mother for the express purpose of being with her during her last moment  and for performing her cremation and the last ritesn. So also a modern man  taking up Sanyasha has to take the approval of his wife before leaving her. According to Manu, in the absence of the husband, a woman is to be looked after by her son. Thus it is possible for a man to leave his wife provided she has son to look after her.  If she has no son (noor any brother willling to take her responsibilty)  her husband cannot desert her.

Regards,

Sunil KB

[V Subrahmanian]

In the Bh.GitA bhAShya Shankara says: //for some reason a householder-jnAni is not able to renounce and take to sannyAsa he will continue to be in the same station and perform his station-ordained duties with the akartR bhAvana....//

I think the case on hand could be solved that way.  There are no sons/daughters for the wife to be left with and there are no ashrama-s/homes to take care of such women, then the man will continue as a householder with no attachment and pursue his vedanta study/sadhana.  After all, the norm for such sAdhana has been said to be:

brahmAbhyAsa is to keep thinking, talking, conversing, and mutually appraising and exchanging notes about the 'Para Brhmam' with each other, “तच्चिन्तनं तत्कथनमन्योन्यं तत्प्रभोधनम् | एतदेकपरत्वं च ब्र्ह्माभ्यासं विदुर्बुधा: ||” (Panchadasi – VII.106 and repeated again at XIII.83.) ... This verse is also in the LaghuvAkya vRtti, YougavAsiShTha, etc.

The above can be done in any Ashrama provided the person is inclined to it.

regards
subrahmanian.v
   

2013/6/23 sunil bhattacharjya <skbhatt...@gmail.com>

Namaste,

Vanaprastha is only for the Brahmanas and the Kshatriyas. Pandu died in Vana and Kunti came back. In case of Gandhari, she accompanied Dhritarashtra and both died when there was a forest-fire. These precedents can guide one. However that was in the fagend of the Dwapara yuga. In the Kali yuga the rules were further relaxed and it appears that the returned wife should be able to remarry.

Regards,

Sunil KB

2013/6/21 subrahmanyam korada <kora...@gmail.com>

नमो विद्वद्भ्यः

विद्वान् स्वामीजी

1. If the husband renouncing his wife who would till then was with him, goes away somewhere else taking Sannyasa how the wife maintains her livelihood (as he has entrusted everything to his children and gone to forest along with his wife)? Will she be able to stay alone in the forest and continue till death a Vanaprasthi if she does not want to take Sannyasa? Or could she go back to her children into the society once again? Is such reverting back from Vanaprastha is permitted in the system? Is the remarriage stated by Parashara Smriti as quoted by you apply to wife in the Vanaprastha stage or Grihastha stage? ----

It is not mandatory for the wife to follow her husband , when the latter embraces वानप्रस्थम् | It is optional for such पुरुष to entrust his wife to children of take her along --

संत्यज्य ग्राम्यमाहारं सर्वं चैव परिच्छदम् ।

पुत्रेषु भार्यां निक्षिप्य वनं गच्छेत् सहैव वा ॥ (भृगु :- मनुस्मृतिः 6-3)

ग्राम्यम् आहारम् = rice , wheat etc.; परिच्छदम् = bed ,vehicle etc.

Earlier (6-1 & 2) , भृगु  prescribes वानप्रस्थम् to पुरुष only --

एवं गृहाश्रमे स्थित्वा विधिवत्स्नातको द्विजः।

वने वसेत् यथावद्विजितेन्द्रियः ॥

गृहस्थस्तु यदा पश्येद्वलीपलितमात्मनः।

अपत्यस्यैव चापत्यं तदारण्यं समाश्रयेत् ॥

वलीपलितम् = wrinkles and grey hair , अपत्यस्य च अपत्यम् = grand children

Protection for a woman thruout  her  life is mandatory --

पिता रक्षति कौमारे भर्ता रक्षति यौवने ।

रक्षन्ति स्थाविरे पुत्रा न स्त्री स्वातन्त्र्यमर्हति ॥ (मनु 9-3)

It can be बाल्यम् (1-5yrs) , कौमारम् (6-15) , यौवनम् (16-50) and वार्धक्यम्(51- 120)

or

कौमारम् (1-15) , यौवनम्(16-50) and वार्धक्यम् (51-120)

स्वातन्त्र्यम् ( ब्राह्मणादित्वात् भावे  कर्मणि वा ष्यञ्) --- 

स्वं = आत्मा (आत्मनि स्वम् - अमरः), तन्त्रम् = प्रधानम् (तन्त्रं प्रधाने सिद्धान्ते - विश्वः)

स्वातन्त्र्यम् = living without protection (प्रकरणात् )

शैशवे’भ्यस्तविद्यानां यौवने विषयैषिणाम् ।

वार्धके मुनिवृत्तीनां योगेनान्ते तनुत्यजाम् ॥(रघु.)

Beyond that the King / Ruler is directly responsible --

चातुर्वर्ण्यं च धर्माश्च रक्षितव्यास्समीक्षिताः ।

धर्मसंकररक्षा च राज्ञां धर्मस्सनातनः ॥ (भारतम्)

सनातनः = नित्यः

Since there is no वानप्रस्थम् for ladies the question of reverting back does not arise ,

In other words , following the norm  ’ अविहिते कामचारः’ ( free hand in cases where nothing is stated by शास्त्रम्) .

पुनर्विवाहः --

it depends on the age etc.

Let us see what कोक्कोकम् (कामशास्त्रम् ) says --

भोजनम् द्विगुणम् स्त्रीणां काममष्टगुणम् स्मृतम् ।

तारुण्यं पञ्चपञ्चाशतावधि परतो वृद्धतामेति नारी ।

(तारुण्यं यौवनं समे - अमरः)

आलिङ्गनं लम्बपयोधराणां स्त्रीणां च दुःखं त्रयमेव भूमौ ।

’तदपि च न कृतं नितम्बिनीनां स्तनपतनावधि जीवितं रतं वा’ ( शृङ्गारशतकम् 27)

2. In the answer regarding Pratikopasana- what about 'Ahamgrahopasana' and 'Omkaropasana'. I feel those who do them will attain Parabrahman itself. Ofcourse, needless to add that even these have to be undertaken in 'Nishkama' way to attain Brahman. Am I right?

-------

Yes , you are right . They are non- different from ब्रह्मन् , ie not प्रतीकs.

'अहं ब्रह्मास्मि’ - is a महावाक्यम् wherein अभेद between अहम् and ब्रह्मन् is  विवक्शित --

just like - वृद्धिः आदैच् (पा 1-1-1) , अमरा निर्जरा देवाः (कोशः) etc

Same is the case with ओमित्येकाक्षरं ब्रह्म -- ओम् = ब्रह्म

In भेदविवक्षा it will be तस्य वाचकः प्रणवः(योगसू)

नैष्कर्म्यम् , everywhere , is the base . 

Even while performing काम्यकर्मs one may say(at the end) श्रीकृष्णार्पणमस्तु and such कर्मs will be for चित्तशुद्धि ।

धन्यो’स्मि

[Swami Karunakarananda Maharaj]

Harih Om,

I thank very much all the Vidwans here, who had suggested various answers to my two queries. Special thanks to Sri Subrahmanyam Koradaji for putting before me references from various Shastras.

Narayana Smaranam

Swami Karunakarananda Puri

2013/6/23 V Subrahmanian <v.subra...@gmail.com>

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Karunakarananda