Looking for materials on "yajna"

[Krishna Kashyap]

I was teaching 3rd chapter Gita: Verse: yajnAt bhavati parjanyaha.

 - meaning "yajna" caises rains. Thanks to Prof Kannan's small paper on Yajna. that was very useful.

I was reading different vyakhyanas on this, stating a verse from : 'The oblations offered in fire reach the sun, and from the sun comes rain' (Manu, 3.76),  

Then come the questions: did it rain before human beings were created? if so how.

Somehow, this chakra or cycle, is interpreted in different ways and nothing seems complete and clear.

Some state (abhinava gupta) that Yajna is much deeper than this. Yajna is process of experience. Sense objects are offerings to Indriyas, which are Devathas. Parjanya in this commentary is taken to be the experiencer.

Some explain yajna as community work or in a way selfless work. Even though how can work cause rains? this is still a question.

I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is convincing to present day generation. in general and in particular to the chakra : annat bhavanti bhutani. I am l checking all the available commentaries on Gita.

If there is a thorough assessment of Yajna, it would be useful.

In wikipedia, However, connecting yajna as it is given in earlier texts such as:In the Upanishadic times, or after 500 BCE, states Sikora, the meaning of the term Yajna evolved from "ritual sacrifice" performed around fires by priests, to any "personal attitude and action or knowledge" that required devotion and dedication.^[6] The oldest Vedic Upanishads, such as the Chandogya Upanishad (~700 BCE) in Chapter 8, for example state,^[13]

अथ यद्यज्ञ इत्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव
 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येव यो ज्ञाता तं 
विन्दतेऽथ यदिष्टमित्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव
 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येवेष्ट्वात्मानमनुविन्दते ॥ १ ॥

What is commonly called Yajna is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge,
  for only through the chaste life of a student does he who is a knower find that,
What is commonly called Istam (sacrificial offering) is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge, 
  for only having searched with chaste life of a student does one find Atman (Soul, Self) || 1 ||

— Chandogya Upanishad 8.5.1 ^[13][14]

No matter what the commentary is, a clear understanding regarding how devathas shower rain when pleased by yajna, has to be clearly explained. If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive?

In some commentaries, the next verse evam pravarthitam chakram nanuvartyati cha yah..... which indicates a cycle, is not very clear.

The explanation of cycle is not coherent.

OR it may be stated that devatas showering rains, due to yajnas cannot be understood scientifically or logically. just trust in vedas.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

sarvam sri krishnarpanam astu

asmad gurubhyO namah

[Krishna Kashyap]

Please note there is an error"

 If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive? 

should be :

if reptiles were created prior to human beings, how did they get water to survive, since they did not do any yajna (sacrifice).

 

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Krishna Kashyap-ji,

Sharing a document with the diagram I created to explain the cyclic view in 

अन्नाद्भवन्ति भूतानि पर्जन्यादन्नसम्भवः |

यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यो यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः ||३- १४||

कर्म ब्रह्मोद्भवं विद्धि ब्रह्माक्षरसमुद्भवम् |

तस्मात्सर्वगतं ब्रह्म नित्यं यज्ञे प्रतिष्ठितम् ||३- १५||

एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रं नानुवर्तयतीह यः |

अघायुरिन्द्रियारामो मोघं पार्थ स जीवति ||३- १६||

1. Do yajnas form clouds ? 

is one question

2. Are clouds formed only by yajnas? 

is another question. 

3. Are all activities/events leading to the formation of clouds called yajnas ? 

is yet another question. 

For question #1 above, answer is yes, Yajnas can form clouds. 

For #2 above, the answer is no, many other smoke generating activities can form clouds. 

Acid rains are result of a certain kind of cloud forming activities only. 

There were ash rains during gulf war. 

So yajnas are one of those which can form clouds. 

May be the idea is that yajnas form healthy clouds, that rain healthy stuff, unlike those activities which lead to acid rains. 

Or, we can say that yajnas generate anna generating, or fertilizing clouds. Or we can even say that if a cloud forming activity is not generate fertilizing clouds , it can not be called yajna. If a cloud forming activity leads to harmful consequences such as acid rains, it is the opposite of yajna. 

So to #3 above , the answer is , no, not all activities leading to the formation of clouds can be called yajnas. 

All actions are not karma here. Only those actions which form part of a cloud forming activity that can lead to fertilizing rains is karma here. 

That is why , in the 8th chapter, we have

भूतभावोद्भवकरो विसर्गः कर्मसंज्ञितः ॥ ८-३॥

karma that is Bramhodbhavam = Veda-motivated can only be भूतभावोद्भवकरो विसर्गः. 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Siddharth Wakankar]

Prof. Paturi,

Very enlightening exposition.

Thanks and congrats.

Pl. continue to make us richer by your novel ideas and varied expertise.

Best luck and warm regards.

Prof. Siddharth Y. Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sankara Bhashya for 

भूतभावोद्भवकरो विसर्गः कर्मसंज्ञितः ॥ ८-३॥ is as follows:

भूतभावोद्भवकरः भूतानां भावः भूतभावः तस्य उद्भवः भूतभावोद्भवः तं करोतीति भूतभावोद्भवकरः, भूतवस्तूत्पत्तिकर इत्यर्थः। विसर्गः विसर्जनं देवतोद्देशेन चरुपुरोडाशादेः द्रव्यस्य परित्यागः; स ष विसर्गलक्षणो यज्ञः कर्मसंज्ञितः कर्मशब्दित इत्येतत्। तस्मात् हि बीजभूतात् वृष्ट्यादिक्रमेण स्थावरजङ्गमानि भूतानि उद्भवन्ति।। 

 

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

The diagram of Shri. Paturi-ji is very good, especially since it brings forth that the sequence of activities mentioned in the गीता-श्लोक-s 3'14 and 3'15 are to be understood in the reverse order, i.e. starting from अक्षरम् and coming up to अन्नम्. 

I wonder, whether this also means that one should deliberate also in that order to see how the steps in the cycle get linked up. 

To start with अक्षरम्, it comes to mind that one finds some definition of अक्षरम् in the joint mention of क्षरम् and अक्षरम् in द्वाविमौ पुरुषौ लोके क्षरश्चाक्षर एव च | क्षरः सर्वाणि भूतानि कूटस्थोऽक्ष मुच्यते (गी. 15'16). Here one gets to understand that अक्षरः is कूटस्थः पुरुषः. If so, what is कूट ? It seems कूट and गूढ are synonymous. This synonimity prompts referring to धर्मस्य तत्त्वं निहितं गुहायाम्. I often wonder that there is some curious phonetic linkage among different धातु-s and words derived from them. कुह्, कूट्, गुह्, कुटिल, गूढ, The phonetic linkage also seems to lend an element of synonimity in their meanings. 

With this phonetic/etymological thought about धातु-s, if I should jump to the word अन्नम्, I would like to deliberate how अन्नम् means food. अन्न is past passive participle of अद्. Meaning of अद् is taken as food. Now, there is also a धातु अत् (सातत्यगमने) Considering the phonetic-etymological linkage between अद् and अत्, I may venture that both these have a common meaning of activation of energy. It is well-established that energies are latent also, apart from being active. If so, अन्नाद्भवन्ति भूतानि can also be interpreted to mean "a phenomenon emerges upon activation of energy." In atmosphere around there are hydrogen and oxygen, both independently also and also together as humidity. Only those atoms of hydrogen and oxygen would become vapor, which would have become charged particles, ions, and would hence get compounded. 

How does अन्नम् activation of energy itself happen ? पर्जन्यादन्नसंभवः. Activation of energy happens by पर्जन्य. I guess, the word पर्जन्य has its etymology from धातु पृज् / पृञ्ज् (पृजि ँ वर्णे) The word वर्णे can be interpreted to mean "to color", i.e  to coat i.e. to lend potential. The operating principle of electrolysis is to make atoms become charged particles, ions, which is the process of gaining and lending potential. 

How does पर्जन्य "gaining and lending potential" happen ? In electrolysis, gaining and lending potential happens when the anode and cathode are linked in an electric circuit. In electrolysis, setting up that electric circuit, inclusive of generating and providing electrical energy is यज्ञ. Process of electrolysis is यज्ञ. 

Then only यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः Electroplating is coating वर्णे which is पर्जन्यः. 

How beautifully कालिदास says in मेघदूतम् - धूमज्योतिःसलिलमरुतां सन्निपातः क्व मेघः | 

Since the यज्ञ in electrolysis would include generating and providing electrical energy, there are many activities involved there. Hence यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः The prefix सम् in the word समुद्भवः is also significant here ! 

In 18'13 and 18'14 पञ्चैतानि कारणानि are enumerated for सिद्धये सर्वकर्मणाम् for fulfillment of tasks. Among them is विविधाश्च पृथक्चेष्टाः which is कर्मसमुच्चयः Here what is mentioned as सिद्धये सर्वकर्मणाम्, rather कर्मसिद्धिः that itself is यज्ञः because यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः.

So, what cycle एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रम् is mentioned here is not just of कर्मसमुच्चयः => यज्ञः (the ritual of sacrifice) => पर्जन्यः (the rains) => अन्नसंभवः (the foods) => भूतानि (the beings), but, it is basically a game of energies and potentials. 

We are all obliged to participate in this game. Hence in ईशावास्योपनिषत् "इह कर्माणि कुर्वन्नेव, एवं त्वयि, इतः अन्यथा न अस्ति" 

In 3'16 also यः (इदं) एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रं न अनुवर्तयति, सः मोघं जीवति. means अमोघं जीवितुम् इदम् एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रम् अनुवर्तनीयम्.

Of course अनुवर्तनम् of this चक्रम् need not mean that one should cause rains to happen by performing the sacrifice rituals. Singers, singing the मेघमल्हार-राग ardently, are said to have caused rains to happen. That ardent singing, if and when it can cause rains to happen, is also यज्ञः, because there is so much a game of energies and potentials there. 

Participating in the game of energies and potentials is अनुवर्तनम् of the चक्रम्. 

Not doing so is इन्द्रियाणाम् आरामः (इन्द्रियारामः) that is keeping the organs lazy, inactive. That is also अघायुः (अघेन आयुः) spending one's life sinfully. 

The essence and moral of अनुवर्तनीयम् चक्रम् is सततं कार्यं कर्म समाचार (3'19) keep doing doable work, nonstop. That too असक्तः unattached. Doing doable work, unattached, keeping oneself active, being involved in the game of energies and potentials should hence be understood as यज्ञः. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

The question was - how is the description in these slokas a cycle ? 

The description is as follows: 

For this to be a cycle, one of the components in the chain should get connected  back to another one  in the chain. Such a connection here is forming between भूतानि and कर्म because it is भूतानि that perform कर्म . That is how the cycle 

is formed. 

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[Krishna Kashyap]

Dear Sri Nagaraj Paturi Ji,

Thanks a lot. I will take a deep look and may use your diagram for the class!

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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[G S S Murthy]

In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds?

Regards,

Murthy

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My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

[Venkata Sriram]

Here, shrI madhusudana saraswathi gives further explanation:

अत्र कर्मोपयोगमाह यज्ञात्कारीर्यादेरग्निहोत्रादेश्चापूर्वाख्यात् धर्माद्भवति पर्जन्यः

Reference is given to कारीरेष्टि.

rgs,

sriram

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[G S S Murthy]

Quoting an authority or a commentary is not what I am looking for. Just a commonsense cause-effect relationship.

Regards,

Murthy

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

I was teaching while this conversation was going on. 

Your question was

> In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds? <

Answer: Fire-rituals produce smoke and this smoke forms into clouds. 

That is a well known observation.

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[MVSSP AGNI]

Respected scholars,

      I feel all of you saw the Sanskrit movie Adi Shankaracharya (1983). In that movie while explaing to the question of veda vyasa mahamuni on the brahma sutra of sadhanadhyaya तदन्तर प्रतिपत्तौ the sage sankara explains the Chandaogya upanishad verse  असौवावलोको गौतमाग्निः -------------- वर्षस्संभवति ------------ यावदायुषं जीवति -- . I feel the procedure was explained there. 

In the following  link you may get the mantras along with the video of the movie.

https://youtu.be/BPeioteSOPU

Thank you. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

Your question was answered in a  greater detail  in a previous post in the present thread at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/6N4NpjuEolI/996zVvz5AgAJ

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[G S S Murthy]

Thanks, Prof.Nagarajji for the explanation. Smoke is a mix of vapours, gases and fine particles whereas cloud is mass of water droplets suspended in air.  Smoke does not cause cloud. 

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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[S. L. Abhyankar]

मूर्ति-महोदय !

"यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः"-इत्यस्य विवेचने मेघानां विचारः आगच्छति, यतः पर्जन्यः मेघेभ्यः प्राप्यते इति सामान्यः विचारः | 

पर्जन्य-शब्दः पृज्-धातुतः इति विचिन्त्य पृज्-धातुः किं सूचयति इति विचार्य मया "यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः"-इत्यस्य  अन्यत् विवेचनं प्रस्तुतम् | 

तत्र यज्ञेन मेघाः कथं भवन्ति इति आशङ्का नैव उत्पद्यते इति मे मतिः 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Thanks, Sri G S S murthy-ji for that response which certainly helps me  to make my expressions more accurate than earlier in connection with yajna -cloud relationship.

It is true that the composition of clouds is essentially water vapour or water in a cloudy state. 

This awareness is evident in Gita where it is said that it is the Sun that pulls the water up and releases it back. The Sun here is as evident from different expressions in the Vedas and Vedic texts, includes many effects of the Sun including atmospheric temperatures. 

 Thus smoke forms clouds is not an accurate expression.

But certain smokes lead to acid rains is a contemporary observation. Certain smokes cause healthy rains was an ancient belief. Whether it is accurate or not to say that acid rains are caused by 'bad' clouds, when  acid forming elements are included in the view of a 'cloud' , it sounds reasonable to think that acid rains come from a bad cloud. In the same way the cloud that is believed to be participating in fertilizing rains can be viewed as a healthy cloud.  If an acid rain causing smoke generating activity is viewed as a bad activity, activity that is believed to lead to fertilizing rain can be believed to be a good activity. Parjanyah is the cloud and the fertilizing good effect getting added to it put together. 

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[V Subrahmanian]

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 2:29 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Sri G S S murthy-ji for that response which certainly helps me  to make my expressions more accurate than earlier in connection with yajna -cloud relationship.

It is true that the composition of clouds is essentially water vapour or water in a cloudy state. 

This awareness is evident in Gita where it is said that it is the Sun that pulls the water up and releases it back. The Sun here is as evident from different expressions in the Vedas and Vedic texts, includes many effects of the Sun including atmospheric temperatures. 

We can show a yajna-cloud-rain connection from the famous belief that when Indra is propitiated by yajna-s, he blesses the yaajnika-s with rain. This was demonstrated in the Govardhana giri episode. The time-tested practice of propitiating Indra through the offerings was now changed at Krishna's instance, by offering them to the mountain and this brought furious rains from Indra. 

https://krishnabhumi.in/blog/the-story-of-shri-krishna-lifting-govardhan-hill/  

There is also this Manu smriti cited in the Shaankara Bhashya for the Bh.Gita 3.14:

अन्नाद्भवन्ति भूतानि पर्जन्यादन्नसम्भवः । 

यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यो यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः ॥ १४ ॥  

यज्ञात् भवति पर्जन्यः, ‘अग्नौ प्रास्ताहुतिःसम्यगादित्यमुपतिष्ठते । आदित्याज्जायते वृष्टिर्वृष्टेरन्नं ततः प्रजाः’ (मनु. ३ । ७६) इति स्मृतेः । यज्ञः अपूर्वम् ।   

That 'Aditya' is said to cause rain is significant. 

regards

subrahmanian.v 

[shankara]

Subbuji,

Glad to see the quote from Manu. Vachaspatyam wrongly attributes Gita verse to Manu, under the entry 'parjanya'.

"यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः" इति मनुः।

I could not find this anywhere in the Manusmriti. The Sankarabhashya you quoted makes it clear that the attribution of यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः to Manu in Vachaspatyam is wrong. It seems even Vachaspatyam is not free from errors.

regards
shankara

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

' Cycle' , 'Cycles' is an important concept of contemporary environmental/ecological understanding. 

Particularly, there is an emphasis on the role of living creatures , particularly humans in this cyclic chain events in the environment. 

Leaving alone which of such cycles is being described or discussed and the 'scientific' validity of the described  or discussed cycle, the principle in

एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रं नानुवर्तयतीह यः |

अघायुरिन्द्रियारामो मोघं पार्थ स जीवति ||३- १६|| 

is part of /in tune with / the same as the contemporary environmentalist understanding. 

" Follow / live in tune with the cyclic self regulated and self sustained natural eco-system. You are part of the cycle. Your role in the cycle should be such that it keeps the cycle healthy or at least does not disturb it " is the contemporary environmentalist message. 

What is at the the root of the present environmental crisis? 

Human has become इन्द्रियारामः .This is the present environmentalist understanding too. 

What is the result of such a crisis? 

मोघं  स जीवति   

is the present environmentalist lamentation too. 

Your participation in the cyclic eco-system should be भूतभावोद्भवकरः , not the opposite of it.  This is the present environmentalist message too. 

A person who is not  इन्द्रियारामः contributes own materials with the attitude of  संप्रददे न मम , ..........आय/अये/ etc.(चतुर्थी ) स्वाहा , आय/अये/ etc. (चतुर्थी ) इदं न मम . That is why it is called विसर्गः .

The verb root at the root of the word यज्ञ , यज देव पूजा-संगतिकरण-दानेषु has the meaning daana which is visarga. It is संगतिकरण , co-ordinating, connecting, organizing of the भूतभावोद्भवकर karmas. 

चक्रानुवर्तन of the cycle of  भूतभावोद्भवकर karmas performed by भूतानि being organized (यज) into events leading back to भूतभावोद्भव is the main point .   Whether पर्जन्यः is an intermediary in this cycle or not is secondary. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Now , coming to the question of whether fires can lead to rains, 

there are many observations such as 

Weatherwatch: how bushfires create their own rain     https://www.theguardian.com/news/2014/jan/27/weatherwatch-how-bushfires-create-rain  

 The rising plume of smoke above a fire is the visible sign of a larger updraught of hot air, carrying moisture from burning vegetation. As this updraught mixes with colder air at altitude, the water vapour condenses into fluffy white cloud called Pyrocumulus, from the Greek pyro for fire. As it grows, the cloud may develop into anvil-shaped Pyrocumulonimbus and produce a shower of rain. This might even extinguish the parent fire.

[Venkata Sriram]

Namaste,

This could also be one of the explanations for cause & effect :

देवान्भावयतानेन ते देवा भावयन्तु वः।
परस्परं भावयन्तः श्रेयः परमवाप्स्यथ।।3.11

"देवान् इन्द्रादीन् भावयत वर्धयत अनेन यज्ञेन। ते देवा भावयन्तु आप्याययन्तु वृष्ट्यादिना वः युष्मान्। एवं परस्परम् अन्योन्यं भावयन्तः"

rgs,

sriram

[G S S Murthy]

Many thanks for the elucidation provided by Prof. Nagaraj-ji.  "Certain smokes cause healthy rains was an ancient belief." Yes, I agree there. Heavy conflagrations like forest fires, which produce large quantities of obnoxious gases could affect the composition of rain. But to extrapolate and say that smoke arising from yajnas cause rain is not justified.

In my view, our ancients generalized on the basis of their observations, which were gross. There is nothing wrong in accepting that they were wrong sometimes. I may be straying here. But let me say. They said, "sabdaguNakam aakaasah". They endowed "aakaasha" with the quality of "sound"..If they had a clear idea of vacuum and that sound is a form of mechanical vibration, they would not have made that observation. We need not and should not defend such statements. Our ancients including the Gitacharya, Shankara rtc.had the guts to say that Vedas do not take us far. We should appreciate their attitude of not accepting everything and agree not to accept everything that has come down to us. I am aware that my view is limited by my horizon of knowledge and those who know more may excuse me. Sorry for straying.

Thanks and regards,

Murthy  

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Krishna Kashyap ji:-

I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is convincing to present day generation.

--> Convincing the present generation is fraught with peculiar problems. 

The present generation with its partial grounding in 'science' and consensual mass hive mind has a set of rules that defines its own paradigm of thought.

A deeper analysis of "Yajna" would need to go into its traditional roots in terms of  thought, belief and practice that has its own paradigm and zeitgeist.

You can achieve one but not the other.

I have seen a need amongst  modern'scholars' in trying to define the Purusha sukta as Big Bang and other such modern scientific theories. Such thought would be a disservice to both the Purusha Sukta and the Big Bang Theory.

It is entirely possible for the one to have validity within its context without validation from the other. This is because the two are possessed of entirely different contexts.

I saw a gentleman on a TV show called Grahacharam try and describe Rahu kalam as the time when UV rays rule with some sort of VIBGYOR chart. 

The same gentleman mixed planets with grahas when they are clearly NOT the same.

This is precisely the kind of exploration that results in accusations of dabbling in pseudo-scientific enquiry. Not only does it draw ridicule on the shastra and the shastris, it also debases trust in shastra among the cognoscenti, the ignorant and those in between.

There are records in shastra of Brahma and devas performing Yajna, so this precludes the need for humans as a causal factor in the 'rainman' effect. Brahma, Devas, Nagas, Rakshasas and Gandharvas do not fall under the manusha yoni. 

Also, in sanatana dharma the cycle of life is a cycle of creation and destruction unlike in Abrahamic thought where creation is a unique one time incident until one final judgement day (offer available for a limited time only)  where all men are 'judged'.

In sanatana dharma there is mention of Rshis who predate even cosmic time as mentioned in shastra. 

The best way of understanding Yajna in all its dimensions adhibhautika, adhyatmika and adhidaivika is to perform agnikaryas and Japa as per vidhi. There is no way of rationalising this.

What is confined within manas cannot understand prAchetasa.

Kind Regards,

[Dr. Yadu Moharir]

Namste:

My favorite remains to be:

यज्ञः कस्मात्---प्रख्यातं यजति कर्मेति नैरुक्ताः (निरुक्त--3.19)

Rgds

Dr Yadu

On Tuesday, July 9, 2019, 9:20:09 AM MST, venkat veeraraghavan <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Dear Shri Krishna Kashyap ji:-

I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is convincing to present day generation.

--> Convincing the present generation is fraught with peculiar problems. 

The present generation with its partial grounding in 'science' and consensual mass hive mind has a set of rules that defines its own paradigm of thought.

A deeper analysis of "Yajna" would need to go into its traditional roots in terms of  thought, belief and practice that has its own paradigm and zeitgeist.

You can achieve one but not the other.

I have seen a need amongst  modern'scholars' in trying to define the Purusha sukta as Big Bang and other such modern scientific theories. Such thought would be a disservice to both the Purusha Sukta and the Big Bang Theory.

It is entirely possible for the one to have validity within its context without validation from the other. This is because the two are possessed of entirely different contexts.

I saw a gentleman on a TV show called Grahacharam try and describe Rahu kalam as the time when UV rays rule with some sort of VIBGYOR chart. 

The same gentleman mixed planets with grahas when they are clearly NOT the same.

This is precisely the kind of exploration that results in accusations of dabbling in pseudo-scientific enquiry. Not only does it draw ridicule on the shastra and the shastris, it also debases trust in shastra among the cognoscenti, the ignorant and those in between.

There are records in shastra of Brahma and devas performing Yajna, so this precludes the need for humans as a causal factor in the 'rainman' effect. Brahma, Devas, Nagas, Rakshasas and Gandharvas do not fall under the manusha yoni. 

Also, in sanatana dharma the cycle of life is a cycle of creation and destruction unlike in Abrahamic thought where creation is a unique one time incident until one final judgement day (offer available for a limited time only)  where all men are 'judged'.

In sanatana dharma there is mention of Rshis who predate even cosmic time as mentioned in shastra. 

The best way of understanding Yajna in all its dimensions adhibhautika, adhyatmika and adhidaivika is to perform agnikaryas and Japa as per vidhi. There is no way of rationalising this.

What is confined within manas cannot understand prAchetasa.

Kind Regards,

  

On Friday, July 5, 2019 at 10:44:33 AM UTC+5:30, Krishna Kashyap wrote:

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[Sudheendra Rao N R]

Anna, Bhuta, Parjanya, Yagjna, Karma, Brahma, Akshara, these are the spokes of the wheel the center of which is ParaBrahma (Ara iva ratha nabho) who is all pervasive and full of trigunateeta attributes (sarva gatam).

Human beings are not the only life forms (jeeva). Devatha, Yaksha, Gandarva, Chakravartis, Rshis, Danava, Daityas, Asuras, Rakshshas etc are other. So we don't have to be here to get the circle going. Other enlightened souls will keep doing the right thing.

Akshara (Lakshmi) controls Brahma (Chaturmukha) who does Karma (through devatas) and performs (Yagna) and gets boon (Parjanya) which carries Jeeva down the lokas to Bhu loka where Bhuta are born and taken care by Anna (Prakruti-Lakshmi). Parabrahma is the center of all this because it is he who is providing Jnana Ichcha and Shakti to all life forms (including Lakshmi and Chaturmukha) and controling (niyamaka) to all Jada forms. Hence he is everything (sutre manigana iva). He is auspiciously present in Yagjna (Yaja-Devapujayam, Yaja-Sangatikarana, Yaja-Dana).

Hence, Yagnat bhavati Parjanya need not be interpreted as Yagna causes rain. PARJANYA-prajananam janayati iti Parjanya, Prakrushta janmam dadati iti Parjanya. Rain happens everywhere (Varsha) but Parjanya brings boons that give rise to life forms (oushadhi, Sasya, jeeva). 

Please read Bannanje Govindacharya version of Geeta Bhashya and Aitareya Bhashya and Chandogya Bhashya, based on Madhwacharya's work. You wont have any doubts.

Best wishes.

Best,

Sudheendra Rao

ಶುಕ್ರ, ಜುಲೈ 5, 2019 ರಂದು 10:44 ಪೂರ್ವಾಹ್ನ ಸಮಯಕ್ಕೆ ರಂದು Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> ಅವರು ಬರೆದಿದ್ದಾರೆ:

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[Aravinda Rao]

Dear scholars,

The Sloka अन्नात् भवन्ति भूतानि is difficult to explain. My understanding is as follows:

 

It can be explained by examining other verses which employ the world yajna in the Gita. 

 

For instance, 3-9 says, यज्ञार्थात् कर्मणोन्यत्र .... in which the meaning for the word yajna is यज्ञो वै विष्णुः - for the sake of Vishnu, in other words, karma done with ईश्वरार्पण बुद्धिः  

 

3-10 reads सहयज्ञाः प्रजाः .... in which सहयज्ञाः is a बहुव्रीहि, meaning "people who have been created inseparably with obligations". The human being is created along with certain obligations.

अनेन प्रसविष्यध्वम् means “by such harmonious actions you multiply/prosper”. It means that man is not the boss of the universe, but he has to live in harmony with it.

 

3-11 says देवान् भावयत … in which देवाः means इन्द्रादयः – various manifestations in nature. In other words, cosmic energy manifest in different forms. They should be harmony among the अधिभूत, अधिदैव and अध्यात्म levels. परस्परं भावयन्तः – mutually nourishing.  

 

3-12 यज्ञभाविताः … nourished by yajna, which means desire-free actions, service oriented actions. The individual, व्यष्टि, has to contribute to the aggregate, समष्टि

 

3-13 यज्ञशिष्टाशिनः .... Those who enjoy after sharing with others. The concept of पञ्च महायज्ञाः are meant here.

 

3-14 अन्नात् भवन्ति भूतानि .... The whole world consists of रयि and प्राणम् (Prasnopanishad), matter and energy. अन्नम् is that which eats and also gets eaten. Thus it refers to the whole resources in the universe which are the life-source for the individual, the microcosm.

The next expression यज्ञात् भवति पर्जन्यः can be interpreted at a philosophical level to mean that by our harmonious actions with respect to the forces of nature, the nature also would be bountiful to us.

The Indian tradition has always respected nature. When we take a dip in a river we apologize to it. When we dig the earth we respectfully say मृत्तिके हन मे पापम् ...

 

3-16 एवं प्रवर्तितं चक्रं .... the wheel of interdependence and harmonious action. Nourishing the eco system which nourishes us.

 

Chapter – 4 of the Gita  uses the word yajna metaphorically to mean any action done in the interest of समष्टि or any austerity leading to self-purification (4-28)

 

4-31 यज्ञशिष्टामृतभुजो .... after performing/fulfilling the societal/ethical obligations, what remains is शिष्टम्.

The Taittiriya Aranyakam (10-64) starting with तस्यैवं विदुषो यज्ञस्य आत्मा यजमानः, श्रद्धा पत्नी ... uses an extended metaphor describing how the whole lifetime is spent as a yajna by the spiritual seeker.

  

Aravinda Rao K.

  

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[Kalicharan Tuvij]

अन्नाद्भवन्ति भूतानि पर्जन्यादन्नसम्भवः।
Population increase comes with surplus food; surplus food comes with technology.

यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यो यज्ञः कर्मसमुद्भवः।।3.14।।
Technology comes with Yagna; Yagna is concentric with Karma.


P.S.

Parjanya is a devatA having svarupa that of Dharma itself, though here best understood through the technology aspect.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

1. Your approach to ancient Indian 'sciences' and technology was made by clear by you long time ago when you declared that it was a wasteful exercise to try to find sciences and technology in ancient Sanskrit texts.  As an immediate response to 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-RJ1zPNc3k8/P22wcm6WCQAJ

you unambiguously declared at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-RJ1zPNc3k8/AsDbjFijCQAJ

that 

I believe we are fooling ourselves if we believe that Vedas and Sanskrit writings contain hidden treasures of Science and Technology. Any money spent  in that direction is money gone down the drain.

Regards,

Murthy

Your present response to the discussion on Yajna is very much consistent with that position of yours. 

2. Meanwhile, there is a great work, drawing knowledge useful for contemporary life from the ancient Sanskrit literature. There is some information related to this in that thread itself where you made your post above. 

3. Problem with your approach can be exemplified through the case of your way of looking at the question of S'abda being mentioned as the guṇa of ākāśa . 

You say, "If they had a clear idea of vacuum and that sound is a form of mechanical vibration, they would not have made that observation." 

Here you yourself decide that they meant vacuum by ākāśa and and then proceed to declare that their view "sabdaguNakam aakaasah" was wrong on that basis. 

That the ancient Indians had a clear understanding of how sound is produced and is spread was shown by Dr Sivasenani Nori-ji at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/hB9DdoifIWI/hA3k5u6hJQAJ

When someone says that A is the quality of B, he does not mean that B is the medium of A. So sabdaguNakam aakaasah does not mean aakaasa is the medium of sabda. . 

It is prudent to think that since no one, even the stupidest of humans ever can see sound being produced by sky or vacuum, no one can be imagined to have averred that sound is the quality of sky or vacuum. So anyone who translates for onself sabdaguNakam aakaasah as " śabda is the quality of sky or vacuum would immediately realise that one's translation of ākāśa as sky or vacuum itself must be wrong. 

Just recently there was this thread on BVP :

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/$20akasa%7Csort:date/bvparishat/CH1VtTSxqRM/Q9QnCcKrCAAJ 

why participants in that thread were trying to figure out what was meant by ākāśa was this common sense only that if such rigorous s'āstrakāras were saying that s'abda is the guṇa of ākāśa , there must be some point in that. Since the translation "Sound is the quality of sky" is  resulting in an obviously stupid statement stupidity in which is not consistent with the rigor and intelligence displayed by those who made the  original Sanskrit statement, there must be something wrong in the English translation -- is the line of thinking that was running throughout that discussion. That discussion was inconclusive but nevertheless on the right lines because it was based on the principle of consistency that stupidity found from the translation is inconsistent with the intelligence displayed otherwise by the makers of the original Sanskrit statement hence the wrong should lie with the translation.   

3. This approach of doubting the validity of translation does not always arise out of religious respect towards the maker of the translated original statement. Even if one were to hear an obviously stupid statement as a translation of the statement made by a forsest-dweller's culture of some remote continent, the suspicion always is on the validity of the translation itself and not on the sanity of the maker of the original statement. 

4. Similarly, when we try to make sense of statements such as यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः , we try to see sense in the statement, not necessarily out of some religious respect towards the text or its author. Trying to make sense need not be viewed as forcing justification. 

5. यज्ञ is not limited to rain making or making rain into a fertilizing rain or a cloud-seeding-like activity or any such rain related activity alone. यज्ञ was and is performed for many other results and with many other purposes. Here , in this context, one of all those numerous benefits of yajna is being focused on. 

In this very adhyāya from where the verses under discussion have been chosen, just a  few verses earlier, we have

सहयज्ञाः प्रजाः सृष्ट्वा पुरोवाच प्रजापतिः ।

अनेन प्रसविष्यध्वमेष वोऽस्त्विष्टकामधुक् ॥ ३-१०॥

 yajna is being called इष्टकामधुक् here. 

In the immediately next verse, Yajna is being described as a mutual give and take between 'nature forces' and humans. ( That Vedic devatas were nothing but 'nature forces' has been there right from the days of the crudest modern understanding of the Vedic texts. ) 

देवान्भावयतानेन ते देवा भावयन्तु वः ।

परस्परं भावयन्तः श्रेयः परमवाप्स्यथ ॥ ३-११॥

This particular verse is strikingly significant because this is the verse which very clearly establishes that among 

1. nature-dominating 

2. nature-fearing and 

3. nature-friendly 

approaches towards nature, Vedic approach was that of #3. (That modern S & T is seen as having the worldview of #1 above is well known. Stereotyped primitive man descriptions are on the lines of # 2 above.)

That this परस्परं भावयन्तः is very much in line with the contemporary environmentalist understanding is obvious. 

6. Based on the enormous amount of literature on the elaborate procedures of yajnas, sophisticated understanding such as that of geometry found in such books dealing with yajna procedures etc., it is prudent to think that yajna was not some nonsensical activity. When we try to make sense of statements such as

यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः, we proceed on those lines. When anything in those lines is found to be stupid during the understanding of such lines, we find fault with our understanding of the lines and not with the original lines, for this reason.  

Warm regards,

Nagaraj

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

While reiterating your position that it is not needed to look for rationally valid knowledge in Vedas and ancient Sanskrit texts, you brought Sankara and Gitacharya and wanted to show that they too concur with you in saying that Vedas may contain knowledge that may get proved wrong at a later time in history.

Neither Sankara nor Gitacharya take such a position anywhere. 

What Gitacharya says is , त्रैगुण्यविषया वेदाः निष्त्रैगुण्यो भवार्जुन .

This just delineates the scope of Veda with respect to moksha sadhana. It has nothing even something remotely connected to what you are saying. 

Sankara talks about for which questions Veda needs to be consulted. He says that worldly disciplines are to be consulted for worldly questions. Vedas can help in knowing super sensory aspects. Even this is not the same as what you are saying.

[shankara]

Paturiji,

The last para of your post doesn't match with the Gita verse त्रैगुण्यविषया वेदाः निष्त्रैगुण्यो भवार्जुन and Sri Sankara's commentary on it.

Alladi Mahadeva Sastri's translation of Sankara bhashya for त्रैगुण्यविषया वेदाः निष्त्रैगुण्यो भवार्जुन :-

"The Vedas i.e. the Karmakanda portion of the Vedas, treat of the triad of the gunas; Samsara is their subject. You, on the other hand, had better be free from the triad of the gunas, i.e. be without desires."

regards
shankara

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[G S S Murthy]

Dear Prof. Nagaraj-ji,

I am most thankful to you for having thought that my notings merited a rebuttal from you. I am used to silence as an answer which is at once profound and derisive. 

You have taken the trouble to dig out the archives and show that I have been consistent in my view in this matter. I am guilty of having wasted your precious time. I am dismayed that I have been forced to be consistent. I do not consider consistency a virtue for a learner like me.

Prof.Sivasenan Nooriji's findings on Shabarabhashya are indeed an eye opener. That extract does not talk of "aakaasha", however.

It is my observation that whenever we can gleam a bit of science in our heritage, the texts available do not-I am subject to learning and correction here- explicitly bring out the logical chain of thought behind their general statements. Shabara bhashya as quoted by Prof.Noori does not say how the author arrived at the proposed theory. 

Upanishads do talk of experiments conducted and how based on the gross observations they arrive at certain conclusions. But somehow somewhere this method seems to have got lost. Even in mathematics, theorems and methods of calculation are given without explaining the rationale.  

In other words, even where we discern some science we do not see any scientific method. Of course, we have been great in classification.

Whether it is smoke-rain relationship or sound-aakasha relationship if it can be justified it is fine. But any contrived, belaboured and circuitous explanation need not be attempted. Let us gloss over and proceed beyond. There is so much profound, beautiful and everlasting in the ancient texts that we need to assimilate.

It is important that our young Sanskrit Scholars do not become conformists (We have 15 or more Sanskrit Universities) and do not think beyond what is there in the texts.

 पूर्विकरोपितवृक्षच्छाया वसतिः फलान्यशनमस्य ।

नवतरुरोपणमस्य न कार्यं कत्थति तरुरयं मे ॥

---

It is the rebels who leave footprints on the sands of time and not the conformists. Sorry, I seem to have descended to pontification. Amen.

Just before clicking "send", I saw your latest post, Prof. Nagaraj. What I read into a text, you do not. Let us agree to disagree.

Thank you once again, Prof. Nagaraj.

Regards,

Murthy

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Shankara-ji, 

What Gitacharya says is , त्रैगुण्यविषया वेदाः निष्त्रैगुण्यो भवार्जुन .

This just delineates the scope of Veda with respect to moksha sadhana.

Means the same as what you quoted.

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

"Prof. Nagaraj. What I read into a text, you do not, " 

- That is obvious. 

That is what gives scope for discussion.

" 

---

It is the rebels who leave footprints on the sands of time and not the conformists" 

Those who conform to the Scientific Method of modern science and incompatibly apply that to the disciplines of ancient Indic Knowledge Systems, consider themselves to be rebels.  But the fact that it is the conformist innovators/ rebels that contributed newer and newer ground breaking theories , models and approaches in various Indic Knowledge Systems breaks the stereotypes about those who avoid application of incompatible methods to the traditional knowledge systems.

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[Krishna Kashyap]

some of my observations:

1) Yajna has deeper significance beyond just: fire sacrifice with mantras

yajna even in the context of Gita is not just restricted to : offerings to Agni using "Havis" and mantras.

these shlokas confirm them:

It is noted in this above shloka that "jnAna yajna is superior to dravya maya yajna".

In MahAnArAyanIya, the yajna of a jnAni need not involve a fire sacrifice, •In other words, the Self is the dikshita ; faith is the wife; the body is the fuel ; the heart is the post ; kama is the offering and anger is the animal offered etc. All things belonging to the sacrificer are for the sake of the sacrifice : as are all actions towards the same goal.

2) Justifying yajnAt bhavati parjanyaha only based on "fire sacrifices" can be justified only using the verse 

since gandharvas, devatas etc. could be doing yajnas, even if human beings stop yajnas or were not there to do yajnas, still life will be supported by the yajnas done by other beings.

Someone told me that if there are just 10 Jnanis in the world, it will be enough to save the world. Taking this, we can see that even if others did not do much, these jnanis will appease the devatas and keep the food cycle going. The results of yajnas are not equal to everyone. some may get floods and get washed away. some may get no rain, based on their karmas.

to me, if Yajna is taken in the larger sense as explained in so many verses, it is easier to explain in this manner: every being will be doing some sort of yajna as explained in so many verses, since there are different forms of yajnas. We have to accept that we need these Devatas to bring rains, since somehow life forms are supported by water and since we do not do much to bring rains, it is easier to assume that some divine forces do this job and sustain life.

3) then comes the cycle issue, if you take the different bhashyas and match up the cycles, we have to match cycles exactly the way gita says. We cannot short-circuit the cycle to lesser elements in the chain given in Gita.  Here I made a few graphics to compare different bhashyas. I will leave it to the readers to come up with their own conclusions.

as stated in Gita:

in Shankara Bhashya:

In Ramanuja Bhashya

In Madhva-Bhashya

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

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[Irene Galstian]

I apologise for intruding into the discussion, and I'll try to keep it brief.
I understand your concern with scientific rigour and preserving the
logical chains of reasoning, but I'd also like to submit to you that
when an extremely nontrivial result is being proved in modern
mathematics, for example, these logical chains become subtle indeed,
shall we say. Consider how the Weil Conectures were proved using
Grothendieck's machinery, and you'll see firsthand that logical chains
only *seem* secure. Now, is algebraic geometry not a science? Most
think it is. But you'll find plenty of ambiguity, right there in the
proof of a result that's considered proved and true.
The comfort of words like 'foundations', 'known', 'proved' lasts as
long as you're not up against a proof so intricate that it needs all
the capacities of the available intellecual machinery, as was the case
with these conjectures. 'Comfort notions', some of which I've listed
above, are paraded in front of awestruck undergrads, but that's
marketing at work. Eventually these notions dissolve, as all notions
must.

On 7/12/19, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Prof. Nagaraj. What I read into a text, you do not, "
> - That is obvious.
> That is what gives scope for discussion.
>
> "

> ------------------------------
>
> <https://mobile-mail.google.com/1976172488/1879752313601276138#m_7436441360560168215_m_4337482120501142541__ftnref1>

>> ------------------------------
>>
>>
>> <#m_6399827131871084538_m_7436441360560168215_m_4337482120501142541__ftnref1>

>>>>>>>>>>> *यज्ञात्कारीर्यादेरग्निहोत्रादे*श्चापूर्वाख्यात्

>>>>>>>>>>> धर्माद्भवति पर्जन्यः
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Reference is given to कारीरेष्टि.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> rgs,
>>>>>>>>>>> sriram
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 11:19:34 AM UTC+5:30, G S S Murthy
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds?
>>>>>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Murthy
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 10:32, Krishna Kashyap <
>>>>>>>>>>>> kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear Sri Nagaraj Paturi Ji,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thanks a lot. I will take a deep look and may use your diagram
>>>>>>>>>>>>> for the class!

>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Best Regards,*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Krishna Kashyap*

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> * If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reptiles, how did they get water to survive?*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> should be :
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *if reptiles were created prior to human beings, how did

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> get water to survive, since they did not do any yajna

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (sacrifice).*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Best Regards,*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Krishna Kashyap*

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 10:14 PM Krishna Kashyap <
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was teaching 3rd chapter Gita: Verse: yajnAt bhavati
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> parjanyaha.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - meaning "yajna" caises rains. Thanks to Prof Kannan's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> small paper on Yajna. that was very useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was reading different vyakhyanas on this, stating a verse
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from : 'The oblations offered in fire reach the sun, and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from the sun comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rain' (Manu, 3.76),
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Then come the questions: did it rain before human beings
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> were created? if so how.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Somehow, this chakra or cycle, is interpreted in different
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ways and nothing seems complete and clear.*

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some state (abhinava gupta) that Yajna is much deeper than
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this. Yajna is process of experience. Sense objects are
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> offerings to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Indriyas, which are Devathas. Parjanya in this commentary is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taken to be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the experiencer.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Some explain yajna as community work or in a way selfless
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> work. Even though how can work cause rains? this is still a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> question.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> convincing to present day generation. *in general and in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> particular to the chakra : annat bhavanti bhutani. I am l
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> checking all the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> available commentaries on Gita.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there is a thorough assessment of Yajna, it would be
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> useful.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In wikipedia, However, connecting yajna as it is given in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> earlier texts such as:In the Upanishadic times, or after
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 500 BCE, states Sikora, the meaning of the term Yajna
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> evolved from "ritual
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sacrifice" performed around fires by priests, to any
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "personal attitude and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> action or knowledge" that required devotion and dedication.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [6]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajna#cite_note-sikora86-6>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> oldest Vedic Upanishads, such as the Chandogya Upanishad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (~700 BCE) in
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chapter 8, for example state,[13]

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajna#cite_note-hume266-13>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> अथ य*द्यज्ञ* इत्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येव यो ज्ञाता तं
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> विन्दतेऽथ यदिष्टमित्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येवेष्ट्वात्मानमनुविन्दते ॥ १ ॥
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is commonly called *Yajna* is really the chaste life

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the student of sacred knowledge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for only through the chaste life of a student does he who
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is a knower find that,

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is commonly called *Istam* (sacrificial offering) is

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for only having searched with chaste life of a student
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does one find Atman

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atman_(Hinduism)> (Soul,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Self) || 1 ||
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> — *Chandogya Upanishad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandogya_Upanishad> 8.5.1*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [13]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajna#cite_note-hume266-13>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [14]
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yajna#cite_note-sikora87-14>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *No matter what the commentary is, a clear understanding

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> regarding how devathas shower rain when pleased by yajna,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has to be clearly
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> explained. If people were created prior to earlier forms of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life like

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reptiles, how did they get water to survive?*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *In some commentaries, the next verse evam pravarthitam

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> chakram nanuvartyati cha yah..... which indicates a cycle,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not very

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> clear.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *The explanation of cycle is not coherent.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *OR it may be stated that devatas showering rains, due to

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> yajnas cannot be understood scientifically or logically.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just trust in

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vedas.*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Best Regards,*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *Krishna Kashyap*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *sarvam sri krishnarpanam astu*
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> *asmad gurubhyO namah*

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CANkLSMkvgDYoZUgs3oV_M9s90X9r45JLeLO0HiiwHbYWd_adLg%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Knowledge Systems.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Education,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Google Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it, send an email to bvpar...@googlegroups.com.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post to this group, send email to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bvpar...@googlegroups.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To view this discussion on the web visit

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9ebTvodzSgbvxXZOJWLeqXbwxnj%3D45A0DvPTkJO_m4ZD3w%40mail.gmail.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CAJGj9ebTvodzSgbvxXZOJWLeqXbwxnj%3D45A0DvPTkJO_m4ZD3w%40mail.gmail.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CANkLSMk7YJLOFF_gF3STXGW7xXa2JnxGo6SvyMEBJ9%3D_HKDATg%40mail.gmail.com
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com
>>>>>>>>>>>> <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> --
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>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/98fac2db-cc23-45dc-93ed-cece3b6a0243%40googlegroups.com

>>>>>>>>>>> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/98fac2db-cc23-45dc-93ed-cece3b6a0243%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer>
>>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
>>>>>>>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/
>>>>>>>>>>

>>>>>>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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>>>>>>>>>> Groups "भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्" group.
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>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bvparishat/CADi6ZRjai7Jwe2bAJv-_Ra5QVa6NfDRHMgC-nHtOo34vMdtSpQ%40mail.gmail.com
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>>>>>>>>>> .

>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge
>>>>>>>>> Systems.
>>>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal
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>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge
>>>>>>> Systems.
>>>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal
>>>>>>> Education,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>
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>>>>>> and also my Sanskrit blog :
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>>>>>>

>>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

>>>>>>
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems.
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>

>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*

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[G S S Murthy]

I presume Irene Galstian-ji's note refers to my previous notings. I have heard of Weil's conjecture but not of Grothendieck's machinery. I tried to google, but google is no ladder to climb up to the ethereal layers of mathematics. I am not capable of talking at that level.

I talk at the level of a schoolboy/girl's fascination with Euclid's theorems and their proofs. I am vaguely aware of the problems in axiomatic set theory, Godel's Incompleteness theorem etc. But they are at a totally different level, what I may call the fine-structure of  Mathematics. The failure of logic at those levels, I believe, has very little to do with the absence of a logical frame in Indian Science/mathematics texts. 

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

absence of a logical frame in Indian Science/mathematics texts ?

Please !

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sharing Prof Saal 's article. Please note the word ' scientific methods' in the very beginning.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Bonkhorst's article in response

https://www.jstor.org/stable/23496863

[Sathyawageeswar Subramanian]

Smoke is a mix of vapours, gases and fine particles whereas cloud is mass of water droplets suspended in air.  Smoke does not cause cloud.  

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

If modern science is going to be invoked as शरणम् for the vedas, may it please be invoked in whatever entirety it exists, not gaseous English statements about smoke not causing cloud.

For what its worth, there's also a reasonably well studied (not to say widely used or well understood) science of nucleation - clouds cannot simply materialise out of thin air, as it were. Larger particles, most prominently dust (which in general includes the vague 'smoke') provide a nucleus around which droplets of water condense to form clouds, and most importantly rain clouds. 

Cloud-seeding is also a hotly researched topic, and it has been known for several years that hygroscopic salts and particles (most of those used have been iodide salts) are capable of inducing rapid precipitation cloud formation. Sarcostemma acidum, a candidate for the somalatA, is known to contain several bioactive phytochemicals that are hygroscopic in their extracted and purified form. Another candidate is poppy, the oleic acids of which are known to form iodised esters that can contain up to 38% iodine by weight, and these compounds can be formed in the lab in a test tube over a bunsen burner, aka the cauldron of a 'fire ritual'.

Our ancients including the Gitacharya, Shankara rtc.had the guts to say that Vedas do not take us far. We should appreciate their attitude of not accepting everything and agree not to accept everything that has come down to us.

The same has been said of modern science by several luminaries in every branch of it one can name. In today's world, it takes guts only to say the the 'vedas etc.' take us some finite distance at least; when the agenda of most is to say the vedas sit on a big nought.

If anyone is interested, here are some references in papers published in peer-reviewed modern scientific journals with more thorough documentation of their methods and results than ancient Indian literature, made possible by the internet slowly replacing human memory.

https://agupubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1029/2001JD001544

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111013113814.htm

A simple discussion of the thermodynamics of precipitation cloud formation may be found at https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/273710/why-does-atmospheric-water-vapor-need-dust-particles-to-fall-as-rain

Thanks and regards,

 

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 12:57, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

Your question was answered in a  greater detail  in a previous post in the present thread at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/6N4NpjuEolI/996zVvz5AgAJ

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 12:40 PM MVSSP AGNI <mvss...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected scholars,

      I feel all of you saw the Sanskrit movie Adi Shankaracharya (1983). In that movie while explaing to the question of veda vyasa mahamuni on the brahma sutra of sadhanadhyaya तदन्तर प्रतिपत्तौ the sage sankara explains the Chandaogya upanishad verse  असौवावलोको गौतमाग्निः -------------- वर्षस्संभवति ------------ यावदायुषं जीवति -- . I feel the procedure was explained there. 

In the following  link you may get the mantras along with the video of the movie.

https://youtu.be/BPeioteSOPU

Thank you. 

On Mon 8 Jul, 2019, 12:11 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

I was teaching while this conversation was going on. 

Your question was

> In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds? <

Answer: Fire-rituals produce smoke and this smoke forms into clouds. 

That is a well known observation.

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:59 AM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Quoting an authority or a commentary is not what I am looking for. Just a commonsense cause-effect relationship.

Regards,

Murthy

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 11:29, Venkata Sriram <srira...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here, shrI madhusudana saraswathi gives further explanation:

अत्र कर्मोपयोगमाह यज्ञात्कारीर्यादेरग्निहोत्रादेश्चापूर्वाख्यात् धर्माद्भवति पर्जन्यः

Reference is given to कारीरेष्टि.

rgs,

sriram

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 11:19:34 AM UTC+5:30, G S S Murthy wrote:

In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds?

Regards,

Murthy

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 10:32, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri Nagaraj Paturi Ji,

Thanks a lot. I will take a deep look and may use your diagram for the class!

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

 If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive? 

should be :

if reptiles were created prior to human beings, how did they get water to survive, since they did not do any yajna (sacrifice).

 

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 10:14 PM Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was teaching 3rd chapter Gita: Verse: yajnAt bhavati parjanyaha.

 - meaning "yajna" caises rains. Thanks to Prof Kannan's small paper on Yajna. that was very useful.

I was reading different vyakhyanas on this, stating a verse from : 'The oblations offered in fire reach the sun, and from the sun comes rain' (Manu, 3.76),  

Then come the questions: did it rain before human beings were created? if so how.

Somehow, this chakra or cycle, is interpreted in different ways and nothing seems complete and clear.

Some state (abhinava gupta) that Yajna is much deeper than this. Yajna is process of experience. Sense objects are offerings to Indriyas, which are Devathas. Parjanya in this commentary is taken to be the experiencer.

Some explain yajna as community work or in a way selfless work. Even though how can work cause rains? this is still a question.

I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is convincing to present day generation. in general and in particular to the chakra : annat bhavanti bhutani. I am l checking all the available commentaries on Gita.

If there is a thorough assessment of Yajna, it would be useful.

In wikipedia, However, connecting yajna as it is given in earlier texts such as:In the Upanishadic times, or after 500 BCE, states Sikora, the meaning of the term Yajna evolved from "ritual sacrifice" performed around fires by priests, to any "personal attitude and action or knowledge" that required devotion and dedication.^[6] The oldest Vedic Upanishads, such as the Chandogya Upanishad (~700 BCE) in Chapter 8, for example state,^[13]

अथ यद्यज्ञ इत्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव

 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येव यो ज्ञाता तं 
विन्दतेऽथ यदिष्टमित्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव
 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येवेष्ट्वात्मानमनुविन्दते ॥ १ ॥

What is commonly called Yajna is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge,

  for only through the chaste life of a student does he who is a knower find that,

What is commonly called Istam (sacrificial offering) is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge, 
  for only having searched with chaste life of a student does one find Atman (Soul, Self) || 1 ||

— Chandogya Upanishad 8.5.1 ^[13][14]

No matter what the commentary is, a clear understanding regarding how devathas shower rain when pleased by yajna, has to be clearly explained. If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive?

In some commentaries, the next verse evam pravarthitam chakram nanuvartyati cha yah..... which indicates a cycle, is not very clear.

The explanation of cycle is not coherent.

OR it may be stated that devatas showering rains, due to yajnas cannot be understood scientifically or logically. just trust in vedas.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

sarvam sri krishnarpanam astu

asmad gurubhyO namah

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

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FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Bronkhorst not Prof. Bonkhorst, misspelt, sorry.

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Murthy garu,

The gentleman's name is 'Nori' not 'Noori'. Constant misspelling of a person's name can be construed offensive and deliberate. 

Shri Paturi-garu and Sri Murthy garu:

Simply put, science is a model used to understand observed reality. The scientific method is merely a process using empirical methods and a constant feedback loop to ensure that the model is a more honest representation of observed reality, 

Now let us test the limits of this new age 'holy cow' -- the scientific method.

I use the word observed reality because when the world is examined through the eyes and then observed through an electron microscope the laws and equations change completely. 

There is no need to go into higher math to prove this.

There are a ton of results based on triangles. All these results will break down if the basic assumption of 2D space is negated. 

All force equations in mechanics are based on ignoring friction between surfaces and air resistance.

Veda is living knowledge that faithfully represents reality in all its aspects- Absolute(Nirvikalpa), relative (Savikalpa), subjective etc.

Many of the formulas etc given in the sulba sutras etc were meant to support performance of ritual and design of Yajnashalas rather than as a basis for indulging in airy intellectual narcissism and navel gazing. Given that over the last 1000 years alone many living traditions have been massacred by ravaging armies and many libraries have been burnt to ash, and given that many modern Indian indologists and stakeholders these days seem more interested in reading what some outsider has to say about the living tradiiton instead of going to the custodians themselves, what hope do we have of coming any closer to a real understanding of our own tradiitons?

Add to this the problem of transplantation of wrong semantics and there is a recipe for raita. Instead of using the shabda kalpadruma or Vachaspatyam or rules of Shiksha pertaining to the shakha for guide, when words are used interchangeably confusion is compounded.

Let me give a basic example: Many for the ease of explanation translate svaraksharas as vowels. 

  It is said that when a vowel sound is produced, the degree of stricure that is postion of the active articulators in relation with the passive (fixed) articulators remains unchanged. It happens with अ इ उ etc but not with ऋ....so do we next demote ऋ and declare it to be a consonant and not a vowel because it does not comply with the modern linguistic definition of a vowel? To do so however would be to miss the fact that ऋ is a svaraakshara and NOT a vowel as described in some linguistic definition. 

Keep your definitions LOCAL and ask traditionalists and ritualists for explanation and not outsiders.

 

Given the above, it is the MODEL that needs to fit reality and NOT the other way around.

Kindly get the opinion of Shri Korada Garu and others like him.

Regards,

Venkat

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[Siddharth Wakankar]

Shri Venkat ji,

Congrats for a superb explanation,bringing out the drawbacks of the scholars and guiding them to look at our traditions with our eyes and not of others who might not have deep insight in our culture or who are bent on distorting it.

Prof.Siddharth Y Wakankar.

Vadodara.9427339942.

Prof. Siddharth Y Wakankar

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[G S S Murthy]

I am awefully sorry for having misspelt the name of prof.

 Nori.

My apologies.

Murthy.

On Sat 13 Jul, 2019, 12:47 PM venkat veeraraghavan, <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Irene Galstian]

As long as knowledge is based on belief, it’s vulnerable. It’s not a matter of believing Party A or Party B. To know, we can only perceive directly, no outsourcing is possible. 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Smt Irene ji-

I am not talking of believing X or Y.

Perceiving directly is not easy for most, which is why colleges and universities exist.

Sampradayas are the eastern equivalent of these for traditional ritual, arts and 'sciences'.

Even a Vivekananda needed a Ramakrishna who needed a Tota Puri and others.

If I want to learn Quantum Mechanics, I would not go to Deepak Chopra (although he does write a lot about Quantum this and quantum that).

I would enroll at Matscience Inst or Caltech or any other school that had a good reputable program in QM.

If I wished to study Tantra or Veda, I would apprentice with a person who has lived and learned within these systems. Belief has nothing to do with this. The issue is one of trustworthyness of source. The trust factor is high when you know that the teacher comes from pedigree (sampradaya). I use sampradaya not in the narrow sense of certain modern neo-sampradayins, but in the true sense of the term.

It is ok to have an opinion, but to demand that system A obey the paradigms of system B is ridiculous to say the least and wreaks of inherent bias.

My 2 cents.

V

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[Sivasenani Nori]

Sir

While I am thankful to Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan for printing out my correct name, it is quite okay. Happens with unfamiliar names. And I am not a professor; only a Dr. 

Regarding the res, I wish to point out that we need to keep in mind what is mukhya and gauNa in Vedas and Angas. The main objective of Veda is to teach about Brahman (jnaanakaanda) and Yajna/Dharma (karmakaanda), everything else like description of the order of creation etc. is gauNa. In the case of Angas, the subject of each Sastra is clearly defined and any spillover is incidental; the spilt-over matter cannot be taken as the complete treatment of that topic.

So, if we should not search for science in Vedas it is because they are the wrong texts for that, like searching for calculus in Economics. 

Regards

Senani

[Nagaraj Paturi]

One Vedic discipline in which methods have been very well documented is Ayurveda. Tantra Yukti is such a collection of methods or methodology only.  

In spite of its existence and study, popular opinion among the uniformed continues to be : Ayurveda gives only conclusions and not the methods. 

Vakyapadiyam clearly claims that the very purpose of the book is to preserve the discipline-specific logical methods in contrast to s'ushka tarka, general logic .

I am, at this moment, sitting in a Vaakyaartha Sadas at Varanasi where the very essence is discipline -specific reasoning of a scholar getting peer-reviewed thoroughly, rigorously threac

<a href="http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com

[Irene Galstian]

Quote: “It is ok to have an opinion, but to demand that system A obey the paradigms of system B is ridiculous to say the least and wreaks of inherent bias”.

Agreed. I think we’re saying similar things in different words, Sri Venkat.

Irene

[G S S Murthy]

Many thanks Prof. Nagaraj ji for making available papers of Staal and Bronkhorst.

I could download Prof.Staal‘s paper which is very educative. I could not follow certain sections of the paper which need some knowledge of Western thinkers. His treatment of Panini’s system is very lucid. I could only access only the first page of Prof. Bronkhorst.

There is no question of undervaluing the Himalayan intellect of Panini who constructed the magnificent structure of ashtadhyayi. He was not in my view when I talked about “absence of a logical frame”.

My comments were specific to science and mathematics texts in Sanskrit. Instead of making general statements let me explain by a few examples.

These 2 verses are from Bhaskara’s Lilavati which states Pythagoras Theorem known in India since the time of Sulbasutras.

इष्टो बाहुर्यः स्यात् तत्स्पर्धिन्यां दिशीतरो बाहुः ।

त्र्यस्रे चतुरस्रे वा सा कोटिः कीर्तिता तज्ज्ञैः ॥ १॥

तत्कृत्योः योगपदं कर्णो दोःकर्णवर्गयोः विवरात् ।

मूलं कोटिः कोटिश्रुतिकृत्योरन्तराद्बाहुः ॥ २ ॥

Here तत्कृत्योः योगपदं कर्णो gives the Pythogoras formula. There is no mention of how it can be derived. A respected and reputed professor of mathematics (he is no more), told me that proofs are not given in Sanskrit texts and they give methods or formulas but not the logic behind the formula. Referring to some specific text he said that while detailing Pythogaras theorem, a diagram is shown with a remark, “पश्य”. They are more like books on geometrical construction which describe the method of construction but not the rationale behind it.

 

Here is another example from a Prakrit text on prosody वृत्तजातिसमुच्चय of Virahaanka..

  “द्वौ द्वौ पूर्वविकल्पौ या या मेलयित्वा जायते संख्या ।
सा उत्तरमात्रानां संख्याया एष निदेशः ॥६-४९ ॥“ [संस्कृतच्छाया]

This gives the formula for Fibonacci sequence and again a proof or explanation is missing.

 F(n)=F(n-1)+F(n-2).

I do not know if this aspect has been studied in detail. I am subject to correction as there are so many Sanskrit texts on mathematics. Reason for lack of proof could be any one of the following:

1.     Proofs were known and for their own reasons (secrecy or to exhibit wizardry?) authors did not write them down. Possibly proofs were transferred orally. (Any evidence?)

2.     System of logical proof did not exist and that when a formula worked for a number of cases it was assumed that the formula was correct. (How do we reconcile this with the intellectual legacy of Panini?).

 

Then, one more point.

Why is it our science did not enable us to go beyond the wooden plow, the bullock cart and the pulley for drawing water? If we look at whatever we use daily we notice that other than our language, dress and customs (which are also mixed up) nothing is of Indian origin. Is it because we concentrated on knowing that by knowing which nothing else need be known?

Thanks and Warm Regards,

Murthy

 

 

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[Achyut Karve]

Dear Vidwans,

What constitutes the Scientific method from the Indian point of view?

The Indian Scientific method is based on the practice of Yoga.   One can refer to Sutra's 5 to 11 Pada 1 of the Yoga Sutra's of Patanjali.  Here the word klishta and Aklishta are important.   

The scientific method in case of physical sciences is different than the Scientific Method used in social sciences. 

I would like to ask what is the method that Social Scientists in the west use today?   Has it been codified?   

 

The method used by Patanjali in his Mahabhashya is by dwelling on the Sutra's of the Ashtadhyayi and present cases which are true positive,  false positive,  true negative and false negative.   This is the modern system that is used in sciences where the truth needs to be arrived through statistical methods. 

Lastly has the West through all its scientific endeavour over the past few centuries been in a position to arrive at the truth! 

Indians used direct perception as the means through the practice of yoga. 

These are Sutra's from the Yoga Sutra's of Patanjali  Pada  III 

27. By making samyama on the sun, one gains knowledge

of the cosmic spaces.

28. By making samyama on the moon, one gains knowledge

of the arrangement of the stars.

29. By making samyama on the polestar, one gains know-

ledge of the motions of the stars.  

It shows that knowledge is illumined through Samyama  (Dhyana)  and not through logic or observation as was the case with western thought. 

With regards, 

Achyut Karve. 

Show quoted text

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[Sudheendra Rao N R]

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

In support of your proposition that the Vedas and Sanskrit do not contain any hidden treasures of Science and Technology, you mentioned in your post below that ancient Sanskrit writings do have Pythagoras Theorem /Formula and formula of Fibonacci sequence but do not provide derivations and/or proofs of these. So your idea seems to be that Science is not in the form of formulas or theorems (or laws or principles etc.) but it is in the form of derivations and / or proofs. Or, in other words, discovering or finding the rules, formulas, principles, theorems, laws etc. of nature or reality is not Science. Knowing or providing derivations or proofs for these rules, formulas, principles, theorems, laws etc. is Science. Since the ancient Sanskrit works do not contain derivations or proofs what is contained in the ancient Sanskrit works is not Science. 

Incidentally when this post of you arrived here in the list I was immersed as audience to a huge Vaakyaartha Sadas which is an activity of just proofs and proofs alone. Every Vaakyaartha by a scholar ends in "hence proved" . These henceproveds are done not in one Shaastra but multiple Shaastras. The methods of proofs are highly variegated varying from Shaastra to Shaastra. 

Euclid's "Elements" has been viewed more as a book of Logic than as a book of Mathematics. Its Mathematics is viewed as contained in its theorems. The proofs in it have been viewed as containing Logic. Of course the Logic in it is specific to the discipline of Mathematics, for that matter to the branch of Mathematics that it was covering. The Logic contained in those proofs is comparable to the Logic contained in the proofs in various Shaastras. The methods of proof being different from the Logic in "Elements" is because of the aspect of reality focused in those Shaastras.  

It is reasonable to get surprised about why the same society which had such advanced system of proofs did not document the methods in the case of the Mathematical discoveries, findings and /or propositions it arrived at and articulated. But it is not reasonable to suspect " lack of proof" or "secrecy" or intentions 

" to exhibit wizardry" etc. The most unreasonable is to conclude on this basis that there is no Science in ancient Sanskrit texts. Sir, Science is fundamentally contained in the rules, formulas, principles, theorems, laws etc. discovered and only secondarily in the articulation of or documentation of derivations and/or proofs. The validity of a rule,, formula, principle, theorem, law etc  for which proof is provided in one of the systems, here the Greek system , does not get countered or nullified because such a proof has not been articulated or documented in another system, here the system in the ancient Sanskrit texts. 

------------------------------------------

Your "wooden plow, the bullock cart and the pulley for drawing water" question is related to Technology and more specifically to the issue of relation between Science and Technology. That is for another post some other time. 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri GSS Murthy ji-

Given your zeal for math  you might find the following instructive-

http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~rajeev/papers/canisiustalks.pdf 

The main thrust of your question has already been answered in full by Shri Nori, so I will avoid repetition.

Your comments on whether ancient Indians were responsible for anything more than pulleys and the bullock cart and demands for modern mathematical rigour within ancient ritualistic texts betrays a lack of appreciation for TEXTUAL CONTEXT and recent subcontinental history (1000 years of Muslim rule with the attendant mass killing of Brahmins, burning of manuscripts and libraries, 250 years of British rule, 70+ years of left liberal communist rule). Do you even know what percentage of existing manuscripts have been digitised and made indexable? 

If I write a book on ritualism, I am NOT going to bore my reader with proofs of formulae to satisfy the whimsy of some reader in the vague future looking for validation out of context.

Shri Korada has clearly mentioned in several writings that what exists in the name of Veda at present is a fraction of what used to exist before as pieced from existing knowledge. 

Add to this the fact that many rshis who maintained ashramas were householders who researched and achieved feats well beyond what modern science is capable of today. 

Your polemics about "knowing which nothing else need be known" is rather unwarranted given the fact that you probably do not have any ritualistic knowledge or indeed experience of how knowledge was obtained in the traditional Indian system.

In addition to your earlier ones you will also have to ask the following questions:

1. How did the Rshis know that the Arundhati star was part of a dual star system when they did not have even a rudimentary telescope ?

2. Why is it that much of modern plastic surgery is sourced from Sushruta and that the method of rhinoplasty is almost similar to Sushruta's after all these years?

3. How is it that a backward race playing with sticks stones and pulleys have written books about TIME DILATION atleast about 5000 years (as estimated by western and eastern indologists) predating Poincare and Einstein? 

4. Rasashastra or Indian Alchemy is unique in terms of treatment and utilisation of Mercury and other compounds.

5. The Navapashana statue of Murugan in Palani is an alchemical wonder that no one has been able to replicate so far.

6. The purification of Zinc was passed on from India to China to the rest of the world.

7. The decimal system is very conveniently called Arabic numerals now..

8. Vaimanika shastra and vimanas mentioned in shastras did not have their basis in people given to day dreaming.

This list will be too long and will outlive my patience and yours, so I will stop here.

My point in listing the above is very simple:

1. Any one of those achievements could be dismissed as a cosmic fluke, but not all.

2. Assuming this is not some fluke, this would not have been possible without rigorous quantitative methods with attendant proof. 

The only question is whether the proof is in existing knowledge or unindexed manuscripts or has been destroyed along with that lineage.

To give you some perspective on what happened in India over the last 1000 years, it will take the destruction of just 1000 scientists and technologists to take USA back to the great depression of 1929 and worse. It is this intellectual minority that supports the lifestyle of the majority. Having a smartphone at hand does make either of us smart in any sense of the word.

Imagine if you can what the systematic destruction of 1000 lineages of knowledge holders running in millions can do to a country. Do you even know what the percentage of Brahmins is in India now?

Kind Regards,

 

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[G S S Murthy]

Dear Sri. Venkat Veeraraghavan,

Thanks for the points you have made. My comments are:

1.     I went to the website and glanced through info. Available. It speaks of Kerala's contribution of Kerala to mathematics.

2.     You certainly make a point when you say that conditions that existed would have thwarted a healthy development of science and mathematics. It is also possible that some valuable works were lost due to burning, marauding, etc.

3.     Lilavati is not a book on rituals. It is a book on mathematics. It is strange that it does not provide derivations. Do any of Kerala mathematicians provide the logic behind their results?

4.     To say Vedas were lost and they might have contained precious knowledge does not add to our knowledge. They can neither be proved nor disproved.

5.     When you talk of Arundhati star or time dilatation having been known in India, I do not know how they could be given any weight. Development of Science is structured each one building up on what exists, sometimes demolishing it too. I am unable to see such a structure in Indian Science.

6.     As for vaimanika shastra it is I believe established that it is a hoax like Vedic mathematics.

Many thanks for your thought provoking notes.वादे वादे जायते तत्त्वबोधः

Warm regards

Murthy    

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Murthy ji:

Point no. 2-->"..conditions that existed would have thwarted a healthy development of science and mathematics. ... possible that some valuable works were lost due to burning, marauding, etc."

I am not suggesting Science did not thrive in ancient India. Merely that it was destroyed and we have no hope of knowing the exact extent of damage. Your second part is elaborately understated to say the least. It is well recorded that Mughals and the other Muslim invaders whether Timur the lame or Ghazni or Ghori were bloodthirsty bigots who looted, burnt and raped their way to whatever heavens they believed in. To describe this holocaust over the last 1000 years before the East India Company as  mildly as you have described is akin to denying that any jews were murdered at Auschwitz or Dachau. But I guess we have our leftist history books to thank for that!

3. Lilavati is one among many manuscripts. It is not known how scholars of that day and age organised their manuscripts and indexed them. It is not known how many survived and how many are lost or ruined.

4. Vedas can never be lost. The links are lost and hidden but lost ...? You really should pay close attention to what Shri Sivasenani Nori has written. To disregard what people like he and Sri Korada write is to ignore 12+ years of painstaking study these people have made of the Veda and attendant angas.  

5. The problem with why you are unable to see the causal linkage is that you have not (apparently) come in contact with accomplished Yogis (not the flotsam jetsam of the spiritual marketplace). If you were to plot the magnetic lines of force of a bar magnet, you will find many lines of force going from one pole to another in curved lines of force without ever seemingly reach the other pole, while there is a direct connection within between the 2 poles. This is a great analogy for modern science vs the traditional Vedic method. While the former investigates the outside world ignoring imperfections in the senses that process the data, the latter focussed on purifying and refining the senses to perceive reality as it is. The former leads to quick approximations and usable models. I will not pretend that people had phones or TV in the age before the industrial revolution, but telepathy and clairaudience existed. 

I will leave you with the words channelled by the Rshi dīrghatamas:

ऋ॒चो अ॒क्षरे॑ पर॒मे व्यो॑म॒न्यस्मिं॑दे॒वा अधि॒ विश्वे॑ निषे॒दुः ।

यस्तन्न वेद॒ किमृ॒चा क॑रिष्यति॒ य इत्तद्वि॒दुस्त इ॒मे समा॑सते ॥ 

The rks, reside in the transcendental field or akshara, of the highest (parame) etheral skies (vyoman) in which reside all the adhi vishve deva's (or impulses of creative intelligence, the laws of Nature), responsible for the whole manifest universe. He whose awareness is not open (na veda) to this field, what can the verses accomplish for him?  

This is why chitta shuddhi through japa of Gayatri is required so that the those that would approach the Veda can do so with the right attitude.

As Don Juna through Carlos Castaneda said: "“A man goes to knowledge as he goes to war: wide-awake, with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance"

6. I believe Shri Talpade designed an unmanned aircraft late 19th century based on one of the designs. 

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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[Irene Galstian]

"If you were to plot the magnetic lines of force of a bar magnet, you
will find many lines of force going from one pole to another in curved
lines of force without ever seemingly reach the other pole, while
there is a direct connection within between the 2 poles. This is a
great analogy for modern science vs the traditional Vedic method.
While the former investigates the outside world ignoring imperfections
in the senses that process the data, the latter focussed on purifying
and refining the senses to perceive reality as it is. The former leads
to quick approximations and usable models. I will not pretend that
people had phones or TV in the age before the industrial revolution,
but telepathy and clairaudience existed. "

Well said, Venkat ji.

Irene

>>>>> *“*
>>>>> *द्वौ द्वौ पूर्वविकल्पौ या या मेलयित्वा जायते संख्या । सा
>>>>> उत्तरमात्रानां संख्याया एष निदेशः ॥६-४९ ॥“* [संस्कृतच्छाया]

>>>>> *http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com <http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com/>*
>>>>>

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>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Director, Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge
>>>> Systems.
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Thanks Smt Irene ji

I meant clairvoyance not clairaudience...which might be classified under telepathy. The bar magnet is a very interesting parallel to humans and the way they operate. Some of this similarity explains the affinity for collecting iron /money..;-)

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[G S S Murthy]

Thanks, Prof.Nagaraj ji for your detailed comments.

1. I do firmly believe that it is the Methodology of Science and Mathematics that is the core of Science and not the results. When we talk of nurturing a scientific temperament it is the methodology of questioning, observing and hypothising, re-testing re-hypothising  etc. that we want to nurture in our younger generation. 

2. I am ignorant of the Nyaya system. My teacher gave me a chaatu, which is more tamil than Sanskrit. It would be well known. Let me quote at least just to show that our people were good at pulling legs even. 

श्यामा कुट्टिरयं साधुः कुट्टित्वात् पूनिकुट्टिवत् ।

पाम्बु कुट्टौ अतिव्याप्तिः तद्भिन्नत्वं निवेश्यते ॥

Humour apart, it would be an interesting project if Euclid's proofs could re-molded in the form of Nyaya-logic. I am aware that I may not be making sense. I would like to learn why it does not make sense.

Thanks and Regards,

GSS Murthy

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

What /where is the methodology of questioning, observing and hypothising, re-testing re-hypothising  etc. in Euclid's "Elements", sir?

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

If  you define Science as its methodology not the results , the logical consequence of that is the conclusion that "there is  no advancement in Science" because if there is any advancement, it is in the results but not in the methodology. 

[G S S Murthy]

Sorry  Sir if my way of expressing caused you confusion. Testing observing hypothesing etc referred to Scientific Method which employs both induction and deduction. Mathematics (Euclid) on the other hand is essentially deductive. 

Scientific method is a ladder to reach results. It cannot be considered Science if scientific methods are not employed. Engineering is not all Science, there is much that is empirical. Deep learning using neural networks is not science. It works and we do not understand how it works. 

You are perfectly correct in saying that if Scientific method only is science, then progress of science is to be equated with progress in scientific method. Except that I did not mean it. I was emphasising the importance of the Means to reach the End.

May be I need to take a course on how to reduce the distance between what I want to say and what I say.

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

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[K S Kannan]

To explore another aspect of the issue:

When it is stated that

1. A causes B,

does it mean

2. A alone causes B (or that

3. A causes B alone)?

The maxim sarvam vAkyam sAvadhAraNam has its limits.

Assertions of ayoga-vyavaccheda and anyyoga-vyavaccheda are not done carelessly,

for they demand great care.

Consider the statement

4. 10 litres of petrol takes me a hundred kilometres.

Now, does it mean that

5. Petrol alone takes me a hundred kilometres ?

The many sahakAri-kAraNa-s may go unstated

when things are evident in the context to the listener/the audience.

In common parlance we make statements which are not strictly true,

but carry a ring of truth nevertheless.

Consider

6. It is the seed that gives rise to the plant.

7. It is the sowing of the seed that gives rise to the plant.

8. It is watering that gives rise to the plant.

9. It is the fertiliser that gives rise to the plant.

The structure of the sentence may be the same in all of 6 to 9,

yet each sentence carries a ring of truth.

Not one of these may be categorically declared wrong,

even though none of these is giving a full picture.

In essence, none of the statements above may be said to be violating the Law of Causation,

even though none is stating the same exhaustively.

It is only where the statement

10. Yajn"a causes rains

is assertively interpreted as

11. Yajn"a alone, singly, causes rains

that the truth of the statement (or rather the interpretation) becomes questionable.

(It can still be not thoroughly invalid in a way,

for, even though statements 6 to 9 all look alike in regards the sentence-pattern,

statement 6 states a rather quintessential truth than the rest.)

Causation is indeed not easily stated, especially where it is complex -

dealing with a multiplicity of causes and/or multiplicity of effects.

To draw an analogy from Computer Science, in Expert Systems,

causation is often asserted as a probability (e.g. 0.87),

rather than as a simple yes or know.

Medical diagnosis has to run on such lines rather than on simple assertions.

Even the most ancient texts on Ayurveda have been acutely aware of

the mutiplicity of causes/effects.

A hallmark of true science is caution in respect of causation.

And the hallmark of a good student of science is

a proper grasp of the spirit of even bald causative statements.

No statement of causation can perhaps be considered complete/perfect till it is not quantified,

and no text on metaphysics can be expected to make any quantitative assertions.

The role of the Guru is often in turning the qualitative statement of a spiritual text

into a technology that is specific in its quantifications.

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--

Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Member, BoS, Chinmaya University/University of Hyderabad.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Principal, Evening College, Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[K S Kannan]

Typo:

anyayoga-vyavaccheda. (a missed)

Yajn"a (italicisation missed)

[K S Kannan]

 And an improvement:

Better replace till by as long as

(in Line last but three).

[हर्षवर्धनः Harsha Wardhan]

A very erudite post by Sri Venkat Veeraraghavan. Worth reading multiple times.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director,  Inter-Gurukula-University Centre for Indic Knowledge Systems. 

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Shri Harsha Wardhan ji-- Thank you for your kind words. The erudition (most of it) however is by the grace of Shri Google swami. So I cannot take credit there.

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[Deva Pattanayak]

As a scientist or a technologist, one first becomes an expert in a particular subject and then solve a problem that has not been solved or create a technology that is needed and does not exist.

To succeed in either endeavors it is necessary to seek help and guidance from a knowledgeable person or persons, the Gurus. 

Some members of this group are very knowledgeable in ancient Bharatiya wisdom and are willing to serve the role of Gurus. 

True or real advance in science and technology happens only when problems are defined and necessary questions are asked to find the answers that are satisfactory. 

I am amazed to find how our ancestors used their sensory organs, such as mind, eyes, ears, mouth, feelings, brain etc to understand nature and its dynamics without using books and computers and the resources available to us like Google.

I am now reading Srimad Bhagabata Mahapurana by Atibadi Jagannath Das in Odia language. There are so many new concepts and descriptions of nature in this treatise, which wen properly understood will result in discoveries and new advances to knowledge,

There are many shastras and to go over them require a will to learn Sanskrit and classical languages of India, such as Tamil and Odia for translations have their own inherent limitations.

I strongly believe BVP must play an organizational role in changing the current educational process in Bharat today. Necessary to connect to Vedic knowledge and subsequent advances without disconnecting from modern science and technology for which understanding English is a necessity.

My feeling is that Mother tongue, English and a classical language must be taught starting from childhood. This is not that difficult a task because children has the inherent capability to pick up languages when exposed to them. With time our thinking process will transition smoothly from one language to another. 

Also it is very important that one does not ignore nor willfully not take advantage of knowledge found in other ancient cultures and civilizations.

Devanarayan

On Thu, Jul 11, 2019 at 4:45 PM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

1. Your approach to ancient Indian 'sciences' and technology was made by clear by you long time ago when you declared that it was a wasteful exercise to try to find sciences and technology in ancient Sanskrit texts.  As an immediate response to 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-RJ1zPNc3k8/P22wcm6WCQAJ

you unambiguously declared at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/-RJ1zPNc3k8/AsDbjFijCQAJ

that 

I believe we are fooling ourselves if we believe that Vedas and Sanskrit writings contain hidden treasures of Science and Technology. Any money spent  in that direction is money gone down the drain.

Regards,

Murthy

Your present response to the discussion on Yajna is very much consistent with that position of yours. 

2. Meanwhile, there is a great work, drawing knowledge useful for contemporary life from the ancient Sanskrit literature. There is some information related to this in that thread itself where you made your post above. 

3. Problem with your approach can be exemplified through the case of your way of looking at the question of S'abda being mentioned as the guṇa of ākāśa . 

You say, "If they had a clear idea of vacuum and that sound is a form of mechanical vibration, they would not have made that observation." 

Here you yourself decide that they meant vacuum by ākāśa and and then proceed to declare that their view "sabdaguNakam aakaasah" was wrong on that basis. 

That the ancient Indians had a clear understanding of how sound is produced and is spread was shown by Dr Sivasenani Nori-ji at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/hB9DdoifIWI/hA3k5u6hJQAJ

When someone says that A is the quality of B, he does not mean that B is the medium of A. So sabdaguNakam aakaasah does not mean aakaasa is the medium of sabda. . 

It is prudent to think that since no one, even the stupidest of humans ever can see sound being produced by sky or vacuum, no one can be imagined to have averred that sound is the quality of sky or vacuum. So anyone who translates for onself sabdaguNakam aakaasah as " śabda is the quality of sky or vacuum would immediately realise that one's translation of ākāśa as sky or vacuum itself must be wrong. 

Just recently there was this thread on BVP :

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/$20akasa%7Csort:date/bvparishat/CH1VtTSxqRM/Q9QnCcKrCAAJ 

why participants in that thread were trying to figure out what was meant by ākāśa was this common sense only that if such rigorous s'āstrakāras were saying that s'abda is the guṇa of ākāśa , there must be some point in that. Since the translation "Sound is the quality of sky" is  resulting in an obviously stupid statement stupidity in which is not consistent with the rigor and intelligence displayed by those who made the  original Sanskrit statement, there must be something wrong in the English translation -- is the line of thinking that was running throughout that discussion. That discussion was inconclusive but nevertheless on the right lines because it was based on the principle of consistency that stupidity found from the translation is inconsistent with the intelligence displayed otherwise by the makers of the original Sanskrit statement hence the wrong should lie with the translation.   

3. This approach of doubting the validity of translation does not always arise out of religious respect towards the maker of the translated original statement. Even if one were to hear an obviously stupid statement as a translation of the statement made by a forsest-dweller's culture of some remote continent, the suspicion always is on the validity of the translation itself and not on the sanity of the maker of the original statement. 

4. Similarly, when we try to make sense of statements such as यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः , we try to see sense in the statement, not necessarily out of some religious respect towards the text or its author. Trying to make sense need not be viewed as forcing justification. 

5. यज्ञ is not limited to rain making or making rain into a fertilizing rain or a cloud-seeding-like activity or any such rain related activity alone. यज्ञ was and is performed for many other results and with many other purposes. Here , in this context, one of all those numerous benefits of yajna is being focused on. 

In this very adhyāya from where the verses under discussion have been chosen, just a  few verses earlier, we have

सहयज्ञाः प्रजाः सृष्ट्वा पुरोवाच प्रजापतिः ।

अनेन प्रसविष्यध्वमेष वोऽस्त्विष्टकामधुक् ॥ ३-१०॥

 yajna is being called इष्टकामधुक् here. 

In the immediately next verse, Yajna is being described as a mutual give and take between 'nature forces' and humans. ( That Vedic devatas were nothing but 'nature forces' has been there right from the days of the crudest modern understanding of the Vedic texts. ) 

देवान्भावयतानेन ते देवा भावयन्तु वः ।

परस्परं भावयन्तः श्रेयः परमवाप्स्यथ ॥ ३-११॥

This particular verse is strikingly significant because this is the verse which very clearly establishes that among 

1. nature-dominating 

2. nature-fearing and 

3. nature-friendly 

approaches towards nature, Vedic approach was that of #3. (That modern S & T is seen as having the worldview of #1 above is well known. Stereotyped primitive man descriptions are on the lines of # 2 above.)

That this परस्परं भावयन्तः is very much in line with the contemporary environmentalist understanding is obvious. 

6. Based on the enormous amount of literature on the elaborate procedures of yajnas, sophisticated understanding such as that of geometry found in such books dealing with yajna procedures etc., it is prudent to think that yajna was not some nonsensical activity. When we try to make sense of statements such as

यज्ञाद्भवति पर्जन्यः, we proceed on those lines. When anything in those lines is found to be stupid during the understanding of such lines, we find fault with our understanding of the lines and not with the original lines, for this reason.  

Warm regards,

Nagaraj

On Tue, Jul 9, 2019 at 3:46 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Many thanks for the elucidation provided by Prof. Nagaraj-ji.  "Certain smokes cause healthy rains was an ancient belief." Yes, I agree there. Heavy conflagrations like forest fires, which produce large quantities of obnoxious gases could affect the composition of rain. But to extrapolate and say that smoke arising from yajnas cause rain is not justified.

In my view, our ancients generalized on the basis of their observations, which were gross. There is nothing wrong in accepting that they were wrong sometimes. I may be straying here. But let me say. They said, "sabdaguNakam aakaasah". They endowed "aakaasha" with the quality of "sound"..If they had a clear idea of vacuum and that sound is a form of mechanical vibration, they would not have made that observation. We need not and should not defend such statements. Our ancients including the Gitacharya, Shankara rtc.had the guts to say that Vedas do not take us far. We should appreciate their attitude of not accepting everything and agree not to accept everything that has come down to us. I am aware that my view is limited by my horizon of knowledge and those who know more may excuse me. Sorry for straying.

Thanks and regards,

Murthy  

On Tue, 9 Jul 2019 at 02:29, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Sri G S S murthy-ji for that response which certainly helps me  to make my expressions more accurate than earlier in connection with yajna -cloud relationship.

It is true that the composition of clouds is essentially water vapour or water in a cloudy state. 

This awareness is evident in Gita where it is said that it is the Sun that pulls the water up and releases it back. The Sun here is as evident from different expressions in the Vedas and Vedic texts, includes many effects of the Sun including atmospheric temperatures. 

 Thus smoke forms clouds is not an accurate expression.

But certain smokes lead to acid rains is a contemporary observation. Certain smokes cause healthy rains was an ancient belief. Whether it is accurate or not to say that acid rains are caused by 'bad' clouds, when  acid forming elements are included in the view of a 'cloud' , it sounds reasonable to think that acid rains come from a bad cloud. In the same way the cloud that is believed to be participating in fertilizing rains can be viewed as a healthy cloud.  If an acid rain causing smoke generating activity is viewed as a bad activity, activity that is believed to lead to fertilizing rain can be believed to be a good activity. Parjanyah is the cloud and the fertilizing good effect getting added to it put together. 

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019, 9:02 PM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, Prof.Nagarajji for the explanation. Smoke is a mix of vapours, gases and fine particles whereas cloud is mass of water droplets suspended in air.  Smoke does not cause cloud. 

Thanks and regards,

Murthy

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 12:57, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

Your question was answered in a  greater detail  in a previous post in the present thread at 

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/6N4NpjuEolI/996zVvz5AgAJ

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 12:40 PM MVSSP AGNI <mvssp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Respected scholars,

      I feel all of you saw the Sanskrit movie Adi Shankaracharya (1983). In that movie while explaing to the question of veda vyasa mahamuni on the brahma sutra of sadhanadhyaya तदन्तर प्रतिपत्तौ the sage sankara explains the Chandaogya upanishad verse  असौवावलोको गौतमाग्निः -------------- वर्षस्संभवति ------------ यावदायुषं जीवति -- . I feel the procedure was explained there. 

In the following  link you may get the mantras along with the video of the movie.

https://youtu.be/BPeioteSOPU

Thank you. 

On Mon 8 Jul, 2019, 12:11 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri G S S Murthy-ji,

I was teaching while this conversation was going on. 

Your question was

> In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds? <

Answer: Fire-rituals produce smoke and this smoke forms into clouds. 

That is a well known observation.

On Mon, Jul 8, 2019 at 11:59 AM G S S Murthy <murt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Quoting an authority or a commentary is not what I am looking for. Just a commonsense cause-effect relationship.

Regards,

Murthy

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 11:29, Venkata Sriram <srira...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here, shrI madhusudana saraswathi gives further explanation:

अत्र कर्मोपयोगमाह यज्ञात्कारीर्यादेरग्निहोत्रादेश्चापूर्वाख्यात् धर्माद्भवति पर्जन्यः

Reference is given to कारीरेष्टि.

rgs,

sriram

On Monday, July 8, 2019 at 11:19:34 AM UTC+5:30, G S S Murthy wrote:

In the above diagram, how do fire-rituals cause clouds?

Regards,

Murthy

On Mon, 8 Jul 2019 at 10:32, Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Sri Nagaraj Paturi Ji,

Thanks a lot. I will take a deep look and may use your diagram for the class!

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

 If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive? 

should be :

if reptiles were created prior to human beings, how did they get water to survive, since they did not do any yajna (sacrifice).

 

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

On Thu, Jul 4, 2019 at 10:14 PM Krishna Kashyap <kkashy...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was teaching 3rd chapter Gita: Verse: yajnAt bhavati parjanyaha.

 - meaning "yajna" caises rains. Thanks to Prof Kannan's small paper on Yajna. that was very useful.

I was reading different vyakhyanas on this, stating a verse from : 'The oblations offered in fire reach the sun, and from the sun comes rain' (Manu, 3.76),  

Then come the questions: did it rain before human beings were created? if so how.

Somehow, this chakra or cycle, is interpreted in different ways and nothing seems complete and clear.

Some state (abhinava gupta) that Yajna is much deeper than this. Yajna is process of experience. Sense objects are offerings to Indriyas, which are Devathas. Parjanya in this commentary is taken to be the experiencer.

Some explain yajna as community work or in a way selfless work. Even though how can work cause rains? this is still a question.

I am looking for a deeper analysis of "Yajna" which is convincing to present day generation. in general and in particular to the chakra : annat bhavanti bhutani. I am l checking all the available commentaries on Gita.

If there is a thorough assessment of Yajna, it would be useful.

In wikipedia, However, connecting yajna as it is given in earlier texts such as:In the Upanishadic times, or after 500 BCE, states Sikora, the meaning of the term Yajna evolved from "ritual sacrifice" performed around fires by priests, to any "personal attitude and action or knowledge" that required devotion and dedication.^[6] The oldest Vedic Upanishads, such as the Chandogya Upanishad (~700 BCE) in Chapter 8, for example state,^[13]

अथ यद्यज्ञ इत्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव

 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येव यो ज्ञाता तं 
विन्दतेऽथ यदिष्टमित्याचक्षते ब्रह्मचर्यमेव
 तद्ब्रह्मचर्येण ह्येवेष्ट्वात्मानमनुविन्दते ॥ १ ॥

What is commonly called Yajna is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge,

  for only through the chaste life of a student does he who is a knower find that,

What is commonly called Istam (sacrificial offering) is really the chaste life of the student of sacred knowledge, 
  for only having searched with chaste life of a student does one find Atman (Soul, Self) || 1 ||

— Chandogya Upanishad 8.5.1 ^[13][14]

No matter what the commentary is, a clear understanding regarding how devathas shower rain when pleased by yajna, has to be clearly explained. If people were created prior to earlier forms of life like reptiles, how did they get water to survive?

In some commentaries, the next verse evam pravarthitam chakram nanuvartyati cha yah..... which indicates a cycle, is not very clear.

The explanation of cycle is not coherent.

OR it may be stated that devatas showering rains, due to yajnas cannot be understood scientifically or logically. just trust in vedas.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap

sarvam sri krishnarpanam astu

asmad gurubhyO namah

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BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

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FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

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[हर्षवर्धनः Harsha Wardhan]

Namaskar to all

Perusing the entire thread over the night, I have found much clarity on several issues, not just the yajna aspect of BG. This sort of deep collaborative discussions and learning on Indian knowledge is something rare, given today's environs, and we must take a moment to appreciate this. BVP is doing signal service here.

Just wanted to sum up the points discussed so far, for my own understanding + the benefit of future perusers:

1. Yajna-rain causal link can be best understood as a broad-strokes (but essentially true in causal and scientific terms, nevertheless) representation of an important ecological cycle that is fundamentally relevant to the proper understanding of the interconnectedness of several aspects of life - physical (re annam, food), mental (re right action, karma), and spiritual (supra-sensuous, re devas, brahman). In the BG, the illustration of the yajna-rain causal linkage is adduced as an ancillary point in a chain of illustrative links starting from 3.10, 3.11, 3.12, 3.13 thru 3.14 and 3.15, culminating in the introduction of the main point (3.16, and also 3.19), which is essentially that one must not forsake one's place in the greater cycle of existence and that one must keep performing one's proper activities sans sensory passion.

2. The force of conclusions of Indian knowledge cannot be gainsaid just because the thrust of Indian methodology is a bit different from what we are now familiar with (modern scientific methods). Yogipratyaksham (Sri Korada's point elsewhere, and also mentioned by Sri Karve in the thread) has played a central role in our ancestors' workings throughout, and while its output(s) may perhaps be un-appreciable or un-understandable to us today, due to their having been firstly, incomplete (historical depredations) and secondly, explained in archaic terminology/contexts, the outcomes, when properly perceived, are never erroneous, or in question. A skeptical attitude in dealing with traditional knowledge is healthy, but ab initio cynicism is unwarranted.

3. Every text has a context, as Dr TS Rukmani had mentioned elsewhere, and both have their place. If we seek to exegesize the BG's contents by disregarding its milieu, we will have incomplete understanding. So, while explaining the BG, or for that matter any Indian text, to a modern audience, we must also sensitize them to the context. That will necessitate some open-mindedness or flexibility (but not the abandoning of logic, reason or skepticism) on the part of the recipients. We must never seek to fit old concepts into contemporary frameworks without appreciating their respective contours first. Consensus ad idem is the principal thing here.

warm regards

Harsha

P.S: A personal message of appreciation to Dr Devanarayan Pattanayak was inadvertently sent to all earlier. Kindly excuse.

Best Regards,

Krishna Kashyap</