Chandas and its application in mantras

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear List Members,

With reference to the Ganapati atharvasirsha, the shloka mentions:

सैषा गणेशविद्या ।

गणक ऋषिः ।

निचृद्गायत्रीच्छन्दः ।

गणपतिर्देवता ।

ॐ गं गणपतये नमः 

Can some one explain how this is nichrt Gayatri chandas? Thanks.

Also in many tantric mantras without sufficient aksharas mention is made of chandas as in virat / gayatri etc.

How does this work? How is this meant to be applied?

In Vedic pronunciation, there is a clear pause between padas divided on the basis of chandas thereby altering rhythm.

How does the same apply when there are not enough aksharas to justify the chandas?

Venkat

[Niranjan Ni]

Is the mantra ॐ गं गणपतये नमः  or गं  ?

[Venkata Sriram]

तरेण ऋद्धम्....

Pls see the sAyaNa bhASya for this.

...........

https://archive.org/stream/15GanapatiAtharvaSirshaBhashyamSayana/15Ganapati%20Atharva%20Sirsha%20Bhashyam%20Sayana#page/n21/mode/2up

.............

rgs,

sriram

[Niranjan Ni]

Sorry I dont understand Sanskrit. Can you please give the gist?

Thanks.

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Niranjanji,

This is a strange statement.

What other interests you have useful to the member here?

Do you wish to learn Sanskrit?
BM  

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[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

It looks like the bhAShya is that of Pandit Vamanasastri. 

Ramakrishnan

--

[Balasubramanian Ramakrishnan]

BTW, the gAyatri is ekadantAyavidmahe vakratuNDAya dhImahi | tanno dantI pracodayAt | Not gaM or Om gaM. It doesn't look like the bhAShya link discusses the gAyatrI aspect, except to point this mantra out as the gAyatrI. (evaM gaNeshavidyAM pratipAdya gaNeshagAyatIM prakaTayannAha)

The meter is obtained by splitting  ekadantAyavidmahe |  vakratuNDAya dhImahi |  tanno dantI pracodayAt | 

There is an alternative recitation tradition where the first two pada-s are chanted together and that's followed here. That's my understanding. 

Ramakrishnan

--

[shankara]

Namaste,

Vamansastri is the editor of the Bhashya, not its author. He says in the preface that he made use of 5 different manuscripts for editing the text of Ganesatharvasirshabhashya and the commentator's name was not mentioned in any of them. 

regards
shankara

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Bijoyji,

What exactly do you find strange about my statement?

I have asked for a gist in English for my own understanding. My Sanskrit is very basic and in such an important matter I crave a little precision from learned people in the group.

Is that strange?

I am confused by your statement: "What other interests you have useful to the member here?"

Are you questioning my utility to the larger group? Or are you trying to sound out my competencies for your own understanding?

I can give you a clear reply once I understand your questions and their purpose better.

Warm Regards..N

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Sri Ni,

I would leave it to the moderators to explain what the group is about etc.

Since most is done in Sanskrit, such requests may come to every mail.

Possibly you go privately with the person you seek Translation etc.

Let me close here.

Thank you.

BM 

[Dr.BVK Sastry(G-MAIL)]

Namaste

 

1.    The specific ‘ involved’ question/s raised are clearly answered in the link provided , if only one cares to read the commentary fully and carefully, following  the guidance provided there in.  

 

        There is a  prerequisite  needed  to use ‘Chandas in Mantra –Application’ before one jumps to the ‘ practice, siddhis, broad shoulder comments on ‘textual  tradition and language’.  

 

        The guidance for Chandas and its application in mantras  comes from Shaunaka and flows in to a connected disciplines of Aagama , Tantra and Yogopanishads.

 

        All use ‘ Samskrutham’ as language of text. But ‘ Yoga’ portrayed in each case is different. Therefore there are different text- traditions.

 

2.    In the present case,  The vyaakhyaana on very next page of the debated text of ‘ Ganapathyatharva sheersha’  says :

 

       ‘sarvam, mantra-shaastroktavidhivat kaaryam, sheeghrasiddhi-pradatvaat’.  

       The instruction is for UTILITY –BENEFIT (VINIYOGA) .   Dr. Yadu has clearly mentioned this in several posts earlier. 

 

3.  In  the  construction used to  frame  the present debated post,  there  are  multiple error models  and modes; and a clear lack of ‘ integral understanding of the text- tradition- practice’, including the  very  text of the  commentary cited : 

 

       Ganesha Atharva Sheersha Upanishad is considered as a ‘DARSHANA’  ( Visioned – Heard ‘ Chandas).  The commentary is explaining how to get the UTILTY- APPLICATION BENEFIT (VINIYOGA) of the ‘ DARSHANA’.

      The  meaning of the term ‘Chandas’  in the context of ‘ DARSHANA/ SUKTA / Veda Mantra’  needs to be understood from the guidelines provided by Shaunaka .

      The meaning of the term ‘ Chandas’ in the context  of ‘ VINIYOGA / JAPA ‘  needs to be understood from the ‘ Mantra-Shaastra vidhi’ provided by  Tantra-Shaastra works.

      The TECHNICALITY OF SAMSKRUTHAM is different in each context.  The understanding of ‘ Taarena ruddham’ emerges from the very construction of the ‘ Sukta’ and is explained in the vyaakhyaana. 

 

4.   The errors  at the root of the   formulated  ‘question /  post , seeking clarity on ‘Chandas’ are to be seen in two ways :  

 

     First :  Inappropriate  model-porting  of  ‘Chandas’,   lacking clarity on  Vednaga  and   forced usage of Classical ‘ vrutta-ratnakara  models and scales’. ( Pingalas Vaidika Chandas is not complete text to cover the needs of Tantra - Viniyoga).  

     The analysis of Ganesha ‘ Nichrut Gaayatri chandas’  needs ‘Yoga’ mode of ‘ understanding ‘Samskrutham’.  

     The guidance starts from  ‘Articulation of Varna- Aksharas. This is  provided by appropriate sections of Shikshaa Shaastra’  and fine tuned to the specific ‘Aagama’ and ‘devataa’. 

     In this case, it is from shikshaas of Atharva veda – related Praatishaakhyas and then to the ‘ Aagama / Tantras’. 

    The final instruction is ‘ Articulation’ ( ucchaarana).

    Ruddham  is explained in commentary as  ‘ yuktam’ ( = Samyuktam = unified, not just articulated as a ‘ phoneme- conjunct).  With what? The ‘ taara’.  The commentator clearly says  that ‘taara’ is well known, and it is NOT explained.  Conventionally it stands  for ‘ Pranava’.  How to say  and unify ‘Pranava’ ?  Certainly  not a discussion theme for ‘ public group posts’ !

 

   We may be doubting and lacking details on the above issues  and practices; lack knowledgeable people to  provide instructions and demonstrate ‘Siddhis’ for analysis  in a ‘ Laboratory’ with ‘ test batch’  ; But the  available   text and commentary,  even now, is clear on  the above issues.  

 

   The next question that pops up would be : Can neuro-lingual  experiments be designed to test the text ? The answer is Yes. The ground for the design of the experiments needs to be by the guide lines of  ‘ Paninian Vedanga  linguistics’  and ‘ ‘ Human practitioners Body frame by Ayur-veda guidelines  for modeling’. This is  the frame in which the above Yoga-texts have emerged. 

 

   What we seem to have today as ‘  research in this area’ is  ‘ analyzing every four legged animal as a cow’ , because, that is what the machines can detect and deal with in measurement.  

 

   In other words, it is a call to study ‘ Samskrutham’ the way it was designed and used by the ancient writers as ‘ Vak-Yoga’, instead of asking the ancient writer to have imagined the ‘ internet –smart phone savvy   anglicized Sanskrit users needs’.

 

  Second is  challenge of ‘ Mantra construction and practice as ‘deficient and  deviant’  by the standards of choice works dealing with ‘chandas’ ? without clearly grasping what ‘Chandas’ in VINIYOGA means !

 

     The post reads:     Also in many tantric mantras without sufficient aksharas mention is made of chandas as in virat / gayatri etc.  How does this work? How is this meant to be applied?  With providing a logical argument base  constructed as <   In Vedic pronunciation, there is a clear pause between padas divided on the basis of chandas thereby altering rhythm.  How does the same apply when there are not enough aksharas to justify the chandas? >

 

   The answer for this is already present in the commentary and the ‘ original sukta’.

    In the original sukta, the technicality of ‘Dhyaana in Chakras’ is given.  This connects to ‘Tantra- Yoga’.

    In the commentary, the nature and process of mantra is given.  This explains the ‘ Language  and Yoga aspects of Mantra usage  in  Japa-Dhyaana.

 

          <    'evam ganaadim poorvam ucchrya'  ityaadi, ' taarena ruddham' ityantena sanketa - shruti-vaakya-pratipaadita mantram janaah na jnaasyanti, manda-buddhitvaat. > 

 

     The commentator goes on the instruction details on how the ‘sanketa-shruti’ =  'inner articulation and unification of sounds is to be practiced, as pointed to in the Shruti'. 

 

     The articulation of ' anusvaaraotttaram binduh, saanunaasikatvaat' - is nazalised aunsvaara. The ‘ chandra-bindu’ script-symbols does not  represent this properly. 

 

     Then comes the 'yoga-part' reading 'eteshaam  bhinaanaam, gakaaraadi chaturnaam, sandhaanam ekeekarana-saadhanam  naadah...>

 

     These are to be learnt as ‘ internal Voice processes’ ( Anatar- Uccharana). Therefore, the role of ‘ ear and mental effort to identify the  ‘ inner rhythm slots and beats’  needs a different way of understanding the instruction for practice. An  analogy may be helpful to explain the above text. 

 

       When vegetables ( = Varna- Aksharas of mantra)  are used  to prepare soup  ( = mantra –siddhi, where word ends up as materialized object and or action),  the  first step is  chop the vegetables  and then  soft boil;  It is a process in time and work with vessels, heat ( =  Tapas / Taapa / Taapinee upanishads)  . Depending on the efficient processing,  one may / can see veggie pieces clearly floating in the soup bowl.

 

      On other hand,  in preparing the  ‘ Saambaar’ ( south indian variety, over boiled veggies with all spicy ingredients), everything coalesces and recognition of individual veggie  piece and taste becomes difficult. 

 

      This  ‘process’  difference of ‘ Soup and Saambaar’ , where different vegetables are treated differently and end up differently   is the essence of  the terms  ‘sandhih – sammelanam – samhitaa’  (= Bring Together -  Integrate and Unify through the process – Final Outcome to be  auspicious, aesthetic and   good  as intended ) is to be learnt as a practice of ‘ inner voice construction and instruction. 

      The success depends on  students competence in practice to understand  ‘Ganesha Vidyaa’. The text reads: <  eteshaam naada-preritaanaam sandhih  sammelanam samhitaa, yathaaa krama-uccharana-yogya-saamarthyaat>  

 

4. Why all this  complicated exercise and secrecy ? ?  Why Ganesha for any one ?? Why Ganehsa Vidyaa ??

 

    The answer is again given in the commentary ! The text reads <  Ganesha vidyaa Ganesha Jnaana-pradaa;   mantraatmaka- ganesha-moortimaya japasya 'Ganesha-santushti-kaarakatvaat' >   

 

                       This ‘Ganesha Vidyaa  yields the ‘ KNOWLEDGE OF Ganesha’.  

 

                       The ‘Ganesha’s  constitution at this point is ‘ mantraatmaka’ = the ‘mantra-body’.  (Is it the fifth panchabhoota – aakaasha Guna / aakaasha shareeram Brahma – is a question for Vedantins  to explore . The

                        upanishat says ‘ Tvameva pratyaksham Brahma’  for ‘Ganesha’. This is Vedic; and Yoga based.

 

                      The material based stone icon detailing/ Dhaatu- garbha’ is to be learnt from Aagama works.  The yogas by Texts, Traditions, Practices, instructions and benefits are different.  

 

                      When Yogas differ, Samskrutham also differs. When Teaming, process, elements are different, the outcome is uniquely different. One Ganesha becomes ‘ Ashta- moorthy/ vinayaka…….’  )

 

                     In the present context, what is achieved by saadhaka through ‘Vedic Ganesha Vidyaa’ ?   It is ‘ Ganesha – Santushti- kaaraka’ :

                      The cause to experience  ‘aanada /bliss’ of the ‘ devataa – magnitude of Ganesha; Ganesha – Happiness’.  

 

                     Like ‘ the magnitude of aananda by different lokas and residents of that level.  ( devaanaam, aajaanajaanaam anadah….)

 

5.       A poor translation of the term ‘ Ganesha Santushti -  kaaraka ’ would be ‘ systems and methods, artifacts and rituals  to Please  Ganesha ’ ( and seek a favor).

 

           And outcome :  external practices of ‘Faith and worship to please a physical entity by the iconic identification nomenclature called ‘Ganesha’.

           Further consequences : Total confusion on how ‘Ganesha is different from Vinayaka, Vigneswara , gajaanana, Paarvatinandana…….’    And  psycho-linguistic analysis of Ganesha’s Trunk as a limp phallus in the academic circles ! 

           Does it mean ‘ Ganesha Temple /Mandir/ Moorthy worship is wrong ?  No!  The technicality and authorization for this comes from different class of works called ‘ aagama and Tantra’; the intention and goals are different.  It is a totally different science of   aagama – tantra – puranas   detailing  ‘ Devataa – Viniyoga’.  Aplication- Utility of Devataas  through ‘ DEVATAA –PREETI’. This is the very core ‘ religion-culture of Hinduism’ seeking exchange of favors from Devataas’.  This is different from the pursuit of ‘ ‘ devataa – tattva – jijnyaasaa’ : : seeking the truth  of ‘Devataa’ :: ( Kathopanishat – devaih api atra vichikitsitam ….  Even Gods  have less clarity .. on ‘ Brahma’ … )

 

        What then is bad  in current question ?  Quest is right. Question-Analytics frames need correction for the  Inappropriate mixing of  ‘Veda – aagama – Tantra’ . 

        Why ? Try tasting a mix of soup and  coffee and coke using the logic : Both pass through the same mouth and enter the same stomach !

 

      Thus goes the sliding scale of ‘Ganesha – Samskrutham’, the scribe who was conditioned to understand every  word and letter before scribing it !

 

Regards

BVK Sastry     

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Sri Niranjan-ji,

It is not surprising that Prof. Bijoy Misra was surprised at your

>  Sorry I dont understand Sanskrit. Can you please give the gist?

in a Sanskrit related forum. 

Later, you said that your Sanskrit is basic. 

If you said that in the beginning itself, this conversation could have been avoided. 

Prof. Misra suggested to you to learn Sanskrit /improve your Sanskrit.

Please take it in the right spirit and please improve from your basic Sanskrit.   

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[Bijoy Misra]

My observation has been that it takes about ten to fifteen years to develop comprehension of technical concepts.

Hence we have to narrow down what we can absorb such that we may immerse ourselves in the studies.  

Superficial learning would sublimate easily.  We should try to hold on to the concepts such that we may build some 

internal understanding.  Hence we need to develop focus about what we may acquire that we can retain.  Learning

becomes useful when it enables us to contribute.  Making efforts to contribute would exhibit us our internal inconsistency

leading us to further immersion.  We learn not to jump but to walk diligent small steps.

These are my suggestions to new researchers..

BM 

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

--

[Ravi Kumar]

While Sri Niranjan could have asked for a English gist in a more humble manner, Sri Bijoy ji could have put his point across in a less abrasive manner too. In my opinion, his statement came across as condescending and supercilious. 

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Sri Nagaraj-ji,

I have no problems with learning Sanskrit at all. I merely asked for an elucidation of what was a very cryptic message to me atleast. It is my understanding that lesser lights like us get to learn about things we are not aware of from Vidvans who have read widely and have practiced. I did not anywhere find an expert understanding of Sanskrit to be a pre-requisite to membership at this group. 

I was therefore nonplused when he wrote that cryptic sentence.

I am deeply thankful for the varied informed views being shared in this forum.

Regards,

N

[Niranjan Ni]

Dear Sri Ravikumar ji,

I wrote: "Sorry I dont understand Sanskrit. Can you please give the gist?"

Did you note the words please? and Sorry?

What do you expect me to add to that sentence to show that I am humble?

Would a flourish and a curtsy do?

Please do not read unwarranted things into other peoples' messages. It is to avoid precisely this that I asked for an explanation from Sri Bijoy ji.

Kind Regards,

N 

[Bijoy Misra]

The problem is not the question, the problem is to reduce a sound-driven comprehension

to homogenize in a different language.  Sanskrit lives in its sounds and asking for a meaning

is what we need to avoid.  The meaning would appear through listening.

This distortion has been the major part of reducing Sanskrit to a language as done in the west.

It is dhvani that we capture and interpret.  It is natural human speech not by pre-made words! 

But this is not the right discussion in BVP,  in my opinion.

BM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear all,

Let us stop this unnecessary digression here. 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

Can we stop this unwarranted digression please. 

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[L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

Sorry to say sorry to say but the discussion went in the wrong direction so Mr Venkata V Raghavan is asking about how the tantric mantras for the tantrik beaches can be stated as some Chanda without having the aksharas that meant to be as per the vedic chadas sastra. So the main question arises here does the vedic chandas apply to Tantra also?

[Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

As per the oldest text of the Atharvashirsha The mantra said there was Om Gam

On Sun 8 Jul, 2018, 8:46 PM L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali, <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry to say sorry to say but the discussion went in the wrong direction so Mr Venkata V Raghavan is asking about how the tantric mantras for the tantrik beaches can be stated as some Chanda without having the aksharas that meant to be as per the vedic chadas sastra. So the main question arises here does the vedic chandas  apply to Tantra also?

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[L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

[Nagaraj Paturi]

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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[Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

Thankyou nagaraj ji.

Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

On Mon 9 Jul, 2018, 12:55 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

> Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

For example?

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thankyou nagaraj ji.

Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

On Mon 9 Jul, 2018, 12:55 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

The tantric moola mantra's have chanda names used for vedic mantras without have the number of aksharas as per the chandas sastra... There are many examples. I have just attached few

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

On Mon 9 Jul, 2018, 1:28 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

For example?

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thankyou nagaraj ji.

Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

On Mon 9 Jul, 2018, 12:55 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Niranjan Ni]

Nagaraj-ji - some examples of Tantric mantras in Vedic chandas:

Svapneshvari devata in Brhati,

Ucchista and other Ganapati mantras exist in Virat and Gayatri chandas

Chinnamasta in pankti and so on.

On Monday, July 9, 2018 at 1:28:33 PM UTC+5:30, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:

> Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

For example?

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thankyou nagaraj ji.

Then why do the tantrik  beejas have the names of vedic chandas.

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

On Mon 9 Jul, 2018, 12:55 PM Nagaraj Paturi, <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

I said 

'If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  '

Tantra using Vaidika Chchandas seems to be the third type. 

This is interesting.  

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[Bijoy Misra]

From our paper

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 3:25 AM Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

छदि संवरणे is Yaaska's etymology for Chandas. 

छंदांसि छादनात्

As per this, the very function of Chandas  is to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र .

Tantra has its own ways of securing the  देवता of the  मंत्र .

If a Taantrika uses Vaidika mantras he uses Chandas  to hold/secure the देवता of the (वैदिक) मंत्र . But in the Taantrika part Chandas is not his way of holding/securing the   देवता of the  मंत्र  . 

 

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 10:39 AM, L N Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali <mlngo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Having said that the Tantra doesn't follow the vedic chanda's so the question arises here that does Tantra have any other Chandra Shastra?

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Sir,

As moderator can you please remove all unrelated posts so that it does not detract from the main discussion including this one?

Thanks,

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The system does not provide for management removing posts from a thread. 

That is why moderators keep asking members not post digressing messages. 

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[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

किम् बहुना - प्रणवस्य ऋषिर्ब्रह्मा, देवी-गायत्री छन्दः, परमात्मा देवता इति ननु न्यसामः!?

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Sri Vishvas ji:

I think it is Daivi Gayatri chandas not Devi Gayatri chandas ..as per chandas shastra Daivi gayatri is the chandas for single syllable schemas.

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[Krishnan S]

You have mentioned "Daivi  Gayatri"  refers to one-syllabled chandas schemas.

And also in the South, we mention that "Bhoo" like seven vyaahrities belong to the followong chandas::: "Gayatri", "Ushnik", "Anushtub" "Brahati" , "Pankt", "Thrushtub" and "Jagat" 

I am interested to kniw how the vyaahriitiies are related to the above chandas

Krishnan

On Thu, 9 Aug 2018, 22:04 venkat veeraraghavan, <vvenk...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sri Vishvas ji:

I think it is Daivi Gayatri chandas not Devi Gayatri chandas ..as per chandas shastra Daivi gayatri is the chandas for single syllable schemas.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 6:33 PM, विश्वासो वासुकेयः <vishvas...@gmail.com> wrote:

किम् बहुना - प्रणवस्य ऋषिर्ब्रह्मा, देवी-गायत्री छन्दः, परमात्मा देवता इति ननु न्यसामः!?

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018 at 6:55:27 PM UTC+5:30, venkat veeraraghavan wrote:

Dear List Members,

With reference to the Ganapati atharvasirsha, the shloka mentions:

सैषा गणेशविद्या ।

गणक ऋषिः ।

निचृद्गायत्रीच्छन्दः ।

गणपतिर्देवता ।

ॐ गं गणपतये नमः 

Can some one explain how this is nichrt Gayatri chandas? Thanks.

Also in many tantric mantras without sufficient aksharas mention is made of chandas as in virat / gayatri etc.

How does this work? How is this meant to be applied?

In Vedic pronunciation, there is a clear pause between padas divided on the basis of chandas thereby altering rhythm.

How does the same apply when there are not enough aksharas to justify the chandas?

Venkat

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[Gowtham Sarma Mahamkali]

Thank you

Dear scholars whoever reply to this topic

Not only the vyharuthees but also the tanric beejas & moola mantras are given with the names of vedic chandas without having the syllabus count.

Anybody who had a good knowledge in both tantra and chanda should let us know what's the point.

Thankyou

M L N GOWTHAM SARMA
ATHARVA VEDA PANDIT
SRI AMARESHWARA SWAMI DEVASTANAM
AMARAVATHI - ANDHRA PRADESH
#09494157441

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Sri Krishnan ji:

the daivi gayatri is mentioned in pingala's chandashastra a book I saw at Sri Gowtham Sarmaji's home.

I am not clear how the 7 vyahritis are matched with 7 chandas and 7 Rshis.

In many commentaries the bhu, bhuvah and svah /suvah are matched with Rg, Yaju and Sama Vedas. It is possible (I am speculating here) that there are mantras in the chandas mentioned that correlate with each vyahriti. So the vyahriti is technically not a bija and cannot be subject to application of chandas rules for single syllable bijas. Again each vyahriti correlates to a particular loka/ plane of existence / experience. These would be the higher planes corresponding to the 7 lower planes: atala, vitala..patala.

In the SYV Madyandina shakha the schema of Rshis is different compared to KYV. Although Jamadagni is essentially Bhargava gotra there is significant re-arrangement in terms of which vyahriti is matched with which Rshi.

I would appreciate it if any of the vidvans in the list can throw more light on the above.

Wrt Tantra I have asked in this list before and have not received clarification on why they use vedic chandas like gayatri, anushtup, etc 

The tantric mantras corresponding to these chandas however do not have the requisit syllables to justify that chandas.

One reason for this could be the difference in shiksha methodology: The Vedas follow Paniniya/ Naradiya/Mandukya shiksha while the tantric shiksha is received directly from mouth of Guru. Again this is speculative only.

Regards,

V

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