Dual number in Sanskrit.

[Achyut Karve]

Respected Scholars,

What will be the effect if the dual number in Sanskrit is dropped? Does the dual number serve grammatical purpose? Modern formal languages do without the dual number.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

Most of us here have a clarity in this regard. 

We have our answers for these questions.

Before we set out to respond,

-you mentioned in one of your recent mails that you are currently studying Sanskrit with a guru.

Did you put these questions to him?

What were his answers?

Did you ponder over these? If yes, what are your thoughts?

If you have no prior thoughts either from your teacher or from yourself, please let us know that.

We can start conversing based on this foundation.

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

[G S S Murthy]

Prof Paturiji has said, "Most of us here have a clarity in this regard."

May I ask, "who is "us", Sirs, here?"

Regards,

Murthy 

My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/index.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot.com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

[Nagaraj Paturi]

'Us' refers to those of the members who Sri Acgyut-ji expected to be able to answer.  

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/samskrita/asYMQx4IzAE/G7qhskS7N-YJ;context-place=searchin/samskrita/dual$20number%7Csort:relevance

[Nagaraj Paturi]

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/samskrita/asYMQx4IzAE/A0H6kuvPG0cJ

[Nagaraj Paturi]

1. Some modern Spoken Sanskrit courses propose to remove dual number from  the course.

2. Each language has its idiom. Dual number is part of Sanskrit idiom. English and some Europen languages have articles. What is the answer to the question 'what happens to those languages if we remove articles from them. Gender is grammatical in Sanskrit and semantic in south Indian languages. What happens to these languages if we remove the type of gender they have? 

3. Minimum size of a group is a pair. Pair , as such an interesting idea of cognition. To have a facility in language to express that interesting thought category gives a great feeling. 

[Venkata Sriram]

Now, slowly, 'युष्मद्' is also disappearing and is being replaced with 'भवत्'.  Most of the samskruta bhArati students are using this  'भवत्' which is being generalised and freely used irrespective of age factor. 

In the name of sarala samskrutam, some words are being deleted.

regs,

sriram

[V N Jha]

In Sanskrit there are three distinct Forms for singular , dual, and plural and a grammar of the language must account for them. Grammar describes and does not prescribe. Hence no room for such thoughts for dropping or adding any element.

VNJha

Prof. V N Jha,
Former Director, Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune, Pune-411007, India.

Residence
C-3, 402 Kunal Icon, Pimple Saudagar, Pune-411027

Phone; 91-20-27201458(R)
Mobile : 09890215441

[Shrikant Jamadagni]

Samskrita Bharati has not/ is not abandoning dual!! This is complete falsehood.

They drop it in their 10 day spoken sanskrit course ONLY. Please see their study-at-home course syllabus. It is the best of its kind. 

regards

 

Shrikant Jamadagni
Bengaluru

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My web site : http://murthygss.tripod.com/in dex.htm
and also my Sanskrit blog :

http://simplesanskrit.blogspot .com/

http://gssmurthy.blogspot.com

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Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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Prof. V N Jha,
Former Director, Centre of Advanced Study in Sanskrit, University of Pune, Pune-411007, India.

Residence
C-3, 402 Kunal Icon, Pimple Saudagar, Pune-411027

Phone; 91-20-27201458(R)
Mobile : 09890215441

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[vasantkumar bhatt]

If some one removes the dual number in Sanskrit, how can we will enjoy the beautiful expression of  the Kumarasambhavam :- उमामुखे बिम्बफलाधरोष्ठे व्यापारयामास विलोचनानि  !!!

Vasantkumar M Bhatt 

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy smartphone.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Pautriji,

Which Indian formal language shares this characteristic of dual number in noun, pronoun and verb forms?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

On Sep 9, 2017 9:39 PM, "Achyut Karve" <achyut...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear Paturiji,

Subsequent thought has cleared my understanding.

राम: राम: च रामौ
And
राम: रामौ च रामा:

Thus राम: रामौ रामा:  form a Samhita like Word assembly.  If the dual number is removed राम: रामा: do not retain the Samhita form.

However Sanskrit has dual forms for each of the seven cases of nouns and pronouns as well as dual number for verbs in all the persons.

Which other Indo-European language shares this characteristic?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Subsequent thought has cleared my understanding.

राम: राम: च रामौ
And
राम: रामौ च रामा:

Thus राम: रामौ रामा:  form a Samhita like Word assembly.  If the dual number is removed राम: रामा: do not retain the Samhita form.

However Sanskrit has dual forms for each of the seven cases of nouns and pronouns as well as dual number for verbs in all the persons.

Which other Indo-European language shares this characteristic?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Which Indian formal language shares this characteristic of dual number in noun, pronoun and verb forms?

I do not know what a formal language means.

No other Indian language , to my knowledge , has dual number. 

Was that just a jijnaasaa, or you want to make a point out of this? 

If you want to make a point, please go ahead. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

>However Sanskrit has dual forms for each of the seven cases of nouns and pronouns as well as dual number for verbs in all the persons.

>Which other Indo-European language shares this characteristic?

---- I shared a link to a thread on another forum where a similar question was discussed. 

Did you go through the thread ?

The very second post , i.e., the very first reply there was by Sri Vishnu Shaastrii-ji. It is as follows: 

Dear Ramakrishnan,

Yes, Classical (ancient) Greek has singular, dual and plural forms for nouns, adjectives and verbs. For example, the word for “man” is anthropos (ἄνθρωπος) and its nominative case forms in all three numbers are:

ἄνθρωπος        ἀνθρώπω         ἄνθρωποι

The first person singular, dual and plural number, present tense, active voice, indicative mood forms for the verb “educate” paideuo (παιδεύω) are:

παιδεύω           παιδεύετον      παιδεύομεν

In a more modern time frame (approximately between 800 – 1200 AD) Old English had a dual number for nouns but not for verbs! We see those dual forms in “Beowulf” and other Old English literature.

विष्णुः

In the same thread, Sri Vardhan-ji pointed to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_%28grammatical_number%29

Again,

Was that just a jijnaasaa, or you want to make a point out of this? 

If you want to make a point, please go ahead. 

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

How did the Greeks derive the singular dual and plural forms of nouns pronouns verbs and adjectives for different word/root endings.

Sanskrit has an elaborate system of grammar to achieve this.  Did the Greeks also have it? 

Formal Indian languages mean modern written Indian regional languages.

Did prakrits like ardhamagadhi and Pali also retain the dual number of Sanskrit?

Can losing the dual form be interpreted as a process of simplification of language?

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

> How did the Greeks derive the singular dual and plural forms of nouns pronouns verbs and adjectives for different word/root endings.

--------------It is viewed in this case as the retaining a certain feature of the  Proto-Indo-European by some of its members while the remaining members of the IE family lost it.

> Sanskrit has an elaborate system of grammar to achieve this.  Did the Greeks also have it? 

--------------The wisdom that grammar does not produce language/words , it only analyses the language/words was expressed , way back by Ptanjali in his Mahabhashya. (He says, one goes to a potter requesting him to make a pot so that one may use it; but one does not go to a grammarian with the request to make new words so that one may use them. ) So Sanskrit did not achieve dual number through its elaborate system of grammar. Its elaborate system of grammar analysed the dual number which was already there in the language. Similarly Greeks do not need any grammar book to 'achieve' their dual number. Dual number existed in their language just as it existed in Sanskrit. It is a different thing that they had a grammar of their language. That was called techne grammatike  (The art of writing) . That book is attributed to Dionysius Thrax. 

>Did prakrits like ardhamagadhi and Pali also retain the dual number of Sanskrit?

--------------Pali lost the dual number. It is understood as a result of change of au into o. 

>Can losing the dual form be interpreted as a process of simplification of language?

--------------It could be seen as change of the cultural cognition. 

[Kalicharan Tuvij]

नमस्ते,

Dual numbers are not accidental to Sanskrit. Far from it, dual numbers contain very deep secrets of Sanskrit that are fundamental to understanding the true nature (and standing) of the language.

I believe currently we lack tools to sufficiently persue or communicate these ideas, though no doubt in future all this will be common knowledge.

KT

[Nagaraj Paturi]

That is what I called cultural cognition. Bhartrihari calls Dharma. 

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[Dr. T. Ganesan]

उमामुखे बिम्बफलाधरोष्ठे is in locative case --सप्तमी -- and there is no dual number in this expression.



Ganesan

On 09-09-2017 21:12, vasantkumar bhatt wrote:

[vasantkumar bhatt]

साधूक्तं भवद्भिः । किन्तु विचारणीय-स्थानमन्यत्रैव ।

विलोचनानीति पदे बहुवचनं वर्तते । अत्र यदि संस्कृतभाषातो द्विवचनं निष्कास्यते, तर्हि विलोचनानीति बहुवचनान्तं पदमपि द्वित्वस्यैव वाचकं भवेत् । महाकविः कालिदासस्तु "शंकरेण लोचनत्रयम्  उमामुखे बिम्बफलाधरोष्ठे व्यापारितमिति व्यनक्ति । एतादृशी व्यंजना तदैवाकारिता स्यात् यदा संस्कृते द्विवचनं स्यात् ।।

वसन्तो भट्टः ।

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Scholars,

Is there any book on comparative study between sanskrit and ancient Greek.

With regards,
Achyut Karve

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[Nagaraj Paturi]

A Comparative Grammar of Sanskrit, Greek and Latin: In Two Volumes, Volume 1

By William Hugh Ferrar

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=QQNCAAAAIAAJ&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Thanks a lot for your reference.  Are there books published on the subject after this  one?  If any kindly let me know.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

Gradually these studies developed into more complex Indo-European family studies. There is a lot published. But the writing style demands a background in Historical Linguistics. 

If you are looking for a specific issue from these sources, please share the question. 

We luckily have stalwarts on the list. You will get the guidance. 

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Karve,

     Please take a look at this webpage:

https://www.quora.com/Are-there-languages-other-than-Sanskrit-which-in-addition-to-the-singular-and-plural-have-a-dual-number

The author's initial paragraph is important:

"Far from being unique among languages in expressing a grammatical dual, Sanskrit is merely one among probably hundreds of languages that has some sort of special form (whether productive or not) to express two of something.  I quickly put together a custom World Atlas of Language Structures map with the available data showing the geographic distribution of languages with duals."

Madhav Deshpande

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Madhav Deshpandeji,

I greatly value your comments on the subject.  However we cannot forget/overlook the fact that Sanskrit was a language of शिष्ट. 
This means a lot to me. 
I have been associated with the Tabla for long.  It's literature which evolved through a parampara of a select community  (शष्ट)  has thrown up unique modes of recitation.  A study of which have been presented in my book 'Unveiling the Atlantis of Sanskrit Phonology'.  The same is true of Indian classical Music which has evolved from various vedic traditions.  Nowhere in the world one sees something similar to our classical music.  Music the world over is rendered in tempered scale which has evolved through mathematical computation.  Indian Music has evolved through speech and hence the evolution of ragas which are unique to Indian classical music.

It is this study that is giving me the impetus to dig more and more on account of, if I may say, a seeming parallel between the two.

Sanskrit if I am not mistaken did not evolve as a mother tongue of a people.  It appears to have evolved for a specific as well as special purpose.  As a result not only did its literature (here purpose) evolve but together with it its rules popularly called grammar.

To put such a language as Sanskrit side by side with languages which evolved from spoken tongues is to me unjust if not criminal.

Be as it may I feel highly obliged by the support you as well as your colleagues are rendering in this endeavour of mine.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear Shri Karve,

     I hope you will read Patañjali's Mahābhāṣya more carefully.  Especially his commentary on Kātyāyana's Vārttika: सिद्धे शब्दार्थसम्बन्धे लोकत: अर्थप्रयुक्ते शास्त्रेण धर्मनियम: यथा लौकिकवैदिकेषु.  The language is used naturally by the people, and the grammarians do not create the language.  They merely point out which usages are correct and which are not.  तद्यथा - घटेन कार्यं करिष्यन् कुम्भकारकुलं गत्वा आह - कुरु घटं कार्यमनेन करिष्यामि इति । न तद्वत् शब्दान् प्रयुयुक्षमाणः वैयाकरणकुलं गत्वा आह - कुरु शब्दान् प्रयोक्ष्ये इति । तावत्येव अर्थम् उपादय शब्दान् प्रयुञ्जते ।  Further, if you are asking for a comparative study of Sanskrit and Greek, you should be open to view Sanskrit in a broader context of all languages.  

Madhav Deshpande

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

I while reading the first anhik of the Mahabhashya interpreted the following reference differently.

(He says, one goes to a potter requesting him to make a pot so that one may use it; but one does not go to a grammarian with the request to make new words so that one may use them. )

Though words are used to express meaning without fore thought yet it is grammar that seives these words and determines which are those that are capable of conveying meaning.  Thus apart from one conveying meaning it also results in one's upliftment.  Patanjali also opines that grammar defines rules only for words (शब्द )  and not of non words (अपशब्द).  Thus Sanskrit Grammar does not talk of rules for a particular language but general rules applicable for language in general because it deals with words. The first sentence of Mahabhashya reads अथ शब्दानुशासनम्  and not अथ संस्कृत शब्दनुशासनम्. Thus grammars other than Sanskrit may be said to be grammars of non words.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Madhav Deshpandeji,

Thanks for your comment.  I will go through the commentary on the three vartikas in greater detail and come back.

As far as comparative study of sanskrit and greek is concerned I would be happy to understand what you meant by 'broader context'?

The theme of this thread is dual number.  The presence of dual number in a language increases the number of suffixes one and a half times that if the language only had singular and plural.

I have been made to know that there are only 21 possible suffixes for nouns and pronouns and 27 for verbs. (Kindly correct me if I am wrong) What I was figuring out in Ancient Greek was the nature of suffixes, the way they are suffixed and their number.  Are they mechanically suffixed or does the word and the suffix need to undergo modification as is the case with Sanskrit? 

To my knowledge in Indian regional languages they are mechanically suffixed.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Dear Sri Achyut-ji,

The feature of Sanskrit that you are trying to discuss is technically called inflection. Please go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inflection

Sanskrit is a fusional language. Please go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language

The other contrasting feature you are trying to discuss as 'mechanically suffixed.' is called agglutination. Please go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutination

South Indian languages are agglutinative languages. Please go through https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agglutinative_language

You were enquiring 'Are they mechanically suffixed or does the word and the suffix need to undergo modification as is the case with Sanskrit? '

That means you want to know whether Greek is fusional or agglutinative. 

You have the answer in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fusional_language

[Nagaraj Paturi]

The distinction of Sanskrit, why that language is seen as Daivii Vaak, what is special with that language according to Patanjali and Bhartrihari etc., are discussed in the thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/bvparishat/daivi$20vak%7Csort:relevance/bvparishat/ImifT-EKf2Q/s5ijdP4w-Y0J

Particularly the posts:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/ImifT-EKf2Q/XL5utoPQiW8J

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/ImifT-EKf2Q/TKFyn6h95vMJ 

[Janardana Hegde]

नमांसि,

 द्विवचनं स्लोवेनियन्-भाषायाम् अपि दृश्यते । तत्रत्याः तद्विषये कमपि क्लेशं न अनिभवन्ति । विवरणम् संलगितम् अस्ति ।

- जनार्दन हेगडे

[Rajkumari Trikha]

Dial number is in Russian language too

--

[Achyut Karve]

Dear Paturiji,

Thank you very much for your references.  It is helping me understand languages better.

With regards,
Achyut Karve.