Support rajiv by petition

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

Dear all
Please. Support rajiv in  his fight against a petition by indologists led by one jesse knutson to harper collins for withdrawal of his books on the basis plagiarism allegation of  7 sentences of whatsoever importance in whole book.

 

I have not read what Rajiv has said, and probably will not, but going on discussion on indology list and Rajiv's www replies it appears that charges levelled against him are too trivial.

 

I am not claiming that  he is a great master or scholar. but it is our duty to support someone who is fighting for our cause.

 

 

it is important to protect the freedom of speech at all levels so

prof aklujkar noted "This must be the first time in human history that one or two missed quotation marks [actually seven italics mine] led to a petition for not publishing an author’s books"

I request all our members to support it by going to link below.

 

https://www.change.org/p/publishers-of-rajiv-malhotra-s-books-do-not-yield-to-mafia-pressure-tactics-that-seek-to-compromise-intellectual-freedom.

It appears that some outraged people of colonial mindset (in US and Euro) want to supress him since he is the first person to take fight against them to new hight and their own court and wanted to expose hidden agenda of these people.

 

this petition is supported by only 200 people (but it shows that most of the names found in the petition appear to be indian, in ths list of reasons for supporting, I dont know if other indolgoists are involed or not)  from 600 odd members of indology forum. this means most of indologists are sane and dont want to support this nonsence petition.

 

some examples of these people's  hatred for Rajiv are selected from indology list 

 

Jesse Knutson, who wrote petition for withdrawal, wrote "I don’t see how any skepticism can be entertained that Rajiv Malhotra has plagiarized Nicholson’s book. This is the lowest level of academic dishonesty that would lead to a university student failing a class, and/or facing other disciplinary measures. It is pathetic, and the arrogance of Malhotra to identify himself with a tradition on purely racial grounds is both racist and absurd. He is a practitioner of the lowest level of identity politics, an uncultivated, utter fool."

 

Al Collins said "Malhotra is clearly experienced by most scholars on this list and RISA as a form of "plague," someone so far beyond the pale (sic!) that he needs to be definitively suppressed, squelched, cast into outer darkness, to use just a few of many available clichés for what seems to most responders here to be obvious"

 

 

Robert Zydenbose  wrote  "For years Mr
Malhotra has made himself known internationally as a viciously
aggressive ethnocentric pamphleteer without the slightest scholarly
substance or merit of note, attacking persons intercontinentally who
have committed their professional lives to the study of aspects of the
culture of India and to a deepening of academic knowledge about Indian
culture. These indications of blatant plagiary demonstrate Mr Malhotra's
profound lack of scholarly as well as, especially, moral substance and
deserve to be widely publicized."

 

petition by indologists led by one jesse knutson

 

https://www.change.org/p/harper-collins-india-in-view-of-the-widespread-plagiarism-found-in-rajiv-malhotra-s-book-indra-s-net-published-by-harper-collins-india-we-call-on-the-publisher-to-make-a-formal-public-apology-and-to-withdraw-the-book-from-the-market?recruiter=5167386&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=copylink

 

Nicholson on Rajiv is found here

http://scroll.in/article/742022/upset-about-rajiv-malhotras-plagiarism-even-more-upset-about-distortions-of-my-work

 

 

 Rajiv's rejoinder

http://www.niticentral.com/2015/07/18/rajiv-malhotra-has-a-rejoinder-to-andrew-nicholson-324312.html

 

http://www.firstpost.com/ideas/wendys-revenge-plagiarism-charge-rajiv-malhotra-red-herring-2349804.html

 

I hope you enjoy it. expect a full artcle by me on this subject.

[Rakesh Das]

I have signed the petition and shared it on facebook (public profile).

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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इत्थं सश्रद्धं निवेदयति
राकेश दाशः

Rakesh Das
Asst. Professor
Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
Ramakrishna Mission Vivekananda University
Belur Math Howrah.

वंशीविभूषितकरान्नवनीरदाभात्
पीताम्बरादरुणबिम्बफलाधरोष्ठात्।
पूर्णेन्दुसुन्दरमुखादरविन्दनेत्रात्
कृष्णात्परं किमपि तत्त्वमहं न जाने।।
भारत माता की जय

[Jsr Prasad]

Very heartening to note that this has appeared in the list and Prof. Pandurangi would write an article over the issue. What is more pleasing is that Prof. Aklujkar has also seriously responded on the allegations! You must be aware of the following rebuttals of various lovers of sanatana dharma. For information only. Rajeev Malhotra refers to 'intellectual Kshatriyas.' I recall the words of Parashurama - 'इदं ब्राह्मम् इदं क्षात्रम् ।'

Wendy's revenge: Plagiarism charge against Rajiv Malhotra is a red herring by Rajeev Srinivasan: http://www.firstpost.com/ideas/wendys-revenge-plagiarism-charge-rajiv-malhotra-red-herring-2349804.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Plagiarism charge: Why Rajiv Malhotra is on the gunsights of western Indologists by, R. Jagannathan - http://m.firstpost.com/india/rajiv-malhotras-net-plagiarism-charge-shows-no-longer-man-ignore-2349652.html

Circular Firing Squad of Flying Attack Monkeys Target Rajiv Malhotra by Atanu Dey - http://www.deeshaa.org/2015/07/17/circular-firing-squad-of-flying-attack-monkeys-target-rajiv-malhotra/

A review of allegations levelled against RM - https://traditionresponds.wordpress.com/

I signed the petition.

Regards

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dear all
Please. Support rajiv in  his fight against a petition by indologists led by one jesse knutson to harper collins for withdrawal of his books on the basis plagiarism allegation of  7 sentences of whatsoever importance in whole book.

 

I have not read what Rajiv has said, and probably will not, but going on discussion on indology list and Rajiv's www replies it appears that charges levelled against him are too trivial.

 

I am not claiming that  he is a great master or scholar. but it is our duty to support someone who is fighting for our cause.

 

 

it is important to protect the freedom of speech at all levels so

prof aklujkar noted "This must be the first time in human history that one or two missed quotation marks [actually seven italics mine] led to a petition for not publishing an author’s books"

I request all our members to support it by going to link below.

 

I hope you enjoy it. expect a full artcle by me on this subject.

[Ajit Gargeshwari]

I signed the petition.I request all our members to support the petition  I hope to see Prof. Panduragi's article soon.

Regards
Ajit Gargeshwari
न जायते म्रियते वा कदाचिन्नायं भूत्वा भविता वा न भूयः।
अजो नित्यः शाश्वतोऽयं पुराणो न हन्यते हन्यमाने शरीरे।।2.20।।

[Sati Shankar]

I have signed the Petition.

Regards

Sati Shankar

[Phani Kumar]

I have signed the petition.

कालोह्ययं निरवधिः विपुला च पृथ्वी ।

[Venkat S]

I have signed the petition and have sent it to my friends to sign the same.

[Jayaraman]

Namaste

I signed the petition.
The site says 9713 have signed the petition and it needs another 287 to make it 10,000.
 
Jayaraman

[sunil bhattacharjya]

Namaste,

I just signed the paper in support of Shri Rajivji's good work.

Regards,
Sunil KB

--

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

I have also signed it before posting about it

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

dear sir namase

it seems petitin has got rquired number and no more needs our supprt. there is no way in webpage that we can sign

--

Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
Director of Academics
Dean, Faculty of Vedantas

Karnakata Samskrita University, 

Pampa Mahakavi Road,
Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.

अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि। ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः। निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)

http://www.ksu.ac.in

http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/
https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat

[Krishnan S]

I signed
Krishnan

[Uttara Nerurkar]

I had already done so.

Regards,

Uttara Nerurkar.

[Usha Sanka]

Namaste

There is a discussion group of his- where he invites people to join and participate- in all his speeches. If anyone wants to share their ideas with Shri Rajiv ji, please use this group. That is real support he asks for. 

RajivMalhot...@yahoogroups.com

(Please ignore if already aware.)

dhanyAsmi.

इत्थं विनीता

उषा

On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 8:45 AM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veer...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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"-यद्गत्वा न निवर्तन्ते तद्धाम परमं मम"

[Nityanand Misra]

On Tuesday, July 21, 2015 at 11:35:23 AM UTC+5:30, Veeranarayana Pandurangi wrote:

I have also signed it before posting about it

On Jul 21, 2015 11:12 AM, "sunil bhattacharjya" <skbhatt...@gmail.com> wrote:

Namaste,

I just signed the paper in support of Shri Rajivji's good work.

Regards,
Sunil KB

I signed, not because I agree or disagree with Sh. Malhotra, but because he is being unfairly targeted by what seems to be an organized smear campaign. To see another example, here is Professor Robert Goldman, a respected scholar who has also been awarded President's Certificate of Honour, speaking on plagiarism: 

... it is illuminating as David and Nancy have done, to look beyond the wretched and ignorant writings of Mr. Malhotra to examples of work in wide circulation in which the author’s unethical reliance on earlier scholarship has not been widely noticed.

‘Wretched and ignorant?’ If you do not agree with somebody, you call their works ‘wretched.’ And if Hindus find the writings of psychoanalysts ‘wretched,’ then they are intolerant? I seriously did not expect Prof. Goldman to use these words. I have no problem with people like Prof. Goldman taking a side on a debate, but if they use this kind of ad hominem language to smear Sh. Malhotra, then it is likely that their reasoning is being overpowered by their emotions.

I believe the missing citations to be unintentional (copy-editing slips - we are all error-prone) and I give the benefit of doubt to Sh. Malhotra as he has cited the sources elsewhere. In a normal situation, the usual scenario would be for a reader to point out that an uncited statement seems to be from/is from a specific source, and the author acknowledging, saying that a citation was missed while copy-editing and future editions would be corrected for the same. But the situation is far from normal - when we have people on Indology list calling Sh. Malhotra names, calling for the publisher to take back his books, a response is definitely needed. And what a response has it been: 9,864 supporters of the petition supporting Malhotra versus 223 supporters of the original petition against Malhotra. The ratio is around 45:1, I do not even need to bother about t-stats and p-values - never mind the ‘humanities experts’ have zero training in statistics and may not be able to even comprehend what t-stats and p-values are! I hope the numbers give an idea to the ‘armchair experts’ and ‘critics’ of Hinduism of their grossly incorrect assessment of the minds of current-day Hindus (even though not all those who signed petition in support of Sh. Malhotra are Hindus). If they cannot read minds of Hindus (and people) in their own times, can we trust them to accurately read the minds of Valmiki, Vyasa, Panini, and Kalidasa who lived hundreds of years ago?

[Jsr Prasad]

Thanks for bringing this to our notice. What is more startling is a reply to his post that says - Hari Prasad Shastri's English translation of Ramayana would have largely influenced by the French translation of a western scholar, than original Sanskrit Ramayana.

[Veeranarayana Pandurangi]

Jai ho

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

मंगलवार, 21 जुलाई 2015 को 10:42:27 पूर्व UTC-7 को, Nityanand Misra ने लिखा:

 

To see another example, here is Professor Robert Goldman, a respected scholar who has also been awarded President's Certificate of Honour, speaking on plagiarism: 

... it is illuminating as David and Nancy have done, to look beyond the wretched and ignorant writings of Mr. Malhotra to examples of work in wide circulation in which the author’s unethical reliance on earlier scholarship has not been widely noticed.

‘Wretched and ignorant?’ If you do not agree with somebody, you call their works ‘wretched.’ And if Hindus find the writings of psychoanalysts ‘wretched,’ then they are intolerant? I seriously did not expect Prof. Goldman to use these words. I have no problem with people like Prof. Goldman taking a side on a debate, but if they use this kind of ad hominem language to smear Sh. Malhotra, then it is likely that their reasoning is being overpowered by their emotions.

We should be cautious about respecting and honoring scholars such as Robert Goldman.

While I was making a list of academics inimical to Hindus (interested people may contact me offline), I was pointed to this earlier list from the days of 2005 textbook battle of CA -https://manasataramgini.wordpress.com/.../the-mlechcha.../ , where among the things that most surprised me was this: "Robert Goldman: The perverted man who compared the expansion of Hanuman to the erection of a flaccid phallus. Wants to down-size the Ramayana to put the uppity Hindus in place." Indeed, it seems to check out: http://i.imgur.com/CeJ9kcK.png 

[Bijoy Misra]

Has anyone checked how much overlap there is between the Hari Prasad Shastri's translation

and the French version as alleged?  It appears to me that Gita Press's Ramayana translation

is also not original.  These give openings for attacks.  But to use choice adjectives by a scholar

looks like a local insecurity.  As Maricha asks Ravana "what did Rama do?"

PS.  I am in Maricha episode now.  I love it.  Nobody would get a clue unless he/she grew

up in India.

--

[Nityanand Misra]

I think we should be equally, if not more, cautious about trusting sources like such blogs. Is the identity of the author of manasataramgini blog known? In my view it is better to read the original source, have the context, and then make one's own conclusions than agree with somebody else's. 

Here is the source: https://books.google.co.in/books?id=sFmsrEszbxgC&pg=PA52

The book is annotated by both Robert Goldman and Sally Sutherland Goldman. I am not sure if footnote number 176 was authored by both of them or by Robert Goldman alone, but that is irrelevant here. The psychoanalysis presented in footnote 176 is surely a stretch of mind. But are the Goldmans saying in this footnote what the blog author alleges they say? I am not sure about this part. 

1) The context from the previous para is that of a pure mind

2) The exact words used are "inner phallic power." What do the Goldmans mean by "inner phallic power?" I am not sure. Do they mean "inner potency," something abstract like brahmacarya, or do they actually refer to the physical male organ? 

I am neither justifying the Goldmans nor agreeing with them. I am only questioning the blog author's conclusion. If the conclusion is based on this footnote, it appears to be a grey area and not black or white. If the conclusion is based on something else, that something else needs to be brought to our notice. 

[Nagaraj Paturi]

I am sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. 

Please look at the highlighted portions. 

The intention of the Goldman's in the main body of the text itself is to do the usual sex-centred psychoanalysis only. 

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Nagaraj Paturi]

highlighting was missing in the previously shared image.

This time, sharing with highlighting. 

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Nityanand Misra]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 2:09:32 PM UTC+5:30, nagarajpaturi wrote:

highlighting was missing in the previously shared image.

This time, sharing with highlighting. 

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 1:46 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am sharing a snapshot of the relevant page. 

Please look at the highlighted portions. 

The intention of the Goldman's in the main body of the text itself is to do the usual sex-centred psychoanalysis only. 

Dear Prof. Paturi Ji,

I agree that there is psychoanalysis being applied (the authors themselves admit it in footnote 177), and some of the comparisons amount to stretching it too much. The choice of words could have certainly been better, as one of the words used repeatedly carries coital connotations (although the non-coital meaning is also common). But do the authors say here what the blogger suggests they say? I am not sure as I do not understand what they mean by the phrase "inner phallic power." The adjective inner and the noun power suggest it is something abstract. Are they referring to an abstract psychoanalytic concept, or to the physical organ? That is the question to which I do not know the answer. Maybe we can ask them. 

 

[Nityanand Misra]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 3:17:30 PM UTC+5:30, Nityanand Misra wrote:

I agree that there is psychoanalysis being applied (the authors themselves admit it in footnote 177),

that should be footnote 176

[Nagaraj Paturi]

In psychoanalysis, no one ever talks of an actual physical organ and its changes being expressed in another behavioural action of the person. It is always the inner psychological entities such as drives, fears, guilt etc. that are analysed as expressed through other acts or behaviour.

 

I think the blogger is aware of this and was only trying to avoid the technical expressions and was putting it in a popular language.

 

Please compare the expressions Goldmans use in the context of Sri Ramakrishna Paramahans in the same pages.

 

For such analysts 'Brhmacharya' is also a kind of repression and repressions are released through various other replacements for the repressed.

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Bijoy Misra]

I am told that such material was created for the future Indology students in the west.  In those days it was not

estimated that the future students could be of Indian origin.  I get mad when I see such trash directed towards
our grandchildren.  Rajiv noticed it many years ago and has been fighting.  I support his effort.  There are some

"bright" minds in India in Government or in the academics who devour this garbage.  Unfortunately we are not
creating new material in English for the evolving youth.  It is time for some serious commitment and immersion.

We have to help create good bilingual scholars.

 

 

--

[Nityanand Misra]

On Thursday, September 10, 2015 at 4:05:29 PM UTC+5:30, Bijoy wrote:

I am told that such material was created for the future Indology students in the west.  In those days it was not

estimated that the future students could be of Indian origin.  I get mad when I see such trash directed towards
our grandchildren.  Rajiv noticed it many years ago and has been fighting.  I support his effort.  There are some

"bright" minds in India in Government or in the academics who devour this garbage.  Unfortunately we are not
creating new material in English for the evolving youth.  It is time for some serious commitment and immersion.

We have to help create good bilingual scholars.

 

In the footnotes cited, the Goldmans apply psychoanalysis to an episode and arrive at a psychosexual interpretation. I don't agree at all with their approach or their interpretation. Not everything can be seen with the narrow lens of psychoanalysis, and application of a modern theory like psychoanalysis to an ancient epic from a different culture is hardly fair.

The blogger claims Robert Goldman makes an overtly sexual comparison. I don't know if he is referring to the footnotes cited or some other text. This is a problem with relying on sources like blogs–the authors do not feel the need to cite and contextualize the topic, and so their thought process is not apparent. I am reluctant to agree until I see the blogger’s thought process.

They may be related, but a psychosexual interpretation and an overtly sexual metaphor are not the same. That’s all my point is. Maybe the blogger is speaking in common language as Dr. Paturi says. But even in the case of a vehement disagreement, one owes a fair representation of the pūrvapakṣa to the opponent. In the article, the blogger seems to have gone on a tirade, calling names and trivializing his opponents. It is quite possible (s)he stretched it [too] in the case of the comments on Goldman.

I completely agree with Dr. Bijoy Mishra that we need material in English to be authored by bilingual scholars who are truer to the traditional interpretations of our texts. English translations of the Sanskrit commentaries on the VR may result in the traditional perspective get wider readability. I would very much like the next generation of Hindu and Indian students to read English translations of VR based on Indian commentaries like Bhūṣaṇa, Tilaka, and Śiromaṇi. 

PS: Philip Lutgendorf mentions in brief the view of the Goldmans as well as those of Kakar and Sattar on pages 195 and 311 in his work Hanuman's Tale: The Messages of a Divine Monkey (OUP, ISBN 9780198042204). Lutgendorf does not comment on this view, but distinguishes them as an interpretation of ‘some modern scholars’:

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=fVFC2Nx-LP8C&pg=PA195 

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=fVFC2Nx-LP8C&pg=PA311

[Bijoy Misra]

Dear Nitaynadji,

They need not be "who are truer to the traditional interpretations of our texts."

We need good Sanskrit scholars who read the text fully and interpret and who
have good command of English.  Most in the west translate words and get stuck. 
As I see in Valmiki, a sentence can be long and the Sanskrit words are used in
context.  The western "scholars" create their work before digesting the text,
hence the translation looks ugly. I am not sure if they commence their work
looking for words in sex literature.  Some appear that way.  I do not know the
history.  What baffles me is the possible goal of such effort while many other
interesting work a young person could do.  Is it funding or is it personal interest?

Who is the audience?

BM

[Jsr Prasad]

On Thu, Sep 10, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Nityanand Misra <nmi...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the footnotes cited, the Goldmans apply psychoanalysis to an episode and arrive at a psychosexual interpretation. I don't agree at all with their approach or their interpretation. Not everything can be seen with the narrow lens of psychoanalysis, and application of a modern theory like psychoanalysis to an ancient epic from a different culture is hardly fair.

The Freudian analysis that the Goldmans have applied, is viable only at sub-conscious level. But Hanuman ji was fully conscious of all of his actions (अनिर्वेदः श्रियो मूलं अनिर्वेदः परं सुखम् etc.) and there might not be any 'conscous repression' as evident from sage Valmiki's words. As Prof. Paturi said, the word in debate - 'phallic power' has occured between two examples - Padmapurana and Paramahamsa, wherein they (Goldmans) refer to physical organs. One thing for sure, either the Goldmans are sheepishly ignorant of what to cite as an example while explaining the character's valiant activities, or they deliberately do the psycho-sexual analysis using a western lens. Brahmacaya is uncompromised as per sanatana dharma. Maintaining celibacy is not like a contract marriage that happens in some foreign countries.

Let us keep aside the blogger for a moment and think whether the allegation is true or not. Based on a blogger's feeling, a scholar's scholarship can not be trivialized, so easily. Because respective writings/books or very much before us, as we do in the case of Goldmans. I think, most of the replies gave a serious thought in this direction. Nityanand ji's suggestion to make a pūrvapakṣa has to be taken in a positive note. This aspect is being repeatedly emphasized Sri Rajiv Malhotra as reiterated by Dr. Bijoy ji. I appreciate his vision and love for Ramayana.

Also, I would like to see what sort of 'psycho analysis' has been applied in context of Hanuman ji's entry into Ravana's palace where several women (including Mandodari) said to be sleeping there. It is a different thing, whether the Goldmans took a 'U' turn or 'H' turn, while interpreting all the above. Congrats to Mr. Vishwas for exploring such kind of controversial things, where some of the scholars may not be verily interested, to go in to details.

Thanks

[Bijoy Misra]

I love Valmiki's style as a poet.  He has wit, fun and rhythm.  Given that he weaves this beautiful story two

thousand years ago amazes me.  I feel humbled every time I touch the book.  How low we really are!

I don't think anybody in the west can measure Valmiki's poetic talents.  I do not have great command

through the language, but I do come from a poet's family.  I love the way Valmiki uses the words. 

India should think of Valmiki celebrations than Rama celebrations.  Rama is Valmiki's creation.

The "scholars' In the west have been unable to measure him not understanding the dramatist he is.

Assuming Rama as divine, they get confused.  For Valmiki, Rama is a character with some extra qualities.

I tried to study it to experiment the effect of "rasa", I have been overwhelmed. He is the greatest

storyteller poet who ever lived!

While I see the western translation, I don't know their training nor their context, but they don't get it!

 

--

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Please read the snapshot of the last paragraph of page 50.

Goldmans say here, " On the aesthetic level the passage serves a need for representing the srngararasa, the erotic sentiment and enables the book and the poem to satisfy some of the formal requirements for the contents of a Mahakavya laid down in the treatises on poetics"

Is VR a lakshaNa inspiring lakshya or a lakshaNa-abiding or a lakshaNa-following lakshya? 

Even according to western dates given to VR, it is book whose core was composed in 4th-5th  centuries BC, completed by 2nd century BC. 

Which treatise on poetics dated earlier to 2nd century BC laid down the formal requirements of a Mahakavya that Valmiki was trying to satisfy ? 

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Bijoy Misra]

Paturiji,
Is the full article available electronically?

BM

[Nagaraj Paturi]

Prof. Misra,

 

The book is available to read on googlebooks. Link was shared by Nityanandji in this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Nagaraj

[Nagaraj Paturi]

One more point about

 

"On the aesthetic level the passage serves a need for representing the srngararasa, the erotic sentiment and enables the book and the poem to satisfy some of the formal requirements for the contents of a Mahakavya laid down in the treatises on poetics"

 

of the Goldmans;

 

Any elementary student of Rasa knows that the Rasa results from the tAdAtmya of the sAmAjika with the nAyaka or nAyakapaksha characters. How does a poet intend to create s'ringArarasa by describing the pratinAyaka paksha characters.

 

That aesthetic ecstasy intended to be created by the poet/theatre-director/film-maker in the heart of the audience is a result of the identification of the audience with the hero/protagonist or a character on the hero/protagonist side only and not with the villain or antagonist or their side need not necessarily come from a knowledge of Rasas'Astra. Just a lay audience of a narrative literary work or a  theatrical show or a film knows these basics of aesthetics.    

--

Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044

[Bijoy Misra]

Thank you, Prof Paturi.  I saw it but it is difficult to read (I abandoned).

Apparently the process to destroy Valmiki was started earlier (I did not know).

There seems to be a club of these individuals who don't understand

poetry, have no respect to culture and see sex everywhere.

It is unfortunate.  India has indeed suffered and through that our

children might suffer.  It shows what money and power can do in the

world.  Hope India and Indian scholars would rise up!

Who in the Government thought to give an Award?  What tragedy!

[विश्वासो वासुकिजः (Vishvas Vasuki)]

2015-09-10 23:15 GMT-07:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagara...@gmail.com>:

How does a poet intend to create s'ringArarasa by describing the pratinAyaka paksha characters.

​शृङ्गार अस्त्येवेति मन्ये, मान्य। कामुकाभिर् वराङ्गनाभिस् सहात्र सहृदयस्य तादात्म्यं स्यान् न चेद् रावणेन साकम्।​

--

--
Vishvas /विश्वासः

[Bijoy Misra]

One of the papers of mine at Bangkok had to do with the association of rasa with brain.

Some western scholars did see me after the talk and told me their strange ideas about

rasa.  Hopefully I helped them. Now I know what they have been reading.  Some "bright"
minds knowing a few words in Sanskrit are out to interpret the Sanskrit literature for the
world!  A Dutch man in another session was trying to map Mahabharata as a "tragedy"
through his own interpretation.  It was clear that he did not read the original text.

What appeared to me there is no Sanskrit research peer group.  There are individual

teachers, but the larger dissemination gets political, either religious conservatism

or arbitrariness in the cover of "free speech."

[Nagaraj Paturi]

s'ringArarasa is not possible for the following reasons:

 

1. If rAvaNa and kAmukavArAnganAs are in a mutual rati relationship, identifying with the female partner and not identifying with the male partner can not lead to rasa.

 

2. sahridaya is expected to be dhArmika and that is the reason he/she identifies only with the dhArmika characters. He/she identifying with a vArAnganA happens in exceptional cases when in exceptional plays vArAnganA herself is nAyikA (e.g. in mricchakatikanATaka or when she is on the nAyaka-side (sAmAnyanAyikA which is an arvAchIna concept)

 

3. Goldmans themselves are agreeing that vAlmIki is showing the scene through the eyes of hanumAn, a sahridaya who watches the scene through the eyes of hanumAn can not identify with kAmuka vArAnganAs.

 

4. nAyakapaksha character in the scene is hanumAn. A sahridaya identifying simultaneously with hanumAn and rAvaNa's vArAnganas is not possible.  

--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Prof.Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad-500044