A story about Gayatri Chandas in the Vedas

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Vidvans,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7yCxP1JPic

In the above video from 17 to 23 minutes you find a slightly different story of the competition between Kadru and Suvarni (Vinata in puranas) where Kadru wins and Suvarni becomes her slave.

As the price for redemption from slavery, Kadru demands the Soma lata(amrita in puranas) from the 3rd loka. Suvarni's children the chandas' Jagati and Tristhtup first try and drop 2 aksharas each from their original count and return unsuccessful.

Gayatri (originally with only 4 letters)(Garuda in the Puranas) returns victorious with not just the Soma lata but also the 2 aksharas each per pada dropped by Jagati and Trishtup.

Hence Gayatri now has 8 aksharas per pada.

Can some one give a fuller version of this story, its reference and esoteric context?

Thanks,

Venkat

  

[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. On < Hence Gayatri now has 8 aksharas per pada.>  :  Are you drawing a logical conclusion and QED on what should be Gaayatri ??

 

Why is there a mix up  of the models of  classical Chandas definition ( Pingala or Kedara bhatta) - a human composition guidance for 'maatraa- kaala- pramana  of varna-akshara flow '  for  yaajnika vinyoga/ practice of veda mantra with Vak-Yoga model guidance  with 'Vedic -Darshana'- an outcome of  Yoga-anushthana-janya darshana -shruti  as  'Gayatri-darshana' ?

 

Did Rushi Vishwamtira say Gayatri is only six aksharas ? The mantra gives only the name of the Chandas. What then is Chandas ? Is it ' akshara- maatra -pramaana'  Or  ' Chadi -  aacchdane / aahlaadane: What wraps and yields ultimate protection and Aananda ? 

 

Are we teaching 'Chandas' -Rushi-Devataa' significance to any of the Vedic research scholars , even though tradition shouts at the top of its voice : avidita -aarsheya chando daivatam mantram.......'.... yajati  ... yaajayati vaa.... sa - paapeeyaan bhavati ' - ?? .  

 

    The same issue applies to the debate of  three -paadas / fourth paada /  veda association with each paada of gayatri mantra / Gayatri open initiation for all (?- Asamksrutha Veda mantra ?? - mantro heenah, svarato varanto vaa, mithyaa prayukto na tamartham aaha ).  The upanayana samskaara is also called ' Saavitrii - vrata/ saavitri upadesha where 'Gayatri mantra' is   initiated by guru to shishya  for ' anushthaana'- purascharana' - sadhanaa.  It is not for tarka- jijnyaaaa.

 

     Everyone has their 'datta -swaatantrya /  freedom of academics' to work with Veda, quoting the statement ' jaata-maatrasya -gaayatri'  in an  out of context scenario.  When ever these positional statements of tradition are said, they are constructed differently, as it hurts the  pride of secular Vedantin's  and Hindus. My humble request and  recommendation: safely relegate discussion on Vedas out of academics. 'Vedas are NOT script /Scriptures equivalent of Religions'. Gita, Ramayana, Mahabharata serve this purpose better.

 

     Hindusim can stay with all its pride and heritage values  anchored to Ramayana, Gita and Mahabharata as history/ mystic / scripture , as explained in 'World Religion studies'.

      The moment 'Ramayana, Gita and Mahabharata' are linked to Vedic Continuum and purpose of Moksha, Lo!  loads of bricks will come down  on speakers head.  

 

2. The esoteric part  understanding of the narrative is meant for graded upaasanaa; not for public entertainment discourse. The statement < Jagati and Tristhtup first try and drop 2 aksharas each from their original count and return unsuccessful. >   means the right and wrong ways of  experimental  upaasanaa  with Gayatri for a particular goal. Wrong usage yields wrong results. The Code does run, but returns an error output.

 

    The directive   in Shaastra-sampradaaya ( right from earlier times )  is  ' Itihaasa- Purnaabhyaam, Vedaartham samupabrumhayet'.  Coherent amplification is not dissecting for postmortem.

 

    The analysis of ' Purana / even vedic upaakhyaana' narrative as a bed time story  is  not the recommended line for 'Swa-Adhyaaya': Self constructed models of Studying and interpreting  the Vedas.

 

3. Shubha Deepavali for all.

 

Regards

BVK Sastry

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Sastry garu

You have gone on a parallel journey missing my original question by a mile.

This is probably because you may not understand Tamil in the video. Kindly correct me if I am wrong.

Shubh narakachaturdashi and deepavali

Kind Regards

Venkat 

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[shankara]

Namaste,

As per the Purana Subject Index compiled by Vipin Kumar, et al., the story of Kadru and Suparni occurs in Satapatha Brahmana and Taittiriya Samhita. For details, please read the note on Kadru at the link given below.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Okg9L2g3Hjb0mYXPRwbVx8cbpA-KeOIxaGUhZs42HhY

regards
shankara

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Thanks Shri Shankara ji,

Shubh Narakachaturdashi and Deepavali to you and yours!

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Sastry Garu,

Let me make the original question in my post plain. I think there is some confusion that I have inadvertently transmitted.

There is a Tamil video by a Ghanapaati who tells a story. Since many of the BVP Vidvans are not Tamils, I did a transcribe of the story (not word for word) so that people can get a sense of the portion of the video in question.

The rest would have been obvious to the Vidvans since they were Samskrta.

I sincerely assure you I do not come here for bed time stories (although the original post was made last night) or entertainment.

Now, what I was asking for was source of the story told and bhashyas if any from the major commentators.

I hope this clarifies the scope of the question.

Thanks,

Venkat

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[K S Kannan]

The capacity is given to but a few to get confused/create confusion about almost anything. Some people entertain well - I mean entertain doubts well.  Not all can bring clarity to confusion - reduce clarity to confusion, to wit. None can miss however the good intentions of Prof BVK.

So apt that you clarify:

<<<<I sincerely assure you I do not come here for bed time stories (although the original post was made last night) or entertainment.>>>

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Dr. K.S.Kannan  D.Litt.

​Sant Rajinder Singh Ji Maharaj Chair Professor, IIT-Madras.

Senior Fellow, ICSSR, New Delhi.

Academic Director, Swadeshi Indology.

Nominated Member, IIAS, Shimla.

Former Professor, CAHC, Jain University, Bangalore.

Former Director, Karnataka Samskrit University, Bangalore.

Former Head, Dept. of Sanskrit, The National Colleges, Bangalore.

[K S Kannan]

Any help here?

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.57635

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Sir German is not my strong suite but there seem to be references etc there and shlokas,,:)

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[K S Kannan]

Or here? :

Ananthacharya E 1962

Suparna (290 pp )

Pub: Vijayawada: Bharadwaja Ashram

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Ah yes sir Thanks!!!

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[Dr BVK Sastry]

Namaste

 

1. I do understand to a decent extant the  tamil discourse; the one in the referred you tube by Veda brahma shri  Rajagopala Ghanpatigal.

   Ghanpathigal and myself were closely associated on some projects and worked together.

2. Your <Hence> and  original question is a mix up of Veda and Purana frame works : < Gayatri (originally with only 4 letters)(Garuda in the Puranas) returns victorious with not just the Soma lata but also the 2 aksharas each per pada dropped by Jagati and Trishtup.  Hence Gayatri now has 8 aksharas per pada. Can someone give a fuller version of this story, its reference and esoteric context?  >

3. My response was to address this  mix up in your question, starting with   < Hence ... >  in relation to subject line : <A story about Gayatri Chandas in the Vedas>.

 

     The answer to all your questions are provided with pointers  in the same pravachan,  in the explanation of how gayatri as a chandas, gayatri as a mantra (vishwamitra gayatri)

      and a specific devataa gayatri differ.  

 

3.  The power of  different Vedic chandas in relation to each mantra-sukta  is a practical meditation issue, explained in detail in the vedic full passage.  

      What should be the norm to chant / do japa /  for a 'mantra called Gayatri'? for a mantra which carries the tag of 'gayatri chandas' ?  should it be same or different ?

     Should the upaasanaa be from a Chandas 'shaastra perspective by akshara-maatra or  devataa perspective? Answers will be found is anukramanis as guidance for viniyoga.

     According to Mantranukramani's , when Devataa part of the Gayatri is used for upasanaa, the phala is different. The ground level practice in paurohitya  and aagma temple worship of today is at variance in many ways.

 

 

4.  When Chandas part of mantra is used for gayatri upaasanaa ( a Vak-yoga  tradition, from Shaunaka - Rushi devataa -chandas anukramani's )  the significance of 'atma-roopayoh (16.50 of video) ' will become meaningful. The esoteric context of  kadru story, drawn from 'Veda mantra', has  this technical word ' Atma-Roopayoh aspardheta '.     This points answers to your seeking. 

 

    The Purana context of kadru  story is different from Kadru- vinuta  narrative in the veda mantra.  When one starts reading the 'veda mantra' with the 'equivalence model of vocabulary from Purana', the exit from the traditional norm is clear. The 'sampuabrumhana of vedaartha from 'itihasa -puranaabhyaam'  means take the guidance of symbolism ( prateeka / Pratimaa / Upamaa ) in itihaasa and Purana  to seek the purpose of Veda and modalities of Practice.

 

    If one really goes by this stand of tradition, Mahabharata and its characters , incidents are Yoga-Shaastra; Ramayana is esoteric Kundalini yoga. If this line is given up, Veda- Ramayana- itihaasa are time distanced , context character separated  historic narrative. When the character ' Kadru' of Purana is taken as equivalent of ' Vedic concept: kadru -vinata', the error is obvious in the outcome.   

 

5.    When swadhyaayi's  make creative constructions and equivalence of Vedic term-context mapping it to the narrative in Purana ( by giving up the Shadanga Vedanga / Nirukta sampradaya / Sayana Bhaahsya ) the outcome is the kind of question you have posted. This is the  kind of root error that was done on a greater scale  by vedic researchers of west, using the 'word -similarity' across different languages, texts and contexts to  explain history of Bharath and practices of (Hindoo ) Brahmin's ! and peacefully, passively tolerated for three centuries by the 'guardians of vedas' .  Sorry if this statement hurts the pride and disturbs the peace of some others.

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[Anand Viswanathan]

This story is found in

1)  तैत्तिरीयसंहिता [6.1.6]

2)  शतपथब्राह्मणम् [3.6.2]

References/allusions to this story are found in other vedic texts as well. Eg,

 ऋग्वेदः               1.80.2  सोमः॑ श्ये॒नाभृ॑तः सु॒तः । 

                          4.26.7 आ॒दाय॑ श्ये॒नो अ॑भर॒त्सोमं॑ 

 मैत्रायणीयसंहिता  1.3.3  श्येनाय त्वा सोमभृते 

[venkat veeraraghavan]

Dear Shri Sastry Garu,

Thanks for the clarification.

As I said, I was merely transcribing (not word for word) and adding my version of the Pauranic parallel.

Interestingly in most other sources the name of the other sister is Suparni and not Suvarni as given in the video. 

It is traditionally believed that Garuda represents the Veda. I was merely making a connection there. I have no illwill towards the tradition as you well know. Unless one asks one cannot get answers. 

Maybe my question was not well phrased given that it was composed late night.

Kind Regards,

Venkat

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[venkat veeraraghavan]

Thank you Shri Anand ji!!!

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[K S Kannan]

vedAtmA vihages'varaH

is a famous statement.

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[Venkatakrishna Sastry]

Namaste Prof. KSK

Thanks for going through my response post to venkat veeraghavan; and taking note of the  'good intentions' in the response, although it  might seem   confusing and a strain to figure out what s being said.  Unfortunately, there are no simple ways to answer a complexly noodled  question, when it comes on a Scholarly forum and respond  simple story model narration.  Surely schoalrs like you will ask  for reference, authority. 

 Some times it needs hard head and strong heart to stand by tradition without compromise and call a spade a spade; and get a stick from a friend..

The QED part in Venkat Veeraraghavan  post read < < Hence Gayatri now has 8 aksharas per pada.> . If one contemplates why this is a point of confusion , the backdrop emerges as below. If the reasoned response  is not relevant for the vidwans of the forum, please drop it out. If the pointed fact is more than good intention , then please take for what it is worth.

Facts of the case  stand as below:  Gayatri is also name of a family of metres. The number of syllables can vary from 26 to 19. The Gayatri metre has as many as 10 variants.. The Nichruth Gayatri is one such variant. Apart from differences in the number of syllables, more variants occur due to the padas. Some variants of Gayatri have 5 padas.  Some of them have formations such as : 5|5|5|5|6, 5|5|5|4|6, 6|7|11, 7|7|7|, 7|6|6 etc and all of them belong to the Gayatri family of metre. The Gayatri mantra that appears in RV 3.62.10 is having 23 syllables. Even in the classical reference, Katyayana's Anukramanika, Katyayana calls the 23-syllabled metre by the name Gayatri only. (Source:  https://hinduism.stackexchange.com/questions/17783/metrical-restoration-of-gayatri-mantra)   . More esoteric details can be seen at   https://sreenivasaraos.com/tag/gayatri-savitri/ .

Text about  Gayatri in connection with Shyena and other (birds ?) like suparna comes in   Krishna Yajurveda - Third Kanda  - second prapahtaka - onwards in connection with Pavamana Soma -Third to ninth suktas). The technicality of yajna -dhyana- viniyoga here helps one to understand the purana story of Kadru where the term ' atmaroopayoh'- comes in.  ( https://www.shastras.com/vedas/krishna-yajur-veda/ - page 176 of text) .

The story of Kadru and Vinata as an ithasa legend coming  in  Mahabharata - Adi parva \ Astika Parva \ section XVI -to-XX. ( https://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/m01/m01021.htm).  Link given by shankara.  The Mahabharata  story gets transposed to purana versions with a different flavor and symbolism. And ends up  with the construct of classical rivalry  between 'Garuda and Serpents' to become a popular story. This is how original 'Vision' of Veda, locked in symbolism of Itihasa- Purana  transposes to popular faith endorsement of  rivalry  between Garuda birds and serpent reptiles.

 Each text-section of tradition  has a specific purpose and context. When this gets mixed up in the question itself, with ' words transposed out of context',  the clarification to explain the source of confusion and resolution of the same. becomes complex. 

That was my ' good  intention'  and 'contention' on why-how such questions need to be seen in the frame of 'tradition'.  The essence of post was not to confuse the 'Veda-artha' with ' purana-pravachana-artha' and draw QED statements.

Regards

BVK Sastry

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Regards

 

Dr. B V Venkatakrishna Sastry
(G-Mail)

 

 

[विश्वासो वासुकेयः]

On Saturday, October 26, 2019 at 6:06:29 PM UTC+5:30, venkat veeraraghavan wrote:

Thank you Shri Anand ji!!!

On Sat, Oct 26, 2019 at 5:46 PM Anand Viswanathan <v21....@gmail.com> wrote:

This story is found in

1)  तैत्तिरीयसंहिता [6.1.6]

अद्भुतकथा! https://vvasuki.github.io/saMskAra/kalpa/brAhmaNa/taittirIya/tattva/Chando-vaishiShTyam/ इत्यत्र स्वावगत्यै सङ्गृहीतः पाठष् टिप्पण्यादिसंवलनेन विकृतः।  आख्ययिकानाम् साध्व् अवगतिः कथं स्यादिति श्रुतिः स्वयं दर्शयति!

 

2)  शतपथब्राह्मणम् [3.6.2]

References/allusions to this story are found in other vedic texts as well. Eg,

 ऋग्वेदः               1.80.2  सोमः॑ श्ये॒नाभृ॑तः सु॒तः । 

                          4.26.7 आ॒दाय॑ श्ये॒नो अ॑भर॒त्सोमं॑ 

 मैत्रायणीयसंहिता  1.3.3  श्येनाय त्वा सोमभृते 

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