Prasara Bharati-Pronunciation of sanskrit sabdas in Sanskrit News
Phaniapard
Nityanand Misra
On Thursday, November 14, 2013 8:08:47 PM UTC+8, Phaniapard wrote:
Namaste. I do not know whether it is kosher to raise this issue in this forum. Having failed to interest the Ministry of I&B in remedying the perennially persistent defect, I am turning to BVP. This relates to reading of news in sanskrit over All India Radio.All readers of sanskrit news save Mr.Baladevananda Sagar pronounce all ajanta sabdas as though they were halantas.
If it was not for the sentence construction, one could easily mistake the sanskrit news for hindi news, if one heard it from a distance.
Youngsters listening to the pronunciation of these readers could easily take it to be the correct way. Is there a way one could impress upon the authorities that be that correct pronunciation is such an integral part of sanskrit language that vedangas were devoted to this subject. Thank you.
Usha Sanka
Namaste. I do not know whether it is kosher to raise this issue in this forum. Having failed to interest the Ministry of I&B in remedying the perennially persistent defect, I am turning to BVP. This relates to reading of news in sanskrit over All India Radio.All readers of sanskrit news save Mr.Baladevananda Sagar pronounce all ajanta sabdas as though they were halantas. If it was not for the sentence construction, one could easily mistake the sanskrit news for hindi news, if one heard it from a distance. Youngsters listening to the pronunciation of these readers could easily take it to be the correct way. Is there a way one could impress upon the authorities that be that correct pronunciation is such an integral part of sanskrit language that vedangas were devoted to this subject. Thank you.
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Hnbhat B.R.
Scholars considered as good, do not take into consideration.
विवृतमूष्मणां स्वराणां च। ह्रस्वस्याऽवर्णस्य प्रयोगे संवृतम्।
प्रक्रियादशायां तु विवृतमेव। एतच्च सूत्रकारेण ज्ञापितम्। तथाहि।।
(11)अ अ । 8-4-68
इति विवृतमनूद्य संवृतोऽनेन विधीयते। अस्य चाष्टाध्यायीं सम्पूर्णां
प्रत्यसिद्धत्वाच्छास्त्रदृष्ट्या विवृतत्वमस्त्येव। तथा च सूत्रम्।।
(12)पूर्वत्रासिद्धम्। 8-2-1
अधिकारोऽयम्। तेन सपादसप्ताध्यायीं प्रति त्रिपाद्यसिद्धा त्रिपाद्यमपि
पूर्वं प्रति परं शास्त्रमसिद्धं स्यात्।
If the प्रयोग of ह्रस्व अकार as संवृत is heard by those who use it in
प्रयोग as विवृत like other vowels, as consonant ending words
preceding the ह्रस्व अकार, it is not the fault of those who pronounce
it as संवृत, but it is the fault of those who do not hear it clearly
to distinguish from consonant Ending words which are not usually used
in Hindi. But only संवृत अकार, which grammatically correct and it is
the fault of those who misspell it like other vowels and could not
distinguish it from consonant ending words if any used during the news
reading.
This is the opinion of my Grammar Teacher, who used to say this very
frequently, north Indian pronounciation is correct grammatically and
विवृत अ used by South Indians, in their languages is grammatically
wrong.
I think this kind of finding fault with others' pronounciation should
be carefully posed, as none of us have ever heard how Panini or
Bhattoji pronounced the vowels, but only we ourselves deem our
pronunciation correct what we have heard from other people in our
region and speaking regional language and try to correct others'
pronunciation.
In fact, Hindi speaking people would never confuse between the
pronounciations of cononants and संवृत अकार which is natural to Hindi
language. Only others mishear it and confuse it with consonants
preceding it.
Dr.Raghavendra.Bhat
नमामि !
(Only one way - get good Samskrita scholars (and only on merit please, no reservation for any caste) to read the news. Scholars whose pronunciation of akaaraanta words in Samskrita is not influenced by their mother tongue. Now the community of good Samskrita scholars is so small (an endangered species) that if Prasar Bharati becomes selective, they may have to shut down the news altogether. )
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Nityanand Misra
On Friday, November 15, 2013 3:41:12 AM UTC+8, Usha Sanka wrote:
NamasteIt is not just Mr. Baladevananda Sagar issue (do not be so specific about names please), or just news in Sanskrit over All India Radio. It is everywhere. North Indians or precisely those with anajanta-ending words in their bhAShAs, spell Sanskrit words the same way as they are spelt in their native languages..! You specify it to News; it is not fair, though matters a lot.
I came across many instances of such wrong pronunciations myself, and unable to tolerate the distorting of devabhAShA, , when I tried to point out the right way, "pronouncers(?)" laughed at my own ajanta-pada-uccAraNam (Telugu native) and wanted me to realize I was wrong.., not they!!
Phani Kumar
Namaste. Before the matter raises more heat and dust, I must hasten to clarify the purpose of raising this issue in the first place. It is not to say how people of certain regions pronounce sanskrit. It is to say how the current crop of news readers are reading the news. I am not overly worried that some people say अर्जुन and others say अर्जुन् at all. But if the script says अर्जुन, can the reader of the very same script pronounce it as अर्जुन् ? Current news and archived news are available on the website “Newsonair.com”. Quite often scripts of news are also published on this site. When you compare what is written on the script with how it is pronounced, there is often a variance of the type mentioned.
If all of us or most us feel that such things do not matter, no remedy is required and business as usual must be continued, so be it.
On the other hand, all of us or most of us feel it must not be so, let us do something about it.
A straightforward issue like this must be amenable to solution through civil discussion.
Thank you.
--
Nityanand Misra
On Friday, November 15, 2013 1:34:33 PM UTC+8, Phaniapard wrote:
Namaste. Before the matter raises more heat and dust, I must hasten to clarify the purpose of raising this issue in the first place. It is not to say how people of certain regions pronounce sanskrit. It is to say how the current crop of news readers are reading the news. I am not overly worried that some people say अर्जुन and others say अर्जुन् at all. But if the script says अर्जुन, can the reader of the very same script pronounce it as अर्जुन् ? Current news and archived news are available on the website “Newsonair.com”. Quite often scripts of news are also published on this site. When you compare what is written on the script with how it is pronounced, there is often a variance of the type mentioned.
If all of us or most us feel that such things do not matter, no remedy is required and business as usual must be continued, so be it.
On the other hand, all of us or most of us feel it must not be so, let us do something about it.
A straightforward issue like this must be amenable to solution through civil discussion.
Thank you.
Sivasenani Nori
Really? Let's see how some Samskrita names are written and pronounced in your own language -"అల్లు అర్జున్" - 218,000 results in Google Search for the Halanta spelling"అల్లు అర్జున" - 11,300 results in Google Search for the Akaaraanta spellingMore than 90% of Google hits have the "wrong" (from Samskrita point of view) spelling అర్జున్ and less than 10% have the "right" spelling అర్జున.
Shrivathsa B
The tendency of a few southern Indians (those like film actors, politicians etc. not a majority, but a few of them, those who want to align with the "mainstream" bollywood names) pronouncing their names with halanta allu arjun (as the example was given) is:
1. a colonial hang over still being perpetuated by pop-culture and bollywood. the colonials favoured the northern Indian pronunciations more than the southern ones (wherever they went in southern India they kept changing names, but not everywhere in the north). the britishers favoured the samskR^itam pronunciations of bengalis / hindis. About the pronunciation of bengalis, the lesser said the better.
The pronunciation of samskR^itam by those who have learnt samskR^itam in the south is closer to shikShA than the northerners. One wonders where the tradition of truncation of the last "a" svara started from. they don't truncate any other svara as far as i know. हिन्दी is हिन्दी both in spoken and written word whereas the northerners (even very very knowledgeable ones) will say मुण्ड् कोप् निशत् one wonders why not म्ण्ड्क्प्न्श्त् (usage of श् here is intentional). I request those with a knowledge of the history of the pronunciation of hindi / prAkR^ita to kindly respond.
Reeta Bhattacharya
Phani Kumar <phani...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Namaste. Before the matter raises more heat and dust, I must hasten to
>clarify the purpose of raising this issue in the first place. It is not to
>say how people of certain regions pronounce sanskrit. It is to say how the
>current crop of news readers are reading the news. I am not overly worried
>that some people say अर्जुन and others say अर्जुन् at all. But if the
>script says अर्जुन, can the reader of the very same script pronounce it as
>अर्जुन् ? Current news and archived news are available on the website
>“Newsonair.com”. Quite often scripts of news are also published on this
>site. When you compare what is written on the script with how it is
>pronounced, there is often a variance of the type mentioned.
>
>If all of us or most us feel that such things do not matter, no remedy is
>required and business as usual must be continued, so be it.
>
>On the other hand, all of us or most of us feel it must not be so, let us
>do something about it.
>
>A straightforward issue like this must be amenable to solution through
>civil discussion.
>
>Thank you.
>
>
Jsr Prasad
This is nothing to do with subject in the discussion thread. But a point raised by Dr. Nityanand ji.
Let me share a story! In my previous organization (C-DAC), one of my colleague’s name was 'Ananda'. I was intrigued for some time whether the person is 'He' or 'She.' After a long time, during a cultural event, I found the person to be 'He'. I was happy to learn about this.
Precisely cause of my confusion was - with regard to using feminine words, we Telugus don't distinguish the dIrghAnta. Eg. rama, vANi, sudha and so on. All of us know that there are tajjanya, tatsama and tadbhava words in Indian languages, which are especially influenced by Sanskrit. Usage of such words against Sanskrit grammatical rules is seemingly quite common, as each language has its own characteristics. As I observe, the Kannada native speakers (exempting the cine field, as pointed by Dr. Nityanand) pronounce such proper names as per the substantive ending like ಗಣೇಶ, ಯೋಗರಾಜ, ನಾಗ ರಾಜ and so on. If I am correct, Malayalam has similar feature with regard to sambuddhi of proper names. Other aspect of Kannada language is, it has lot of similarities with regard to finite/non finite verbal forms with Telugu.
--
निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
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Dr. Jsra Prasad,
Asst. Professor, Dept. of Sanskrit Studies
University of Hyderabad, Prof. C.R. Rao Road,
Hyderabad - 500 046 Tel: 040-2313 3803
Hnbhat B.R.
started from. they don't truncate any other svara as far as i know.
earlier reply that Bhattoji new the प्रयोग of ह्रस्व अकार and Panini
new, with the last sUtra - अ अ in the अष्टाध्यायी.
which has been interpreted by भट्टोजी and others as संऋतमनूद्य
विवृतोऽनेन विधीयते।
which Panini new two प्रयोग-s of it. We have not heard it in प्रयोग,
like other vowels, we pronounce it as विवृत vowel.
Hnbhat B.R.
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/WMKX7WMM_Ao/VqRjM9c5wnEJ
Here is the link to my message dealing with ह्रस्व अकार according to
भट्टोजी and पाणिनि -
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/bvparishat/-AyUasn3N9g/exZu7Y1kBxEJ
Here is the difference of two अ अ इति - interpreted in modern linguistics:
अ अ
We have here twice the letter A, or A - A. In modern phonetics, this
would be rendered by:
/a/ --> [ə]
The संवृत अकार superseding all the earlier instances in अष्टाध्यायी in प्रयोग.
In Malayalam we have संवृत उकार, which is not present in Kannada or
telugu, but in Tamil and Malayalam only. The above shows that what we
pronounce in Kannada, it is not the संवृत अकार, which we never use in
Kannada. and when we hear it from others we doubt its pure
pronunciation as in the Hindi language, which we are not used at all.
which has been interpreted by भट्टोजी and others as संऋतमनूद्य
विवृतोऽनेन विधीयते।
which was diretly taken from SK text. itself. Sorry for typo error.
Shrivathsa B
svasti,
Shrivathsa B
http://youtu.be/DBP45MmPIgc?t=1h45m00s
Venkatakrishna Sastry
Namaste
A, The posts below bring up specific issues :
1. what is the standard pronunciation for a word in a given language- tagged as Samskrutham ( chandas and bhashaa distinctions noted)- Prakrutham - and social language usage ?
2. Who speaks standard language? This also covers the theme of trainers- validators- appreciators of standard language, who have a sensitive esr- tongue and mind for these issues,
3. What are the scripting conventions of standard language?
B, These issues are addressed clearly in panini-patanjali tradition.
First issue is covered by the guidance 'upadeshaah shuddhah paThyante' . The voiced teaching guidance will be pure and perfect. The persons who do this upadesha are Shishta = trained in respective branches, who care to keep the language streams pure and clear. So much so, in vedic training tradition, the students of different vedas/ shaakhas were to be physicaly distanced out so that one student does not get a overlay of voice from another tradition/ another school. Even mixing of students of different vedas was avoided, with this kind of constraint, the purity of phoneme units pronunciation- cognition was guarded.
Unless the Samskrutham phonemic purity is intended to be guarded through the use of reading Sanskrit news+ there is an intention to use broadcast news as a standard reference for samskrutham studies, the debate below looses its sense.
If the purpose of Sanskrit news broadcast is to serve as a news broadcast as in any other language, then the topic of language standard does not arise. For example, there is a daily English news broadcast by several nations including UK/ BBC. Only BBC news reading serves two purposes: news communications + setting British Standard English pronunciation globally. Is such a thing happening/ expected in Sanskrit news reading? Which for all practical purposes has been heavily accented and influenced by regional language pronunciations ?
On point 2, where are the people who fit the description of Shishtas given in tradition? And coming for news reader jobs ? Adding a vibhakti-pratyaya is not enough and suffucient to call a given speech as meeting the standard of Samskrutham? The criterion of freedom from ' apa-shabda/ dushta shabda' has to be assessed.
On point 3- lot more research is needed. This is brought out in many posts below. Then, what is the trend seen ? Fitting devanagari lipi to roman alphabet characters with a diacritic marking going by international phonetic convention OR use a near- practical regional language convention. Both ways the scripting convention inaccuracies extend to phonetic dimensions in reading ; and this naturally effects the reading of a written text document.
Corrections for deviant readings of written text demand a sound knowledge of vocabulary- grammar- context and conventions. Technically called the vedanga equipment. The absence of this glaringly seen . This error is greatly embraced and adopted by many tecno-linguistic enthusiasts, desiring to fit indian languages on English phonetic outlay!?
I hope that Samskrutham enthusiasts deliberate on these points and come to an action which will be aligned to panini-patanjali traditional guidelines.
Regards
Bvk Sastry
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