Elementary Countries Quiz

[teddy109711]

So, from NAPB's request I opened a new thread for the Elementary Countries Quiz because the title of the last thread was sort of misleading.

1. So the lower case "L" looks like the upper case "I", therefore I am going to remove all of the countries using the lower case "L" (only Palau is using it anyway).  We need another country to fill its place so what suggestions do you guys have to replace it with?

2. I think the quiz is almost ready, if any of you think any minor changes (such as NOT telling them the symbol rather than giving it to them) please post them on the thread.

I think that's about it for now.

-teddy109768

[needapausebutton]

Thanks teddy109711.

I'd love for other people to review the quiz-in-progress in the BunchofCurators account to see how this one is so far, and to chime in on this thread.

I'm NOT an elements expert!

But I'd like for teddy109711 to also be given input on what you guys think about how the quiz is set up, whether it should be a minefield, and any-or-all aspects that pop into your minds while "proofing it".  Thanks.

- napb

[Geo1]

We could make Palau   Proactinium (Pa)- Lanthanum (La)- Uranium (U)

[zalkon2004]

I really like this quiz. Especially the presentation seeing the letters show up as you click the elements.

I just played through about 5 or 6 times and was wondering about a few things. Does it need to be a minefield? I'm not opposed to minefields like some are but I'm wondering if this needs to be one. I think it would work without the mines and would certainly receive less "Why is this a minefield" type complaints. If it remains a minefield maybe add a minute to take into account the player taking slightly longer thinking before risking setting off a mine.

Also a lot of the same elements get used, maybe swap out a few countries that reuse elements and/or mix in a few more countries that use previously unused elements for greater variety. Like Cuba (Cu - Copper, Ba - Barium) using two previously unused elements or Gabon (Gallium - Ga, Boron - B, Oxygen - O, Nitrogen - N which would add another Nitrogen but would also introduce three previously unused elements.

One other thing I noticed in Ukraine the Ra part is currently paired with the answer Radon which is incorrect. The answer for Ra should be Radium. (The symbol for Radon is Rn).

Except for the Radium/Radon correction these are just some thoughts I had while playing the game. Feel free to use/not use them. Like I said earlier I like the quiz and hope to see it do well upon completion!

[MovieGuru]

If we need any new countries, we can steal some off this quiz:
http://www.sporcle.com/games/WorldWhiz/countries_elements

Can someone post the quiz-test link on here?

[Daniel Hodgson]

Thanks, about the minefield problem, I don't see it working not being a minefield, if you click on one and get it wrong but it continues anyway, I just don't think it will work.

--
 
 

[needapausebutton]

I'm glad to see people helping out.

I'd like to see you all address ALL of the comments, beginning with the earliest ones left above at the start of the thread.

I'm also not sure about minefields.

I've TEMPORARILY changed the setting to 10 minutes (to allow for ample time for us to "play around with this and try things out"). The final timer setting should be determined, and set, later on.

I've also TEMPORARILY de-selected "wrong answers end quiz" in order for everyone to "see what it is like" that way, and what the effects are. (We ALREADY know what the effects are if a mine ends the quiz).

Personally, it seems that it's better without the minefield, as players STILL need to answer the remainder of each element. Why make them start over, and force them to tediously re-answer everything they've already gotten? Our goal is not to get a lot of re-plays, but to put out a quality quiz that players will ENJOY playing. That's my opinion.

I also would like to ask you all, should there be some decoys? (my initial thought is "yes"), to throw off the players who play this and can "guess" their way through it rather than allowing the "smarter" players to strut their stuff. But yeah I'm ignorant... ARE there some atomic symbols which could be used to "throw people off the scent" which could NOT simultanously be viable for that same clue OR another one?

[citkeane]

Room for another opinion? I'm sure MovieGuru only intended to be helpful by posting that published game link but I feel like that quiz could be a source of concern for us regarding the originality of this quiz in its current form. I already had a few reservation about it when I replayed it earlier today, mainly relating to the main crux of the game being matching elements to their chemical symbols. In many respects it could be said that the fact the symbols are arranged to spell out countries is superfluous and ultimately, at least in its current form, you ARE just matching symbols to elements. 

I know that it's still a work in progress and I'm sure with teddy's expertise at the helm, and the collective abilities of everyone who's posted to the thread thus far, the game can be rejiggered into something truly worthy of the bunchofcurators' seal of approval.

With regards the minefield issue, I'd have some serious reservations about releasing a minefield quiz UNLESS it was entirely necessary. As a group account or curators, sanctioned by the admin, there is already a certain undue attention that will be given to any games released by this account. If we were to minefield that subsequently garnered A LOT of plays due to the minefield element I think it could result in a nasty backlash. 

I think a little more individual and collective brainstorming is needed to get this quiz off the ground and truly differentiate it from the published classic quiz that was linked to. There's my two cents.

[Daniel Hodgson]

Hey, after the general consensus of people saying no minefield, I think I am on board with no minefield.

On Nov 18, 2012 8:31 PM, "teddy109711" <teddy...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[needapausebutton]

OK, teddy109711, that sounds good.

And, thanks for joining in, citkeane, we welcome your advice for sure.

Straighten me out if I'm missing something, but that quiz linked by MovieGuru looks to me like the "flip side" of this one (it starts with elements and you have to name the countries). This one, you start with the countries and have to name the elements (or their symbols).

So as with the case with the whole of Sporcledom, where you have "Name the country, given the capital" and "Name the capital, given the country" they really ARE different tests/quizzes.

Which leads me to again wonder about "decoys" and whether any chemistry experts can weigh on on that. If it is "too easy" given the obviousness of each letter (or 2-letter) choice available, then this quiz WOULD be, in effect "Look at these Letters, and Name the Elements as you Go Across". Which probably won't "cut" it as a quiz worthy of contributing due to its ease.

So let's all remember that ALL quizzes in this group are a GROUP effort, regardless of who thought it up, and we really need to feel a clear sense that ANY idea remains viable as it is fleshed out. 

What we are doing now is finally, and “truly” investigating this quiz’s potential. Collaboration at its best. Let’s see if we can come up with the answers.

-napb

[AdmiralMaxtreme]

I think that having "decoy" answers is a great idea, because otherwise guessing is too easy.  As for which elements to include as decoys, I don't think it really matters.  There shouldn't be any confusion as to whether "In" means "Iodine (I) and Nitrogen (N)" or "Indium (In)" because of the lowercase 'n.'  Because of that, I think we could easily put in a wide variety of decoys without compromising the accuracy of our quiz.

And as far as the similarity of the two quizzes go, I think it's okay.  As needapausebutton said, reversing a quiz idea is an accepted practice with Sporcle quizzes.

[citkeane]

I'm just going to post the game link, in case anyone wants to test the quiz and is to lazy to sign in (or sign out and then sign in): 

http://www.sporcle.com/games/test/16183b

[needapausebutton]

I'm posing this question directly to Teddy109711 (but parts of it below apply to anyone):

Do you want anybody (or perhaps certain people) to actually GO INTO the quiz and do anything with the data, such as adding decoys, or anything else?

Let us know, or if you want to designate any "specific"people to do that who you think are "on the mark"...

And, thereafter, I'd like to suggest that if you (or any of your designees) DOES do some editing, that it be "so noted" each time in a post on this thread.

If it's a simple thing, like "I fixed the spelling of ____, and changed ______ to ______" then simply STATE THAT (the changes) and we'll know (....and we WON'T have to replay the game).

But if the changes are "more complex", THAT should be so-stated and players "invited" to "replay the quiz and see how it works now"....

Make sense?

So, let us know WHO you'd like to actually physically do editing Teddy109711, and thanks.

- pause

[Daniel Hodgson]

Anyone can edit. If you are all curators you all have good judgment.  One thing I do ask is post what you change on this post.

On Nov 18, 2012 8:31 PM, "teddy109711" <teddy...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[zalkon2004]

I went and fixed the Radium/Radon issue I noted in my previous post.

[citkeane]

As for decoy elements if we're going down that road, Radon would be an obvious one (turn a minor mishap into an opportunity). Other obvious one's would be Lawrencium for the Lanthanum in Ireland and I'm sure there are many others. I'd like to second zalkon's suggestion that repeating elements in the answers be kept to a minimum, wherever possible. 

An country that could be used as a replacement for another country that uses multiple elements already used, such as Pakistan, is Monaco. 'Spelling it' Molybdenum, Nitrogen, Actinium Oxygen introduces 3 new elements with only one repeat. 

The last thing I'll bring up before signing off for the night (it's late here) is the lower case L in Palau. Is there any clever html copy-pasting (i.e. a lower case l with a curl at the bottom) that can be done to prevent the possibility of it being misread as an I. Not a major issue but if it was possible to prevent the possibility of confusion it might be worth that little extra effort.

[Daniel Hodgson]

I will say I love the decoy answer idea. And I also like keeping using elements to a minimum.  Anytime there is one that could replace another and use less, feel free to swap it in.

On Nov 18, 2012 8:31 PM, "teddy109711" <teddy...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[needapausebutton]

I put out a call for some help on that lower case "L", and will report here soon.

The alternative would be to try to find a replacement for every "I" but let's wait and see what I can come up with.

[needapausebutton]

No luck on the lower case "l" yet  (the Armenian letter "լ" drops TOO low, for example)

In spite of that, doesn't it come down to really this though?:   WILL it be a problem for players or cause complaints to leave PAlAu as it is?

• Say a player is working that clue, and they have already completed (correctly or not) the "P".....

So now they come to the letter "A" (or the letters "Al"....)

There are no elements which are just "A", so if a player picked "Argon" by mistake, they'd be wrong, and the letters "Al" are filled in automatically (They'll see "PAl _ _ on the screen now)

Since the "l" has now been entered ALREADY, there is no chance that a player could now be "stuck" thinking that they still have to "solve" the capital letter "I".

Furthermore, when the word "PAlAu" first appeared on the screen for that clue set, anybody who "reads it" as "P-A-I-A-U" should have to struggle a bit since they should "suffer" for not knowing that there is no country called "PAIAU"

Thoughts, anyone?

[AdmiralMaxtreme]

I completely agree.  When I first tested the quiz, my first thought was "Paiau?  What the heck is that?"  Then I immediately realized it had to be "Palau," and kicked myself.  I think it's totally fine to leave it the way it is.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks, A-M.

Others can still weigh in on that too... Meanwhile, two more things.

1) Wouldn't elements such as "Iridium" work as a decoy (for players "caught napping" who see "IR" for Ireland, and don't take a moment to remember that the "R" would have to be lower-case?

Are there other elements that could do the same sort of trick elsewhere as decoys? If YES, could somebody take the initiative to look into the whole DECOYS situation, and re-read the threads above, and start putting workable decoys into the quiz (and perhaps also think up others if they exist,such as Iridium)?

2) When the quiz goes live, we'll need to select (check) the option "Hide the previous/next question".  As it is now, a player can click on the "next" button, see the answer, then click "previous" and type it in.

      I just did a test, and the quiz works perfectly fine without those buttons present.

However I want to leave that option UNSELECTED, FOR NOW because as we construct the quiz and test things out, it is much easier to navigate through the quiz with those buttons available, so we can quickly skip ahead and check things.

We just have to remember to select the option "right before going live"

- pause

[needapausebutton]

Sorry for the flurry of posts, but I had a bit of time to devote to this, so I took advantage!

I'm a fan of this teddy109711 idea, so I want to help him along and see it succeed, to the best of my abilities :)

Anyways, I just got another character, and have inserted it into the word "PAɩAu"

How does it look now?

(We have MrChewypoo  to thank for finding it, by the way, and also rockgolf for having made the earlier suggestion)

[zalkon2004]

I gave the decoy issue a cursory look just now. 

One thing I thought about that might have been touched upon but I just skipped over is extraneous "used" elements meaning an extra unused Argon or some other element. How do we feel about that? I'm kind of against it if only cause it feels a little too tricky and complicated.

I like NAPB's suggestion of Iridium (Ir) as a fake out for Ireland. 

Some other thoughts could be:

 

Krypton (Kr) for the U KR aINe.

Ytterbium (Yb) as a bogus alternative to Yttrium in CYPrUS, they have the same starting letter and similar sounding names.

Maybe Roentgenium (Rg) for the "rG" in ArGeNTiNa. Paying attention to capitalization is important in this quiz and a pairing like that could trip some up.

Also thinking of Silicon (Si) as a general decoy for Sulfur. There are plenty of S's in the quiz and a random Silicon might work, at least once.

[Daniel Hodgson]

I like the idea of follow the capitals in the word. It kinda makes you think ahead rather than just picking.

On Nov 18, 2012 8:31 PM, "teddy109711" <teddy...@gmail.com> wrote:

--
 
 

[zalkon2004]

Also citkeane's suggestion to put Radon back into the quiz but this time as a decoy.

[citkeane]

I have a few more countries that also work. I'm not sure if we've agreed on a finalised list of countries. If not, these are other possibilities.

Cu Ba

Ne Th Er La N Ds

Bh U Ta N

P Al Es Ti Ne

Cuba should be a definite inclusion as it introduces two previous unused elements to the list, even though it is quite short. I think if were to have every possibility on the table it would enable us to choose the best final bunch of countries with the fewest repeating elements. Any other ones what have been overlooked?

[Daniel Hodgson]

I think it'd be fun to end on UNiTeD sTaTeS oF AmErICa.

[needapausebutton]

I realize this may "momentarily" clutter things up, but I think the only way to test citkeane's suggestions for new additions, and teddy109768's above also, is to actually put them in the quiz, along with the answers, and see how it looks/feels.

Then we can gauge which of them might be best, whether all of them, or most of them; and which perhaps to cut.

@citkeane, are you up for entering the new countries and their answers per your own and teddy's suggestions above?

@zalkon2004: You've got good attention for detail and seem to be pretty thorough in scouring earlier posts -- do you want to take care of all of the decoys for the quiz and entering them?

If either of you can't or don't want such a task, just say so, no worries :)

AFTER those two phases are completed, then I think all of us should try it out in it's "fullest" form. Then we'll be able to tell if it is too cumbersome and should be re-trimmed, and whether or not the decoys seem plausible (and if there are some for each country).

Although clearly a lot of us are chipping in and focused now, let's keep remembering that we don't want to "rush" this either; therefore I think that the above is reasonable as the next "stage" from which to approach it.

[zalkon2004]

I went in and added Iridium, Krypton, Silicon, Ytterbium, Radon, and Roentgenium as decoys. Are we going to note the presence of the decoys or leave them "hidden".

Also want to echo NAPB on the patience, the game has a few "moving parts" so we want to be accurate. 

[citkeane]

I don't think the USA would work as So isn't a chemical symbol. Unless I'm way off base. 

I'm happy to add some of the possible country I mention and any others people might have. 

[citkeane]

Never mind. I think teddy meant ..d STaTeS OF Am... So I'll add that.

[Daniel Hodgson]

Oops, that O should be capital

[citkeane]

Okay, I've added Palestine, Netherlands, Bhutan, Cuba, and USA. Also, added a Tin to the decoys seeing as there are quite a few Titaniums. We might need to consider <sub>ing the third column as the USA letters/blanks take up so much space. Not entirely necessary but a possibility.

Here's the link again: http://www.sporcle.com/games/test/16183b

[needapausebutton]

Thanks, c & z

Yes I think we should mention that there are decoys.... I think it would have an "interesting side effect" of having players (who would have automatically guessed correctly) stop and pause, and go "hmmmm there are decoys...... maybe it's not ______ as I immediately thought, maybe I should try _____ instead"

Therefore it can serve as a bit of a faux-trap for people who DO know elements fairly well.

zalk: Feel free to look at the countries that citkeane is adding, and see if you can come up with more decoys from the Table of Elements. ANY that start with a Capital letter corresponding to ANY capitalized letters in ANY of the countries are viable (and obviously, in particular, any elements which CONTAIN the next letter to the right, especially when it is a lower case, but ALSO, as you pointed out above, it could be the next Capitalized letter too! -- In other words, the more ways we can "trip up players", the better!)

[citkeane]

Just played through the game and it works quite well, even with the repeating elements. With the blanks it's like you're being asked to spell the given countries in Element-ese, the most inefficient language known to man. 

[needapausebutton]

citkeane: Can you replace (by copying the one I put in the quiz for Palau), the lower case "l" in the Palestine-related ones?

(Where they appear in the first and third columns)

Thanks

[citkeane]

Okay, I've done that.

[citkeane]

Here are a few other possible countries that were can consider if were need to swap some of the current ones out:

KIrIBaTi

MoNaCo

NePAl

NAuRu

SInGaPoRe or SiNGaPoRe

BaHRaIn

BeNiN or BeNIn

BaHAmAs

FRaNCe

[needapausebutton]

OK thanks, citkeane!

For those of you reading this thread, who are up for Multi-testing it, here are some things I'll want your thoughts on as I continue to assess the viability of the quiz, particularly its "playability" and "deceptiveness"

1) Do any countries seem "too similar" to others (whereby players would almost be thinking "didn't I already click on these elements for a country already?")

And, are any of the new options citkeane just presented much more “unique” and perhaps should replace some currently in the quiz?

2) Are any too easy (where no decoys are available, or the same decoys were already used for another one), or just plain "too easy" anyways.

3) Should we consider the idea of having some decoys be misspellings? That would easily allow us to have decoys wherever we want, particularly for those countries where decoys would "hardly fool anyone". Personally, I kind of like that idea, as it will REALLY add another element to how well players "know their stuff"... after all, we do want THIS quiz to be tougher than the first two that BofC contributed, right?

4) Overall length of the quiz? Too long, just right? It's also got to be fun for players (don't want them to get bored or tired.)

5) Related to #'s 2 and 3 above:   Is the answer-field easily scannable in spite of the quantity of choices (real & decoys) in the field?  My thought is "yes" since most "scanning" will occur by immediately glancing at "start-letters".  (In other words, this WOULD be easy to manage, unlike other large-field quizzes where a "full-field re-scanning" is almost-required for every clue, yes?)

[AdmiralMaxtreme]

I'm not a big fan of having misspellings in the answer field.  To me it seems like a cheap shot, whereas having decoy elements seems like a more fair challenge.

[needapausebutton]

Got it, we'll save them mizpelings for some future language quiz!

So, then, let's try to ensure that the countries that we DO keep in the quiz are either inherently challenging, or have a couple of good decoys.

[citkeane]

I second AM on the misspellings.

I think swapping out China or Spain (two of the biggest offenders with regards repeating letters) for Monaco would be a good move. Monaco would introduce two new elements and only one repeat. 

It could also be a good idea to remove the need for the html L, which, albeit a good replacement, isn't ideal, by swapping Palau for NAuRu (which would keep the Gold and introduce a new element with Ruthenium) and Palestine for either BaHAmAs (introducing Arsenic with no elements that are already over-repeated) or SiNGaPoRe/SInGaPoRe (introducing Polonium, Gallium and possibly Silicon).

[citkeane]

Alternately, if we're happy with the L-situation, Pakistan for SiNGaPoRe/SInGaPoRe or BaHAmAs could be a good idea, seeing as Pakistan is composed entirely of repeats, including one of what is a pretty high number of Nitrogens.

[needapausebutton]

I love the idea of getting rid of the lower-case-L problem altogether.

I'm for your suggestions in your post-before-last, but at this point I'd also like to hear Teddy109711 weigh in, as this would involve removing some  original clues.

So, Teddy, are you ok with citkeane proceeding with:

1) Swapping out China or Spain for Monaco?

2) Swapping Palau for Nauru?

3) Swapping Palestine for Bahamas or Singapore?

and from the most recent post above, 4) Deleting Pakistan due to its high # of repeats?

p.s. I think that citkeane should factor in the "decoyability" of whichever were to be used as replacements

[citkeane]

I'm happy to make whatever changes tomorrow. I'll check back then. As it is teddy's idea I agree his opinion deserves to be heard.

[zalkon2004]

It goes without saying but I'll say it anyway just for completeness that as we change the answers we'll need to possibly change/remove some decoys accordingly.

If Monaco goes in, I like Manganese (Mn) as a decoy. MoNaCo might throw some off.

Absolutely agree on teddy's opinion!

[Daniel Hodgson]

Yes I like the idea of getting rid of the repeats, go right ahead and swap them out.

Don't expect to here much from me then next two days beside nighttime, I am occupied with day-long district chorus.

[needapausebutton]

 ♬ Sing on! ♫

We'll mosey along and experiment with all of that stuff, you can peek in when you're free.

Again, we are not rushing this, so nothing will be decided permanently without your looking it over.

- napb

[zalkon2004]

My votes for what countries should be replaced/removed would be FInLaNd, UKRaINe, and PaKISTaN.

They are all made up of repeat elements (except for Radium in Ukraine and both uses of Potassium - which would then make a great decoy for any elements starting with P especially because the actual symbol is K). It would reduce Iodine from 5 uses (which seems excessive) to 3. Sulfur, Uranium & Nitrogen from 4 to 3, Tantalum, Neon & Lanthanum from 3 to 2; Fluorine, Indium, Neodymium & Protactinium to a single usage.

On another note Curium (Cm) is a natural decoy for CuBa, so I'm going to add that into the quiz for now.

[needapausebutton]

zalk:  If citkeane concurs, could the two of you go ahead and do those?  thanks

[citkeane]

As preliminary changes, I went ahead and swapped Palau for Nauru, Palestine for Bahamas (resolving the lower case L issue) and Pakistan for Singapore. We can undo any of those changes if necessary. The next decision is deciding what country we want to swap out for MoNaCo. Will it be Spain, China or Finland. Or is there an even bigger repeat offender.

[citkeane]

Oh and Ukraine was also a possibility zalkon mentioned. So that's on the chopping board as well.

[citkeane]

Sorry for all the posts but I think I might go ahead make a call (which can be undone) and remove Finland and Ukraine for Kosovo and Monaco. Although I had suggested cutting China and Spain, I just spotted Spain brings a unique element to the game (Protactinium) and I think China is a pretty ideal, 'easy' start to the game as it is made up of pretty well known elements. So I'll make those changes and  you can test it out.

[zalkon2004]

@citkeane - Great call on the swaps. Removing Finland and Ukraine brings Iodine down to a reasonable 3 uses. Really like your inclusions of Monaco and Kosovo. 

I'm going to add Manganese (Mn) as a possible decoy for Monaco to see how that looks.

[needapausebutton]

OK, let's do some more testing, whoever is up for that.

I'd like people to test it from TWO perspectives, if you have the time, and want to, of course :)

1) Play it "straight up" and try to do well; and make sure everything works correctly.  See how you "feel" afterwards, and "what comments you would think you'd be inclined to make, having just played it".

2) Play it AGAIN, but this time, AS IF you are "ignorant" about elements --- I'm mostly interested in this (at the moment).... As you attempt each portion of a given country, can you INTENTIONALLY find a decoy for at least one or two of them that "looks like a player might choose it"...

FYI: I've changed to "small" buttons for the moment. Since there are currently 66 choices, I think it looks better, it's easier to scan them, and players who have their monitors set at lower resolutions won't possibly face any scrolling issues.

[BanjoZebra]

Not to randomly jump in or anything, but I played the quiz and it was great.

Another possible decoy: Helium (He) for Hydrogen (H)

[mcomisky]

I just played the quiz "straight up" and I thought everything worked perfectly! Maybe there is a little too much time, but I'm not sure (I'm taking Chemistry this year, so I'm probably more familiar with elements than most people). I really like the decoy answers and I agree that it shouldn't be a minefield (but I think that issue has already been resolved)

One decoy that I thought might work is Rubidium or Rutherfordium as a decoy for Ruthenium. I thought of both of these answers for the Ru clue before I realized that neither of them were possible answers. So that might be a decoy worth adding.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks, BanjoZebra and mcomisky for joining in, and for your suggestions!

Along the lines of the decoys each of them mentioned…..

Please bear with me, as I try to continue to “flesh out” the following aspects……

I really want to stress my opinion that I feel that DECOYS are, by far, the primary key to this quiz’s potential success, (and perhaps also its “considerability” for an EP or a Publish).

I think we need a real good number of decoys -- both for the purposes of tripping up “guessers” AND to attempt to catch knowledgeable players “napping”.

Those which zalkon already put in are great, but I think we need more.

I’ve got a list of viable Decoys below that are not yet in the quiz, and I think for sure, that many of them should be.

But this would mean adding up to 18 new buttons to a field which is already fairly full…..

….Therefore, I hate to say this to patriotic Americans, but  I strongly recommend we consider deleting the “United States of America” set, which involves 13 buttons on its own, not including any proposed decoys below.  It would also remove EIGHT duplicate elements which are already in the quiz plus ANOTHER duplicate within the same clue-set; And its removal would also lower the total of new decoys recommended below by two….

So, we’d be adding 16 Good Decoys, and removing 13 buttons, for a net addition of only three, and a better overall quiz,  I feel.

And YES, I know that it "would be cool" to conclude the quiz with the U.S.A. but remember this: The purpose of attempting to create a really good quiz is to, well, create a really good quiz; and NOT try to "force it to include something that would be awesome to be able to include).

(Regarding the U.S. clue-set…. think “sequel” some day?)

Furthermore, remember, I’m NOT an expert (and I’m a FAR cry from it) regarding personally knowing all the correct matches for the element symbols, so I’m the “perfect guinea pig” for this quiz.....

.......So, I went through the Periodic Table, and asked myself, “which other elements could I easily have selected, were they present in the quiz?”

The following are the ones I came up with:

• CADMIUM For either the “C” of China, or the “Ca” of America
• HELIUM – for the “H” of CHina or BaHamas (BanjoZebra also has just suggested this)
• IRON – for any “I”, and in particular for the “In” of SIngapore or SpaIn
• ALUMINUM – for “Au” of Nauru, or the “Am” of BahAmas
  
• RUBIDIUM – for “Ru” of NauRu (mcomisky also has just suggested this)
• LAWRENCIUM – for the “La” of IreLand or NetherLands
• SILVER  - for any “S” because it looks like a perfect decoy for the first “S” for any naïve player, (and also as a 2^nd decoy for the  “SI” in Singapore for people not paying attention to cases).
• GADOLINIUM – for the “Ga” in Singapore
• PROMETHEUM – for the “Pr” in Cyprus (which then makes the choice for the “Pa” of Spain tougher later on if the earlier “Pr” was guessed wrong, since two “P-starting” elements containing an “a” would still be on the board)
• BISMUTH – for the “Bh” of Bhutan
• UNISEPTIUM – for any “U”
• THALLIUM – for both the “Ta” of BhuTan, and the “Th” of NeTherlands, and the “Ta” of States
• EUROPIUM – for either “Er” in NethErlands  or AmErica
• DYSPROSIUM – for either  “Ds” in NetherlanDs or UniteDstates
• ASTATINE – for the “As” in BahamAs
• TECHTENIUM – for the “Te” of StaTes, and UniTed or the “Th” of NeTherlands
• *NIOBIUM – for the “Ni” in United
• *FERMIUM – for the “F” in OF

* not needed if USA not used

[zalkon2004]

Looking at your list of possible decoys napb I think the best ones are:

Cadmium

Helium

Rubidium

Lawrencium

Silver

Gadolinium

Promethium

Europium

Dysprosium

Astatine

*Niobium

When I played the game earlier today I went played very casually, pausing to pretend to consider what I was selecting, taking a bite of breakfast before clicking, all without paying attention to the clock until after I finished - it took me just over 5 minutes. My suggestion would be somewhere between 6 to 8 minutes to begin with.

@mcomisky or BanjoZebra if either of you read this do you remember how long it took you approx.?

[zalkon2004]

Also as a decoy mcomisky's suggestion of Rutherfordium.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks z,

I think the key to this next step will be whether or not people are ok with (and agree) that it might be wise to remove U.S.A and pump up the decoys.

So let's wait for others to speak up before adding those. I think we'd have to remove U.S.A or the quiz field would just get too unwieldy.

The timer issue should wait until the quiz is "ready" then we can assess it based on how it plays at that time.

As a reminder, we only have it at 10 "for now" for the purposes of testing things out and jumping around.

- pause

[zalkon2004]

NAPB, yeah that was my thinking too. Just putting that other stuff out there for others consideration. Especially since I'm torn on the USA issue, I see both sides. It really boils down to "What's more important overall to the quiz, the decoys/amount of them vs. the novelty of USA. 

I really like how America contains Americium HOWEVER it's just one element. If the quiz benefits more from more decoys then that's what most important.

On some level a lot will depend on the prelim results after release. Is it too hard for casual science players/too easy for core audience.

[needapausebutton]

Ok, thanks zalk....

All:  I've temporarily added all of the decoys (for testing purposes), and just tried it again, and.....

*** My head did NOT explode when I was proceeding through the USA clue***

 And I did not find the size of the answer field to be unmanageable either

So, I think I will retract my earlier suggestion to delete USA.

I thought the decoys all work well. (The only one that I felt was no longer "pairable" with a real-answer as a viable decoy, was RADON which was a vestige of the earlier Ukraine clue, so I deleted that one).

Note: A good way to "look at" or assess the Decoy-situation, is to start the game, then immediately give up. Thus, all of the decoys will stand out clearly as white buttons. Then, you can compare them to the red buttons nearby, and see how they could be viable decoys for one or more.

The only clue-set that gave me a touch of uncertainty was Kosovo. I love the "K" for Potassium, but there are really no decoys for the rest of it.

What do people think of perhaps replacing it with Kiribati?

Kiribati would keep "K", would add Iridium as a real answer for "Ir" (while it still serves as a decoy for other parts of the quiz), give another opportunity to fool people with "Ti" (but would obviously add another Iodine and Barium) - but that's still four of five portions which are decoyable.

Kosovo would keep "K", has a duplicate Oxygen with the USA clue, but none of the other portions are really decoyable (I don't think people would mess up Osmium and Oxygen), and there is no "V" decoy available.

Thoughts?

By the way, I got a little excited that last time I played it, as I felt that we might be getting close here.... fingers crossed.

- napb

[zalkon2004]

Just played through it and it looks good on the screen. My head didn't explode either, thankfully (that would have been a PITA to clean up). 

I don't have any real objection to Kiribati (it works within the quiz although I don't really like bringing back an Iodine) but just for devil's advocate on Kosovo - if it stayed in it wouldn't be the worst thing to have an "easier" answer. Perhaps even moving it to a different spot in the quiz like near the beginning. A user presumably wouldn't have narrowed the field down as much so just the sheer volume of options may serve as a decoy even for an easier question (maybe not for Vanadium but the other elements in Kosovo. 

Think of it this way - Chain restaurants often have large menus which often cause indecision in customers, especially newer ones, simply because of the number of options available. Near the front of the quiz even a easier question could become harder simply because the number of potential options could cause second guessing.

And if it turns out that people "get" it, that could help first impressions. Many people love challenges, but many others just like the idea of a challenge. What they're really seeking is flattery. [Yes, I know how cynical that sounds ;) ] But if they get a question right early on that first impression of success may hold even if they "tank" in the rest of the quiz. Just some thoughts though, I'm not married to Kosovo.

 I share your sense of excitement napb, it's come together pretty well.

[skuban]

Just played it, and I have a few comments

1. The decoys are great. I found sometimes I was able to deduce which one was the correct answer, though, based on the number of decoys. For example, Dysprosium / Darmstadtium. I was able to figure out it was Darmstadtium because there were 2 of them, and only 1 Dysprosium. I think there should be an equal number of decoys.

2. I think the game should progress in order of number of elements in the name. So Cuba first, and obviously USA last. That compliments the whole "flattery success" thing Zalk was talking about.

3. Isn't it "Ununseptium", not "uniseptium" ?

[MovieGuru]

Is ununseptium on the quiz? I know nothing about elements, but I'm under the impression that ununseptium is not a real element.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks again, zalk, and now also to skuban, for chipping in. (And MovieGuru, your question is about to be moot – or at least different -- in a moment….)

UNISEPTIUM

My bad on “Uniseptium” for using the first source I came to when throwing the list of decoys together. There, I’ve now proven I don’t know all the elements!  :)

Actually, I like Ununtrium better, and replaced it. As to whether it is real? It’s on the Periodic Table, and in my book, that qualifies it as a reasonable decoy for the quiz, yes?

SEQUENCE OF CLUES

I’m on board with zalkon & skuban about wanting the quiz to start off with some easier ones (“flatter” some players, to keep them interested/confident, etc).

I just don’t know if that truly correlates to progressing in order of number of elements in the name.

• Cuba has a “stinger” right of the bat with “Cu” and its decoy.
• China has its “Na” for Sodium.
• Nauru has its “Au” for Gold.
• And Spain has Protactinium which is no gimme while Praseodymium is still in play.
• Even Kosovo, for all its otherwise simplicity, starts with Potassium.

I kind of like that it starts with China, though, especially since I’d expect MOST people will get the “C” and the “H”, and probably the “I” as well…… and Sodium is one of those “most people learn that one” elements.

Maybe Kosovo second, which should still keep the guessers happy with “…osovo”

By now, players should either be hooked, or they’re gonna quit regardless.

And personally, I like that the clue-sets alternate in length -- it sort of breaks it up and varies the pace; and, if in fact some shorter ones ARE easier, then it’s nice to throw the bone every now and then.

That said, it seems to me that all of them are pretty much “equal” in their likelihood of being considered easy or difficult.

I’m temporarily moving Kosovo to second and y’all can see how it feels.

 *** Please remember that any time I experiment with something, I’m NOT “deciding” for the group, but it’s easier to mull things over if postulated changes are actually made, at least temporarily.

MULTIPLE SAME-DECOYS

I’ve had the concern expressed by skuban in the back of my mind from the very start – that the presence of multiple identical buttons can be a “tell”.

I think there is no way around the fact that a large portion of the answers in the quiz will be “giveaways”, either due to the absence of viable decoys, or because once a player “gets” one of the Nitrogens and the Iodines, et al., usually they’re gonna get the rest in later instances.

Obviously, to try to have a quantity of Decoys commensurate with the quantity of all of the correct buttons would make the field monstrous.

Here are some thoughts about it:

The first time a player encounters a Letter/letter-pair, they are either going to know the element, or guess it.

• If they know it, the decoys don’t matter anyways.

• If they DON’T know it, the correct button on the board is NOT revealed when they guess wrong. Therefore:

• In cases where there are only TWO viable (“consider-able”) choices, such as in the example skuban gave of Dysprosium/Darmstadtium, if they get their “first crack at it” WRONG, they now know that the OTHER one is correct, for THAT letter sequence “Ds”. The question is, WILL THEY REMEMBER, when the second “crack at it” appears later on?

• In cases where there are THREE OR MORE “consider-able” choices, then they STILL don’t know which of the other ones is correct for that letter/letter-pair. So until they DO guess it right, the multiple appearances of one of them has not helped them.

No matter what we do, once they “get” Nitrogen, Iodine, and so forth, those are “done deals”

But maybe we should at least have a few multiple decoys, in order to make players go “hmmmmm” in instances where there are only TWO reasonable choices.

Again, for now, I’m experimenting, and have added an additional instance for only five of decoys.

 By now everyone must realize that this could be tinkered with endlessly, so let’s try to really get down to issues which clearly are a problem, if any are still noticed.

Thanks again to those of you who have the patience to re-look this.  We’ve come this far, so let’s maintain our patience in the home-stretch!  :)

- pause

 

[citkeane]

I don't know if I still need to come to the defence of Kosovo, as the conversation seems to have moved on, but it does bring two unique elements to the quiz and Osmium also acts as a decoy for the Oxygens, in the same way Iridium does for Iodine. I also liked Kiribati but I wasn't sure we could afford that extra Iodine.

Regarding the changes that have been made, I think the decoys all work pretty well. I probably have to back up MovieGuru about the unun- elements. I've seen sproutcm leave comments on quizzes before asking people to move unun- elements to the bonuses answers. This is down to the fact that those element have only been given stop gap names until a concrete name can be agreed upon. 

I know without ununtrium there isn't a dedicated decoy answer for uranium but I'm not sure we need specifically tailored decoys for each and every element.

I made the point earlier in the thread that China made for a good introductory elemental country, so I concur with it being left in that position. There are a number of candidates that could be proposed for the second slot but I don't think any of the others are significant improvements over Kosovo. I did like the contrast of going from China, the most populous and one of the largest countries, to Nauru, one of the smallest and least populous, but it does have two quite challenging symbols to navigate. 

No other suggestions really. Nice work.

[zalkon2004]

Yeah, we really could tinker forever. "You gotta know when the cake is baked."

I really like the decoys. I think that cake is baked. The ratio is basically 2/1 real answer to decoy which seems right, plus the symbols are already kinda clever/tricky how the IUPAC has them. I know that in playing through a few times I've been tripped up even though I know the answers, especially Thallium/Thorium & Arsenic/Astatine.

I like the inclusion of multiple instances of element decoys. It was a "tell" that the decoys were all single usage and I think the decoys are more "real" looking now. Since there were actual answers that were used several times there should be decoys used in the same manner. Plus, and napb touched on this, as someone progresses through the quiz it kind of doubles as a game of "Memory" for players not as well versed in element symbols.

On another note: I don't want to get ahead of ourselves but just want to pose this question.

There may be a use for Kiribati in the notes. What about using it as an example  by breaking it up like - K Ir I Ba Ti -  to demonstrate how the clues are structured and are to be interpreted. Most people will "get" the quiz right away, no problem. But it's always amazing to me how often I've played quizzes that I've thought were straightforward only to read in the comments that someone didn't understand what to do. I'd hate for one of those people to be among the early players and then bitterly drop a one-bomb on the quiz. My feeling is it's better to be overly explanatory than unclear.

I don't think an example would hurt the "trickiness"  of the single letter/double letter, uppercase/lowercase gimmick because we want them to understand that part. The difficulty comes from them remembering that structuring or element-symbol pairing or "facepalming" on a "stupid" mistake or just "not knowing in the first place"

I'm cool with China at the start. Actually seeing Kosovo in second makes me really think it could go either way - player either gets it right and is happy or the "K" trips them up and it's not as easy as feared. I think most will get it - I checked Element Abbreviations Quiz results (which isn't exactly a scientific poll, I know) but most people get Potassium. But there are plenty of opportunities for the player to screw up later in the quiz so...

[Daniel Hodgson]

What do you guys think about using "fake elements" for decoys. For example, rhenium is Re in IReLaNd, and there are no elements starting with Re (at least I think), and we could put something like "Rendium" (I'm not  good at making things up) and only the best will know.

It is a little bit of a cheapshot, but it separates the good from the best. So what do you guys think?

[skuban]

Actually I think that sounds like a good idea (in my opinion). The problem is making too many decoys. But I think that it could be a fun challenge for anybody vaguely familiar with the elements.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks all, as always for taking the time to keep testing, and making suggestions.

zalk: I have a note on my chair: "Add example", so we're on the same wavelength.

    But I don't want to use a word involving elements in the quiz - which would be giving away even more answers., so I'm going to put in a word (country or not) as an example, and y'all can see how it works in the game notes, and if it "gets across how the game is played"

teddy: I think we covered that earlier in this thread, when I proposed misspellings, and AdmiralMaxtreme thought it not to be a good idea, and I concurred. (And I do give a special amount of weight to advice from a curator who has played 13837 quizzes).

    As others have said, the quiz is in pretty good shape now decoy-wise. We don't need for EVERYTHING to have decoys. So even though I had originally had an idea similar to yours, teddy, I think it's not necessary. We'll go on tinkering with this forever at this rate.

citkeane and all: So, yeah, the "U" elements are not really "real", but they ARE on Periodic Tables these days. The question is do we delete Ununtrium as a decoy because it is not "real", or can we keep it since it is only a decoy. I don't think that sproutcm or anyone else could argue with its presence as a decoy, because a decoy could theoretically be ANYTHING, whether a made-up word, a misspelling, or an "element that has not been accepted yet as an official name".  And if sproutcm (as Science editor) did take offense to it once he sees it, we can remove it with the click of an eraser.

- pause

[needapausebutton]

Okeedokee......

I’ve gone ahead and “readied” the quiz for some last rounds of testing and feedback:

1)  I’ve added a sample to the game notes.

2)  The detailed instructions are for the benefit of players such as zalk mentioned.

I want to make sure that players are informed, going in, that:

• Elements must be picked, in order, “from left-to-right”
• When they first come to an upper-case letter, we will hopefully preclude the likelihood that a number of players might get frustrated -- wondering, right off the bat, why the “N” of China couldn’t be “Nitrogen”, or the first “O” in Kosovo be “Oxygen”. Players are much more prone to quit early, and/or down-rate a quiz when instructions are not clear to them (and they think they are “playing a quiz in good faith”).

3)  I set the timer at 8:00 for now.

It took me 6:00 to play it steadily/methodically, yet without “rushing” to those I knew. I’d absolutely rather have the timer be a bit “high” than too low. Feedback on the timer is welcome.

4)  I’ve also removed the “next/previous” buttons (which we had temporarily left in while adding/deleting clues) so that the quiz will play the way it will once contributed.

Remember, if those buttons were present,  players would be able to click ahead, see the answer, then click back and enter it. I’m aware that this PRECLUDES the ability for players to “skip ahead” and “return to certain ones later”, but I think that it is essential we disallow that:

• For the aforementioned reason
• That technique could also be used to “look ahead” and rule out decoys
• Certain clues and decoys work better “later on” having been “set up” by current clues.

(For example, players  first get CHINa, and the Na of Sodium -- and get it right, but when they get to NAuRu we might trick some people who fall asleep when they see “NA” and, whoops, pick Sodium again -- since the letters “n-a” are still on their mind).

5)  As an fyi, in case this matters to anybody -- about the use of the word “Ununtrium” as a decoy: Sporcle’s original Periodic Table Quiz (created by the “original Matt”) has Ununtrium in it without any disclaimer, so I now feel even more comfortable about using it as a decoy… yes?

6)  Just out of curiosity:  Has anyone else been tripped up (as I have, about FOUR times) when you get to the last three blanks for Netherlands? Since the blank for the “N” appears under the “D” I keep missing/skipping that Nitrogen (as my eyes are drawn to the "D"). I don’t think there is anything we should “do” about it, though, as it seems like a nice little “trip-up” spot for players not paying attention…. agreed?

7)  Is everyone happy with the quiz title being simply (and elegantly, I feel) “Elementary Countries”? I see no need to put the word “clickable” into titles these days, as the novelty has worn off, and I don’t think it would either “draw” or “repel” players to the quiz.

Test Away!!

Thanks,

-napb

[needapausebutton]

and, i couldn't help myself, i just had to make the url-ending:  elementary-my-dear-tungsten-astatine-sulfur-oxygen-nitrogen

yes?

[zalkon2004]

I just played through again. 

I noticed and fixed a couple spelling errors, Molybdenum/Technetium/Promethium. 

I think the timer is about right. I've been playing slowly and each time it takes between 5 and 6 minutes. I can't imagine someone needing more than 8, I mean you either know or you don't at that point!

I think your explanation is very good NAPB. I think the expectations of the quiz are clearly laid out. 

I don't think it's necessary to put clickable in either...I only still do it with my own quizzes because I know someone who Sporcles who only plays clickables, lol.

[Daniel Hodgson]

I gotta say, I love the URL and the quiz. You all have turned this into an excellent quiz. Thank you all, and well done, well done.

[citkeane]

Here's the link again if anyone is feeling lazy: http://www.sporcle.com/games/test/16183b

I also played through it going at what I felt would be a slow-ish pace, pretending I'd never seen the quiz before, and had 2:23 on the clock at the end. However, I do agree about it being preferable to be TOO generous with the time rather than the time becoming a MAJOR factor in the game. 

Like, napb, there are a few places in the game that could become major tripping up points for players but hopefully it won't be the source of any criticism. The main one I have in mind is Darmstadtium in the USA sequence and that space in between. There isn't really anything that can be done to resolve that but considering there aren't any elements with D as their symbol, I suppose the people who DO stumble at that point DESERVE to do so.

I also think the note should protect from criticism and is very diligently and nicely written. Well done on that, napb. 

Aside from that I've nothing to say. Sorry if those spelling mistakes were my doing.

[needapausebutton]

teddy109711:    "You all" includes a very big YOU!!!

Your idea was, and is, the heart and soul of this quiz!  The rest of us are merely technicians.

✭  Thanks for having what I always felt to be a really cool idea
✭  Thanks for kicking me in the *** to get it back on track (and I mean that truly, all things said and done)
✭  Thanks for being open-minded and allowing the group to step in and work on it -- a hallmark of the best creative thinkers!

- me

[needapausebutton]

zalk and citkeane, thanks.

• If there are any other meticulous proof-readers out there, I'd love to have as much spell-checking done as possible at this point. I personally did not do that at all!

*****   So if anyone can "second" that zalk has "caught" all of them, we'd all really appreciate that! *****

• I added quotation marks to the word "Elementary" in the title.

The reason is this: We don't want players to assume it is a quiz about "knowledge of countries"... so the quotation marks serve the purpose of making players who see the quiz title go "hmmmmmm, just why is that in quotes".....  Too often I've seen quizzes also bombed by players who felt they were mislead in some way. The quotes (and the initial uncertainty about why they are there) should also help to ensure that more players will actually take the time to look at the "Can you...." instructions, and hopefully the game notes.

[AdmiralMaxtreme]

I second that.  I just did a thorough spell check, and I didn't find anything.

[Daniel Hodgson]

It really is a privilege to work in this awesome group, I just can't wait for to start working on the next awesome quiz.

[needapausebutton]

Thanks AdMax!!

Anybody else out there who wants to test it, that would be great: http://www.sporcle.com/games/test/16183b

Although I want EVERYONE'S feedback, I'd especially like to hear from those of you who have previously contributed in this thread....

So if you could each post saying that it is "ready to go" then we'll be set to contribute it

• If it's a green light, then I'll probably look to Monday mid-to-late evening as the time I'll release it.

Thanks.

[Daniel Hodgson]

I think it is ready, everything seems good

[David Quatrone]

I am not that great at elements (going to get that badge over the summer!), and I did the quiz for the first time just now.  I had about 1 1/2 minutes left, so I think you did a good job on pegging timing.  It's a great quiz.  You did a great job.  And the instructions are good.  My only question is will most people know what is meant by a decoy?  But a minor quibble.  Awesome job!!!

(Sorry citkeane, didn't mean to send this to you previously...I am just a computer moron!)

Cyril

---

From: needapausebutton <na...@roadrunner.com>
To: bunchof...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, February 9, 2013 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: Elementary Countries Quiz

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "BunchofCurators" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to bunchofcurato...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
 
 

[AdmiralMaxtreme]

I think it's ready as well.  I just did a final run-through, and things seem to be working the way they should.

[zalkon2004]

I really can't think of anything we've missed. Don't want to say not to expect the unexpected but at this point I think we've gone as far as we can go without going live. I'll play it a few more times tomorrow as well. You've got a green light here.

[needapausebutton]

OK thanks to the above folks; and last-minute testing is still welcome from anybody.

If everything still seems to be in order (aside from any last-minute tweaking necessary which I'll take care of if mentioned),

I'll probably release it between 10pm to 10:30pm EST tonite (Monday)

And in case anybody is wondering, in spite of its awesomeness, I don't see the quiz as a viable candidate for the "most-played" box immediately upon its release, given its length. So I'd rather it get some exposure earlier than midnight, when more "general" players are active in the U.S. & Canada (and yeah, I realize that that particular decision is moot for those of you, and players, who are in much different time zones).

- napb

[needapausebutton]

It's..... Alive!  

And Here It Is!