Full length resizing 38 Special cases

[Ralph Wilson]

There's been talk in the not too recent past about cases accumulating
a bulge near the base after a few cycles of firing / reloading. Some of
the suggestions included using the Redding full full length / push through
sizing die. This could work fine for 45, 9mm and 38 super. I am now having
such a problem with 38 specials with my Model 52. Some of my brass for
my 45 have been reloaded close to 10 times (ok, I'm a cheap a** engineer)
without any bulge issues. However, after as few as two reloadings, much of
my 38 Special brass won't fully chamber because of the bulge down below
where my resizing die won't reach. Could be I'm overloading the 38
Specials???
I'm using 3.2gr of W231 behind Hornady HBWCs with a pretty aggressive crimp.
Thoughts?

I'm looking for (or thinking about making) a "square mouth" carbide
resizing die.
One of the earliest carbide dies I have had a very square mouth - before
they
started rounding the mouth to facilitate case feeding into the die.
Unfortunately,
it's 45 ACP, not 357. Does anyone have an old 38/357 carbide die with a
square
mouth they'd be interested/willing to part with? Anyone have experience
with
turning a die in a lathe? I'm hoping I might be able to cut away the
non-carbide
portion at the bottom of the sizing die enough to where I'm just short
of the
carbide and hence can get more of the case resized. I may have to do
some work
on the shell holder to lower its profile as well. Has this problem been
solved
already?

Redding has about a 6 - 9 month queue for making custom dies.....

Ralph

[Pauley, Dan (RR Energy Systems)]

I would consider a couple of things. Keep the load as low as you
possibly can and the gun still function. Use a soft lead swaged bullet
if possible.
Use Federal brass where you can.

Check the chamber of your barrel. Might be someone got over zealous
making sure it would feed easy and left much unsupported.

Can't remember the name but I remember seeing a "roll sizer" It pushed
the cases between two hardened steel parallel bars. Might do a google
search on that and see what pops up.

R. Dan Pauley

[Pauley, Dan (RR Energy Systems)]

Ralph, Just out of curiosity are you using a Lee Factory crimp die to
install the roll crimp?

If not that may be causing it. While installing the crimp the base of
the case is squatting and bulging.

R. Dan Pauley

[Ralph Wilson]

Dan,

Yes, as a matter of fact I am. Good idea - I'll take a look at that. I
can measure
some cases as I'm working them through the reloading process and see
if this is an issue.

Great idea!
Thanks,
Ralph

[David T. Hughes]

Found this link to the case-pro roll sizing equipment. They say they do
custom dies, so you might contact them and see what they suggest.
http://www.casepro100.com/index.html

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[David Daniels]

Ralph, I one time had a problem with reloads fitting into the
chamber. Long story short, is that I had gotten some .359 diameter
lead bullets and had used some thick walled military brass. This
combo was too fat to feed. The worst had cases accordion due to the
long bullet making for too much drag while being seated.

Check bullet diameter and type of brass. This may not be YOUR problem.

dd

[Ron Karpel]

Another possibility is that the cases are crashed by the setting die. From what I can see, the edges of the stem inside the die is big enough to press down on the case mouth.

Ron

Ralph

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[AmmoGuru]

It is the combination of the sizer and the crimp die that causes the bulge.  The sizer can't get to the rim because it is stopped by the shell plate.  Next, when you crimp the case, the crimp die applies pressure on the case as it folds the mouth around.  This causes the base of the weakened case to bulge even more and now the case will not chamber.  This, BTW is a very dangerous condition, as it is one of the primary causes of an "out of battery discharge."

The answer, "Roll Sizing!"  This is one of the operations that separate home reloader's from commercial ammunition manufacturers.  A Roll Sizer costs about $10,000 now.

I offer processing as a service, which includes roll sizing of your brass.  Part of the process is also checking the cases for cracks and splits.

Unfortunately, the only way you can sort your 38 cases is will a 38 case gauge, and the Midway gauges are tighter than the Dillon.  I have had marginal results with the Dillon gauge.  It is an arduous process.

Regards,
Neil
NSK Co.
410.833.2100 | Fax:410.833.2101
n...@nsksales.com

[David Daniels]

Midway gauges used to be sold in sets of six; one set for semi auto pistol calibers, and the other set for revolvers.  These sets sold years ago for (IIRC) approx $26 each set.  I bought both.  Now, ONE gauge is a min of $15!!!

Midway no longer lists them.

dd

p.s.  Glad to hear that the Midway gauges are of quality.

[Bruce Martindale]

Carbide dies are usually made by pressing a carbide ring into a steel die recess and rolling it in place   You can't machine it and if you grind it, the ring just falls out   One solution is old fashioned steel dies with lubed brass   They lack the most aggressive radius used in progressive dies   You'll get closer to the base but not perfect.   If Neil will process your brass you may be better off.   I had a 52 for years and the brass wouldnt work in revolvers   No need for excessive crimp though --- On Sat, 6/9/12, AmmoGuru <ammo...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[jerrygoldfarb]

Can anyone comment on the inherent accuracy of a 610 vs. 25-2?  I see that the 610 in .40 S&W and 10mm are used in other diciplines with some success.

[Kent]

I used my 3-7/8" S&W 610-3, topped with an 25mm 4moa UltraDot, to win the Mid-Atlantic Revolver Regional 1800 Match at Anne Arundel Fish & Game in Annapolis, Maryland last year. My score with the 610 was 830- or 840-something (I didn't record exact score), and I was using some pretty light 10mm loads - 180gr cast truncated cone bullet from Missouri Bullet Co., 4.35gr W231, seated to 1.247" OAL. It seemed to be pretty consistent in my hands, both at the long line (50yds) and at the short line (25yds).

I used the same 610, same set-up, with lighter loads (140gr cast truncated cone bullet from Missouri Bullet Co., 4.35gr W231, 1.247" OAL) to take 8th place at the 2011 Walt Wise Memorial Police-L Pistol Match at Harrisburg Hunters & Anglers in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania last year. Again, seemed pretty consistent (25yds only this time). The 610 (with a different load - 155gr Missouri Bullet Co. LSWC over 4.35gr W231, unknown OAL) was my back-up gun for the Capital 1800 at HH&A in November of last year. I didn't end up needing it, though in practice it was fine at 25 yards (didn't try at 50 yards; the 1800 was a short-line indoor match).

I'd say that my 610 is 'accurate enough'.  I haven't used my 25-2 in competition yet, though I've had it produce some excellent groups at the long line with a 200gr Missouri Bullet Co. LSWC over 4.30gr of AA#2 in .45 AutoRim cases with an OAL of 1.189" (and some poor groups with 185gr LSWC bullets over the same charge and OAL), and I shot my first ever clean centerfire short-line target (in practice) with my 25-2 (and that 200gr LSWC load).

I believe the main reason the 610 is used in other disciplines (IDPA, IPSC) is that shooters can make the minimum power factor with .40S&W cartridges and get the fastest possible reloads in a revolver with the moon-clipped rounds (faster than .38 Special with a speedloader, or even .38 Special with the cylinder cut to accept a moonclip, since .40S&W is a shorter, fatter round and the charge holes are bigger).

-Kent

[Jeffrey Bromberger]

All the way back in June, Kent and Jerry were talking 10mm:

Jerry> Can anyone comment on the inherent accuracy of a 610 vs. 25-2? I see
that
Jerry> the 610 in .40 S&W and 10mm are used in other diciplines with some
success.

Kent> I used my 3-7/8" S&W 610-3, topped with an 25mm 4moa UltraDot, to win
the Mid-Atlantic
Kent> Revolver Regional ... I was using some pretty light 10mm loads
Kent> I'd say that my 610 is 'accurate enough'.

Now that I'm basically settled back down, I can chime in. Shot the Reeves
match with my 610-0. Six inch model with unfluted cylinder and Pachmayer
Decelerator grips. Heavy as anything. Using Hornady XTP heads powered by
8.3 grains of Accurate #5. From a Ransom Rest, it easily puts 20 shots
within a 10 ring at 50 yards, with most either just making or just missing
the X ring. Thanks to NSK for all his advice on how to develop the load!

Accuracy is one thing, recoil another. It is a studly round - a friend from
PA told me that this is pretty close to his wife's Handgun Hunting load for
deer - and even the local line officer (hi!) commented that it was certainly
more powerful than most anything else on the line at the time. Recoil was
sliding the Ultradot in the rings - need to come up with a good fix for
that, I think.

Did I mention that a six inch, stainless, full underlug N-frame revolver is
heavy? I was struggling through Slow Fire, even more than usual. Timed and
Rapid were pretty nice, and this kept me going along. I certainly need to
build up extra wrist strength to hold this gun. Normally, I shoot about
810's with the gun in matches, but my slow fire wobble doomed that 90%
performance level.

Three lessons learned:

A) Archer not bow. I may have been told by many that I'm crazy for shooting
odd calibers at bullseye matches, but you can be successful at it if you
keep to the basics and realize that a pistol/revolver is nothing more than a
marker for your trigger control skills. Next time, I may use my S&W 657 in
41 Rem Mag. :-)

B) Just because you choose to shoot an oddball caliber, please don't assume
that the range officials will have a plug for it. Or an overlay. Bring
your own - it can save you a point or two.

C) If you win a Reeves shirt, get there EARLY to claim it. By the time I
collected mine, I had the choice from "Sausage Casing" or "Oscar Mayer
Wiener Skin". Seriously, who in their right mind gets T-shirts in any size
less than L or XL these days? So my shirt won't (read: can't) be worn, but
hung in a shadowbox as the award it is.

J, using 10mm to get a T-Shirt for the first time - hopefully not the last
time.
---
Jeffrey L. Bromberger
jef...@tram.com

[Pauley, Dan (RR Energy Systems)]

Congrats on the 10mm shirt. To be honest I didn't think you'd make it
as accurate as required to get the job done.
Yes get the t-shirt early. I got my XL. Last year's shirt may end up
mounted. I used that spray sun screen and it browned up the neck and
sleeve area of a white shirt.
I used a .45 to get it. Next year, I'm thinking of .44 special. I like
the odd ball as well.

I'm not sure a .41 could be made accurate and Light loaded. Possibly a
fluffy powder like trail boss. Now you have me thinking...

R. Dan Pauley

[Jeffrey Bromberger]

> Congrats on the 10mm shirt.

Wanna know what burns me, besides the t-shirt size fiasco? Look at the logo
on the FRONT of this year's shirt. It is the same Camp Perry logo as *last
year*, just with a date change. Not the Postage Stamp flavor we had this
year. Seems somebody felt that the design that was chosen was not suitable
for a shirt...

> To be honest I didn't think you'd make it as accurate as required to get
the job done.

Again, thanks go all to NSK for explaining how to make things work right.
The gun is/was the gun, but the ammo made all the difference.

> Next year, I'm thinking of .44 special. I like the odd ball as well.

Have an almost brand-new, in-the-box Model 24-3 that could be used for this.
Or not.

J

[Bruce Martindale]

I have taken a shirt just about every year since it started and I always did it with Iron sighted 38's; usually a 6" K38 but also an 8 3/8 M27 all with wadcutters.SWC anything needs to be much faster for 50 yds, you can have a decent light shortline load.    Jeff and I are opposites: My nemesis has always been rushing thru the ball matches. This year I rushed everything except revolver :( . No training strikes again.   I now have a 32 H&R with a scope only because it came that way but I see no advantage to a 32 or even a scope if you can still see clearly.  I have no idea how a 32H&R factory load would shoot at 50 yds; anyone try?   I will do something different next year; choices choices. what shall I use? I think its M25 time unless the 32 starts to shine. regards --- On Fri, 7/20/12, Pauley, Dan (RR Energy Systems) <dan.p...@rolls-royce.com> wrote:

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[Jeffrey Bromberger]

> Jeff and I are opposites

That's debatable. I envision the differences more like that double stick
pendulum toy that they use to show chaos.

> My nemesis has always been rushing thru the ball matches.

Listening to a much better High Master, he tells me that shooting Slow Fire
does not necessarily have to take more than 3 or 4 minutes, and yet keep
them all solidly within the 9 ring. Did you not mean "rushing" but
"shooting overly quickly for the situation"?

> No training strikes again.

Amen, Brother.

This year, I have been slacking off on local matches. Poor scores lead to
lack of enthusiasm, which leads back to more poor scores. The only thing
that I swore I was going to do was to get a T-shirt, even if I had to swipe
one from the Awards office. So I came against my old frenemy, dry fire.
Get used to the revolver trigger, enough so that I can cock and drop the
hammer without a second thought. Then the reptile mind puts the dot in the
center, and I just stand there as nature takes over.

> I see no advantage to a 32 or even a scope if you
> can still see clearly.

The scope helped in one way. When the recoil whacked me back hard, I used
my ingrained habits from the 45 to get the dot back (and stable) into the
center of the target. Otherwise, with that 10mm, I would still be hunting
for that front sight somewhere.

> I will do something different next year; choices choices.
> what shall I use? I think its M25 time unless the 32 starts to shine.

Skip the 32 altogether, IMHO. Yeah, it's a nice gun, and people shoot this
round out of semi-autos on CF day, but you might as well look for any
advantage you can get. And there is more downside to 50yd shooting a 32
than upside.

You've mentioned (and I agree) that anybody who tells you about shooting
puffball loads in a revolver has never tried for 50yd accuracy. You need to
drive that lead at a good clip to get it past the cylinder gap. That's why
I am probably not going to go to any caliber bigger than that 10. Just too
much mass to move downrange, if I'm explaining myself well.

I cannot say for sure, and somebody out there will possibly shoot my theory
full of holes (pardon this pun), but I suspect that the 357/38 is the
absolute perfect combination for the medium frame revolver.

J

PS: If you wanna borrow the 610 next year, it can be arranged!

[Bruce Martindale]

Opposites in our obstacles: You usually make P100 and I always get a Tshirt   Yes we are both distinguished in Service, Revolver and P100 but we mess up different things   I am done with SF fairly fast, say 5 minutes and when its good, its good. If I misgrip or flinch or ... you name it then right, stinko.   I have been rushing sustained and leaking points unnecessarily. Almost autopilot and unstoppable; some training time or even better use of the practice day would have helped me greatly and I have loggeed it in the journal.     By the time I hit the Ball team matches I had taken the pressure off and shot good sustained scores of 98 and 96.   regards   --- On Fri, 7/20/12, Jeffrey Bromberger <jef...@tram.com> wrote: