Nelson Conversion Kit, Malfunctions

[walt...@comcast.net]

Hello Members

 

Went to the range yesterday to try out my new Nelson unit on top of my Springfield (SS) Trophy Match.

Man, what a mess. Nothing but malfunctions. Tried all kinds of different ammo. No help.

I finally determined (?) that the mag sits too high in the well and pushes against the ejector which in turn causes the slide to drag

and behave erratically. Sometimes not going into battery, causing stovepipes, etc. I plan on widening the notch on the mag so the mag sits lower and clears the ejector.  I have not contacted Nelson yet hoping that this fix works. I find this odd considering that all the components

should be in specs. As anyone had a similar situation with this unit or others?

 

                                 Regards, Walt

[Mike Westock]

My Marvel conversion fit perfectly on a Springfield frame but I had the same issue when I tried it on a Rock River ball gun frame. The answer  was to replace the magazine latch assy. This allowed the mag to sit lower.
Mike W_

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[D Rodgers]

Your problems are not due to the conversion its the frame. I just installed my nelson on a Caspian frame and it runs like butter. Ive built 4 marvels over the years and all required the frame componets tweaking as will the nelson if things dont work right. I would try replacing the mag catch first as someone else said and go from there. Make sure the slide stop is seated all the way and dont over tighten the front bolt holding the unit in place

Sent from my iPhone

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[walt...@comcast.net]

Hello Members

 

Thanks for the replies.  To answer some questions, I am using the (both) magazines supplied with the unit.

I do have some GSG mags on order. I don't think it is a recoil spring issue.? I can see the mag clearly pushing the ejector up and slightly bending it when the mag is seated.  I don't understand how changing the mag release catch would help? Aren't they all the same size and specs?

But that would be a easy quick convenient fix. I' ll try the mag notch widening trick and see it that works. If not time to contact Nelsons.

In fact if it does work I'll still contact them.

 

                                                                          Regards, Walt

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From: walt...@comcast.net
To: bullsey...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:15:41 AM
Subject: {Bullseye L List} Nelson Conversion Kit,  Malfunctions

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[walt...@comcast.net]

Which mag catch should I use? Aren't they all the same? Might be time to phone Nelsons.

 

                            Thanks for the help, Walt

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From: "D Rodgers" <hwy9...@bellsouth.net>
To: walt...@comcast.net
Cc: bullsey...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 8:47:34 AM
Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Nelson Conversion Kit,  Malfunctions

[walt...@comcast.net]

Hello Members

I will phone the Nelsons and explain the problem to them. I'm really beginning to like the replace or modify mag catch idea.

Much simpler and convenient fix. But what mag catch to use?

                                   Thanks again,  Walt

 

 

 

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From: walt...@comcast.net
To: bullsey...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 8:56:34 AM
Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Nelson Conversion Kit,  Malfunctions

[David Rifkin]

in fact, the mag catches are NOT all the same.  A smith here in NE Florida was studying the Marvel.  Malfunctions are often caused by what engineers and machinists call "stacking" tolerances.  This means that everything may be in spec, but when you add up all the tolerances that are "just in", they can result in malfunctions.

The Marvel he was building for me (on an old Essex frame that wouldn't shoot my last Marvel reliably.....and I did tell him that :-) had feeding issues, all the kinds.  So we studied all the dimensions on the unit and determined that the mag height was different on different receivers.

So he measured a dozen mag releases and found them to vary widely in dimension causing the mag to sit at different heights in the frame.  He found one that worked perfectly in my lower unit.  Put 200 rounds through it yesterday (Aguilla SE) with both mags and zero feeding issues.

Attached is an old paper that I think Bob Marvel did for tuning the Marvel unit.

x-dude

[John Coulter]

On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:06 AM, David Rifkin <subm...@comcast.net> wrote:

> in fact, the mag catches are NOT all the same. A smith here in NE Florida
> was studying the Marvel. Malfunctions are often caused by what engineers
> and machinists call "stacking" tolerances. This means that everything may
> be in spec, but when you add up all the tolerances that are "just in", they
> can result in malfunctions.

My Advantage unit will not run on my wadgun frame, but it does run on
my ball gun frame. I had a devil of a time finding mags that would
feed reliably. I tried the Advantage mags (older and newer versions),
GSG mags, and finally ended up using old Kimber mags with heavy
springs added. Now it runs great, and I can swap my ball slide with
the conversion with no issues.

It is true that sometimes you have to experiment quite a bit to find
the right combination of parts, particularly if you are not using a
dedicated frame for your conversion unit.

JC

[walt...@comcast.net]

Hello Members

Thanks for all the help. As far as I can figure I need a mag release with a shelf which is "actually" lower so the mag sits lower. I will modify one of my supplied mag by filing the notch (top side) a bit more until it sits lower in the frame and clears the ejector. I considered buying a different mag release but I'll hold off on that. Won't be able to test fire the gun until Thursday. Should be interesting. And thank for the Marvel notes very informative. Oh and I will get back to everyone with a report. And oh again I'm looking forward to trying the GSG mags.

                               Thanks again, Walt

 

 

erom: "John Coulter" <contac...@gmail.com>
To: "Bullseye-L" <bullsey...@googlegroups.com>
Cc: walt...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 1:56:03 PM

Subject: Re: {Bullseye L List} Nelson Conversion Kit, Malfunctions

[Larry Lang]

(John Coulter said:)

My Advantage unit will not run on my wadgun frame, but it does run on
my ball gun frame. I had a devil of a time finding mags that would
feed reliably. I tried the Advantage mags (older and newer versions),
GSG mags, and finally ended up using old Kimber mags with heavy
springs added. Now it runs great, and I can swap my ball slide with
the conversion with no issues.

It is true that sometimes you have to experiment quite a bit to find
the right combination of parts, particularly if you are not using a
dedicated frame for your conversion unit.

JC

Considering this is an over one hundred year old design to mate with, all the various conversion units can do well. Tolerances from one manufacturer to the next may make it necessary to hand-fit the problematic component.

They all can be made to work. Remember to cut, file, bend or in any way alter the cheapest part first.
Larry (WA)

[Larry Lang]

On 4/15/2014 11:15 AM, walt...@comcast.net wrote:

Hello Members

Thanks for all the help. As far as I can figure I need a mag release with a shelf which is "actually" lower so the mag sits lower. I will modify one of my supplied mag by filing the notch (top side) a bit more until it sits lower in the frame and clears the ejector. I considered buying a different mag release but I'll hold off on that. Won't be able to test fire the gun until Thursday. Should be interesting. And thank for the Marvel notes very informative. Oh and I will get back to everyone with a report. And oh again I'm looking forward to trying the GSG mags.

                               Thanks again, Walt

Remember if you lower the magazine too far the follower may not intercept the slide latch.
File a little and check, repeat as necessary
Larry (WA)

[Ed Masaki]

IF IT IS FOR A 45 TRY USING A METALFORM MAGAZINE WITH THEIR ROUND
FOLLOWER. THEY ARE THE ONLY ONES MAKING THOSE ROUND FOLLOWERS. ED M.

My Advantage unit will not run on my wadgun frame, but it does run on my
ball gun frame. I had a devil of a time finding mags that would feed
reliably. I tried the Advantage mags (older and newer versions), GSG mags,
and finally ended up using old Kimber mags with heavy springs added. Now it
runs great, and I can swap my ball slide with the conversion with no issues.

It is true that sometimes you have to experiment quite a bit to find the
right combination of parts, particularly if you are not using a dedicated
frame for your conversion unit.

.

[Jerry Lehrer]

Ed,

I have 2 Metalform .22 Ace magazines which work perfectly well in my
Kart Conversion, but
they don't have round followers. The followers are the same as the Kart
magazines.

I have used Colt Service Model Ace mags, but they have plastic
followers, which do get
deformed actuating the slide stops.

Jerry

[Ed Masaki]

Ed,
I have 2 Metalform .22 Ace magazines which work perfectly well in my Kart
Conversion, but they don't have round followers. The followers are the same
as the Kart magazines.
I have used Colt Service Model Ace mags, but they have plastic followers,
which do get deformed actuating the slide stops.
Jerry

HI JERRY, I WAS TALKING ABOUT A 45 PISTOL MAGAZINES. SORRY ABOUT
THE MIX UP. ED M.

[walt...@comcast.net]

Hello Clark

Thanks for the reply. As a matter of fact I did change out the springs. I installed a 17 lb. Wolf main (hammer)  spring and a Cylinder & Slide lightweight sear spring which brought the trigger pull down to approx. 3 1/4 lb. I did file the notch on one of the supplied mags and now it sits lower in the gun and clears the ejector ( I filed just enough so the mag clears by about .010-.015).I hope this works. We'll find out Thursday night. I'm also waiting on my GSG mags.  

                                                     Thanks, Walt

 

 

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From: "Clark2245" <clar...@triad.rr.com>
To: walt...@comcast.net
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2014 7:17:12 PM
Subject: RE: {Bullseye L List} Nelson Conversion Kit, Malfunctions

Walt, one other factor with the conversions that I don’t believe was mentioned yet is the strength of the main spring (hammer spring) in the 1911 frame.   The slide must cock the hammer, therefore overcoming the force of the main spring, with each shot so that is capable of causing the same sort of problem you are describing.   For example the Marvel comes with a 9# recoil spring which is fine with most ammo if you have around a 19# main spring in the 1911 frame.   If however you have a ‘full strength’ main spring at around 21-22# you often have to go to an 8 or even a 7# recoil spring in the marvel conversion to make things function.   Just too strong for standard velocity 22 ammo to overcome, along with all the other friction that is naturally involved.   Plus maybe some from your mags like you are thinking.  

 

Can either reduce the recoil spring in the unit or change the main spring in the frame, though that will change the trigger pull weight so be sure and adjust that (or have someone who knows how take a look).   Just another idea for you in trouble shooting the problem.   Good luck.

 

Clark

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[Jack H]

Right now I have the Nelson/Bob Marvel conversion on my Roddy made Les Baer frame but I am using an Advantage Arms slide stop piece.  Advantage Arms mags and Nelson mags are working equally well. 

Some mag-slide stop combinations do not work as well. 

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