world brain and global game

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Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 2:47:43 PM4/16/11
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I have gotten more out of this list's active contributors than any other list I have browsed that I can remember.  Thank you.

Where I think we are headed is toward a world brain and global game, which is where 24 of of us including Medard Gabel, the co-creator
with Buckminster Fuller of the analog World Game, have been focused since 2006.  It boils down to facts, things, minds, and opinions.

Reference: World Brain Institute & Global Game

I have been a complete failure at getting anyone with funding interested--my preferred shot, Sir Richard Branson, is protected by corporate development folks that just cannot compute the value of "The Virgin Truth" on top of giving free open source cell phones to the three billion poor and monetizing the back end via call centers that both educate one cell call at a time, and serve as the virtual brain for the community, nation, region, globe.

There are two others whose work I would mention, the first for his interest in Open Hypertextdocument System (linking at paragraph level), and the second for Internet Economy Meta-Language.

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Douglas Engelbart

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Pierre Levy

I am personally convinced we can own all of this at $5 per rich person (that's $5 billion), free to the 5 billion poor, and put this out in a chapter in 2008, but have never found the right group to work with.

Call to Arms: Fund We Not Them

I sincerely hope all of you make progress soon.

Poor Richard

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Apr 16, 2011, 4:08:08 PM4/16/11
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On Saturday, April 16, 2011 1:47:43 PM UTC-5, Robert wrote:
I have gotten more out of this list's active contributors than any other list I have browsed that I can remember.  Thank you.

Where I think we are headed is toward a world brain and global game, which is where 24 of of us including Medard Gabel, the co-creator
with Buckminster Fuller of the analog World Game, have been focused since 2006.  It boils down to facts, things, minds, and opinions.

Reference: World Brain Institute & Global Game

I only read the 2-page overview, but it reminds me of a premise I thought of for combining my "General Utility 2.0" framework for modelling the major algorithms of the biosphere and human culture with 3D massively multiplayer online role-playing game (MMORPG) simulations into a "save the world" game.

There are two others whose work I would mention, the first for his interest in Open Hypertextdocument System (linking at paragraph level), and the second for Internet Economy Meta-Language.

Both sound interesting.

PR

Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 4:27:46 PM4/16/11
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I tried to get the MMORPG guys out of Iceland to take an interest, but they are happy right where they are.

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 16, 2011, 5:04:30 PM4/16/11
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why not just make a facebook app?

290 million people a month play games on facebook... some estimate
it's the equivalent of about 927 million hours of gameplay a month.

as of july, purchase of any virtual good on facebook will have to be
done via facebook credits. (facebook takes a 30% cut. brilliant.)

more than 200 million people access facebook from their mobile device.

so you make a quasi-social facebook game that you play in the real
world via your mobile device, but what the game is is performing
microwork tasks that get rewarded via facebook credits. (like....
instead of picking vegetables in farmville, you pick vegetables at a
local farm or CSA.)

so casual gamers get to get paid in credits so they can keep playing
their games, and also are saving the world while they do it.

virtual economy, ftw!

Poor Richard

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Apr 16, 2011, 5:41:57 PM4/16/11
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On Saturday, April 16, 2011 4:04:30 PM UTC-5, Venessa Miemis wrote:

so you make a quasi-social facebook game that you play in the real
world via your mobile device, but what the game is is performing
microwork tasks that get rewarded via facebook credits. (like....
instead of picking vegetables in farmville, you pick vegetables at a
local farm or CSA.)

so casual gamers get to get paid in credits so they can keep playing
their games, and also are saving the world while they do it.

I'm a little unclear how you pick vegetables at a local farm or CSA using a mobile device....can iphones do that now, too?

PR

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 16, 2011, 5:53:39 PM4/16/11
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> I'm a little unclear how you pick vegetables at a local farm or CSA using a
> mobile device....can iphones do that now, too?


lol. no, you actually do it with your physical body. but you find
opportunities for games/points/rewards/credits via your mobile device.

try a search for "mobile augmented reality"

i believe it's what they're calling "gamification" of the real world

basically using game dynamics to incentivize actual work.

just you wait and see......

om Design

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:22:01 PM4/16/11
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Blizzard is about to release their new system and I'm going through a friend to suggest to their CEO that we could use the 'old' technology to develop a worldometer that is fed by handheld phones via SMS.

Poor Richard

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:30:38 PM4/16/11
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OK I get it. .. "gamification" of the real world. Eeu.

Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:44:56 PM4/16/11
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MORE PLEASE.  This is of very high interest to me.  UNICEF has done some incredibly good things in a narrow range (kid arm circumference at age of 12 is superb health indicator, fills a back office database).  What works for me is a digraph or trigraph panel that folks can call in.  I really like with the Crisis Mappers are doing, below is a link after three SMS links.

Worth a Look: UNICEF RapidSMS

Review: SMS Uprising: Mobile Activism in Africa

Worth a Look: GeoChat (SMS Plotted on Map)

Ushandi Moves Forward with Crisis Mapping Check-In

Crisis Mapping Libya: This Is No Haiti…

Live Crisis Mapping: Routing Around Old Mindsets

Reference: Crisis Mapping

Medard Gabel, whom I consider the top thinker in this area, has been working on a world dashboard concept, but his model is necessarily defined by the UN which is a horrible kludge of special interests and nowhere near a strategic analytic model such as neededat the top level (to UN credit, the high level panel on threats, challenge, and change nailed the key part: ten threats in priority order).

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:48:59 PM4/16/11
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On Apr 16, 6:30 pm, Poor Richard <poor.rica...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK I get it. .. "gamification" of the real world. Eeu.

oh, come on. did you know that 3 billion hours A WEEK are spent
playing online games?

yes, that's 3 BILLION hours.

i'd say there's a hell of an impetus to inject meaningful
worldchanging activity with a bit of fun, play, creativity, and
adventure.

i happen to see the world as an epic adventure, but many people
don't.

why not make positive change into a game that we want to win?

Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:54:56 PM4/16/11
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Here are four pieces.  We never got to anyone with real money, after my for profit crashed I had to stop subsidizing the non-profit.
My dream would be to create the World Brain Institute at Stanford alongside their Liberation Technology outfit, with endowment from Sir Richard Branson whom I would love to see fund a global commercial company, "The Virgin Truth," while funding Range Networks toward OpenBTS for the three billion poor.  I lack the access to anyone anywhere to actually think seriously about this.  It would pay for itself within three years and thereafter begin cutting waste and corruption by 20% a year (wag).

Medard Gabel is the ONLY person now living that actually created a World Game (as co-creator with Buckminster Fuller).

Journal: Brains Beat Algorithms….Again

Reference: The Revolution IS Being Tweeted

Graphics: Twitter as an Intelligence Tool

Jane McGonigal has great instincts, but has been up-marketed to the point of not connecting to people like Medard who could mentor her own genius by providing all the stuff she does not know (I hope it is clear I am equally admiring of both of them, they just won't connect to each other, someone has to bring them together and I  can no longer fund that kind of overture).

Who’s Who in Collective Intelligence: Jane McGonigal

URGENT EVOKE: The End of Old Government

Review: Reality Is Broken–Why Games Make Us Better and How They Can Change the World

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 16, 2011, 6:59:32 PM4/16/11
to building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com, Robert Steele
On Sat, Apr 16, 2011 at 6:44 PM, Robert Steele <robert.david...@gmail.com> wrote:
MORE PLEASE.  This is of very high interest to me.  UNICEF has done some incredibly good things in a narrow range (kid arm circumference at age of 12 is superb health indicator, fills a back office database).  What works for me is a digraph or trigraph panel that folks can call in.  I really like with the Crisis Mappers are doing, below is a link after three SMS links.

right, well.. you've already listed Ushahidi, which is open source and first created for crisis mapping, but can be used for any kind of visualization and interactive mapping.  i've had a lot of thoughts on how this could be used for soooo many things, just using your mobile device to send text, images, and video to map onto locations. 


here's another cool tool i found and got implemented into our city - SeeClickFix, where you can alert the local government about issues in the neighborhood.. anything from potholes and graffiti to creepy people/vehicles lurking in neighborhoods.


i think i've mentioned to you before Groundcrew, which enables collective action at the ground level around tasks that need to be accomplished.


then there's platforms like Foursquare, which allow you to earn badges and become "mayor" of a location just for checking in there enough times. now advertisers offer discounts if you check in, and better incentives if you're mayor. there's really no functional purpose to this yet, but you can imagine if you combined check-ins with purpose driven missions with financial incentives and a way to update your status and notify your friends about the cool stuff you're doing...... well......




Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 7:07:34 PM4/16/11
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Correct--what Clay Sharkey calls Cognitive Surplus, Yochai Benckler the Wealth of Networks.

What is NOT happening is the collection of "true cost" information, the loading of shareable databases across 183 languages,
and the development of participatory FACT-BASED decision-making at all levels on all issues.

For what the US Intelligence Community spends guarding non-secrets, I could have this going within the year.

Devin Balkind

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Apr 16, 2011, 8:17:56 PM4/16/11
to building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com, Robert Steele
A conversation about this topic was created two weeks ago on the contact summit google group under the title 'gamifying the gift economy': https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/contactsummit/4w3LWqO_B78

Our team is connecting rural and urban communities in the New York area through a game with the following ingredients: (1) farm, (2) coworking space, (3) biodiesel transportation.  We're also beginning to collect information about the products and services used by local businesses and figure out how our network can create these items within the context of play.  There are no technical hurdles, just a lot of community outreach, organizing and enthusiasm building that needs to be done.

I think we should all be making workshops that can contribute to the Global Village Construction Set, connecting coworking spaces with farms and building relationships with local businesses so they feel conformable sharing information about the products and services that they use on a regular basis so that we can start replacing them with 'in-network' alternatives.

In addition to a health 20% tip, I also give FLOfarm points.  People think it's cute.  It'll become more than cute when local businesses start taking these points because they can spend them on locally produced products and services.  As the network builds, I have no doubt we'll be able to build a mobile/online game using a completely open source software stack that makes interacting with the network fun and easy. 

I presented  'Launch a Regional Trading Network from your Coworking Space' at the Coworking Unconference and the space owners were digging it.  It's very simple.  I'll have an updated version next week which I'll share with the group.
--
Devin Balkind
@devinbalkind
vitamindwb.com

Robert Steele

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Apr 16, 2011, 8:53:52 PM4/16/11
to Devin Balkind, building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com
Devin,

I like your content, social, gaming levels.

I believe we need two kind of content as quickly as possible into shared public databases that cannot be attacked and corrupted (which leaves Wikipedia out of the picture):

1)  True Cost Information on every product and service

Graphic: True Cost of a Cotton T-Shirt

Data-Hacking the Cotton T-Shirt: True Cost (water,energy,travel,emissions,toxins,import costs,child labor,fertilizer)

2)  Needs information at every level from individual to aggregate nation, based on participatory INFORMED dialog.

Here are two charts I created to try to visualize the second.   The cart for the first was created by JZ, the ExDir for Earth Intelligence Network, and first used at Hackers on Planet Earth 2010.

Graphic: Global Range of Nano-Needs

Graphic: Participatory Budget Outreach

I believe that placing true cost before the public will move markets (e.g. kill Nestle and Coca-Cola) and that placing the second before the one billion rich will create an infinite number of hybrids from one to one to many to one to one to many that actually address needs rather than overhead, the common corruption of the Red Cross and almost all others (I respect the Without Borders elements).

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 18, 2011, 2:59:17 PM4/18/11
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On Apr 16, 7:07 pm, Robert Steele
<robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Correct--what Clay Sharkey calls Cognitive Surplus, Yochai Benckler the
> Wealth of Networks.
>
> What is NOT happening is the collection of "true cost" information, the
> loading of shareable databases across 183 languages,
> and the development of participatory FACT-BASED decision-making at all
> levels on all issues.

how do you propose building a true cost database?

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:17:10 PM4/18/11
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On Apr 16, 8:53 pm, Robert Steele
<robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Graphic: Global Range of
> Nano-Needs<http://www.phibetaiota.net/2011/04/2010/09/2008/08/graphic-global-ran...>

like this? - http://giftflow.org/

Robert Steele

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:20:36 PM4/18/11
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sort of.  needs to be in 183 languages, and organized by need and location.  here is a graphic

om Design

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:22:05 PM4/18/11
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Games are really hip. But they are mostly played by people sitting,
using idle time.
There are many functions of a game and employing fun interactivity is
great sounding...

Most of the people I would try to address are in basic need of water,
food, shelter and security from harm.

Examining these realities and working toward solutions doesn't need a
game interface IMO but there is a lot to be gained from the simplicity
that they present.
Sometimes things are serious and require serious effort. We have a lot
of levels of need and response, but it has been frustrating to watch a
wide population of humanitarian projects become 'gamefied' because it
is the cool thing to do. This is the 'top down' hubris seen with so
many Agencies.
WorldGame is different, conceptually, as it was an exercise to
brainstorm and shift thought-reality. Play really is excellent for
doing that.
On the ground however, the marginalized hungry or threatened person
needs a rapid response.
I reckon 'bottom-lateral-then-up' thinking would be easier to build
for and do more good.

Groundcrew is unique in that it has a trust mechanism built in that
uncovers positive actors based upon participation and feedback.
Ushahidi won't scale but has a lot going for it.
Frontline SMS is another example of really effective platform being
used to great effect.. mostly in the medical sector.

Samuel Rose

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:36:22 PM4/18/11
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:22 PM, om Design <om....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Games are really hip. But they are mostly played by people sitting,
> using idle time.
> There are many functions of a game and employing fun interactivity is
> great sounding...
>

I tend to agree here. Games are great, but are one tool within a
spectrum There's also datamining, complex systems models, and actually
digging in and carefully working with people on the ground.


> Most of the people I would try to address are in basic need of water,
> food, shelter and security from harm.
>

Where are you doing this work currently?

> Examining these realities and working toward solutions doesn't need a
> game interface IMO but there is a lot to be gained from the simplicity
> that they present.

Sometimes complex systems models can be an alternative (coupled with
researching existing data from history).

> Sometimes things are serious and require serious effort. We have a lot
> of levels of need and response, but it has been frustrating to watch a
> wide population of humanitarian projects become 'gamefied' because it
> is the cool thing to do. This is the 'top down' hubris seen with so
> many Agencies.
> WorldGame is different, conceptually, as it was an exercise to
> brainstorm and shift thought-reality. Play really is excellent for
> doing that.
> On the ground however, the marginalized hungry or threatened person
> needs a rapid response.
> I reckon 'bottom-lateral-then-up' thinking would be easier to build
> for and do more good.
>

Yes, this seems to call for a whole different approach. Basically,
looking where there is need, and getting commitment of resources, and
coordinating the delivery of those resources. I have worked in the
past on projects that were getting cell phone minutes to people in
Africa who would otherwise be robbed if cash was wired to them by
relatives, for instance.


> Groundcrew is unique in that it has a trust mechanism built in that
> uncovers positive actors based upon participation and feedback.
> Ushahidi won't scale but has a lot going for it.
> Frontline SMS is another example of really effective platform being
> used to great effect.. mostly in the medical sector.

--
--
Sam Rose
Future Forward Institute and Forward Foundation
Tel:+1(517) 639-1552
Cel: +1-(517)-974-6451
skype: samuelrose
email: samue...@gmail.com
http://futureforwardinstitute.com
http://forwardfound.org
http://hollymeadcapital.com
http://p2pfoundation.net
http://socialmediaclassroom.com

"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human
ambition." - Carl Sagan

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 18, 2011, 3:55:31 PM4/18/11
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 3:20 PM, Robert Steele <robert.david...@gmail.com> wrote:
sort of.  needs to be in 183 languages, and organized by need and location.  here is a graphic

yeah, i've seen the graphic. i don't think it's very effective in communicating information.

effective visual communication is more than just groups of words with lines between them. it's a bit of an art.

what is it you're trying to say in the graphic?

can you walk me through a use case / scenario? 

Poor Richard

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:05:08 PM4/18/11
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I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
thread.

Venessa & Robert

Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
should) is a free department.

PR

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:28:57 PM4/18/11
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On Apr 18, 4:05 pm, Poor Richard <poor_rich...@att.net> wrote:
> I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
> thread.
>
> Venessa & Robert
>
> Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
> suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
> cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
> trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
> surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
> meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
> thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
> should) is a free department.

yes, we have thrift stores here too - goodwill and salvation army and
the like. and i've used craigslist and freecycle to get/give things.

some people want value back for their surplus though. those are called
consignment shops.

either way, both require a third party for the transaction, and
require a physical location, and overhead costs to run the place and
pay personnel.

a p2p mobile network would take out that middleman.

Poor Richard

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:35:42 PM4/18/11
to building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com, Devin Balkind
Accounting for true cost is essentially about including "externalities". I agree that it is essential for economic justice, sustainability, and sanity. An FTC, FCC, IRS, Dept of Commerce, etc. that really operated in the public interest would force companies to make some effort at true cost disclosure in their accounting and reporting requirements.

When it can take a fairly expensive research project to discover the true cost of a single product, compelling all companies to "disclose" may be the only solution.

Unfortunately, the only party who wants to know true cost is the hyper-responsible citizen. Most ordinary consumers don't want to know.

PR

Venessa Miemis

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:50:21 PM4/18/11
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On Apr 18, 3:17 pm, Venessa Miemis <venessamie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 8:53 pm, Robert Steele
>
> <robert.david.steele.vi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Graphic: Global Range of
> > Nano-Needs<http://www.phibetaiota.net/2011/04/2010/09/2008/08/graphic-global-ran...>

robert,

what do you know about WiserEarth / Natural Capital Institute? "the
social network for sustainability"

http://www.naturalcapital.org/wiserearth.htm

sounds like they have a massive database of organizations/projects/
scope of activities. seems that network would/should have an effective
way of sharing knowledge and resources and getting things done, no?

Robert Steele

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:51:42 PM4/18/11
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yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what  they tried to do, but it never took off as an enabler that I know of.  They are featured in the collective intelligence book I published.

Samuel Rose

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:53:49 PM4/18/11
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On Mon, Apr 18, 2011 at 4:28 PM, Venessa Miemis <veness...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On Apr 18, 4:05 pm, Poor Richard <poor_rich...@att.net> wrote:
>> I'm trying a reply via email so I applogize if this goes to the wrong
>> thread.
>>
>> Venessa & Robert
>>
>> Craigs list, Free Cycle, and all micro needs-surpluses matching efforts
>> suffer to some degree from the problem I have with them: the effort and
>> cost of posting/searching listings and then making phone calls and car
>> trips for minor things. In my opinion, better to drop off all ones'
>> surplus and fill multiple needs in one stop without having to coordinate
>> meetings or conversations with other people -- around here we call it a
>> thrift store. The only thing our local thrift stores don't have (but
>> should) is a free department.
>


Seems like the posting of listings of things is at least a requirement
in order to create any kind of database. What could make that easier?

Kaliya Hamlin

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:58:45 PM4/18/11
to building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com
On Apr 18, 2011, at 4:51 PM, Robert Steele wrote:

yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what  they tried to do,

They didn't listen to the advice we (Planetwork) gave them about distributed digital identity and people's empowerment along with giving organizations tools to connect to people with these kinds of "digital identity tools".

they also overbuilt their directory of organizaitons. 

they should have populated it with 1000 groups and then opened it up. Instead it was "done" when they opened it with 300,000 groups in it. Why edit that?

Groups had no ability to organize their members on the platform either.  (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.) 

-Kaliya

Kaliya Hamlin -  Identity Woman 
Executive Director, Personal Data Ecosystem Consortium - http://www.personaldataecosystem.org
Leader,  Internet Identity Workshop  http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com

Identity Woman Blog - http://www.identitywoman.net

Twitter - @identitywoman
Skype - Identitywoman
Phone - 510 472-9069

IM Handles (best way to "talk" to me)
AIM/IChat:  kal...@mac.com



Poor Richard

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Apr 18, 2011, 4:57:44 PM4/18/11
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A mobile network may take out the middle man for people who are on the phone and on the go all the time anyway, but it wouldn't help me at all. My point was that a third party and physical location actually serve my need and can be resource-efficient by aggregating multiple surplus-depositing and need-filling transactions. If a thrift store handled both donations and consignments, and had a free department, by covering all those bases they would be even more likely to help people save time and transportation costs. Where I see the digital element coming in is if the store put a digital snapshot with a few keywords online as items are received. I'm just highly skeptical of recovering my time, communication, and transportation costs in an individual person-to-person physical transaction for a single item unless its worth over $50. Something is not free if I have to spend two hours and drive 25 miles to get it. And I don't particularly relish "meeting" strangers that way, either.

Just sayin.

PR

Poor Richard

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Apr 18, 2011, 6:02:17 PM4/18/11
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Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing.

I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011 but blog activity is low and there is no update on site development since Jan 2011. Maybe the groups are more active. I haven't looked into that yet.

It seems like we could fold some of what we are talking about here into their database, especially info about Next Net people, organizations, issues, and events. I doubt that their database would handle much more of our needs without extending their data dictionary, table structures, and GUI considerably. It might be interesting to propose something to them if we had a better description/specification of what we wanted.

I only got as far as defining the first three fields in our fantasy database so far. I'm behind on the discussion so I don't know if there were any replies.

PR

Poor Richard

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Apr 19, 2011, 12:00:47 AM4/19/11
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On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
> (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed
> network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM
> (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)

Kaliya,

Although the distributed p2p YaCy search engine can do a pretty good job
of search (with many independent crawlers working 24/7, and only a
compressed index residing on each node), a large database application is
very difficult to do in a p2p fashion with fully independent peers. It
is difficult to get good database performance on a pc-class server at
all. Concurrency control (record locking, etc.) and forcing integrity
over a network would be a nightmare, not to mention the amount of
storage each node would need to mirror the database and indexes. At the
very least, I would think the nodes would have to be dedicated servers
with high-speed internet connections, and there might need to be one or
more "master nodes" for resolving integrity issues.

If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.

PR

Jon Lebkowsky

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Apr 19, 2011, 12:07:48 AM4/19/11
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Like Kaliya, I talked to the Wiser Earth folks (via my role at Worldchanging). They weren't engaging users, weren't sure why, but weren't open to advice. I had the sense that they weren't very collaborative - though this is from brief conversations some time ago.

~ Jon
--
Jon Lebkowsky (@jonl)
Internet Expert and Strategist
Honcho, Polycot Associates, LLC

Kaliya

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Apr 19, 2011, 12:11:06 AM4/19/11
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On Apr 18, 2011, at 6:02 PM, Poor Richard <poor.r...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing.

I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011


A joke.

How many people are members of enviro and social change groups around world - millions!

Charles N Wyble

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Apr 19, 2011, 12:24:46 AM4/19/11
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On 4/18/2011 11:00 PM, Poor Richard wrote:
> On 4/18/2011 3:58 PM, Kaliya Hamlin wrote:
>> (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a distributed
>> network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs that do VRM
>> (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)
> Kaliya,
>
>
> If I'm wrong, and these problems have been solved, I hope to be corrected.

Couchdb. NoSQL movement. MUMPS/Vista.


Poor Richard

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Apr 19, 2011, 12:55:44 AM4/19/11
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Wikipedia: "CouchDB was designed with bi-direction replication (or synchronization) and off-line operation in mind. That means multiple replicas can have their own copies of the same data, modify it, and then sync those changes at a later time. The biggest gotcha typically associated with this level of flexibility is conflicts."

Just what I said. It can work at some scale. But as data volume, number of nodes, and volume of distributed commits increase, it goes haywire. Even though that's exactly what it is designed for, it will hit the wall pretty quick. Like I also said, its hard enough to run a big database (I mean the data and transaction volume, not the engine) on a pc at all, much less keep it in sync with 10,000 or 100,000 other copies in homes and offices around the world.

I have found no significant solutions to the basic problem of scalable integrity of distributed stores in any NoSQL description. Stores can be distributed over server farms, yes, but with relatively high stability of connections, configurations, and node availability.

PR

Wibowo Sulistio

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Apr 19, 2011, 1:21:06 AM4/19/11
to building-a-distributed...@googlegroups.com, sures...@gmail.com, robert.david...@gmail.com, Jon Lebkowsky, Kaliya, poor_r...@att.net, ProM, Wibowo Sulistio
Hi everyone,

This is Bowo from WiserEarth. Jumping in after Suresh forwarded me
this thread :-)

First of all, I need to do more reading on the topic of this thread:
"world brain and global game"... and I haven't read through this whole
thread. So, will just respond to some points related to WiserEarth for
now.


>> Robert said: "yes, I know Paul Hawkin and Peggy Duvette, and admire what they tried to do, but it never took off as an enabler that I know of. They are featured


in the collective intelligence book I published. "

Fair enough. But you know... working for WiserEarth, I prefer to say
"it hasn't took off yet"... we're taking a hard look at why it
hasn't... http://www.wiserearth.org/article/WiserEarth_Goals_2011
...and it'll be wonderful to get some more feedback.


>> Kaliya said: "They didn't listen to the advice we (Planetwork) gave them about


distributed digital identity and people's empowerment along with
giving organizations tools to connect to people with these kinds of
"digital identity tools"."

We're not there yet. Sounds like a good idea though. Need to do some
more reading on that.


>> Kaliya said: they also overbuilt their directory of organizaitons... they should have populated it with 1000 groups and then opened it up. Instead it was "done" when they opened it with 300,000 groups in it. Why edit that?

Well... we make mistakes. I guess it's sort of a chicken and egg
kind-of-thing... and we decided to go with the egg. Probably not the
best kind of decision, but FYI, the directory is still growing by the
day... albeit slowly. We also do annual directory update campaign, and
organization representatives (some of them) are coming back to update
their listing.


>> Kaliya said: Groups had no ability to organize their members on the platform
either. (it shouldn't be a platform either :) - it should be a


distributed network of tools for people and matching ones for orgs
that do VRM (vendor relationship management) and CRM in a mutual way.)

Not sure what you meant by "no ability to organize their members"...
here's an overview of the current groupware:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/wiserearthgroups
VRM and CRM sounds like a whole different ball game though :-)


>> Poor Richard said: "I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011 but blog activity is low and there is no update on site development since Jan 2011. Maybe the groups are more active. I haven't looked into that yet. "

Tech development is ongoing. Have a look at the latest at
http://www.wiserearth.org/group/WEtech In the coming month, we'll have
status update and newsfeed a la facebook... brewed with some
WE-specific features. v1 of it is already live on the site.


>> Poor Richard said: "...It might be interesting to propose


something to them if we had a better description/specification of what we
wanted. "

Talk to me some more on that. Not sure we have the technical capacity
to handle it anytime soon though... email me at bo...@wiserearth.org
... meanwhile, we do have an API that you can use (read only, write at
request): http://www.wiserearth.org/group/API


>> Jon Lebkowsky said: "Like Kaliya, I talked to the Wiser Earth folks (via my role at


Worldchanging). They weren't engaging users, weren't sure why, but weren't
open to advice. I had the sense that they weren't very collaborative -
though this is from brief conversations some time ago. "

Not sure who you talked to in WiserEarth, on what, and when... good to
know nevertheless... :-) ... and do clarify here if you want.


>> Kaliya said in response to : " Wiserearth looks like it overlaps with social networking and database methodology we are discussing. I signed up. They passed 50k members in March 2011" --> "A joke... How many people are members of enviro and social change groups around world - millions! "

Fair enough :-)
We're not planning to stop at 50k though... :-)

We've secured funding to keep the platform alive for the next 5 years:
http://blog.wiserearth.org/fundraising-reflections/
... and hope to secure another 5 years of funding at the end of this year.

More on our plans this year:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/WiserEarth_Goals_2011


Hope that clarifies things a bit.
Feel free to shoot additional question here or directly at bo...@wiserearth.org

Thanks for listening :-)

Bowo
Online Community Manager at WiserEarth.org
http://www.wiserearth.org/user/bowo
bo...@wiserearth.org

More about WiserEarth:
http://www.wiserearth.org/article/about

Poor Richard

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Apr 19, 2011, 1:41:43 AM4/19/11
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