Sleep training/co-sleeping/night weaning - help!

[Chwee Sze Foong]

Hi everyone,

Am writing this hovering over Max's cot hoping he'll stay asleep and
at the ready to pop his dummy back in if it falls out.

So my dilemma is, Max is 3 months old, is breastfed, and he eats every
2 hours, day and night. We co-sleep at night, and I used to be able to
get him to nap in a bouncy chair/cot. But this week it's become
exceedingly difficult to get him to stay asleep without being next
to/held by a warm body. We walk and rock him to sleep, which is easy
enough. But almost as soon as we lay him down, he's up again. Rinse
and repeat ad infinitum.

Any advice? Would it be better to quit co-sleeping so as not to
complicate things? Would I then have to wean him off night feeds, or
cut back to 1-2? He's 7 kilos, so weight gain hasn't been a problem.

Am going a little nuts because this basically means that if I want the
baby to sleep, I have to as well. Fine for one nap a day and at night,
but not for the other 4 naps during the day!

What has your experience been?

Much thanks,
Sze

P/S: Ironically, he has stayed asleep in the cot in the time I've
taken to write this e-mail... fingers crossed!

[Sonya Chandler]

I think the best advice is: to trust your own instincts, AND to remember
that babies, toddlers, kids - all go through weird stages / phases - and our
response is to react and DO something / change something - but maybe that is
where the trouble begins? Kids often go through sleep changes when
something else is changing - like getting a new skill, passing a
milestone...so think about what might be going on for him... Just because
this week it has been hard to get him to sleep doesn't mean you have to make
big changes - you could just roll with it and see where it goes. He might
just flip back next week without any changes - if you can stand it for that
long. It also depends on your parenting philosophy - those that follow the
attachment parenting model would say that the best thing you can do is keep
him next to you and that this will produce confidence and in turn a good
sleeper... But there are also other opinions out there...

Tough call - and advice is always easer to give then to follow! I remember
being there and how frustrating it was - you are lucky yours takes a dummy,
mine only took my nipple or my baby finger...very restrictive!

Good luck!

Sonya (from Canada and new to the list)

[Lucie Rust]

Hi,

Our Jimmy is now 3.5 months and was always good at falling asleep with a little help in his crib. However, this changed close to his 3rd month birthday. He feeds a lot (10 to 14 times a day) and gets about 9-10 hours of interrupted sleep at night and naps during the day only in pram (for half an hour) or co-sleeping with me. And the only way I can get him to nap longer than 30mins is nursing him back to sleep. He's only breastfed and I am too lost for advice. Because even if we co-sleep during the day, he is still about 2-4 hours short on the total sleep he should be getting. The only way he seems to be able to fall asleep is on my breast (going from being read a book, sang a lullaby and falling asleep on his own)

So if anyone has any suggestion, I would love to hear it.

Sent from my iPhone

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[Natalie Turner]

We had a similar problem with my son Dylan, when all else failed I used to put
him to sleep in the sling and get things done in the house when he was sleeping.
I wouldn't recommend stopping the night feeds as he is still so young he needs
them still. Also what helped for us was white noise, we discovered the hoover
helped him to sleep and to stay asleep. It cut the noise from our flat, we
downloaded hoover noise from the internet and still use it now.

Hope some of this helps as Sonya said it may just be a small faze and he may be
back to normal next week, I used to get very stressed about how much Dylan sleep
in the day and then I learned to relax and just think he'll sleep when he
sleeps.

Nat xx

Good luck!

[Marley Hood]

We went through this as well at 3 months; I understood that they go through a growth spurt at this time (and milk production reduces temporarily). I was feeding every hour for a while. It lasted about 2 weeks, I think. My LO never took a soother either, so needs my help to fall and stay asleep. And she has always slept for only 30 mins at a time during the day, 3 or 4 times. Tough to get anything done! Best, Marley --- On Fri, 3/4/11, Chwee Sze Foong <chwe...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Helena Grisogono]

As per our experience, babies go through changes with 3 weeks, 6 weeks, 3 months and 6 months. They sleeps less and eat more frequently. I would say you just need to monitor it for a while and make sure to exclude some other reason of this change. I wouldn't also consider to stop night feedings.

I would  recommend a book "non-cry sleep solution" for those who can't do "cry it out" It is full of useful tips. The success is in consistency of applying  them which I have problem with. I get too tired at night.

Actually, I was about to send out an email with the same topic, looking for some warm advice.

My daughter will turn 12 months in 2 weeks and still facing the same issue.

She is waking up 4-5 times a night. I am still breastfeeding. My major concern is putting her to sleep. I carry her in a baby carrier and when she is asleep I put her down. She is a big baby now and I would like to teach her how to go to sleep on her own and I don't know how. We are co-sleeping and I love attachment parenting style and I just can't leave her to cry. She cries very loudly and disturbing.
She is one of those high need babies (fussy babies) and those standard advices haven't worked for us.

I understand that If they learn how to get a sleep on their own they will less wake up at night. I would like to keep on co-sleeping just don't know how to help her soothe to sleep? If I lay down with her she is up and runs all over the bed and it takes couple of hours to get tired and then starts to cry and I end up carrying again. She doesn't listen me telling stories yet, so I didn't find any calming method. We used white noise too (hair dryer) and still do sometimes but I think it's time to get rid of it as she is getting older??

Does anybody have a similar experience with an older baby?

Thank you.

Helena

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[julia....@gmail.com]

Hey moms! 

My son is definitely a high need baby. He is also an extremely active little boy. We had a lot of issues with him until he turned 5-6 months old, after that my routine started to kick in. 

I have chosen what was good for me so besides at when he was 1 month old I never rocked and carried him around, only when he cried hysterically or in pain from colic. 

Our day time naps are pretty easy- surprisingly. I always put him down for a nap outside in our garden in a baby stroller, he falls asleep in it in 2-5 mins and sleeps for 2-3 hours. When it gets below 10C I let him sleep inside but open the window. Luckily ig gets him to sleep well and he's only had a snotty nose once this winter. It started from 1 hour per nap and got better and better. In the beginning I had to stay near him and sing, then I just read nearby and now I just stand there until his eyelids get heavy. He is 14 months old now so that's his only nap. 

In the evening we just repeat the same ritual every night. He has a long bath, then we get dressed in our pjs together, I pull down the blinds with him saying bye bye to everything we see like daddy, his toys and we go to our bedroom together. He just lays on my lap while I read news on my laptop in our bed while a soft music is playing in the background - classical music for sleep is our favorite or Diana Krall will do as well. We quietly sit together in the dark and he goes to sleep quite soon. I then put him onto our bed leave the music playing and shut the door. That way we can have an evening w/o him waking up to the noise of our household. He sleeps with us in the same bed but we love it. He wakes up once a night, and would just crawl to me and say "dai" loudly which is Russian for "give." So I do give him the breast after which he drops dead back to sleep without a sound. He sleeps around 12 hours at night. I did not sleep train him, however when he was 4 months old he protested against going to bed and used to cry at least 10/20 minutes. So I decided that our bedtime will always be 8pm not sooner and not later and that we will have a ritual- so he knows it's bed time. At times he would start to cry already while I was shutting the blinds- but I am the adult here so with time he subdued. Now I actually love putting him to sleep as it's my time to read the Financial Times in peace and quiet. So my technique is fresh air, cosleeping and a bedtime ritual. 

Julia

[Nóra doula]

When I look back on our first year, I realise, that my baby (breastfead on demand for almost 4 years) was quite a sensitive baby. He was disturbed by bodily issues, especially teething and digestion, but also seasonal light changes affected his sleep.
He had cholic, then very early teething, so the 3-months-old-cholicky-cry slowly changed to 3-months-old-teething cry... poor guy. His naps were very short (like 15-30min) when I was not very close to breastfeed as soon as he gave any signs of waking up, or did carry him around, preferably not sitting.....
Also when we started solids, his digestion was affected, and it took at least until the 10th month to get used to eating stuff... so that his aching bowel movements did not wake up the whole family at about 4-5AM.
He was also difficult to get asleep in the summer, when light is signalising playtime. :) And woke up hours earlier than during the winter.
He stopped night feedings/wakeups as soon as ALL his teeth finished their growing job, meaning 2y3m.

I was VERY much in need of additional naps from age of approx. 8m to 1,5 y, constantly feeling a bit like a zombie.... especially b/c my family did not really support me in getting more sleeptime. :(( so I suggest, if you intend to align to your baby's needs (since he is not doing things to irritate you by intention! he really needs you!), ensure that your needs will be met too! Anyway, I realised that you CAN get used to less sleep, it just takes months (or a year)... b/c the 2nd year (though a bit better due to less nightfeedings) was a LOT easier than the 1st one, with practically the same amount of sleep.

So I don't know what YOUR baby is like, this is our story, and my lessons learnt.
If I'd have a baby Nr2 sometime, I'd keep breastfeeding according to his needs, whatever it takes - but I'd organise REGULAR help to bring him for a walk of 2-3hrs away a few times a week and use that sweet time to SLEEP myself.

Hope you had a better night tonight!

Nora

[Chwee Sze Foong]

Thanks for all the replies. Last night I swaddled him and stretched the feedings out a bit to try and break the sleep association with nursing; will continue to do this to get down to 1-2 feedings a night.

Sonya - re phrases and milestones - it's hard to marry what I read out there about 'when your baby should do what' and reconcile that with Max. I try to bear in mind that he was a month premature, so may take longer for some things. At the same time he's quite a big baby, so at times I'm really at a loss about what to expect.

Lucie - have you tried swaddling? I did it consistently last night as well as for this morning's naps and it's kept him asleep since it prevents the startling from waking him up. As for getting him to learn to fall asleep by himself - I'm equally at a loss, since swaddling him while he's awake just gets him worked up to get out of the swaddle!

Natalie - after I read your post I remembered I had a sling and I put him in it, after which he slept contentedly against me. Doesn't help with the sleeping by himself but certainly gave me more freedom and him a longer sleep! Thanks for the hoover tip, will check it out.

Marley - re growth spurts - I feel like Max is on a constant growth spurt!

Helena - thanks for the recommendation of the No-Cry Sleep Solution. I've heard it's full of charts and tables - not sure I have the energy at night to keep that up either!

Julia - sounds like you have a great routine set up. Would be great to have a garden to try out the nap in the outdoors! How long was the transition period from setting up the routine and him accepting it?

Nora - totally agreed on looking after yourself sleep-wise. I try and take at least one nap a day with Max, if not two. Though what I've found is that it's harder for me to fall asleep these days. Guess it comes with the territory!

Another question re bedtime - anyone's baby goes to bed between 10pm-midnight? The earliest I've ever got him to sleep is 9pm.

[Elissa Helms]

our baby went to bed regularly at midnight until he was 8 months old.
(and I went to bed with him) we moved him to 10pm, taking advantage of
the time change when we went to the US (8-9 months) and then to 8pm at
10mo. when he started going to daycare (bolsci). And we also swaddled
until almost 8 months when he was getting out of it easily. So good
that you're swaddling - that's what I was going to suggest. Oh, and we
also had a month or so of him only sleeping when he was on our laps,
in our arms, etc. (during the day - at night he was fine in his
swaddle between us in the bed but not necessarily touching). At about
2 1/2 months something changed and he started sleeping longer at night
and then my mother in law worked to get him used to sleeping in the
stroller during the day. that saved us. and he was also a BIG baby
very early. Might be similar.... but each baby is its own challenge.
good luck!

Elissa

[Deidre McMullin]

We also had a period when Szonja would only sleep for short periods - like 30 minutes or 45  minutes. I started lying next to her during her naps, reading or something and then when I saw her start stirring I put a hand on her chest, or nursed her back to sleep. After awhile she just started sleeping longer. Most of the first year she needed her first nap around 2 hours after waking up in the morning. She switched to one nap a day at around 15 months. Also at some point it became harder to get her to go to sleep - it was often a sort of power struggle to get her to lie down next to me and not crawl off the bed or whatever. There were often tears, but I sort of had to force her a little to lie still. She is 18 months now and is sort of learning to go to sleep by herself. I still nurse her to sleep generally but now more often she will roll away from me and about 5 minutes later drift off. This seem to be matched with less waking up at night.

I have the book the No cry sleep solution somewhere, I would be happy to lend it. Though maybe the best critique of that book is that I am now on the look out for the no-cry toddler sleep solution. I guess the first one wasn't as helpful as it could have been :-) And by the way, it isn't a really "charty" book - it just suggests that you keep a sleep journal to try and figure out solutions. i think the best advice in that book (that I didn't take but should have) is to encourage your child to have some sort of "lovey" that they associate with sleep, so that your nipple doesn't become the only thing they want as they fall asleep. Though I suppose having something like that could also lead to frustrations...

Oh, and we have also started doing sleep routines similar to what Julia was talking about. It seemed to help within one or two days actually. There isn't the struggle when there is a long routine leading up to sleeping.

Finally, I think that when Szonja was the same age as Max her sleep time was also between 9 and 10. she goes to sleep now around 8.

> Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2011 12:17:17 +0100
> Subject: Re: [budapestmoms] Re: Sleep training/co-sleeping/night weaning - help!
> From: eliss...@gmail.com
> To: budape...@googlegroups.com

[meimei]

Um, I don't know if this helps, since our baby stopped feeding on demand after around 2-3 months.

Anyway, about night sleep. 

Around 4-5 months- Lucas started to drop his night feeding, but he still whimpered and moved in the night.  I was worried he would wake up my husband so I would get up and go to his room.  I would talk to him or pat him back to sleep.  But this continued so I was getting up a lot.  And many times he wasn't even awake, just moving about and whimpering.  Then when he was about 7 months old, I got really sick with a flu, so my hubby took over the night shift.  In 4 days he trained the kid to sleep through the night- basically by doing nothing.  He would talk to him through the bedroom wall, and only went to him if he was REALLY crying.  Since then we have had a lot of peace and good rest for everyone in the family.  In hindsight, I should have fallen ill sooner! :)))

Hope this helps :)

Btw, Lucas never roomed with us.  Only the first 2 weeks or so I think.

:)
Meimei

[meimei]

p.s. My cousin lent me the Gina Ford book, which is strict as hell and I'm sure a lot of moms here wouldn't approve of it.  However, interestingly, Lucas fell into her suggested routine even though we followed it at best by 50%.

[Meagan Nicholas]

Sze

Your question raised and all the responses have been very timely for me since my 3.5 month old has also been troublesome with his feeding and sleeping the last few weeks.....so there is some comfort knowing that others have had similar experiences, and learning some tips :-)

After weeks of frustration my son seems abit more settled this week and I think this has happened because I am now actively trying to give him some structure to his day, especially the feeds since he was snacking all the time before and this led to shorter sleep cycles. So now I try to feed him every 3 hours (if possible), and after a feed I play with him and make sure he is not awake for more than 2 hours as this over tires him. We still have alot of work to do on getting him to sleep on his own without rocking or cuddling him to sleep etc but we have a musical mobile over his cot now which seems to help relax him. (although bedtime needs to be earlier since it's around 10 -11pm)

I hope you manage to get some rest soon. I think being a mum us the hardest job, but also very rewarding.

Meagan
-

Sent from my iPhone

[Réka Morvay]

Great suggestions from everyone :) I hope you find something among them to help you get through this period!

One thing I feel I ought to point out is that there is a strong relationship between having enough milk and nursing on demand (even during the night). Babies regulate the amount of milk you have by varying the frequency of their feeding. If you are not allowing him to nurse on demand, it will probably affect your supply.

If you want to nurse your baby for a good long time (1 year and beyond), it is best to nurse on demand, and try to get yourself some help who can take the baby off your hands so that you can get some rest.

If nursing exclusively for 6 months isn't a high priority as compared to having a schedule and sleeping through the night, then scheduling is more appropriate. But if exclusive breastfeeding for 6 months is a high priority, then I would very much suggest developing a routine that is independent of his feeding. Just as you wouldn't think to schedule your day around his nappy changes, but instead change them when appropriate, thinking of nursing in the same light might help.

Babies are really flexible and they will adapt to most any system and schedule you work out - especially if you are willing to let them cry during the learning process. This is why they are capable of thriving in such completely different environments as being set on the Gina Ford schedule versus being carried all day and nursed on demand.

The trick is finding the balance that works for YOUR family and understanding the cause-and-effects of your decisions.

Good luck!

Réka
.

http://www.rekamorvay.com/
http://www.eletkor.hu/
http://www.budapest-moms.com/

[Deidre McMullin]

nice response Reka! Can we print this out on a card and hand it around to new moms? :-)

---

Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 08:09:54 +0100

Subject: Re: [budapestmoms] Re: Sleep training/co-sleeping/night weaning - help!

From: rekam...@gmail.com
To: budape...@googlegroups.com

[in...@motherandchildclinic.com]

Hi Moms,

Yes, I think sleep deprivation is one of the biggest challenge in
motherhoood. Jessica is 4.5 YRS old (not months...) and I hardly have a
full night uninterrupted sleep still...there is always something, a little
cough, a bad dream, etc:)
The favourite golden rule I heard is 'sleep when your baby sleeps'
especially while you breastfeed. The problems come for mums whose babies
only sleep for 20-30mins at times, that can be even more challenging.
What saved my sanity in the past years is yoga and especially yoga nidra
(deep relaxation), where for about 20 mins you listen to a guided
meditation: you can fall asleep or even better to stay conscious in an
alpha state, apparently the relaxation you get equals to 3-4 hour deep
sleep!!! I can confirm that:)
In New Zealand me and my yogi friend developed a yoga nidra CD for
pregnancy and for motherhood, I am putting an order through end of this
month if anyone is interested I would be more than happy to order you some
too:) Personally I think every mum should have one...

As per night feeds, etc, totally agree with Reka, I see so many mums
trying to bottle feed at night or cutting back the night feeds and their
milk supply goes down. Then they bottle feed even more and the supply goes
more and more...
Breasfeeding and waking up during the night is sooooo difficult but I am
so happy I breastfed Jessica till she stopped by herself (luckily it was
when she was 1.5yr...:)

I wish everyone all the very best!
Lots of love,
Monika

Monika Vadai
Mother and Child
+36-30-317-0818
www.motherandchildclinic.com
www.anyagyermek.hu

>
> nice response Reka! Can we print this out on a card and hand it around to
> new moms? :-)
>

> R�ka

Vadai M�nika
Mother and Child
+36-30-317-0818
www.motherandchildclinic.com
www.anyagyermek.hu

[Amy Horkay]

Hi Monika,
I'd be interested in purchasing the Yoga Nidra CD.
Amy

> Réka

Vadai Mónika

Mother and Child
+36-30-317-0818
www.motherandchildclinic.com
www.anyagyermek.hu

[julia....@gmail.com]

Hello, I just read the question addressed to me. The sleeping routine for the evenings started to work well after about a month. I had one week of hysterical crying as soon as I pulled down the blinds, but eventually he accepted that. I would say it took us a long time compared to what books promise you (don't you just love the titles- like 3-5 day sleep solutions, yeah right!). That's the reason why you should just do what is comfortable for you and not disruptive for your baby's state of mind- I can pull off reading articles on my laptop, but probably not watching videos on it while I am putting him to bed. That way you don't end up hating your routine or feeling anxious to get through with it. The daytime naps were harder to manage as when I put him to bed inside, he would wake up too soon- in 30 mins, 1 hour at its best. So I decided to follow the Russian practice which goes for fresh air and started to put him to sleep outside in his stroller. It came in handy because it started getting cold outside so I could train him  resistance to cold he really needs in winter. Our previous apartment was on 3rd floor so he slept on the balcony. We only have a garden for about a month now. 

 

As for him waking up at night time I do not create an issue out of it. We love sleeping with our delicious baby boy. It's the most intimate special experience no one else can share with him but his parents- kind of like me breastfeeding him. My husband used to make a big deal out of it listening to his family and friends- until Matveyka started cuddling up to him at night, gently patting him with his soft little hands and giving him kisses. He now fights for him more than I do :)

Sent from my iPhone

[Deidre McMullin]

Hi all! Sorry but I have to cancel the mama baby group again today. :-( See you all next week!
Deidre

---

From: half_a_...@hotmail.com
To: budape...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [budapestmoms] Re: Sleep training/co-sleeping/night weaning - help!
Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2011 00:15:17 -0700