Becoming a podling!
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Duncan Johnston Watt
Nov 29, 2013, 6:54:13 AM11/29/13
to brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev
I recently posed a question about what tool to use to capture salient aspects of new features but stepping back one way of creating a framework for Brooklyn that is very attractive IMO would be for us to become a podling IE an Apache Incubator project [1].
Overall I think the Apache Software Foundation is the right home for Brooklyn as it now is for jclouds and Whirr.
Interesting to note that jclouds has graduated already although I'd anticipate Brooklyn remaining a podling for longer as it builds its community.
A cool side effect of this is that it would provide us with a framework/structure without us having to do this ourselves.
WDYT?
[1] http://incubator.apache.org/projects/
Duncan Johnston-Watt
Best
-- Duncan Johnston-Watt
CEO | Cloudsoft Corporation
Twitter | @duncanjw
Mobile | +44 777 190 2653
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Richard Downer
Dec 2, 2013, 1:17:32 PM12/2/13
to brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev
Duncan, all,
This is something I've been looking at recently. There's a wealth of material on the Apache Incubator website. I'm also a regular reader of the jclouds lists, and have watched as they entered the incubator, progressed, and recently graduated as a top level project.
There's two, obvious, main steps to joining Apache - (1) join the incubator; (2) graduate from it.
Joining the incubator requires a sponsor[1] (probably the Incubator Project Management Committee - IPMC - unless we want to be a subproject of something else), a champion[2] (somebody who knows their way around the Apache way and can guide us - I'm unclear if this has to be someone external to the project or if it can be someone who is already part of our ranks) and a proposal[3] (a document which explains about the project wanting to join - this is what the vote-to-join is based on.)
Graduating has more requirements on it[4]. The jclouds podling status page[5] provides a useful guide here. Some are legal boilerplate such as ensuring the copyrights and trademarks are assigned and cleared and CLAs are signed; some are around infrastructure such as ensuring that the project materials (code, website, mailing lists) are transferred to Apache systems. There also has to be at least one release made in the Apache way (even if it's not a public release). However the big-ticket items are these ones:
- Have all of the active long-term volunteers been identified and acknowledged as committers on the project?
- Are there three or more independent committers? (The legal definition of independent is long and boring, but basically it means that there is no binding relationship between the individuals, such as a shared employer, that is capable of overriding their free will as individuals, directly or indirectly.)
- Are project decisions being made in public by the committers?
- Are the decision-making guidelines published and agreed to by all of the committers?
It's also not a quick process to graduate. jclouds was a well-established project that had a big and diverse community behind it, and it still took 6 months[5] to graduate, and required a not insignificant effort to get there.
The above is mostly filled with facts and little opinion. But to answer Duncan's question - "WDYT?"...
The requirements to graduate are a great indicator of a healthy open source project, so we should adopt these as goals of our community, and work towards them regardless of whether we enter the Apache Incubator or take a different course (such as joining another open source umbrella organisation, or "declaring independence").
My *opinion* is that we should propose to join the incubator *once* we're at a stage where we're on a clear path to reaching the graduation goals. That way we can aim to clear the incubation process with little fuss, or uncertainty about our future.
I also think that we should begin working on our incubator proposal[3] as soon as possible. The proposal guide poses many questions about our community and our direction. Like the graduation goals, working on this proposal could provide benefit to our community in terms of clarifying our direction and goals, and could be useful whether we decide to apply for the incubator, or take a different path.
TL;DR - let's act like we are already on the path to joining the incubator AND graduating - but don't take the actual step until we have taken several steps along our path to the graduation goals. The process will be valuable to our community, whether or not we do approach Apache.
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duncanjw
Dec 10, 2013, 4:55:07 PM12/10/13
to brookl...@googlegroups.com, brookly...@googlegroups.com, Chip Childers
Hi Richard
I don't buy the argument that we should wait until (almost) all the graduation boxes are ticked before entering the incubator stage as that defeats the purpose of the incubator. There is no need to rush the incubation phase.
IMO the sooner we start this process the better particularly as there are conversations that look as though they are likely to result in substantial contributions from other folk so let's create the right long term environment for these so that there is absolutely no doubt that brooklyn is destined to remain open source and not controlled by a single company.
In terms of a sponsor I was going to propose we approach Chip Childers (copied) who is one of the leading lights in the Cloudstack community and who is now at Cumulogic.
Best
Duncan
Chip Childers
Dec 11, 2013, 11:03:21 AM12/11/13
to duncanjw, brookl...@googlegroups.com, brookly...@googlegroups.com
Hi all,
I'm actually replying from my apache.org email address, which is the
right one to use for this conversation.
Duncan (and all), I'd be more than willing to be the champion of
a potential Brooklyn entry into the ASF's Incubator.
In reading the thread below, I have a suggestion to make: Don't try to
"prepare" ahead of the incubation process. It's best to be honest about
the current state of diversity and the code, and work through the
process of incubation from where you are. The proposal template
describes a number of "risks" that need to be shared with the Incubator,
but these are primarily so that the mentors that sign up know where
things stand.
Regarding the "time" aspect, I'll point to both jclouds and CloudStack.
jclouds was pretty fast, at 6 months to graduate. CloudStack was about
a year, which was actually fairly fast as well (given size). Other projects
take much longer, but that's OK. It all depends on the community that
grows around the podling, especially their willingness to learn the ASF
"ways" and to push forward through the more difficult work.
So, if you are interested, I would suggest the following:
1) Create a draft of the proposal. I can then float that proposal on
the gen...@incubator.apache.org list to get (1) feedback and (2)
attract mentors to the project. I would also highly suggest that those
members of the Brooklyn community that want to participate in the
acceptance discussions join that mailing list (email
general-...@incubator.apache.org).
2) You need to decide if you want to openly accept committers during the
proposal process or not. Some projects open up the doors to anyone who
wants to be involved, not worrying about any demonstration of merit.
Other projects choose to enter the incubator with an established
committer-base and work to demonstrate growth and diversity during the
process of incubating.
3) Another decision that's critical is deciding how you want to seed the
PPMC (podling project management committee). Some projects approach the
difference between committers and (P)PMC members as something worth
keeping distinct, while others collapse the two roles into one decision
(let a person have both commit rights AND be a member of the (P)PMC).
4) A direct question for the CloudSoft folks (Duncan) needs to be
answered before proposing: do you intend to donate the Brooklyn word
mark to the ASF as well as the code? If so, that's an easy process. If
not, this community needs to be prepared to rename itself.
I'm more than willing to continue discussions with you, and to help you
understand the implications of any decisions you need to make during the
process of being proposed. Please CC this email address on any relevant
threads where you would like support.
-chip
> > - Have all of the active long-term volunteers been identified and
> > - Are the decision-making guidelines published and agreed to by all of
> >> email to brooklyn-user...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
I'm actually replying from my apache.org email address, which is the
right one to use for this conversation.
Duncan (and all), I'd be more than willing to be the champion of
a potential Brooklyn entry into the ASF's Incubator.
In reading the thread below, I have a suggestion to make: Don't try to
"prepare" ahead of the incubation process. It's best to be honest about
the current state of diversity and the code, and work through the
process of incubation from where you are. The proposal template
describes a number of "risks" that need to be shared with the Incubator,
but these are primarily so that the mentors that sign up know where
things stand.
Regarding the "time" aspect, I'll point to both jclouds and CloudStack.
jclouds was pretty fast, at 6 months to graduate. CloudStack was about
a year, which was actually fairly fast as well (given size). Other projects
take much longer, but that's OK. It all depends on the community that
grows around the podling, especially their willingness to learn the ASF
"ways" and to push forward through the more difficult work.
So, if you are interested, I would suggest the following:
1) Create a draft of the proposal. I can then float that proposal on
the gen...@incubator.apache.org list to get (1) feedback and (2)
attract mentors to the project. I would also highly suggest that those
members of the Brooklyn community that want to participate in the
acceptance discussions join that mailing list (email
general-...@incubator.apache.org).
2) You need to decide if you want to openly accept committers during the
proposal process or not. Some projects open up the doors to anyone who
wants to be involved, not worrying about any demonstration of merit.
Other projects choose to enter the incubator with an established
committer-base and work to demonstrate growth and diversity during the
process of incubating.
3) Another decision that's critical is deciding how you want to seed the
PPMC (podling project management committee). Some projects approach the
difference between committers and (P)PMC members as something worth
keeping distinct, while others collapse the two roles into one decision
(let a person have both commit rights AND be a member of the (P)PMC).
4) A direct question for the CloudSoft folks (Duncan) needs to be
answered before proposing: do you intend to donate the Brooklyn word
mark to the ASF as well as the code? If so, that's an easy process. If
not, this community needs to be prepared to rename itself.
I'm more than willing to continue discussions with you, and to help you
understand the implications of any decisions you need to make during the
process of being proposed. Please CC this email address on any relevant
threads where you would like support.
-chip
> > acknowledged as committers on the project?
> > - Are there three or more independent committers? (The legal
> > definition of independent is long and boring, but basically it means that
> > there is no binding relationship between the individuals, such as a shared
> > employer, that is capable of overriding their free will as individuals,
> > directly or indirectly.)
> > - Are project decisions being made in public by the committers?
> > there is no binding relationship between the individuals, such as a shared
> > employer, that is capable of overriding their free will as individuals,
> > directly or indirectly.)
> > - Are the decision-making guidelines published and agreed to by all of
Richard Downer
Dec 18, 2013, 10:26:46 AM12/18/13
to brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev, Chip Childers
Thanks Chip. Taking on your comments (and Duncan's) it seems clear that we should begin work on our incubator proposal as soon as possible!
I'll take a first look at this, and then post it somewhere where it can be reviewed and commented on to make our draft proposal.
And thank you Chip for your offer to champion Brooklyn in the Incubator :-)
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to brooklyn-user...@googlegroups.com.
Alex Heneveld
Dec 18, 2013, 12:11:59 PM12/18/13
to brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev, Chip Childers
+1 -- thanks Chip & thanks Richard !
--A
On 18/12/2013 15:26, Richard Downer wrote:
Thanks Chip. Taking on your comments (and Duncan's) it seems clear that we should begin work on our incubator proposal as soon as possible!
I'll take a first look at this, and then post it somewhere where it can be reviewed and commented on to make our draft proposal.
And thank you Chip for your offer to champion Brooklyn in the Incubator :-)
On 11 December 2013 16:03, Chip Childers <chipch...@apache.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I'm actually replying from my apache.org email address, which is the
right one to use for this conversation.
Duncan (and all), I'd be more than willing to be the champion of
a potential Brooklyn entry into the ASF's Incubator.
In reading the thread below, I have a suggestion to make: Don't try to
"prepare" ahead of the incubation process. �It's best to be honest about
the current state of diversity and the code, and work through the
process of incubation from where you are. �The proposal template
describes a number of "risks" that need to be shared with the Incubator,
but these are primarily so that the mentors that sign up know where
things stand.
Regarding the "time" aspect, I'll point to both jclouds and CloudStack.
jclouds was pretty fast, at 6 months to graduate. �CloudStack was about
a year, which was actually fairly fast as well (given size). �Other projects
take much longer, but that's OK. �It all depends on the community that
grows around the podling, especially their willingness to learn the ASF
"ways" and to push forward through the more difficult work.
So, if you are interested, I would suggest the following:
1) Create a draft of the proposal. �I can then float that proposal on
the gen...@incubator.apache.org list to get (1) feedback and (2)
attract mentors to the project. �I would also highly suggest that those
members of the Brooklyn community that want to participate in the
acceptance discussions join that mailing list (email
general-...@incubator.apache.org).
2) You need to decide if you want to openly accept committers during the
proposal process or not. Some projects open up the doors to anyone who
wants to be involved, not worrying about any demonstration of merit.
Other projects choose to enter the incubator with an established
committer-base and work to demonstrate growth and diversity during the
process of incubating.
3) Another decision that's critical is deciding how you want to seed the
PPMC (podling project management committee). �Some projects approach the
difference between committers and (P)PMC members as something worth
keeping distinct, while others collapse the two roles into one decision
(let a person have both commit rights AND be a member of the (P)PMC).
4) A direct question for the CloudSoft folks (Duncan) needs to be
answered before proposing: do you intend to donate the Brooklyn word
mark to the ASF as well as the code? �If so, that's an easy process. �If
not, this community needs to be prepared to rename itself.
I'm more than willing to continue discussions with you, and to help you
understand the implications of any decisions you need to make during the
process of being proposed. �Please CC this email address on any relevant
> > � �- Have all of the active long-term volunteers been identified and
> > � �acknowledged as committers on the project?> > � �- Are there three or more independent committers? (The legal
> > � �definition of independent is long and boring, but basically it means that> > � �- Are project decisions being made in public by the committers?
> > � �there is no binding relationship between the individuals, such as a shared
> > � �employer, that is capable of overriding their free will as individuals,
> > � �directly or indirectly.)
> > � �- Are the decision-making guidelines published and agreed to by all of
> > � �the committers?
> >> �Mobile | +44 777 190 2653
> >> Skype | duncan_johnstonwatt
> >> Linkedin | www.linkedin.com/in/duncanjohnstonwatt
> >>
> >> Cloudsoft Corporation Limited, Registered in Scotland No: SC349230.
> >> �Registered Office: 13 Dryden Place, Edinburgh, EH9 1RP
> >>
> >> This e-mail message is confidential and for use by the addressee only. If
> >> the message is received by anyone other than the addressee, please return
> >> the message to the sender by replying to it and then delete the message
> >> from your computer. Internet e-mails are not necessarily secure. Cloudsoft
> >> Corporation Limited does not accept responsibility for changes made to this
> >> message after it was sent.
> >>
> >> Whilst all reasonable care has been taken to avoid the transmission of
> >> viruses, it is the responsibility of the recipient to ensure that the
> >> onward transmission, opening or use of this message and any attachments
> >> will not adversely affect its systems or data. No responsibility is
> >> accepted by Cloudsoft Corporation Limited in this regard and the recipient
> >> should carry out such virus and other checks as it considers appropriate.
> >>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "brooklyn-users" group.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> >> email to brooklyn-user...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.
> > Richard Downer � Principal Engineer � Cloudsoft Corporation �
> > http://www.cloudsoftcorp.com
> > GitHub richardcloudsoft � Twitter @FrontierTown
> >
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Chip Childers
Dec 18, 2013, 1:43:48 PM12/18/13
to Richard Downer, brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev
On Wed, Dec 18, 2013 at 03:26:46PM +0000, Richard Downer wrote:
> Thanks Chip. Taking on your comments (and Duncan's) it seems clear that we
> should begin work on our incubator proposal as soon as possible!
>
> I'll take a first look at this, and then post it somewhere where it can be
> reviewed and commented on to make our draft proposal.
>
Excellent! We'll have to move it into the incubator's wiki where there
> Thanks Chip. Taking on your comments (and Duncan's) it seems clear that we
> should begin work on our incubator proposal as soon as possible!
>
> I'll take a first look at this, and then post it somewhere where it can be
> reviewed and commented on to make our draft proposal.
>
will be more edits during the process of being accepted, but anywhere
else will work for now.
> And thank you Chip for your offer to champion Brooklyn in the Incubator :-)
Duncan Johnston Watt
Dec 19, 2013, 12:18:47 PM12/19/13
to brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev, Chip Childers
+1
Chip Childers
Jan 29, 2014, 6:13:08 PM1/29/14
to Richard Downer, brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev
Hi Richard (all),
Just following up on this to see if there has been any progress, and
if you want any help reviewing a draft proposal.
-chip
>> > > Richard Downer * Principal Engineer * Cloudsoft Corporation *
>> > > http://www.cloudsoftcorp.com
>> > > GitHub richardcloudsoft * Twitter @FrontierTown
> http://www.cloudsoftcorp.com
> GitHub richardcloudsoft * Twitter @FrontierTown
Just following up on this to see if there has been any progress, and
if you want any help reviewing a draft proposal.
-chip
>> > > http://www.cloudsoftcorp.com
>> > > GitHub richardcloudsoft * Twitter @FrontierTown
>> > >
>>
>> --
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>
>
>
>
> --
> Richard Downer * Principal Engineer * Cloudsoft Corporation *
>>
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>
>
>
>
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> http://www.cloudsoftcorp.com
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Richard Downer
Jan 30, 2014, 6:49:35 AM1/30/14
to Chip Childers, brookly...@googlegroups.com, brooklyn-dev
Thanks Chip. I had a burst of activity writing an outline proposal, but have tailed off a bit recently. However I think the outline proposal is ready to be shared within our community, and as a group we can finish it off. I'll post a new link to it in a moment.
Thanks
Richard
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