Puck is stuck

[Nelius]

Hello,
Since a week I am owner of a brand new BrewtusII. I pull amazing shots
and the machines seems to work ok. However, I have one problem: the
puck cannot be knocked out of the portafilter even if I use quite some
power to get it in my knock box. I can only remove the puck by using a
spoon. I tried a backflush with water, but this did not help.

Who has an idea what is going on here? I am not sure there are any
differences, but I bought the machine in Europe.

Nelius

[Andrey Akselrod]

How long are you waiting after the shot before trying to remove the pack?
What happens if you try to remove it right away?
-a

[Nelius]

I do remove it right away. It is usually quite dry.

Nelius

[Barry Luterman]

Then you are probably using too much pressure when you tamp.

[jwor...@alaska.net]

What size filter do you use?

How many grams of beans do you use?

What is the maximum pressure your pump can achieve (the pressure gauge on
the right side of the "dashboard") when you are doing a blind flush? (When
you attach a portafilter that has been obstructed by either a rubber stopper
in the bottom or a steel nonperforated bottom, and turn on the pump)

How do you tamp the coffee in the filter basket?

What is the usual pressure on the same gauge when you are "pulling" a shot?

How many seconds (from the time you raise the handle to turn on the pump)
does it take to make how many ccs of espresso?

What you describe, it seems to me, has got to be a feature of the coffee
you are using, the amount, the grind, the tamp, or the pressure.

I have never been able to achieve CONSISTENCY which is an important feature
of being a good barista. I find that with my best pours, the puck comes out
nice and clean as it should. Most of the time the puck comes out, but leaves
a some grounds in the basket, and I have to wash out the basket under the
tap water. But I always can get the puck out with one tap.

Allen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrey Akselrod" <and...@runtime.com>
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 11:17 AM
Subject: Re: Puck is stuck

>

[Nelius]

Thanks for all suggestions. I discovered that it occurs in particular
with the one cup portafilter. Possibly, I used too much coffee. I will
check this out. The brewing pressure is chosen in the factory. It is
about 12 bar as indicated on the gauge. Do you feel this is too high?

[Allen Worrall]

My brewing pressure also is ~ 12 bar. When I use a blind portafilter my
maximum pressure is 14 bar. and I get a 60 cc pour in about 25 seconds from
the time I raise the lever. I measure 14 grams of beans for each pour and
use the double basket.

I have suspected that the pressure gauges on these machines might not be
very accurate. The other day someone mentioned that their brewing pressure
is 9 bar. If I reduced my amount of coffee, or made my grind coarse enough
to brew at 9 bar, I think I would have 60 cc in 5 or 10 seconds.

It is a constant challenge. Each pour is a new adventure. One of the things
I have noticed, and cannot explain, is that my best pours leave almost no
grounds on the wire mesh, leave the surface of the puck smooth and without
pits, and, as I mentioned, the puck knocks out clean. The majority of my
pours leave grounds on the wire mesh, leave the surface of the puck
corrugated and pitted, and when I knock out the puck, there are lots of
grounds left along the periphery of the basket. Can anyone tell me what
mistakes I am making?

Allen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nelius" <c.j.h....@tm.tue.nl>
To: "Brewtus" <bre...@googlegroups.com>

[Ben McCafferty]

The pressure is supposed to be 8.5 to 9 bar. 12 to 14 is too high.
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[Allen Worrall]

Yes, I am beginning to realize that. Thanks.

[John Brinkman]

I currently run 12 Bar brew pressure, I did drop it down to 9 Bar but
found that the espresso's went bitter (I went courser on the grind to
maintain a 20-25sec extraction). Nothing I could do solved the problem
so I went back to 12bar and a finer grind and everything was back to
awesome.

I was using an Ethiopian Sidamo roasted to just after the 2nd crack so
I am not sure if that had something to do with it.

Needs some more experimentation!

JohnB

[Ben McCafferty]

Hmmmm, interesting. I have always thought that pressure was not a variable
to be played with, i.e. it was to be set and left alone based on the design
of the machine?

As someone mentioned previously, the blank shot should show the max
pressure, and nothing you do with grind can take the pressure higher than
that.

Did you mess with temperature on your Sidamo when you had the pressure set
lower, or just grind?

I know WLL monitor this list, perhaps they will chime in on whether pressure
is best left alone or is another variable. Just what we need, a fifth
variable to mess with... :)

take care,

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[Allen Worrall]

One of the things that this recent thread has made me realize is that the
maximum pressure during a back flush or blank shot reflects the setting of
the pressure release valve, as adjusted by that screw-head seen through the
hole that was taped over when we received the machine from WLL, with a label
that said this adjustment should only be made by a technician.

I too took this instruction to heart and did not remove the tape until
yesterday, when I tried to adjust my brew pressure downward, but found that
I could only reduce the pressure by 1 bar. I seem to have the screw turned
counter clockwise as far as it will go.

Allen

Fairbanks, Alaska, USA

[lockjaw]

Are you using the small single shot basket?

IF you ARE, you are asking for difficulty. It is extremely difficult
to achieve any decent quality with that dinky basket.

dave

[Chris Bailey]

I'm completing about my first week with a new Brewtus II. I've read
most of Schomer's book, and he says they only use the double basket as
well, but hadn't said too much about that, other than getting more
consistency. In a cafe that seems a non-issue, but for home use, I'm
wondering what people suggest when I want to just have a "single"
shot, but get the best results? Do I need to just pull with a double
basket, and then throw away what I don't want, or?

--
Chris Bailey
chris....@gmail.com

[Ren Finley]

I just drink restretto doubles all the time from a double basket. I use the single basket as a cap for my Mazzer Mini grinder.

"Luigi follow only the Ferrari"
-Luigi, Cars

[Chris Bailey]

So, I take it you are grinding, packing, tamping, etc. in a way that
you have a double basket full, but are producing maybe a 1-1.5oz
shot/double ristretto? I'm still learning how to control all the
variables to a) produce a great espresso, and b) control volume
without compromising the quality.

--
Chris Bailey
chris....@gmail.com

[John Brinkman]

Not only are singles a whole load more difficult to pull a decent shot
from (if at all possible) but you will have to reset your grinder
every time you switch from the double basket to the single. Finer
grind for the single basket, if you don't do this you will end up with
a +-10 second shot which you will have to throw down the sink. By the
time you have set up your grinder for the single basket you will have
thrown away more coffee than you would have used just pulling a shot
in the double basket in the first place.

Not really worth all the hassle in my opinion unless you plan on
having 2 grinders.

JohnB

On 9/19/07, Ren Finley <ren.f...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Ren Finley]

Correct,

I think it took me about a year to really get it right consistently. As a beginner the real focus should be on dose, distribution and tamp. For me this was the area that most unpredictable.

I dose until I have a small mound that completely fills the PF. I tap the PF exactly twice to settle the grounds after the 2nd or 3rd pull on the doser, and again (once) during the last pull on the doser. (seems a little anal to write, but it is now a habit)

I level the PF using the lid from my doser - held at a ~20degree angle so I get a slightly concave surface while sweeping the excess grounds back into the doser. I learned this at the roaster (where they claim the extra grounds promote edge sealing). I used to level with the straight edge of a coffee scoop, when combined with the tapping during the dose, this left too much coffee in the PF -- the PF is hard to install and the grounds were pushed into the shower screen. I used the "dime test" to confirm that there is a small gap between the shower screen and the puck after a shot.

Then I tamp once hard, tap the PF lightly with the tamper to knock the grounds around the edge loose and polish with a Right-Left-Right twist. I brush off any grounds on the lip of the PF with my palm and put the PF in the machine and bull for ~30 sec total (includes pre-Infusion). The result is a thick, gloopy syrup that is centered below the PF and yields ~1.5 oz in 30. Mmmmm.

Ren

--
Ren Finley :: ren.f...@gmail.com
-------------------------------------------------------

[Chris Bailey]

Thanks guys! I will switch to the double basket :) Yesterday I
pulled quite good shots 3 times, and that was a really big deal - best
shots since I've had my machine, and shots that made me want to go
pull another after drinking them! But, today I was back to not so
good, so looking forward to switching to double basket.

I agree, I found I had to definitely go more fine on the grind for the
single basket.

I have found that the key, at least so far for me, is how I pack the
PF initially. I've been following the Schomer way, where I grind into
the PF (I have a doserless Macap), then I use my finger to scrape
North, then South, then East, then West, leaving a consistent
distribution, and a somewhat concave set of grounds. From my
diligence with this yesterday, this seems to be super important. I
then tamp as Schomer says as well, which seems pretty similar for
everyone (tamp, tap PF, tamp again, and polish).

The "dime test" is not one I knew of, but I suspect this is exactly
what I was looking for in terms of a much easier way to detect the
proper height of the tamped grounds in the PF, so that it doesn't
touch the screen, etc. Schomer's book talks about wanting 3mm there
(which would I think be more than a dime thickness, but whatever).
But, I didn't feel I had a good way of detecting when I had an actual
significant say 3mm of distance, vs. the coffee just ever so slightly
clearing the screen (I guess on some commercial or other machines, the
screen has a pin protruding down, and you can use that to tell if it
hits the grounds in your PF).

Ok, I'm off to try some...

--
Chris Bailey
chris....@gmail.com

[John Brinkman]

Have you got a Bottomless portafilter?

I found that mine has helped a lot with diagnosing the cause of my bad
shots (usually bad leveling).

I had some lessons and was shown that it is very important to keep
your forearm at right angles to the portafilter when tamping i.e.
straight up. I am quite tall and was standing quite close to the
counter Casing my forearm to be angled slightly towards my body and
not perfectly vertical. This was resulting in my tamping harder on
back side of the portafilter than the front and the extraction tending
to come through the front of the basket rather than the back.
Something to watch out for

JohnB

[Chris Bailey]

Tell me about the bottomless PF, I don't know about those.

--
Chris Bailey
chris....@gmail.com

[Barry Luterman]

As important as a naked filter is the tamper used. Thor Tampers
www.thortamper.com has a new line of tamper called the Ridgeline. This new
tamper takes all the guess work out of leveling and tamping.For the Brewtus
a 58 mm tamper is required

[Ren Finley]

A naked or bottomless PF is a must have for the beginner -- I look at my extraction with every shot.

Examples here: http://espressoporn.blogspot.com/

Nearly every coffee supply place carries them.

[Ben McCafferty]

Ren’s post brings up an interesting point, one that I’ve wondered about for a while.  I have been in the habit of weighing each shot, i.e. 15g of beans into the grinder, 15g of grind into the PF.  Since I home roast, I see the difference roast color makes in the volume of grind.  If I roast a little darker, it takes more beans to equal 15g, so the grind might allow me to level off the PF.  If I roast a little lighter, 15g might fall well short of the top of the PF when level, due to the higher residual moisture in the beans.

What Ren is suggesting below would result in a larger quantity of coffee in the PF (by weight) in a light roast than in a dark roast—so I’m interested in hearing from those of you in both camps (by weight, by volume) on why your technique produces a superior shot.

tx,

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: Ren Finley <ren.f...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 12:25:18 -0600
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Puck is stuck

[Ren Finley]

Interesting question. I weighed regularly when first I got my B2. I used the Schomer technique but found my finger is not very straight and produced really inconsistent results. I found it difficult to dose and level consistently unless the PF was completely full (overweight). I just couldn't level the PF without a little packing one area or another which caused some channeling.

Since I knew the weight was in the ballpark, I changed to volume based dosing. I think that consistancy is more important than accuracy (given my unpredictable finger).

That said, I am really interested in learning to roast

Ren

On 9/19/07, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net> wrote:

Ren's post brings up an interesting point, one that I've wondered about for a while.  I have been in the habit of weighing each shot, i.e. 15g of beans into the grinder, 15g of grind into the PF.  Since I home roast, I see the difference roast color makes in the volume of grind.  If I roast a little darker, it takes more beans to equal 15g, so the grind might allow me to level off the PF.  If I roast a little lighter, 15g might fall well short of the top of the PF when level, due to the higher residual moisture in the beans.

What Ren is suggesting below would result in a larger quantity of coffee in the PF (by weight) in a light roast than in a dark roast—so I'm interested in hearing from those of you in both camps (by weight, by volume) on why your technique produces a superior shot.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

 

[Barry Luterman]

Best web site for learning to roast is www.sweetmaria.com

----- Original Message -----

From: Ren Finley

To: bre...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 9:23 AM

Subject: Re: Weight or volume, was: Re: Puck is stuck

Interesting question. I weighed regularly when first I got my B2. I used the Schomer technique but found my finger is not very straight and produced really inconsistent results. I found it difficult to dose and level consistently unless the PF was completely full (overweight). I just couldn't level the PF without a little packing one area or another which caused some channeling.

Since I knew the weight was in the ballpark, I changed to volume based dosing. I think that consistancy is more important than accuracy (given my unpredictable finger).

That said, I am really interested in learning to roast

Ren

On 9/19/07, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net> wrote:

Ren's post brings up an interesting point, one that I've wondered about for a while.  I have been in the habit of weighing each shot, i.e. 15g of beans into the grinder, 15g of grind into the PF.  Since I home roast, I see the difference roast color makes in the volume of grind.  If I roast a little darker, it takes more beans to equal 15g, so the grind might allow me to level off the PF.  If I roast a little lighter, 15g might fall well short of the top of the PF when level, due to the higher residual moisture in the beans.

What Ren is suggesting below would result in a larger quantity of coffee in the PF (by weight) in a light roast than in a dark roast--so I'm interested in hearing from those of you in both camps (by weight, by volume) on why your technique produces a superior shot.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[John Brinkman]

Or you can just cut the bottom of the standard Brewtus one <grin>

I also found I got less channeling when I switched to a slightly domed tamper.

[Ben McCafferty]

I hear you there.  Though I get great shots overall, they do vary from one to the next, due to a pinhole here, a loose spot there, etc.  When the basket is close to full, I can use the ball under my index finger to make a circular motion and spread the love (well, grind) around.  On the lighter roasts, it really is amazing how much less grind goes into the PF.  I can see where, if you use the same roast all the time, the volume method would be a lot faster and easier.  I am changing things up every few days for now, and use weight as a starting point for each new roast/blend.

I heartily second Barry’s recommendation for Sweet Maria’s.  They are no-nonsense when it comes to business, but have a ton of pages on roasting and will steer you away from their own products if they don’t think they fit your needs.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

---

From: Ren Finley <ren.f...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 13:23:22 -0600
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: Weight or volume, was: Re: Puck is stuck

Interesting question. I weighed regularly when first I got my B2. I used the Schomer technique but found my finger is not very straight and produced really inconsistent results. I found it difficult to dose and level consistently unless the PF was completely full (overweight). I just couldn't level the PF without a little packing one area or another which caused some channeling.

Since I knew the weight was in the ballpark, I changed to volume based dosing. I think that consistancy is more important than accuracy (given my unpredictable finger).

That said, I am really interested in learning to roast

Ren

On 9/19/07, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net> wrote:

Ren's post brings up an interesting point, one that I've wondered about for a while.  I have been in the habit of weighing each shot, i.e. 15g of beans into the grinder, 15g of grind into the PF.  Since I home roast, I see the difference roast color makes in the volume of grind.  If I roast a little darker, it takes more beans to equal 15g, so the grind might allow me to level off the PF.  If I roast a little lighter, 15g might fall well short of the top of the PF when level, due to the higher residual moisture in the beans.

What Ren is suggesting below would result in a larger quantity of coffee in the PF (by weight) in a light roast than in a dark roast--so I'm interested in hearing from those of you in both camps (by weight, by volume) on why your technique produces a superior shot.

tx,
bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[Ben McCafferty]

Oh yeah, Chris' Coffee has a very nicely made bottomless, the Rancilio fits
the BII. I use it every day; never have used my original BII double spout
yet. It is a great tool--coffee emerges from one side first every time?
Tamping at an angle. No crema, or snowflake pattern? Old beans. Coffee
comes out on the edges first (donut shot)? Tamped on a "pile" in the
center--center is too tight, edges too loose. Etc. Etc.

Plus I just love watching the shot develop.

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

> From: John Brinkman <brinkm...@gmail.com>
> Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

[Chris Bailey]

Awesome! Just ordered one :) Looks like a great way to learn. I'd
heard of the "crotchless" PF's, but hadn't had a chance to investigate
and see what they were, etc. Nifty. I have to say, this has been
really fun learning all about this. While I'm mildly frustrated at my
inability to consistently produce shots. But, when I do produce a
good shot, it's just so nice, and there is SO much more depth,
complexity, beauty, taste, and many other praise words, as compared to
my super-auto (Jura S9).

On 9/19/07, Ben McCafferty <b...@kbmc.net> wrote:
>

--
Chris Bailey
chris....@gmail.com

[jwor...@alaska.net]

When I tried to use my bottomless PF, I sprayed liquid all over the place.
Maybe that was because when I pull a shot my brew pressure is up to 12 Bar?

Allen
----- Original Message -----

From: "Ben McCafferty" <b...@kbmc.net>
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>

[Ben McCafferty]

I assume you're getting little jets of espresso shooting out at angles. If
so, that's yet another diagnosis from the bottomless--each of those jets are
from a pinhole, aka channeling in the puck. When you get the dose and tamp
right, that will not happen anymore. When I first got mine, I had to wash
the counter, the machine, and myself every day, because I had the same
result as you. Doesn't happen anymore, and I still use the bottomless for
every shot (just because I like to watch...don't tell my wife...)

tx,

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[Ben McCafferty]

Oops, sorry, forgot to speak to the 12 bar piece. I run at just over 9 bar,
so that could be contributing--I would assume that the higher pressure would
tend to exaggerate any problems. But not having run 12 bar myself, I can't
say for sure that the bottomless will behave with a proper dose and tamp.
Others out there?
tx,

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[Neil Atwood]

Just jumping in here on the question of the brew pressure...
I recall in the early days of the BII that the brew pressure gauge was not
well calibrated. Dunno if that has been fixed since, but thought it worth
mentioning in this context. If the gauges are still not being set up
properly, then the question of brew pressure is something of a moot point
unless it can be verified by a reference pressure gauge.

But I would echo Ben's comments on the spraying: proper grind, distribution
and tamp will go a long way to eliminating this. And you won't believe the
improvement in shot quality when you do! ;-)

Neil A.
Blue Mountains, Oz
http://minstrygrounds.net.au - A blog about selecting, roasting and drinking
fine coffee
__________________________

[Ben McCafferty]

Yeah, I've heard this too. I can say that mine goes consistently to one
needle width over 9 bar, but can't say whether it's truly 9 bar, or just the
same pressure each time.

bmc
"Faith will move mountains, but you'd better bring a shovel....."

[jwor...@alaska.net]

Thanks for this information Ben. I shall keep trying with the bottomless PF.

Yes, it was tiny jets of espresso coming at all angles from the bottom of
the PF.

[jwor...@alaska.net]

I need to take the cover off my machine so I can adjust the brew pressure
valve. I cannot do it through the hole in the right side of the front
chassis (seen only when you remove the waste tray). The valve is held in
place only by its copper tubing, not by any mounting to the chassis, so when
I put the blade of a flat screwdriver against the plastic or nylon
screw-head, the entire assembly just moves away. Also there is a
silver-colored wire, like a paper clip, adorned over the front of the white
screw-head. I am not sure what that is, but perhaps a stop to prevent the
screw from being turned out too far.

When I do a back flush with water the pressure goes up to about 14 bar. I
would like to adjust the screw so that the pressure during a back flush is
10 bar, and then maybe during a pour it will be 9 bar.

I rarely can run a shot in which the surface of the puck is perfectly smooth
and unpitted after the shot. In fact, I can judge the quality of my pour by
how much coffee grounds is left on the screen: the best pours leave almost
no grounds on the screen.

[Ben McCafferty]

I'll be interested to see what you find with the pressure adjustment.

Regarding the grounds on the screen, if I tamp a full basket, the dime test
is perfect. After pulling the shot, the grind has expanded and is
invariably in contact with the screen, so I'm not sure what that proves
exactly. I think having grind on the screen is normal, unless you use a
really small dose and it never reaches the screen to begin with?

Perhaps this has more to do with the proper grind and tamp, i.e. the puck
has more ability to stick together and not shed big layers on the screen?

Similar to what you are saying, I find that my best shots leave a slightly
elastic puck--it will actually bend around the bar in my knock box and stay
there until dry--whereas bad shots will tend to be this stratified, crumbly
mess when I knock them out, leaving lots of grind in the PF basket. The
nice pucks come right out and leave the PF almost totally clean.

Ah, the hairs we find to split...but the coffee sure is good...

In the automotive world, engineers speak of "the sum of unfavorable
tolerances"--for example, on my 1972 BMW R75/5 motorcycle, there is
noticeable slop in the driveline. There's a little bit in the engine, a
little more in the clutch disc, a bit more in the gears in the tranny, a bit
more in the output shaft, a bit more in the u-joints of the driveshaft, and
a bit more in the gears that turn the rear wheel. Add them all up, and they
equal a hell of a lot of slop, which is normal for the bike.

I say that we on this list are shooting for "the sum of FAVORABLE
tolerances"--by tweaking each variable towards perfection, we arrive at
espresso nirvana. Each time we say, "close enough," we're losing a bit of
the peak experience.

OK, maybe I've had one shot too many today. Not to mention too much
espresso.

bmc
"Don't believe everything you think....."

[John Brinkman]

I agree with Ren, I think that consistency of the amount of coffee and
the way that you level is key, if these aren't the same every time it
makes the setting of the grinder very difficult as you are aiming at a
moving target.

I personally over fill the basket slightly and then level of with my
finger N-S and back 2 times and then E-W and back 2 times, moving the
excess coffee across the portafilter each time to fill any crevices
and then wipe the excess off. This seems to fill in all holes nicely.

JohnB